The relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

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friendsofthe
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The relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

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What is the relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

In this blog I want to explore the relationship between a statement that Daniel makes in chapter 7, verse 9 and what the Lord tells us about the same events in the 29th section of the Doctrine and Covenants. So we will start out with these words from Daniel:

“I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit“. Dan. 7:9

Hear we have a simple sequence with just two events.

1- “thrones were cast down”
2- “ancient of days did sit”

That was the easy part. Now lets go to section 29 and explore how the two passages of scripture are related. In verses 9-13 we read:

9 For the hour is nigh and the day soon at hand when the earth is ripe; and all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts, that wickedness shall not be upon the earth;
10 For the hour is nigh, and that which was spoken by mine apostles must be fulfilled; for as they spoke so shall it come to pass;
11 For I will reveal myself from heaven with power and great glory, with all the hosts thereof, and dwell in righteousness with men on earth a thousand years, and the wicked shall not stand.
12 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, and it hath gone forth in a firm decree, by the will of the Father, that mine apostles, the Twelve which were with me in my ministry at Jerusalem, shall stand at my right hand at the day of my coming in a pillar of fire, being clothed with robes of righteousness, with crowns upon their heads, in glory even as I am, to judge the whole house of Israel, even as many as have loved me and kept my commandments, and none else.
13 For a trump shall sound both long and loud, even as upon Mount Sinai, and all the earth shall quake, and they shall come forth—yea, even the dead which died in me, to receive a crown of righteousness, and to be clothed upon, even as I am, to be with me, that we may be one.

These verses are obviously speaking of the coming millennial day, however, looking a little closer we notice these words in the 12th verse:

“the Twelve which were with me in my ministry at Jerusalem, shall stand at my right hand at the day … to judge the whole house of Israel”.

The interesting thing about this judgment is that it takes place when the “ancient of days” will “sit” at Adam-Ondi-Ahman. In other words it’s the same event that Daniel speaks of above. Of this event and it’s place and time Elder Bruce R. McConkie has said:

“Daniel's account of the great latter-day council at Adam-ondi-Ahman includes these words: "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." (Dan. 7:9-10.) Thrones are cast down: the kingdoms of this world cease; it is the day when the Lord makes a full end of all nations. He alone shall be exalted in that day. The Ancient of Days, the oldest and most ancient of men, Adam our father, sits in judgment over the righteous of his race. Be it remembered that the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb, who were with the Lord in his ministry in Jerusalem, shall judge the whole house of Israel, meaning that portion of Israel who have kept the commandments, "and none else." (D&C 29:12.) There will be a great hierarchy of judges in that great day, of whom Adam, under Christ, will be the chief of all. Those judges will judge the righteous ones under their jurisdiction, but Christ himself, he alone, will judge the wicked. All this we have heretofore set forth; now we are seeing Adam sitting in his judicial capacity. And the scene is glorious indeed”. (Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah: The Second Coming of the Son of Man, pg. 584.)

Realizing that verses 9-13 above are speaking of a specific time and event during the millennium helps give us a proper perspective on the verses that follow. In verse 14, it says:

14 But, behold, I say unto you that before this great day shall come the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall be turned into blood, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and there shall be greater signs in heaven above and in the earth beneath;

Note that the Lord says “before this great day”, that is, before the Lord’s first millennial appearance at Adam-Ondi-Ahman and the opening of the 7th seal. This means that the Lord is referring to events that will take place in the 6th seal. These events are spelled out in verses 14-21. They read:

14 But, behold, I say unto you that before this great day shall come the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall be turned into blood, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and there shall be greater signs in heaven above and in the earth beneath;
15 And there shall be weeping and wailing among the hosts of men;
16 And there shall be a great hailstorm sent forth to destroy the crops of the earth.
17 And it shall come to pass, because of the wickedness of the world, that I will take vengeance upon the wicked, for they will not repent; for the cup of mine indignation is full; for behold, my blood shall not cleanse them if they hear me not.
18 Wherefore, I the Lord God will send forth flies upon the face of the earth, which shall take hold of the inhabitants thereof, and shall eat their flesh, and shall cause maggots to come in upon them;
19 And their tongues shall be stayed that they shall not utter against me; and their flesh shall fall from off their bones, and their eyes from their sockets;
20 And it shall come to pass that the beasts of the forest and the fowls of the air shall devour them up.
21 And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire, according as it is spoken by the mouth of Ezekiel the prophet, who spoke of these things, which have not come to pass but surely must, as I live, for abominations shall not reign.

The verses above denote some very significant destruction and cleansing to take place before the “ancient of days” will “sit” at Adam-Ondi-Ahman. Of particular interest are these words in verse 21:

“And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire”.

If you have followed my previous blogs, you know that “the great and abominable church” referred to here is what we would call the New Word Order. The financial, military and political resources of today’s America serve the global agendum of this group who “seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people”. Ether 8:25.

It serves the Lord’s purposes that America is to be one of the first of the “thrones” that “were cast down” in Daniels vision. This is a very necessary event. Only after America is cleansed can it’s millennial destiny be fulfilled. The secret combinations among the Gentiles must be swept off. Of this Ezra Taft Benson said:

“The Lord has declared that before the second coming of Christ it will be necessary to ". . . destroy the secret works of darkness, . . ." in order to preserve the land of Zion—the Americas. (2 Nephi 10:11-16.) (Ezra Taft Benson, Oct. general conference, 1961)

Now, here is a very important point and a key to understanding the timing of the Lord’s first millennial appearance. When the cleansing of America occurs, the appearance of the Lord at Adam-Ondi-Ahman can not be far behind, for it is the establishment of the Lord’s millennial rule that will fill the void. We have a two step sequence with the second step, of necessity, following just on the heals of the first step. How far behind? As soon as the delinquent renters are evicted, the true owner will move in, but that’s a subject for a future blog.

Returning to where we started, if we do for these verses in D&C 29 what we did for Daniel 7 above. We might express the sequence like this.

1- “the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire”. (A 6th seal event.)
2- “the Twelve which were with me in my ministry at Jerusalem, shall stand at my right hand at the day … to judge the whole house of Israel”, which we know takes place when the “ancient of days” will “sit”

As you can see, the Lord is telling us the exact same thing in section 29 that Daniel expressed in chapter 7. If we come to understand the complete significance of the whole of Daniel chapter 7 and these verses in D&C 29, our comprehension and awareness of the very near future would be magnified by ten fold.
Last edited by friendsofthe on January 16th, 2011, 11:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

Squally
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Re: The relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

Post by Squally »

friendsofthe--Thanks for sharing more insights. I really am enjoying your posts on the prequels of Adam-ondi-ahman seventh seal opening.

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kathyn
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Re: The relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

Post by kathyn »

I really enjoyed that post. I had not thought of it in quite that way. If I've read you right, we are still in the Sixth Seal. (This is what I believe.) It's possible that the Sixth and the Seventh overlap somewhat. But I feel we have not yet experienced a few of the greatest signs mentioned.

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friendsofthe
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Re: The relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

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Thanks Squally, I just wish I were able to gage how many on the forum are “getting” it. Anyway, another interesting conclusion that we get from section 29 here is that AOA is part of the Lord’s millennial reign. Many commentaries will tell you that AOA happens before the millennium. Not true, the Lord says in verses 11-12:

“For I will reveal myself from heaven with power and great glory, with all the hosts thereof, and dwell in righteousness with men on earth a thousand years, and… the Twelve which were with me in my ministry at Jerusalem, shall stand at my right hand at the day of my coming… to judge the whole house of Israel, even as many as have loved me and kept my commandments, and none else”.

So you see AOA is part of the Lord’s millennial reign, it is his first appearance and therefore is the event that opens the millennium or 7th seal.

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friendsofthe
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Re: The relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

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Kathyn said:
I really enjoyed that post. I had not thought of it in quite that way. If I've read you right, we are still in the Sixth Seal. (This is what I believe.) It's possible that the Sixth and the Seventh overlap somewhat. But I feel we have not yet experienced a few of the greatest signs mentioned.

Yes Kathyn, we are in the 6th seal but I’m defiantly NOT in the camp of the overlapers.

Please don’t take what I’m going to say personally. It’s just that the overlapping concept is one of my hot buttons. Excuse my rant.

Saying that the events in one seal overlap events in another is like saying that the Lord doesn’t know how to count. If we have to stretch and twist what the Lord has said in order to make our interpolation fit then we have the wrong interpretation.

Why does the Lord use labels like “first seal”, “second seal” etc.? Answer, to make it simple to the understanding of all. So take the Lord’s word for it when he goes to the effort of number things for you, he’s not trying to trick you, to the contrary, he is just giving you the facts.

There is a principle involved here. It’s the concept of “line upon line and precept upon precept”. If the Lord has a sequence of 10 precepts to teach us and we don’t take his word for precept # 3 or doubt something he said in percept # 4 then we have burned the bridge to precepts 5 through 10. We need to approach the Lord with an open heart, casting all doubt aside. JMHO

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pjbrownie
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Re: The relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

Post by pjbrownie »

friendsofthe wrote:Thanks Squally, I just wish I were able to gage how many on the forum are “getting” it. Anyway, another interesting conclusion that we get from section 29 here is that AOA is part of the Lord’s millennial reign. Many commentaries will tell you that AOA happens before the millennium. Not true, the Lord says in verses 11-12:

“For I will reveal myself from heaven with power and great glory, with all the hosts thereof, and dwell in righteousness with men on earth a thousand years, and… the Twelve which were with me in my ministry at Jerusalem, shall stand at my right hand at the day of my coming… to judge the whole house of Israel, even as many as have loved me and kept my commandments, and none else”.

So you see AOA is part of the Lord’s millennial reign, it is his first appearance and therefore is the event that opens the millennium or 7th seal.
I think the overlap problem is a function of the belief that the seventh seal had to happen exactly at the year 2000. The Church has said.as late as 1983 that we do not hare to be wedded to that. It is.timed from the fall of Adam which we only know happened about 4000 bc.

Another thing we forget to consider is the nature of the Second Coming. It comes as the dawn from the east. its final triumph which is the coming in glory happens many years after the Millennium commences in America. the judgments come.here first and the redemptions come here first.

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friendsofthe
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Re: The relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

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Kathyn said:
But I feel we have not yet experienced a few of the greatest signs mentioned.


Keep in mind that some signs apply to his first appearance (AOA) and others apply to one of his other appearances. So when we consider a particular sign we need to ask ourselves, “what appearance does this apply to”.

If it applies to his appearance to the Jews at the battle of Armageddon then it doesn’t have to have been fulfilled for him to come to AOA. For example, the gospel being preached to every nation, kindred tongue and people will not occur until after the Lord appears to the Jews. I have a blog about this on my web site, “The Heathen Nations” that explains this.

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friendsofthe
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Re: The relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

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Pjbrownie said:
I think the overlap problem is a function of the belief that the seventh seal had to happen exactly at the year 2000. The Church has said.as late as 1983 that we do not hare to be wedded to that. It is.timed from the fall of Adam which we only know happened about 4000 bc.

Another thing we forget to consider is the nature of the Second Coming. It comes as the dawn from the east. its final triumph which is the coming in glory happens many years after the Millennium commences in America. the judgments come.here first and the redemptions come here first.

Well said! I agree 100%

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friendsofthe
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Re: The relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

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If it appears that I’m hammering very hard on the idea of understanding Dan., 7 it’s because I am. When we understand Rev. 13:1-10 and Dan. 7 and the 42 months, we have the key to the timing of the “fall of the great and abominable church” which event just precedes Christ’s appearance at AOA! As said above, “As soon as the delinquent renters are evicted, the true owner will move in”.

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teejayroy
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Re: The relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

Post by teejayroy »

We are told that the Gospel was restored inthe beginning of the sixth seal(see Gerald Lund, Dec 1987 Ensign) since each seal is 1000 years long would'nt that mean the seventh seal would not begin until around 2830? Any thoughts? I have heard of people in Scotland who received their Patriarchal Blessings would live to see the Saviours return. Also Patriarchs in Utah are reported to have given blessings to young men who say they will be in a great war,whether that means spiritual or physical I am not sure.

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friendsofthe
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Re: The relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

Post by friendsofthe »

In 1987, President Ezra Taft Benson, then acting president of the church told the youth of the church that thy were the generation that would see the Lord’s Second Coming. Pardon me for not finding it for you but it should be available to all.

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Jason
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Re: The relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

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friendsofthe wrote:In 1987, President Ezra Taft Benson, then acting president of the church told the youth of the church that thy were the generation that would see the Lord’s Second Coming. Pardon me for not finding it for you but it should be available to all.
I think its about half way or 3/4 through 1st video -








gardener4life
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Re: The relationship between Daniel 7 and D&C 29?

Post by gardener4life »

I'm curious if you noted that D&C 29 has a parable version to match up with it? --> D&C 29:8 is to combine with 3 Nephi Chapter 2 and 3 in parable terms. There seem to be many scriptures that allude to this event, which will start when the time of the gentiles is fulfilled, and many clues. But they are disguised to keep the wicked from persecuting the saints of God, so effort is required to understand them and this is why.

I am still trying to work out how much time passes between the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled and the 4th beast described in Daniel 7 and Revelations advance against the people of God. From there, there's a connective piece that states a time period between the little horn sitting defiling the Jewish Temple. (Daniel 8: 11-9, but this is a bit hard to read because the wording is kind of in code.) I think the time period stated is more important for seeing which signs are in which order than it is to know exactly x days. And from there you can connect it to other event orders.

From what you can tell from Mark 13:14, cross referenced with Daniel 12:11, JST-M, and a few others also imply that many of the judgments start after the 'abomination which maketh desolate' occurs; or in other words the abomination of desolation. the very verbage 'abomination which maketh desolate' shows and helps with understanding signs of the times because it shows a cause and effect relationship of wicked abominations, cause judgments, desolations, (though not all judgments will be after the abomination of desolation event.)

Is Revelation 11:2's stated 42 month time period to be understood as the time period of which the 4th beast occupies the Holy Land? (note also same time period quoted for revelation 13 of the beast exercising power to persecute 42 months in verse 5.) Note that Zechariah 12-14 show that it won't just be one country but an a mixture of several groups, probably under the false excuse of UN peacekeeping, or some other 'creative but deceiving devices'.

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