Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

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BroJones
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by BroJones »

Bump.
bobhenstra wrote:
In my opinion, the Church here will be cleansed by earthquake, by famine, and by plague, pretty much in that order (Parable of the Ten Virgins).

Bob
After WW2, George Albert Smith was a regular visitor to our home in LaVerkin. He always came with the church architects to have dad go over plans for this building or that one because dad was extremely good at looking at blueprints and envisioning spatially what was being built, thus being able to see right off hand what many architects could not, even with their education. He was able to see if the building could even be built as drawn, and if not, what changes were needed to make it buildable.

On one of these trips, President Smith drove down in the limited edition Lincoln Continental convertible Henry Ford had given to Heber J. Grant as president of the church. While he was there, dad and the architects were in heads over coattails discussing the plans of a proposed temple, and the discussion got so involved that George Albert was lost, and so he invited my oldest brother, who was then 11 going on 12 to go for a ride with him. During that ride, President Smith interviewed my brother and gave him quite a priesthood worthiness interview. He then got after him for being more interested in getting all of his friends in town to notice the fact that he was riding in a Lincoln Continental convertible with the top down, than he was in conversing with a living prophet of God.

At that point, President Smith quite abruptly stopped and turned in the seat so that he was facing my brother and related to him what sounds basically like the same vision that Brother David Horne related. Everything that my brother wrote down in his journal (which he didn’t have until he got home, and told mother what had happened, and she got him a journal and had him write down all that Pres. Smith had told him).

Every thing that he wrote down correlates except that there is no mention of a Greek anything in the version my brother recorded. After reading “Dreams and Visions” and reading that vision as related by Bro. Horne, I asked my brother specifically if Pres. Smith had said anything about a Greek president being the key event to watch for, and he tells me that nothing like that was mentioned. He just said that it would be a president of different extraction than the normal northern European ancestry that we had had up to that point.

However, Pres. Smith did tell him to look specifically for the day when the American Dollar was so worthless that no other country would allow payment in dollars, for that would signal the beginning of such a severe depression that only LDS people who had their food supplies and clothing supplies and whatever they needed for heat and to cook with would be able to survive. Then he stopped for a moment as though he was going inside himself, and then said that there would be other survivors, but they would only survive because they were the honest in heart whom the Lord would miraculously bring to the Saints to teach and nurture, and that their survival would be something truly spiritual to those of us who were prepared for the calamities that would befall the LDS people who were not prepared, and the unprepared LDS would be affected the worst and die the more agonizing deaths because they had been warned, and yet rejected those warnings.

1. Weapons would be taken from the populace (advised to have weapons and ammo stashed where it would be unobservable but which could be gotten to in a moments notice)

2. Russia would appear to fall from it’s mighty position, but that would only be a ruse, because they would continue to only grow stronger because they would not have to support all of the poor countries they had taken over.

3. The US would give up it’s strategic power base, and become the scourge of the world because of the abuse of power they would leverage against all other lesser countries, and the other world powers would force the US to take their bombs out of Europe. (Doesn’t remember anything being said about whether bombs were nuclear or not)

4. Missiles would be hidden in grain silos – didn’t way anything about them being the buried silos we all know.
5. Nations would move huge battle tanks around to where they needed them on trucks that are bigger than any you have ever seen up till now (1949)

6. Then a terrible war would break out that would pit the powerful nations of the world against the US, and that the US would find out what it was like to have war waged in their backyards, and America would find out that WW2 had merely been a training exercise.

7. The worst time in the depression would look like a picnic in comparison.

He then reiterated to him that he needed to put away guns and ammo where it could not be confiscated so that he could protect his family until he could get them to one of the refuge’s that the Lord would provide his worthy Saints. After he got to the refuges he would not need those weapons, but that perhaps his children and grandchildren would to go fight for the constitution. He then quit talking, and refused to give any further clarifications.

After recording what he could remember, my brother felt like he had left something important out, and was concerned, so since Pres. Smith was still in residence, my brother went back to him and had him read what he had written. President Smith told him that he had all that needed to be recorded...

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bobhenstra
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by bobhenstra »

I think we as church members forget, at time we let our fears remove the facts from our mind that of the repentance the cleansing will cause, those who survive the cleansing will be only the penitent! The fact is that once the Church is cleansed it won't matter what comes our way, it'll be defeated! We will trust The Lord to fight our battles, as Gideon and his few followed the Lords instructions and stood in amazement as the Midianites destroyed one another. (That battle is in the O.T. Book of Judges, chapter 7) well worth the study, i.e. STUDY the battle, don't just read it!

That battle will be repeated, it's a type and shadow we should learn from, and allow it to belay our fears!!!

Bob

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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by Ratbag »

bobhenstra wrote:I think we as church members forget, at time we let our fears remove the facts from our mind that of the repentance the cleansing will cause, those who survive the cleansing will be only the penitent! The fact is that once the Church is cleansed it won't matter what comes our way, it'll be defeated! We will trust The Lord to fight our battles, as Gideon and his few followed the Lords instructions and stood in amazement as the Midianites destroyed one another. (That battle is in the O.T. Book of Judges, chapter 7) well worth the study, i.e. STUDY the battle, don't just read it!

That battle will be repeated, it's a type and shadow we should learn from, and allow it to belay our fears!!!

Bob
I've underlined a part that I want to elaborate on. The "penitent" also have faith and believe, truly believe in the power of the priesthood. These diseases that will cleanse the church will come on so rapidly that there won't be any effective distribution of medicine to save anyone but those who have the faith and belief to be healed.
43 And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food, and that not by the hand of an enemy.
44 And the elders of the church, two or more, shall be called, and shall pray for and lay their hands upon them in my name; and if they die they shall die unto me, and if they live they shall live unto me.
45 Thou shalt live together in love, insomuch that thou shalt weep for the loss of them that die, and more especially for those that have not hope of a glorious resurrection.
46 And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not taste of death, for it shall be sweet unto them;
47 And they that die not in me, wo unto them, for their death is bitter.
48 And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed.
49 He who hath faith to see shall see.
50 He who hath faith to hear shall hear.
51 The lame who hath faith to leap shall leap.
52 And they who have not faith to do these things, but believe in me, have power to become my sons; and inasmuch as they break not my laws thou shalt bear their infirmities.
(Doctrine and Covenants 42:43–52)
Remember back to the child possessed by a devil, which the apostles could not cast out. They couldn't understand why the devil would not obey their command to depart and asked the Savior why.
And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
(Matthew 17:18–20)
The apostles saw with their own eyes the power of the Savior, yet they still clung to their worldly wisdom and beliefs. Their unbelief kept them from performing this miracle. This is the same reason why the vast majority of LDS will be cleansed from the church. They may be good, hard working, temple attending Latter-day Saints, yet their belief in the wisdom of the world and their unbelief in the power of God will be the cause of them being cleansed.

A couple days ago, I read an article that said that 41% of LDS didn't believe in Satan, that he was more of a symbol for evil rather than an actual being. The single most clever thing Satan has done is to convince the world that he really doesn't exist. For the Latter-day Saints, he has convinced them that he really only "influences" them. He doesn't afflict them will illnesses nor does he or his minions actually possess people. I've read some really crazy things that people believe on BYU's 100 Hour Forum regarding possession and the ability of evil spirits to afflict people. It's obvious that these students don't do any research into this.

If you don't believe in the power of the priesthood and have faith to be healed, you can forget surviving the cleansing.

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bobhenstra
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by bobhenstra »

And why would it be such a bad thing if we do not survive the cleansing? Might we have further purpose in the Spirit World, or not?

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Robin Hood
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by Robin Hood »

DrJones wrote:On another thread, OriginalIntent and I started a discussion of the prophecy of President George Albert Smith. I think this prophecy is worth considering. There are a few accounts out there, evidently. The following I rec'd recently by email from a member of our ward -- sorry I don't have much of a reference on it, but perhaps others can help with that. As with any statement not officially sanctioned by the Church, I think we should exercise prayer and caution when pondering this. It might have something of value to YOU as you ponder and pray, in the context of the scriptural canon.
My father was one of the three men who started the church’s “Road Show” drama program in the early years of the 20th century. Through that exposure to church leadership, he formed many lasting relationships which lasted all of his life. He eventually graduated from college with a masters degree, which is now equivalent to roughly PhD, and was widely used in the church’s building program, designing and building the first few church canneries. After his first wife died from what is just a minor medical problem these days, he went south to become the superintendent over the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) program that was started during the depression to provide a jobs program for the destitute out of work men who comprised over one third of the workforce. His gang built the Zion’s Park tunnels, and the bridge over the Virgin River between Hurricane and LaVerkin, UT, and then he left to work building projects for the church again. The canneries in Hurricane, Kanab, St George, and several others I will decline to mention in the interest of brevity. During his CCC days he married my mother and they began their family. I only bring this history here to AVOW because it lays the foundation for what subsequently happened.

After WW2, George Albert Smith was a regular visitor to our home in LaVerkin.
He always came with the church architects to have dad go over plans for this building or that one because dad was extremely good at looking at blueprints and envisioning spatially what was being built, thus being able to see right off hand what many architects could not, even with their education. He was able to see if the building could even be built as drawn, and if not, what changes were needed to make it buildable.

On one of these trips, President Smith drove down in the limited edition Lincoln Continental convertible Henry Ford had given to Heber J. Grant as president of the church. While he was there, dad and the architects were in heads over coattails discussing the plans of a proposed temple, and the discussion got so involved that George Albert was lost, and so he invited my oldest brother, who was then 11 going on 12 to go for a ride with him. During that ride, President Smith interviewed my brother and gave him quite a priesthood worthiness interview. He then got after him for being more interested in getting all of his friends in town to notice the fact that he was riding in a Lincoln Continental convertible with the top down, than he was in conversing with a living prophet of God.

At that point, President Smith quite abruptly stopped and turned in the seat so that he was facing my brother and related to him what sounds basically like the same vision that Brother David Horne related. Everything that my brother wrote down in his journal (which he didn’t have until he got home, and told mother what had happened, and she got him a journal and had him write down all that Pres. Smith had told him).

Every thing that he wrote down correlates except that there is no mention of a Greek anything in the version my brother recorded. After reading “Dreams and Visions” and reading that vision as related by Bro. Horne, I asked my brother specifically if Pres. Smith had said anything about a Greek president being the key event to watch for, and he tells me that nothing like that was mentioned. He just said that it would be a president of different extraction than the normal northern European ancestry that we had had up to that point.

However, Pres. Smith did tell him to look specifically for the day when the American Dollar was so worthless that no other country would allow payment in dollars, for that would signal the beginning of such a severe depression that only LDS people who had their food supplies and clothing supplies and whatever they needed for heat and to cook with would be able to survive. Then he stopped for a moment as though he was going inside himself, and then said that there would be other survivors, but they would only survive because they were the honest in heart whom the Lord would miraculously bring to the Saints to teach and nurture, and that their survival would be something truly spiritual to those of us who were prepared for the calamities that would befall the LDS people who were not prepared, and the unprepared LDS would be affected the worst and die the more agonizing deaths because they had been warned, and yet rejected those warnings.

1. Weapons would be taken from the populace (advised to have weapons and ammo stashed where it would be unobservable but which could be gotten to in a moments notice)

2. Russia would appear to fall from it’s mighty position, but that would only be a ruse, because they would continue to only grow stronger
because they would not have to support all of the poor countries they had taken over.

3. The US would give up it’s strategic power base, and become the scourge of the world because of the abuse of power they would leverage against all other lesser countries, and the other world powers would force the US to take their bombs out of Europe. (Doesn’t remember anything being said about whether bombs were nuclear or not)

4. Missiles would be hidden in grain silos – didn’t way anything about them being the buried silos we all know.

5. Nations would move huge battle tanks around to where they needed them on trucks that are bigger than any you have ever seen up till now (1949)

6. Then a terrible war would break out that would pit the powerful nations of the world against the US, and that the US would find out what it was like to have war waged in their backyards, and America would find out that WW2 had merely been a training exercise.

7. The worst time in the depression would look like a picnic in comparison.

He then reiterated to him that he needed to put away guns and ammo where it could not be confiscated so that he could protect his family until he could get them to one of the refuge’s that the Lord would provide his worthy Saints. After he got to the refuges he would not need those weapons, but that perhaps his children and grandchildren would to go fight for the constitution. He then quit talking, and refused to give any further clarifications.

After recording what he could remember, my brother felt like he had left something important out, and was concerned, so since Pres. Smith was still in residence, my brother went back to him and had him read what he had written. President Smith told him that he had all that needed to be recorded, and that he now felt he had overstepped his bounds in telling my brother all that he had, and prayed that the Lord would forgive him, and that my brother should only record and tell his family the elements that needed to be kept sacred in his journal.

And an 11 year old boy remembered this? Sorry, doesn't fly.
Eleven year old boys don't remember stuff like this with this amount of detail.
I believe this is just another one of those Mormon myths.

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pollibird
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by pollibird »

[/quote]And an 11 year old boy remembered this? Sorry, doesn't fly.
Eleven year old boys don't remember stuff like this with this amount of detail.
I believe this is just another one of those Mormon myths.[/quote]


Possibly true. But it could still fly.
The boy could have left out much detail as it is.
We may only be left with this fragment.

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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by Benjamin_LK »

Ratbag wrote:
bobhenstra wrote:I think we as church members forget, at time we let our fears remove the facts from our mind that of the repentance the cleansing will cause, those who survive the cleansing will be only the penitent! The fact is that once the Church is cleansed it won't matter what comes our way, it'll be defeated! We will trust The Lord to fight our battles, as Gideon and his few followed the Lords instructions and stood in amazement as the Midianites destroyed one another. (That battle is in the O.T. Book of Judges, chapter 7) well worth the study, i.e. STUDY the battle, don't just read it!

That battle will be repeated, it's a type and shadow we should learn from, and allow it to belay our fears!!!

Bob
I've underlined a part that I want to elaborate on. The "penitent" also have faith and believe, truly believe in the power of the priesthood. These diseases that will cleanse the church will come on so rapidly that there won't be any effective distribution of medicine to save anyone but those who have the faith and belief to be healed.
43 And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food, and that not by the hand of an enemy.
44 And the elders of the church, two or more, shall be called, and shall pray for and lay their hands upon them in my name; and if they die they shall die unto me, and if they live they shall live unto me.
45 Thou shalt live together in love, insomuch that thou shalt weep for the loss of them that die, and more especially for those that have not hope of a glorious resurrection.
46 And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not taste of death, for it shall be sweet unto them;
47 And they that die not in me, wo unto them, for their death is bitter.
48 And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed.
49 He who hath faith to see shall see.
50 He who hath faith to hear shall hear.
51 The lame who hath faith to leap shall leap.
52 And they who have not faith to do these things, but believe in me, have power to become my sons; and inasmuch as they break not my laws thou shalt bear their infirmities.
(Doctrine and Covenants 42:43–52)
Remember back to the child possessed by a devil, which the apostles could not cast out. They couldn't understand why the devil would not obey their command to depart and asked the Savior why.
And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
(Matthew 17:18–20)
The apostles saw with their own eyes the power of the Savior, yet they still clung to their worldly wisdom and beliefs. Their unbelief kept them from performing this miracle. This is the same reason why the vast majority of LDS will be cleansed from the church. They may be good, hard working, temple attending Latter-day Saints, yet their belief in the wisdom of the world and their unbelief in the power of God will be the cause of them being cleansed.

A couple days ago, I read an article that said that 41% of LDS didn't believe in Satan, that he was more of a symbol for evil rather than an actual being. The single most clever thing Satan has done is to convince the world that he really doesn't exist. For the Latter-day Saints, he has convinced them that he really only "influences" them. He doesn't afflict them will illnesses nor does he or his minions actually possess people. I've read some really crazy things that people believe on BYU's 100 Hour Forum regarding possession and the ability of evil spirits to afflict people. It's obvious that these students don't do any research into this.

If you don't believe in the power of the priesthood and have faith to be healed, you can forget surviving the cleansing.
It's also possible that those without sufficient faith will be as the parable of the sower: Fall away and join the very enemies of the church. As I have come to learn there are degrees of wickedness on the Earth, the most extreme of which is not common or blatantly operating without opposition currently.

1) The Norm (sinner, like the rest of us)
2) Proud Sinner (Someone who glorifies in their own sins, not everyone does this)
3) Flaunting (Someone who makes a hobby of writing anti-church material)
4) Thorn (Someone who makes a hobby of harrassing openly church members)
5) Someone who may have attacked/vandalized meetinghouses of church members, possibly committed a church member's murder
6) The state of engaging in a crusade to globally or nationally annihilate the church, without much of a care as to whether or not it involves bloodshed.

Thankfully, #5 is rare, and a lot of the vandalism is done using the cover of night, or murders done with an insanity excuse in court. Important not to encourage paranoia right now amongst the members of the church.

But you bring a decent point along. Yes, whether or not there really is the Almighty God guiding and directing this church is the issue that will easily split the wheat from the tares. Plenty of the people like the OW group seem to, though most likely unknowingly or without admission, not believe this to be true.

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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by Benjamin_LK »

TZONE wrote:Im dead center SLC valley. I just hope its "quick" all at once to get it over with! Yea I think your right about water.

Water crisis everywhere but the mountains. =))
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=28231

Though the visions do show the water being plagued, so there better be fresh springs somewhere.
Remember not to underestimate what can be done through the priesthood. I personally feel that if I have made the honest effort to have that water storage, that through the priesthood, God could cleanse even plague ridden water, or even cleanse people of the plague. It's just important not to succumb to the fear of those mocking you from the Great and Spacious building, and forget that miracles are still very much possible among those with faith.

-Ben

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uglypitbull
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by uglypitbull »

Benjamin_LK wrote:It's just important not to succumb to the fear of those mocking you from the Great and Spacious building
Amen!

Ratbag
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by Ratbag »

Benjamin_LK wrote: It's also possible that those without sufficient faith will be as the parable of the sower: Fall away and join the very enemies of the church. As I have come to learn there are degrees of wickedness on the Earth, the most extreme of which is not common or blatantly operating without opposition currently.

1) The Norm (sinner, like the rest of us)
2) Proud Sinner (Someone who glorifies in their own sins, not everyone does this)
3) Flaunting (Someone who makes a hobby of writing anti-church material)
4) Thorn (Someone who makes a hobby of harrassing openly church members)
5) Someone who may have attacked/vandalized meetinghouses of church members, possibly committed a church member's murder
6) The state of engaging in a crusade to globally or nationally annihilate the church, without much of a care as to whether or not it involves bloodshed.

Thankfully, #5 is rare, and a lot of the vandalism is done using the cover of night, or murders done with an insanity excuse in court. Important not to encourage paranoia right now amongst the members of the church.

But you bring a decent point along. Yes, whether or not there really is the Almighty God guiding and directing this church is the issue that will easily split the wheat from the tares. Plenty of the people like the OW group seem to, though most likely unknowingly or without admission, not believe this to be true.
I can see several of #2, #3 and a couple of #4 right here on this forum and on a few other LDS related forums I've visited. The one's who had someone say something they didn't like at church and now have an axe to grind. Those who's pride won't let them forgive the idiots at church who have their heads up their fifth point of contact. If I were to leave the church or have an axe to grind every time some moron at church said or did something that was offensive, I'd have left the church a couple dozen times over and my axe collection would be very sharp and fill a warehouse.

I had a bishop who didn't like me and another member accused me of a serious crime. The member "thought" he'd heard me say some things about committing criminal acts and the bishop blew it out of proportion. I realize he had a duty to talk me to about this type of accusation, but he didn't like me to begin with. If there was any time I would have had an axe to grind, it would have been then.

My dad taught me and I gained my own testimony that the church is true, but the people and some of the local leaders aren't always the same. I don't go to church for socialization or to pay any attention to those with rectal cranial inversion including bishops who obviously should not have that position. I go because I want to be there and because I need to be there.

OCDMOM
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by OCDMOM »

So, I was wondering about the GAS and the talk of elections. I looked up the David Horne letter.
It doesn't say anything about elections. Someone left a link that talks about that
but it doesn't work anymore.

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francisco.colaco
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by francisco.colaco »

Robin Hood,

Please reread the last paragraph of the account. Notes were taken by a 17 year old boy and Pres. Smith reviewed and approved them.

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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by BroJones »

bump

freedomforall
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by freedomforall »

patriotsaint wrote:True it may not have been part of the original prophecy, but it seems like a random element to add in if it wasn't. I mean really, if you were doctoring a prophecy would pick greek out of all the pedigrees in the world? Who knows, maybe the greek part was added by someone in an attempt to discredit President Smith?
A thread being resurrected.

My wife tells me that the word "greek" at that time meant "black" So a black man would be POTUS Perhaps this has already been brought out but, hey, I just wanted to pass this along anyway.

Without going clear through the whole thread, please, where is the complete unabridged revelation/vision to be found either here or elsewhere on the net?

EDIT: never mind I found it. Thanks anywho.
Last edited by freedomforall on June 5th, 2015, 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by freedomforall »

http://visionsandtribulation.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.abysmal.com/product/DV-II.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David Hughes Horne, P.E.; Chemical Engineer
http://woodyoubelieveit.blogspot.com/20 ... lbert.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

An excerpt:

Then Pres. Smith said, "I have had a troublesome vision of another great and terrible war that made the war just ended look like a training exercise World War II and people died like flies. It began at a time when the Soviet Union's military might dwarfed that of the United States, and we [that is, the United States] would have missiles in Europe that carried an atomic bomb. I saw the United States withdraw its missiles to appease the Soviet Union, and then the war began." He also said that we would have big missiles in deep holes he described like grain silos which the Soviets would try to destroy with their own missiles. They would hit military installations and some cities also. He said that the president at that time would be of Greek extraction.

A Closer look at Pres. George Albert Smith's Vision of World War 3.
http://lastdaysigns.blogspot.com/2012/0 ... lbert.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://findingaid.lib.byu.edu/viewItem/MSS%206105" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Sirocco
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by Sirocco »

Robin Hood wrote:
DrJones wrote:On another thread, OriginalIntent and I started a discussion of the prophecy of President George Albert Smith. I think this prophecy is worth considering. There are a few accounts out there, evidently. The following I rec'd recently by email from a member of our ward -- sorry I don't have much of a reference on it, but perhaps others can help with that. As with any statement not officially sanctioned by the Church, I think we should exercise prayer and caution when pondering this. It might have something of value to YOU as you ponder and pray, in the context of the scriptural canon.
My father was one of the three men who started the church’s “Road Show” drama program in the early years of the 20th century. Through that exposure to church leadership, he formed many lasting relationships which lasted all of his life. He eventually graduated from college with a masters degree, which is now equivalent to roughly PhD, and was widely used in the church’s building program, designing and building the first few church canneries. After his first wife died from what is just a minor medical problem these days, he went south to become the superintendent over the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) program that was started during the depression to provide a jobs program for the destitute out of work men who comprised over one third of the workforce. His gang built the Zion’s Park tunnels, and the bridge over the Virgin River between Hurricane and LaVerkin, UT, and then he left to work building projects for the church again. The canneries in Hurricane, Kanab, St George, and several others I will decline to mention in the interest of brevity. During his CCC days he married my mother and they began their family. I only bring this history here to AVOW because it lays the foundation for what subsequently happened.

After WW2, George Albert Smith was a regular visitor to our home in LaVerkin.
He always came with the church architects to have dad go over plans for this building or that one because dad was extremely good at looking at blueprints and envisioning spatially what was being built, thus being able to see right off hand what many architects could not, even with their education. He was able to see if the building could even be built as drawn, and if not, what changes were needed to make it buildable.

On one of these trips, President Smith drove down in the limited edition Lincoln Continental convertible Henry Ford had given to Heber J. Grant as president of the church. While he was there, dad and the architects were in heads over coattails discussing the plans of a proposed temple, and the discussion got so involved that George Albert was lost, and so he invited my oldest brother, who was then 11 going on 12 to go for a ride with him. During that ride, President Smith interviewed my brother and gave him quite a priesthood worthiness interview. He then got after him for being more interested in getting all of his friends in town to notice the fact that he was riding in a Lincoln Continental convertible with the top down, than he was in conversing with a living prophet of God.

At that point, President Smith quite abruptly stopped and turned in the seat so that he was facing my brother and related to him what sounds basically like the same vision that Brother David Horne related. Everything that my brother wrote down in his journal (which he didn’t have until he got home, and told mother what had happened, and she got him a journal and had him write down all that Pres. Smith had told him).

Every thing that he wrote down correlates except that there is no mention of a Greek anything in the version my brother recorded. After reading “Dreams and Visions” and reading that vision as related by Bro. Horne, I asked my brother specifically if Pres. Smith had said anything about a Greek president being the key event to watch for, and he tells me that nothing like that was mentioned. He just said that it would be a president of different extraction than the normal northern European ancestry that we had had up to that point.

However, Pres. Smith did tell him to look specifically for the day when the American Dollar was so worthless that no other country would allow payment in dollars, for that would signal the beginning of such a severe depression that only LDS people who had their food supplies and clothing supplies and whatever they needed for heat and to cook with would be able to survive. Then he stopped for a moment as though he was going inside himself, and then said that there would be other survivors, but they would only survive because they were the honest in heart whom the Lord would miraculously bring to the Saints to teach and nurture, and that their survival would be something truly spiritual to those of us who were prepared for the calamities that would befall the LDS people who were not prepared, and the unprepared LDS would be affected the worst and die the more agonizing deaths because they had been warned, and yet rejected those warnings.

1. Weapons would be taken from the populace (advised to have weapons and ammo stashed where it would be unobservable but which could be gotten to in a moments notice)

2. Russia would appear to fall from it’s mighty position, but that would only be a ruse, because they would continue to only grow stronger
because they would not have to support all of the poor countries they had taken over.

3. The US would give up it’s strategic power base, and become the scourge of the world because of the abuse of power they would leverage against all other lesser countries, and the other world powers would force the US to take their bombs out of Europe. (Doesn’t remember anything being said about whether bombs were nuclear or not)

4. Missiles would be hidden in grain silos – didn’t way anything about them being the buried silos we all know.

5. Nations would move huge battle tanks around to where they needed them on trucks that are bigger than any you have ever seen up till now (1949)

6. Then a terrible war would break out that would pit the powerful nations of the world against the US, and that the US would find out what it was like to have war waged in their backyards, and America would find out that WW2 had merely been a training exercise.

7. The worst time in the depression would look like a picnic in comparison.

He then reiterated to him that he needed to put away guns and ammo where it could not be confiscated so that he could protect his family until he could get them to one of the refuge’s that the Lord would provide his worthy Saints. After he got to the refuges he would not need those weapons, but that perhaps his children and grandchildren would to go fight for the constitution. He then quit talking, and refused to give any further clarifications.

After recording what he could remember, my brother felt like he had left something important out, and was concerned, so since Pres. Smith was still in residence, my brother went back to him and had him read what he had written. President Smith told him that he had all that needed to be recorded, and that he now felt he had overstepped his bounds in telling my brother all that he had, and prayed that the Lord would forgive him, and that my brother should only record and tell his family the elements that needed to be kept sacred in his journal.

And an 11 year old boy remembered this? Sorry, doesn't fly.
Eleven year old boys don't remember stuff like this with this amount of detail.
I believe this is just another one of those Mormon myths.
I remember I would have.
And I know how I would have recorded it (the elaborated on it) too...
But I'm a bit of a special case and "normies" generally can't do that.

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5247

Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by Silver »

My first post! Just joined 3 minutes ago after reading for a while.

Any updates to the likelihood that this prophecy will be fulfilled at the end of next year? Like right after America has elected its first female POTUS?

Onsdag
captain of 100
Posts: 798

Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by Onsdag »

My father was one of the three men who started the church’s “Road Show” drama program in the early years of the 20th century. Through that exposure to church leadership, he formed many lasting relationships which lasted all of his life. He eventually graduated from college with a masters degree, which is now equivalent to roughly PhD, and was widely used in the church’s building program, designing and building the first few church canneries. After his first wife died from what is just a minor medical problem these days, he went south to become the superintendent over the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) program that was started during the depression to provide a jobs program for the destitute out of work men who comprised over one third of the workforce. His gang built the Zion’s Park tunnels, and the bridge over the Virgin River between Hurricane and LaVerkin, UT, and then he left to work building projects for the church again. The canneries in Hurricane, Kanab, St George, and several others I will decline to mention in the interest of brevity. During his CCC days he married my mother and they began their family. I only bring this history here to AVOW because it lays the foundation for what subsequently happened.

After WW2, George Albert Smith was a regular visitor to our home in LaVerkin. He always came with the church architects to have dad go over plans for this building or that one because dad was extremely good at looking at blueprints and envisioning spatially what was being built, thus being able to see right off hand what many architects could not, even with their education. He was able to see if the building could even be built as drawn, and if not, what changes were needed to make it buildable.

On one of these trips, President Smith drove down in the limited edition Lincoln Continental convertible Henry Ford had given to Heber J. Grant as president of the church. While he was there, dad and the architects were in heads over coattails discussing the plans of a proposed temple, and the discussion got so involved that George Albert was lost, and so he invited my oldest brother, who was then 11 going on 12 to go for a ride with him. During that ride, President Smith interviewed my brother and gave him quite a priesthood worthiness interview. He then got after him for being more interested in getting all of his friends in town to notice the fact that he was riding in a Lincoln Continental convertible with the top down, than he was in conversing with a living prophet of God.

At that point, President Smith quite abruptly stopped and turned in the seat so that he was facing my brother and related to him what sounds basically like the same vision that Brother David Horne related. Everything that my brother wrote down in his journal (which he didn’t have until he got home, and told mother what had happened, and she got him a journal and had him write down all that Pres. Smith had told him).

Every thing that he wrote down correlates except that there is no mention of a Greek anything in the version my brother recorded. After reading “Dreams and Visions” and reading that vision as related by Bro. Horne, I asked my brother specifically if Pres. Smith had said anything about a Greek president being the key event to watch for, and he tells me that nothing like that was mentioned. He just said that it would be a president of different extraction than the normal northern European ancestry that we had had up to that point.

However, Pres. Smith did tell him to look specifically for the day when the American Dollar was so worthless that no other country would allow payment in dollars, for that would signal the beginning of such a severe depression that only LDS people who had their food supplies and clothing supplies and whatever they needed for heat and to cook with would be able to survive. Then he stopped for a moment as though he was going inside himself, and then said that there would be other survivors, but they would only survive because they were the honest in heart whom the Lord would miraculously bring to the Saints to teach and nurture, and that their survival would be something truly spiritual to those of us who were prepared for the calamities that would befall the LDS people who were not prepared, and the unprepared LDS would be affected the worst and die the more agonizing deaths because they had been warned, and yet rejected those warnings.

1. Weapons would be taken from the populace (advised to have weapons and ammo stashed where it would be unobservable but which could be gotten to in a moments notice)

2. Russia would appear to fall from it’s mighty position, but that would only be a ruse, because they would continue to only grow stronger because they would not have to support all of the poor countries they had taken over.

3. The US would give up it’s strategic power base, and become the scourge of the world because of the abuse of power they would leverage against all other lesser countries, and the other world powers would force the US to take their bombs out of Europe. (Doesn’t remember anything being said about whether bombs were nuclear or not)

4. Missiles would be hidden in grain silos – didn’t way anything about them being the buried silos we all know.

5. Nations would move huge battle tanks around to where they needed them on trucks that are bigger than any you have ever seen up till now (1949)

6. Then a terrible war would break out that would pit the powerful nations of the world against the US, and that the US would find out what it was like to have war waged in their backyards, and America would find out that WW2 had merely been a training exercise.

7. The worst time in the depression would look like a picnic in comparison.

He then reiterated to him that he needed to put away guns and ammo where it could not be confiscated so that he could protect his family until he could get them to one of the refuge’s that the Lord would provide his worthy Saints. After he got to the refuges he would not need those weapons, but that perhaps his children and grandchildren would to go fight for the constitution. He then quit talking, and refused to give any further clarifications.

After recording what he could remember, my brother felt like he had left something important out, and was concerned, so since Pres. Smith was still in residence, my brother went back to him and had him read what he had written. President Smith told him that he had all that needed to be recorded, and that he now felt he had overstepped his bounds in telling my brother all that he had, and prayed that the Lord would forgive him, and that my brother should only record and tell his family the elements that needed to be kept sacred in his journal.
Onsdag wrote:
As with any statement not officially sanctioned by the Church, I think we should exercise prayer and caution when pondering this.
I agree with this statement. While I am personally inclined to believe the David Horne account is genuine, I do have some hesitations in accepting this account. I'm not saying that it's not genuine, just be careful...

This account was originally written and posted on LDSAVOW, by someone with the username "Copenhagen," but it was quickly removed by the author within days (possibly hours?) of being posted. There is a reason why it was removed. As far as I know the author has not published, or allowed this account to be published, elsewhere or since then.

I am personally acquainted with "Copenhagen" and have talked with this person privately about this account. I am uncertain as of yet as to whether it is a genuine account or not. I hesitate to say more as this may not be the best time or place. Just to reiterate - I am not saying this is or isn't genuine, but please be cautious.
This past week Henry Dee (H.D.) Fuller passed away. The above account, written by Ross Kevin Fuller (aka "Copenhagen" from AVOW) was about an alleged event that happened between his brother H.D. Fuller and George Albert Smith. I had intended to try and talking to H.D. personally about the account to try verifying it, but alas with his passing this will no longer be possible.

Some of the details from the above account are verifiable, such as their parents, Luther Carlos Fuller and Rosalba Gubler Fuller, did indeed live in LaVerkin and Luther did help start the program which eventually became the Church's "Road Show":
Drama took on new life in the 1930’s when Luther Fuller and his wife, Rosalba (Gubler) became residents. Luther was talented, strict, and kind. Under his direction, actors gave professional performances. He and Rosalba could build and paint any required backdrop. Productions were taken to neighboring towns of course.

http://www.laverkin.org/history/essay-w ... ll/page-4/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
However, from my research, including talking with and interviewing Kevin and other family members, other parts and details of the story seem of questionable authenticity. For example, I have learned from one familial source that though George Albert Smith did visit the area on occasion, in particular to dedicate the Bishop's Storehouse in Hurricane in the Spring of 1948 (about the time the above story would have allegedly taken place), he never was "a regular visitor to our home in LaVerkin." Note though that the linked news article does mention that the building of the Bishop's Storehouse was "supervised by Luther Fuller of LaVerkin," further validation of his architectural skills and possible validation that he may have frequently visited with Church authorities as described in the story. Still, the fact that one of the family members has indicated that G.A.S. had never been a visitor to their home as the story claims is problematic. Furthermore, several family members had never heard of this story before when questioned about it. They had never heard either H.D. or Kevin talk of it, which begs the question - if it did happen, and was of such great import, then why had it never been shared before? Perhaps it was sacred and personal, and meant only for H.D.? Yet David Horne shared his account freely and openly to all of his family and anyone and everyone else.

There are other concerns, but until I can do further research to either validate or disprove them then I will not publish them. Right now I'm still on the fence about this one. Some things seem true and are verifiable, but yet some things seem questionable and unverifiable. It's just too bad that H.D. passed away before I could ever talk to him about this account, as it was HIS story and therefore would have been a first hand account. Now there are only second hand accounts from other family members... If only I could get my hands on that journal (highly unlikely) :(

Onsdag
captain of 100
Posts: 798

Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by Onsdag »

Update: Yesterday I went and personally visited with Jane Rae (Fuller) Topham, older sister of Henry Dee (H.D.) and Kevin Fuller, and read to her and talked with her of this account written by her brother. She was very gracious, warm, and took the time to listen to the story and share her thoughts even though she was entertaining other family for dinner at the time. She has given me permission to share the things she has related to me in regards to this account.

I first read her the account written by Kevin as is found earlier in this thread, and she listened quietly and attentively through it all, and then afterwards she shared her thoughts on it. I did not inform her of any of my previous findings until after she had shared her thoughts. I have included the main points which I have learned from our discussion into the following list:
  • She is 15 months older than Dee
  • She had never heard this story (from H.D., Kevin, or anyone else) before.
  • Jane did verify that Luther was an architect, and that he indeed was very gifted and helped start the Church's "Road Show" program. In fact, as I visited with Jane, her own family was still continuing the legacy and having their very own talent show in the other room and grandchildren could be heard playing the piano and singing.
  • The only time she remembers George Albert Smith coming to the area was when he came to dedicate the Bishop's Storehouse in Hurricane.
  • She remembers G.A.S., as with all General Authorities, being very busy and only having time to come, dedicate the building, and then leave, though she does remember with fondness being able to shake his hand at that time.
  • She never remembers George Albert Smith visiting or staying with them in their home, though she did remember another Church leader (I didn't catch the name clearly, though it seemed unfamiliar to me) having stayed with them a couple of times. She felt that had G.A.S. stayed in the area it would have likely been with the Stake President.
  • She mentioned that Dee's mind began slipping in his older years before his passing and was prone to mixing up his stories.
  • She didn't seem much surprised with Kevin's story and said, as best as I can recall, "Kevin is a gifted writer, if only he would tell the truth."
  • When asked if there was any merit to the story she said it was a "fanciful tale" and sounded to her as if Kevin had taken bits and pieces from other prophecies and embellished on them to make this story. Her recommendation - "give it no heed."
My impression of Jane was of a very bright, intelligent, truthful, loving, and gracious woman. It was clear to me that she is very family-oriented and loving, and even though she had a large family around for dinner and entertainment she took the time to listen and share with me her thoughts concerning this story. Furthermore, even though she thought the story to be false and nothing but a "fanciful tale," I could see and feel the love she had for her brothers in her words and her expressions.

Here are some other thoughts and considerations I have had in regard to this story:

As I read the account to Jane I noticed the date Kevin had included in the story, "5. Nations would move huge battle tanks around to where they needed them on trucks that are bigger than any you have ever seen up till now (1949)." I didn't insert that date, that is the date which Kevin interjected. There is a problem with that date - firstly, the only record I have been able to produce and verify of George Albert Smith being in the area of LaVerkin was the date of the dedication of the Bishop's Storehouse in Hurricane, being March 19-20, 1948. Secondly, H.D. Fuller was born Nov. 25, 1936, and the story claims that he was "11 going on 12" which only could have happened between the dates of Nov. 25, of 1947 and 1948. If Kevin's date of 1949 is correct then Dee would have been 12 going on 13. If there is truth to the story then I suspect Kevin may have mixed up his dates.

The story was first published on AVOW (I don't know exactly when as I no longer have a subscription and therefore can't check), but shortly thereafter to this site in early 2011. Two important things were going on around that time which, I believe, may have influenced the author to write and publish it when and where he did. Firstly was that the 2012 Presidential Elections were getting underway, or would be soon, and there was a lot of discussion and speculation going on AVOW as to whether Obama was the key president spoken of in George Albert Smith's prophecy as written by David Horne. Secondly, and in relation to the first, there began to be speculation and debate about the "greek" part of David Horne's account and someone somewhere started the theory/rumor that back in the days when G.A.S. would have used that word it was a term that was often used in place of a more pejorative term used to describe a black person. Knowing what I know of Kevin and his feelings toward Obama, I feel that he may have jumped on these two things and, with a desire to give added credibility to David Horne's account, made up his own. You can get the slightest sense of this from the quote:
Every thing that he wrote down correlates except that there is no mention of a Greek anything in the version my brother recorded. After reading “Dreams and Visions” and reading that vision as related by Bro. Horne, I asked my brother specifically if Pres. Smith had said anything about a Greek president being the key event to watch for, and he tells me that nothing like that was mentioned. He just said that it would be a president of different extraction than the normal northern European ancestry that we had had up to that point.
Someone has asked me concerning Kevin's integrity. There are those who are nearest to him who often question that very thing. Sometimes when I have questioned different family members on various stories I have heard they will roll their eyes and say something to the effect that "he's pulling your leg again." There have been times when he'd be telling me something and I think incredulously "did that just come out of your mouth?" Some times he has told me things which I know to be false. Yet, at the same time, some of the things he has told me which I at first thought were false, after further investigating and research have proven to be true.

When Kevin first posted the above article to AVOW I missed it before it was deleted. The thread was still there and I could gather from the responses that he had posted a second G.A.S. account that was similar to David Horne's. I then searched and found it had been reposted to this forum. After reading it here I approached Kevin and said something like "Hey, I just came across a thread on AVOW where you had posted an account similar to David Horne's, but it had been deleted. Can you tell me about it?" He wasn't aware, and I didn't inform him at that time, that it had been reposted elsewhere and that I had already read it. I just wanted to compare the story as he told it to me with what I had read. Without looking it up, reading it, or anything else, he proceeded to tell me the story from start to finish just as it is found here. I thought, the only way he could do that was if it truly did happen the way he described, or, if he had spent the time in committing it to memory.

There were some things that he shared with me during that interview though, and which I learned later which have caused me concern. Primarily here are my concerns:

1. The focus on guns and ammo. As Kevin shared with me his story he seemed to really focus on the importance of getting guns and ammo. As you can read from the story it is the very first point that is brought up, and then later is again re-emphasized.

2. His focus on Obama's race. As Kevin got to the part about the "greek" president I was rather shocked and uncomfortable with the vitriol and anger that he began to express not only towards Obama, but to all black people. I was rather aghast and heartbroken at his feelings and what he was sharing with me as I have a completely different view and have many good friends who are of a different ethnicity.

3. The Journal. When I asked Kevin about H.D.'s journal, and if I could read it, he said that he no longer had it. He claimed that H.D. had given it to him to read through and that the account in question was actually drawn in pictures and that he (Kevin) had "interpreted" the pictures into the above story, which he then shared with H.D. and was told that he had gotten it right. After writing this story Kevin then gave the journal back to H.D. I was completely dumbstruck when I heard this and wondered if I had even heard it right. I didn't want to seem completely incredulous but asked if there was a way for Kevin to borrow the journal again so I could see it for myself. He assured me he couldn't. This has been a big red flag for me. If I indeed heard it right then why would H.D. "draw" this experience in pictures instead of using words? Well, from all indications he was gifted with visual things - being able to envision buildings spatially and to be a good architect, maybe that is just the way his young mind worked? And then too, how could Kevin come up with this story and write it down based solely upon his own "interpretation" of Dee's drawings? Well, he says he verified it with H.D. so...

4. Why he deleted it. Unfortunately I can't verify the reason given on AVOW why the story was removed since I don't have access to AVOW at this time, but I do recall that it was different than what Kevin (aka "Copenhagen" on AVOW) explained to me personally. Kevin told me that H.D. had given him permission to share it and that's why he did, but later, when H.D. found out that he had shared it on AVOW he was angry with Kevin because he did not want it being shared on Roger K. Young and Christopher Parrett's website. Whatever the reasoning though, the fact that it was shared in the first place seems to go against what the story itself says: "President Smith told him that he had all that needed to be recorded, and that he now felt he had overstepped his bounds in telling my brother all that he had, and prayed that the Lord would forgive him, and that my brother should only record and tell his family the elements that needed to be kept sacred in his journal."

5. Family or fame? Speaking of the final words of the account, why is it that no one in the family (at least everyone I have talked to in Jane's or Kevin's families) has ever heard of this story or account before? If H.D. was counseled to keep it sacred and to only share it with "his family" surely he would have shared it with his own immediate family as David Horne had done. Yet such was apparently not the case. And now, with it being published openly on the internet for four years now, anyone and everyone can read it. And even still, as of yesterday, there is immediate members of the Fuller family who have never heard this story before. Which begs the question - is it true and is it being shared for the benefit of the family as President Smith supposedly counseled H.D., or was it false and originally written and shared for fame or some other personal agenda?

6. Jane Rae (Fuller) Topham, H.D.'s older sister by about 15 months, and other close family members have denounced it as not true. While there are elements of truth found in the story, those who are closest to the people of whom this account is supposed to be about have all rejected other aspects of it as completely false. Personally, I am more inclined to believe Kevin and H.D.'s older sister Jane when she said that it is nothing more than a "fanciful tale" with elements of truth and prophecy in it.

Hopefully I have been able to help provide some more insight and information for people to make an informed decision about the veracity of this account.

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AI2.0
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Posts: 3917

Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by AI2.0 »

Onsdag, thank you so much for that excellent detective work and for sharing your findings with us!!!

So, I'm trying to get this straight. These are two different incidents, where GAS shared a vision and two young boys wrote them down, is that correct?

The account by David Horne is the first to come forward:
From the book:"As a thief in the night" Russian Surprise

Wars: War In America

As mentioned before, President George Albert Smith also saw this war, which he
mentioned in passing in conference and other talks. President Smith related
this vision in detail to a few individuals. The only written record of this
vision currently available, is provided by the family of Lyman Merrill Horne,
the grandson of George A. Smith and cousin to President Smith. About a year
after he became President in 1945 at the end of World War II, he visited the
Horne family for an arranged family meeting and talked to them about a terrible
vision he had recently concerning a future war that would make WWII seem like a
Sunday school picnic. David Horne, a young man at the time, extracted and
summarized some of what President Smith said from a wire tape recording that was
made at the time;
"I have had a troublesome vision of another great and terrible war that made the
war just ended look like a training exercise, and people died like flies. It
began at a time when the Soviet Union's military might dwarfed that of the
United States, and we, that is the United States, would have missiles that
carried an atomic bomb in Europe. I saw the United States withdraw its missiles
to appease the Soviet Union, and then the war began."
"He also said that we would have big missiles in deep holes he described like
grain silos which the Soviets would try to destroy by their own missiles. They
would hit military installations and certain cities also. He said that the
President at that time would be of Greek extraction. Until then all the
presidents would be of British or Northern European ancestry. He continued that
the U.S. would be bound by numerous entangling alliances and would take away the
weapons owned by the people. He talked some about the initial attack and the
ground warfare. One tactic, especially in Europe, was to transport thousands of
tanks in big trucks like semi trailers on the super highways to have them
located where they wanted them when the war was to begin. During that
explanation I asked, "what about the atomic cannon?" to which he answered, "I
didn't see anything like that."
"Then he said, "The aftermath was dreadful. Think of the worst, most difficult
times of the depression." He turned to us children and said,"You won't remember
the depression," which was true. He repeated to our parents, "Think of the worst
condition of the depression. Can you think of something?" To which our father
answered, "Oh yes!" Then President Smith continued, "You know how Sunday School
picnics are complete with salad, chicken, root beer, and dessert, and everyone
has a wonderful time. That worst time of the depression will seem like a Sunday
School picnic when compared with how conditions will be after that great war."1
David Horne also mentioned that President Smith indicated that this nuclear
attack would take place on a holiday after the new president was elected, but
before he took office. The following war would involve many of the countries of
the world but President Smith talked specifically about Europe, Germany,
Hungary, Israel, Turkey, United States, and the Soviet Union, as well as a few
others.
1.Statement of David Hughes Horne, P.E., copyrighted March 26, 1989
and then there is the incident shared by Copenhaver/Kevin Fuller that Bro. Jones reposted from AVOW a few years ago. Kevin Fuller is claiming that his brother was told this same vision while they were driving in a car.

I hope I have this right. I agree with you, I think Kevin Fuller is bolstering David Horne's account, but adding his own twist, with the presidency of Obama. I think he wanted to remove the part about being 'greek' and change it to 'not european' so that people would identify the vision with Obama and if he is a racist, that would be reason enough to do so.

In my opinion, this part about the journal is the most damning.
3. The Journal. When I asked Kevin about H.D.'s journal, and if I could read it, he said that he no longer had it. He claimed that H.D. had given it to him to read through and that the account in question was actually drawn in pictures and that he (Kevin) had "interpreted" the pictures into the above story, which he then shared with H.D. and was told that he had gotten it right. After writing this story Kevin then gave the journal back to H.D. I was completely dumbstruck when I heard this and wondered if I had even heard it right. I didn't want to seem completely incredulous but asked if there was a way for Kevin to borrow the journal again so I could see it for myself. He assured me he couldn't. This has been a big red flag for me. If I indeed heard it right then why would H.D. "draw" this experience in pictures instead of using words? Well, from all indications he was gifted with visual things - being able to envision buildings spatially and to be a good architect, maybe that is just the way his young mind worked? And then too, how could Kevin come up with this story and write it down based solely upon his own "interpretation" of Dee's drawings? Well, he says he verified it with H.D. so.
It wasn't written down, but drawn in pictures? Give me a break. And, he can't produce the journal, forget it. Then the fact that others feel he has trouble with telling the truth? That's the last nail in his coffin for his credibility, IMO.

Onsdag
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by Onsdag »

AI2.0 wrote:Onsdag, thank you so much for that excellent detective work and for sharing your findings with us!!!

So, I'm trying to get this straight. These are two different incidents, where GAS shared a vision and two young boys wrote them down, is that correct?

The account by David Horne is the first to come forward:

<snip>

and then there is the incident shared by Copenhaver/Kevin Fuller that Bro. Jones reposted from AVOW a few years ago. Kevin Fuller is claiming that his brother was told this same vision while they were driving in a car.

I hope I have this right. I agree with you, I think Kevin Fuller is bolstering David Horne's account, but adding his own twist, with the presidency of Obama. I think he wanted to remove the part about being 'greek' and change it to 'not european' so that people would identify the vision with Obama and if he is a racist, that would be reason enough to do so.

In my opinion, this part about the journal is the most damning.
3. The Journal. When I asked Kevin about H.D.'s journal, and if I could read it, he said that he no longer had it. He claimed that H.D. had given it to him to read through and that the account in question was actually drawn in pictures and that he (Kevin) had "interpreted" the pictures into the above story, which he then shared with H.D. and was told that he had gotten it right. After writing this story Kevin then gave the journal back to H.D. I was completely dumbstruck when I heard this and wondered if I had even heard it right. I didn't want to seem completely incredulous but asked if there was a way for Kevin to borrow the journal again so I could see it for myself. He assured me he couldn't. This has been a big red flag for me. If I indeed heard it right then why would H.D. "draw" this experience in pictures instead of using words? Well, from all indications he was gifted with visual things - being able to envision buildings spatially and to be a good architect, maybe that is just the way his young mind worked? And then too, how could Kevin come up with this story and write it down based solely upon his own "interpretation" of Dee's drawings? Well, he says he verified it with H.D. so.
It wasn't written down, but drawn in pictures? Give me a break. And, he can't produce the journal, forget it. Then the fact that others feel he has trouble with telling the truth? That's the last nail in his coffin for his credibility, IMO.
That is correct. The first account was given by David Horne and has been around for many years. I am inclined to believe this account as authentic for a number of reasons, including: 1) it seems to match up with my own research and understanding of several scriptures and prophecies, 2) many elements of the prophecy have already been fulfilled, 3) several members of David Horne's family have verified different aspects of it, and also vouch for his personal integrity and faithfulness.

The second account, given by Kevin Fuller, has only surfaced a few years ago, and, in my opinion, is very questionable and I personally don't believe it to be true for the reasons I detailed previously.

As for the "drawings" in the journal I admit that I may have incorrectly heard or misinterpreted what Kevin had said. I can't say with certainty that is what was said or implied as it was a few years ago when I interviewed him, I did not record it at that time, and as I said "I was completely dumbstruck when I heard this and wondered if I had even heard it right." Re-reading the story it does not seem to match with what was written by Kevin when he wrote: "After recording what he could remember, my brother felt like he had left something important out, and was concerned, so since Pres. Smith was still in residence, my brother went back to him and had him read what he had written." George Albert Smith could not have "read what he had written" had H.D. drawn it in pictures.

Even still, if I mistook what Kevin said, there are other aspects of the story which do not support it as being true.

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francisco.colaco
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by francisco.colaco »

And there goes the second witness. I am flabbergasted that someone would make things up on this matter, especially being LDS, and lead us away.

Moving on.

The GAS vision is the only text that permits a chronology of the fall of the United States government, the first step to restore the gospel to the Jews and inaugurate what I call The Age of Public Miracles. I do think the Lord could have used Brother Horne to produce a warning to the World, outside of the institutional Church, a warning that would not be tied to the Church and give fodder to our enemies in the government and controlling the government, delaying the persecutions as much as possible. This warning will save lives and the operationality of the Church outside the United States, if proven to be inspired.

I plead that members in the US strive to obtain a confirmation of Brother Horne's account by another family, diary or stake conference report, this time not devoid of credibility. Do we still have the Prophet's diaries? Of members of his family? Of other general authorities or stake presidents? Of those that were close to him? Notes from stake conferences? If he told the vision to the Horne family, he may have told it elsewhere, and more likely than not it was recorded.

If the diaries survived, and we produce our second witness, even without all the details of Brother Horne's account, we may save lives and reactivate people. Right now that is the only thing I care about, since starting a capital intensive business so near a depression or taking the decision to live in a big city can destroy a life outside the United States, where a normalcy under a severe depression will imply that banks will try to collect their debts and that destitutes will infernise life in the major burgs.

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francisco.colaco
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by francisco.colaco »

THIS IS IMPORTANT, sorry in advance for the capitals.

Do we have area and stake conference reports or notes from the late forties and early fifties? It was claimed that Hugh Nibley heard from his mother this same vision and, for our relief, his mother claimed that it was told at a "Bay Area Conference".

Such vision might be recorded in proceedings, notes or diaries. IF we go down at it, we may find a lot of unheard details that confirm the account. Did the Church leave any record of the speakers at the time? If so, there should not be so many Bay Area conferences in which George Albert Smith spoke at the target dates and that could be attended by the mother of Brother Nibley. From there to diaries of proceedings should be a jiffy.

I am sorry that, being so far, I may not be of much help in this endeavour. I will help in all I can, though.

will
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by will »

The David Thorne account of this vision is archived in the BYU library.My question is why would it be there if it was not true?

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mirkwood
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Re: Accounts of the prophecy of Pres. George A Smith

Post by mirkwood »

Doesn't the church archives contain the Salamander Letter by Mark Hoffman?

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