Conceal Carry in Church??

[Mark]

I think there is wisdom in this. I can't tell you how many times I would have been tempted if I had been carrying to fire a couple rounds over the head of a long winded high councilman who didn't know when to say amen. ;)

That's bordering on evil speaking of the Lord's anointed - careful brother. ;)

:)) Everybody needs a friendly reminder when to shut up every now and then..

[Alaris]

My wife will only sit in the pew at the isle and closest to the exit doors in church. Her experiences in El Salvador have made it so. She expects bombs to go off.

Yes, Guerillas have entered in the back doors of chapels and sprayed machine gun fire in the rooms - during meetings.

Yes, we will see more of it.

Rely on faith for God to always fight our battles (D&C covenant promise) or be a minuteman, always ready to protect the flock? I would rely heavily on the Holy Ghost for promptings (do I arm myself today for church or not?).

What does a priesthood light-saber look like? Ask a cherubim.

I miss the like button. Angels have swords. Someone said "church commandment.". This is the thinking that led the Jews so far out the path that they were missing the mark. There is no such thing as Church commandments and nothing so precious as obeying the Lords commandments even if they contradict His own commandments. Killing Laban for example or sacrificing your own son. This level of obedience and oneness with the Lords will is our aim and we will never get there if we think church policies are commandments.

As for guns no one can protect like the Lord can. That said carrying should be a matter of prayer. I pray frequently where to take my 1911. If the Lord tells me to take it to church guess whose command I'm following?

[Obrien]

I think there is wisdom in this. I can't tell you how many times I would have been tempted if I had been carrying to fire a couple rounds over the head of a long winded high councilman who didn't know when to say amen. ;)

That's bordering on evil speaking of the Lord's anointed - careful brother. ;)

:)) Everybody needs a friendly reminder when to shut up every now and then..

ESPECIALLY long winded high councillors. We've achieved common ground, Mark.

[JK4Woods]

After the church shootings in the south, our Bishop organized a very quiet policy.

Those active police, retired police, FBI and military veterans were asked to quietly carry concealed to church. It went even so far as to make arrangements that those carrying that Sunday would site in different quadrants of the church.

Certain doors were locked from outside access to force latecomers to enter the building a certain way.

Civilian concealed carry permit holders were not invited. Reason being, in an active shooter scenario, those without training and experience would falter, be slow on the uptake, quite likely mis-read a developing situation, and most likely miss and hit an innocent bystander.

The Bishop had parking lot patrols stepped up while church was in session.

He also took his wife and the Elders Quorum President and several more reliable ward members to Front Site for handgun training.

Times change though.... all that preparation and nothing ever happened. Then the Bishopric was changed and we got a new Stake President and ward boundaries re-aligned.

While I was a carrier before, I hear no one is carrying now....

[freedomforall]

Some people high on something don't care if someone else is carrying. They are out to hurt others at any cost. It may be that they don't mind the idea of a shootout, so perhaps they look upon a confrontation as a challenge. It doesn't pay for church members becoming cocky and feeling invincible. No matter what the scenario, the risk runs high as to innocent people getting hurt or worse.

The carrying of a gun does not make the man, it is the man doing everything to learn how to shoot straight and responsibly handling the gun. Too many wannabe tough guys out there assuming they can get into a gun fight and hit all the bad guys and walk away a hero. Why do you think there are so many cops in one place doing the shooting. It's numbers and element of surprise, numbers that get the job done. Not the imaginary hero.

How many armed murderers charged in on Joseph Smith blazing away? How many did JS hit before going through the window?

A person that is a pour shot and is humble enough to know it may want to use a Taurus Judge, Defender capable of firing (5) .410 shot, (5) .38 Long Colt or in combination. Just a thought.

[Mark]

I think there is wisdom in this. I can't tell you how many times I would have been tempted if I had been carrying to fire a couple rounds over the head of a long winded high councilman who didn't know when to say amen. ;)

That's bordering on evil speaking of the Lord's anointed - careful brother. ;)

:)) Everybody needs a friendly reminder when to shut up every now and then..

ESPECIALLY long winded high councillors. We've achieved common ground, Mark.

Is this what hell feels like? :-ss

[kittycat51]

I for one would feel a lot safer if people with Concealed Carry permits would have them at church. When Al qaeda or ISIS encourages "lone wolf" attacks on anything, I can't help but think how much of a sitting duck we are in Church. I don't believe in the Poly-Anna style of thinking that "but we are Church members we will be safe"....As much as I want to believe this, NO bad things do happen to good people. We have a couple of police officers in our ward and I KNOW they bring their weapons. I also know my brother in law takes his to Church. Don't ask don't tell in my mind. Although, carry or not to Church, if a bad situation were to ever arise, I believe there would be many heroes who would step up and do what they could to take down a bad individual.

[freedomforall]

I for one would feel a lot safer if people with Concealed Carry permits would have them at church. When Al qaeda or ISIS encourages "lone wolf" attacks on anything, I can't help but think how much of a sitting duck we are in Church. I don't believe in the Poly-Anna style of thinking that "but we are Church members we will be safe"....As much as I want to believe this, NO bad things do happen to good people. We have a couple of police officers in our ward and I KNOW they bring their weapons. I also know my brother in law takes his to Church. Don't ask don't tell in my mind. Although, carry or not to Church, if a bad situation were to ever arise, I believe there would be many heroes who would step up and do what they could to take down a bad individual.

How about a car load?. The bad guy doesn't always travel alone.

[kittycat51]

I for one would feel a lot safer if people with Concealed Carry permits would have them at church. When Al qaeda or ISIS encourages "lone wolf" attacks on anything, I can't help but think how much of a sitting duck we are in Church. I don't believe in the Poly-Anna style of thinking that "but we are Church members we will be safe"....As much as I want to believe this, NO bad things do happen to good people. We have a couple of police officers in our ward and I KNOW they bring their weapons. I also know my brother in law takes his to Church. Don't ask don't tell in my mind. Although, carry or not to Church, if a bad situation were to ever arise, I believe there would be many heroes who would step up and do what they could to take down a bad individual.

How about a car load?. The bad guy doesn't always travel alone.

Ok, Ok, if you want to get technical; YES agreed.

[Silver Pie]

I think there is wisdom in this. I can't tell you how many times I would have been tempted if I had been carrying to fire a couple rounds over the head of a long winded high councilman who didn't know when to say amen. ;)

:)) :))

[Silver Pie]

I think I would only feel comfortable if those cc in Church were those who had been trained like was said in a post above, law enforcement officers (current or retired), veterans, etc. The wannabe heroes might end up shooting the wrong people. Though it's possible they won't, those not experienced have no real clue what it feels like to come face to face with an armed person.

[David13]

I think I would only feel comfortable if those cc in Church were those who had been trained like was said in a post above, law enforcement officers (current or retired), veterans, etc. The wannabe heroes might end up shooting the wrong people. Though it's possible they won't, those not experienced have no real clue what it feels like to come face to face with an armed person.

I know in both California and Utah you have to have training to get a concealed permit. I don't know about all the other states, or your state.
I also know a whole lot of civilians who train a whole lot more than many a cop. There are quite a few cops who in truth can't qualify, but are fudged past.
Many a veteran really had no firearms training to speak of, and it could have been 30 or more years ago.
So depending on who the citizen is, I may prefer them over a cop, depending on who the cop is.
dc

[brianj]

I think I would only feel comfortable if those cc in Church were those who had been trained like was said in a post above, law enforcement officers (current or retired), veterans, etc. The wannabe heroes might end up shooting the wrong people. Though it's possible they won't, those not experienced have no real clue what it feels like to come face to face with an armed person.

I know in both California and Utah you have to have training to get a concealed permit. I don't know about all the other states, or your state.
I also know a whole lot of civilians who train a whole lot more than many a cop. There are quite a few cops who in truth can't qualify, but are fudged past.
Many a veteran really had no firearms training to speak of, and it could have been 30 or more years ago.
So depending on who the citizen is, I may prefer them over a cop, depending on who the cop is.
dc

What David said.

I've seen a lot from firearm experts saying that if you aren't shooting at least 100 rounds per month then you aren't proficient to carry a weapon. And I've seen police departments run by anti-gun chiefs, in big cities run by anti-gun city councils, where police officers don't even have to fire 50 rounds per year to meet department standards.

I've known people who wanted to become police officers but had no experience with guns. They think of themselves as highly trained and believe that if they can barely use a gun with the training they have then nobody else should be able to have a gun. It can take a long time to convince these people that they are not highly trained and that their instructors didn't really know what they were doing.

[Silver Pie]

Thank you, David13 and brianj, that makes me feel safer about those people carrying concealed.

[scottja]

Did you know Glock brand makes some awesome scripture bags !!!

Concealed means Concealed means Concealed means Concealed - nobody can see it, nobody knows.
That said, I am very picky for who I might come out of the holster for...
If me and mine can avoid or escape or retreat, that is always the best and least costly option.

For me it is kind of a "don't ask - don't tell" policy.
I know some who carry at church, and I know some who know if I carry (or not)

I know plenty of police and deputies who only carry because its part of the uniform, and need to take the refresher classes in order to qualify yearly.
It can take a lot of energy to talk to someone who doesn't know what they don't know - just because they have been given some civil authority...
I also know plenty of reserve and volunteer officers, and plain ole people in the community who train weekly monthly, and not only shooting, but movement drills, malfunctions, draw from concealment, clearing rooms, etc.

I believe if you choose to carry, it should also be a commitment to constant training.

[freedomforall]

I think I would only feel comfortable if those cc in Church were those who had been trained like was said in a post above, law enforcement officers (current or retired), veterans, etc. The wannabe heroes might end up shooting the wrong people. Though it's possible they won't, those not experienced have no real clue what it feels like to come face to face with an armed person.

I know in both California and Utah you have to have training to get a concealed permit. I don't know about all the other states, or your state.
I also know a whole lot of civilians who train a whole lot more than many a cop. There are quite a few cops who in truth can't qualify, but are fudged past.
Many a veteran really had no firearms training to speak of, and it could have been 30 or more years ago.
So depending on who the citizen is, I may prefer them over a cop, depending on who the cop is.
dc

Then when one gets proficient enough they advance to this:

Then one alternates weapons to see which one hits first:

Then one becomes the fastest gun alive.

[mirkwood]

CCW does not equal trained. The majority of the CCW holders I know shoot less then the majority of the cops I know.

To maintain your level of proficiency requires 50 rounds a month. Not improve...maintain. I dry fire every day to make up for lack of range time. Range time would be better, but dry fire is also good trigger control and sight picture practice.

Everyone who carries should be practicing. EVERYONE.

Real life experience is huge too. You have know idea how you will perform until you have been in the real thing. You may think you know, but you won't until/unless it happens. I've watched reasonably well trained people fail under pressure.

My experience of shooting with police officers for 20 years is that the vast majority are adequate to high speed. Not many suck and that is too many that do in my opinion. They should take tactics and shooting more seriously. So should the CCW's holders I know which don't shoot much (which again is the majority of the ones I know.) They need to be more serious too.

Nobody in our agency gets "fudged by" on qualifiers. If you fail, you fail and get to go to a remedial shooting class. Period.

[mirkwood]

Those active police,

They were probably already carrying on Sunday.

[L4t3rD4yS41nT]

If you are a conceal carry permit holder, carry it everywhere. You never know when you will need it. Churches will soon be targets. No one needs to know (or should know) you are carrying if you are being smart about it. I'm in a position of leadership in my ward, and I would never ask anyone to leave if sound out they were carrying. I would tell them to keep it quiet and to themselves as it should be.

[Silver Pie]

Thanks for weighing in, Mirk. I trust your view on things like this more than I trust anyone else's.

CCW does not equal trained. The majority of the CCW holders I know shoot less then the majority of the cops I know.

To maintain your level of proficiency requires 50 rounds a month. Not improve...maintain. I dry fire every day to make up for lack of range time. Range time would be better, but dry fire is also good trigger control and sight picture practice.

Everyone who carries should be practicing. EVERYONE.

Real life experience is huge too. You have know idea how you will perform until you have been in the real thing. You may think you know, but you won't until/unless it happens. I've watched reasonably well trained people fail under pressure.

My experience of shooting with police officers for 20 years is that the vast majority are adequate to high speed. Not many suck and that is too many that do in my opinion. They should take tactics and shooting more seriously. So should the CCW's holders I know which don't shoot much (which again is the majority of the ones I know.) They need to be more serious too.

Nobody in our agency gets "fudged by" on qualifiers. If you fail, you fail and get to go to a remedial shooting class. Period.

[Z2100]

The Lord protects us from any harm. Have you heard of any shooting/attacks at any LDS churches? The Lord will keep us safe from weirdos, until its time to let all Hell break loose.

[Silver Pie]

Not recently, Z2100, but there was a bishop killed in California some years ago by a nutcase. I think in the bishop's office. I'm sure there are people on LDSFF who remember that. I remember there was a discussion about it on ldsglo.

[David13]

The Lord protects us from any harm. Have you heard of any shooting/attacks at any LDS churches? The Lord will keep us safe from weirdos, until its time to let all Hell break loose.

There was also a fight over where to sit in Sacrament meeting, which I think resulted in a shooting in the parking lot; maybe 5 years ago, in Utah.

The Lord protects us,, gives us a general blanket, overall immunity; we must then do the foot work, which may even include bloodshed.

dc

Do a search. You will see quite a few miscellaneous incidents of violence. One near here, 3 were shot, one fatally leaving a dance or some such of the youth ward near Gardena. That just last year.

[Sandinista]

Not recently, Z2100, but there was a bishop killed in California some years ago by a nutcase. I think in the bishop's office. I'm sure there are people on LDSFF who remember that. I remember there was a discussion about it on ldsglo.

My son served his mission in that area and was in the building meeting with the ward mission leader in the room next to the Bishop's office when the Bishop was killed. We had just got home from church that Sunday when we got a call from someone in that Stake telling us that "Our son was oaky and we would hear from him later that evening." We immediately turned on the news and saw a report about the shooting with our son and his companion standing in the background as the news cameras panned the scene during interviews with people. It was a situation of a guy with serious mental issues going off the deep end, with tragic results. Would someone with a concealed carry been able to stop the guy? I don't know. Fortunately it was between meetings and only a few people were in the building. After the guy shot the Bishop he left and called the police from an intersection a few miles away. He waited there for police to arrive and basically committed "suicide by cop" by opening fire on the police.

[Z2100]

The Lord protects us from any harm. Have you heard of any shooting/attacks at any LDS churches? The Lord will keep us safe from weirdos, until its time to let all Hell break loose.

There was also a fight over where to sit in Sacrament meeting, which I think resulted in a shooting in the parking lot; maybe 5 years ago, in Utah.

The Lord protects us,, gives us a general blanket, overall immunity; we must then do the foot work, which may even include bloodshed.

dc

Do a search. You will see quite a few miscellaneous incidents of violence. One near here, 3 were shot, one fatally leaving a dance or some such of the youth ward near Gardena. That just last year.

Those kind of people who fight over seats are the tares. ;)