Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

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LukeAir2008
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Post by LukeAir2008 »

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

Modern Revelation
It will now be suggested that modern revelation adds more details to the biblical testimony and favors the choice of the 1 b.c. birth date and a.d. 33 Resurrection date (Option C).

The Savior’s Birth Date

Since the organization of the Church on 6 April 1830, many members have believed that Jesus was born on 6 April 1 b.c. This belief is based on a revelation stating that the Church was organized “one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April.” (D&C 20:1.)

The wording used does not make it clear whether this verse was intended to mean that the day 6 April 1830 was precisely 1,830 years since the birth of Jesus, or whether it was simply a formal way of stating that the year was called 1830. Some Church leaders have argued for the literal interpretation that Jesus was born on 6 April 1 b.c. 37 They often note that the Lord pointed out “the precise day … to organize His Church.” (D&C 20, section heading.) Other Church leaders have not felt bound to accept Doctrine and Covenants 20:1 as accurate to the very day because “the Church has made no official declaration on the matter.” 38 (D&C 20:1)

Recently, two Presidents of the Church affirmed their belief that this verse does imply that April 6 (on our calendar) is the anniversary of the Lord’s birth. On 6 April 1973, President Harold B. Lee noted that that day was “the anniversary of the birth of the Savior” and then quoted Doctrine and Covenants 20:1 as a reference. (Ensign, July 1973, p. 2.) Then on 6 April 1980, President Spencer W. Kimball stated that Jesus was born on “this day 1,980 years ago.” (Ensign, May 1980, p. 54.)

While these statements may not have been intended as declarations of doctrine, they do add to the impression that the literal interpretation of Doctrine and Covenants 20:1 is generally accepted in the Church, favoring the acceptance of 6 April 1 b.c. as the Savior’s birthdate, consistent with Option C above.

Length of Life

The Book of Mormon is another witness to the length of the Savior’s life. First, it describes the appearance of a sign at night that heralded the Savior’s birth on the following day (3 Ne. 1:19) and states that the Nephites began to count time from the appearance of the sign (3 Ne. 2:7–8; see also Moro. 10:1).

The Book of Mormon also describes a great storm and earthquake that occurred for three hours (3 Ne. 8:19) at the time of the Savior’s death, as prophesied by Samuel the Lamanite (Hel. 14:21). Matthew also describes an earthquake in Jerusalem at the Savior’s death “about the ninth hour,” or 3:00 p.m. (Matt. 27:46–51), 39 which would be about 7:00 a.m. in Central America (compare 3 Ne. 10:9) due to the difference in longitude. 40

The Book of Mormon specifically states that the destruction happened on the fourth day of the thirty-fourth year. (3 Ne. 8:5.) Thus, if the Savior was born on the first day of the first Nephite year and died on the fourth day of their thirty-fourth year, then the length of his life was thirty-three Nephite years plus three days.

It follows, then, that if the length of the Nephite year were known, one could calculate an exact number of days for the length of the Savior’s life.

At first glance, the obvious candidate for a Nephite calendar would probably be the Jewish lunisolar calendar, because the Nephites came from Jerusalem and kept the law of Moses. However, that choice does not seem to fit the Nephite reckoning because they record that Jesus died on the fourth day of the Nephite month (3 Ne. 8:5), not on the fourteenth day (John 19:14). Thus, the Jewish lunisolar calendar is apparently excluded.

Orson Pratt was the first to suggest that the Nephite year would probably have been the 365-day year of the Mesoamerican calendar. 41 If this was the case, the length of the Savior’s life would have been 33 x 365 + 3 = 12,048 days. The Mesoamerican calendar yields this figure so easily because in that calendar the period of 33 years is not complicated by the addition of leap days. 42 On our Gregorian calendar, however, one leap day is added every 4 years—that is, 8 leap days in the 33-year period of Jesus’ life. Hence, 33 years plus 3 days on a Mesoamerican calendar would represent the same elapsed time as 33 years minus 5 days on our Gregorian calendar. 43

The conclusion from the Book of Mormon is twofold. First, the record states that Jesus was born in the first Nephite year and died early in the thirty-fourth. Thus, it is another witness to the biblical data which suggests that Jesus lived 33 years. The scripture is so clear that it seems to eliminate Option B discussed above, which would require the Savior to have lived 36–38 years.

Secondly, if one assumes (1) that Jesus was born on the first day of the Nephite first year, and (2) that the Nephites used a 365-day calendar, then Jesus lived 5 days less than 33 of our years, or 12,048 days.

Now it will be suggested that, given these assumptions, modern revelation supports the a.d. 33 Resurrection date derived above from the biblical evidence.

Resurrection Date

No date for the resurrection of Christ is explicitly given in modern revelation (though an 1833 statement attributed to the Prophet Joseph Smith notes that it was “just 1800 years since the Savior laid down his life,” 44 suggesting that he accepted the commonly held understanding that Jesus died in a.d. 33). Nevertheless, an implied witness can now be established from three of the conclusions discussed thus far:

1. Several latter-day statements support 1 b.c. as the year of Jesus’ birth. In addition, a precise day is indicated: 6 April 1 b.c.

2. The Book of Mormon implies that Jesus lived thirty-three years, confirming the biblical testimony. Moreover, an exact length for the Savior’s life can be suggested: 12,048 days.

3. The New Testament indicates a precise day that is most likely for the Savior’s resurrection: Sunday, 3 April a.d. 33.

An obvious question arises: Are all of these conclusions self-consistent? This question can be answered precisely. Counting 12,048 days (5 days less than 33 years) from Thursday, 6 April 1 b.c., brings one to Friday, 14 Nisan, 1 April a.d. 33—the exact Crucifixion date deduced from the Bible!

In other words, adding the length of Jesus’ life calculated from the Book of Mormon, to his birthdate as understood from the Doctrine and Covenants, results in a biblical death date, to the very day. This precise internal consistency between different books of scripture was noticed only recently. 45

That this Crucifixion date even falls within the same biblical year, a.d. 33, is impressive; that it falls also on a day that year that was a Friday and also 14 Nisan according to the Judean calendar seems beyond chance. 46Such interscriptural self-consistency in chronological details provides a second witness to the proposed Resurrection date of Sunday, 3 April a.d. 33.

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

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LukeAir2008 wrote:
Wilford wrote:
pjbrownie wrote:I've seen this fact that Adam was born in 3760 BC, converted at 4004 BC. Where do we find this stuff conclusively or is it all conjecture. If Adam were born in 3760 it would make the true year 2,000 almost 230 years to the future. Could this be possible? Are we waiting for an event that neither our children, grandchildren, or great-grandchildren will see? Can anyone help me out with this Hebrew calendar stuff. It 3760 BC Hebrew is 4004 BC Gregorian, how come the Hebrew year is 5770 and the Gregorian year is 2010? Something seems out of step for me.
Are you dating from Adam's birth or Adam's fall? Time didn't start until after the fall.
3760 BC came after 4004 BC. 2000 AD is based on Christ's birth in 1 BC so its totally unconnected to Adam's supposed birth date.

Its the date of the Fall which is relevant to the earths temporal existence and so if it took place in 4004 BC a period of six thousand years would take us to 1996 AD.

If Christ was born in 1 BC , received the Priesthood in 11 AD, and ascended back to his Father in 33 AD then the dates 2000 AD, 2011 AD and 2033 AD are all extremely relevant. :D
The 3760 BC date referred to above is the date of creation, according to Jewish calculation that many modern writers still refer to.

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LukeAir2008
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

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Hyrcanus wrote:
LukeAir2008 wrote:
3760 BC came after 4004 BC. 2000 AD is based on Christ's birth in 1 BC so its totally unconnected to Adam's supposed birth date.

Its the date of the Fall which is relevant to the earths temporal existence and so if it took place in 4004 BC a period of six thousand years would take us to 1996 AD.

If Christ was born in 1 BC , received the Priesthood in 11 AD, and ascended back to his Father in 33 AD then the dates 2000 AD, 2011 AD and 2033 AD are all extremely relevant. :D
The 3760 BC date referred to above is the date of creation, according to Jewish calculation that many modern writers still refer to.
Whatever it refers to doesn't change the fact that 3760 BC came after 4004 BC. Are you saying that Adam fell first and then was created afterwards? :roll:

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durangout
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

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Original_Intent wrote:Christ was born in 1 AD, not 1 BC. Just FYI.
1BC is my understanding as well. :)

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Post by Hyrcanus »

As to the date, the OP was asking about where the 3760 BC date came from, so I explained. The 4004 BC date comes from a completely different source, so it doesn't relate to the 3760 BC date. I'm not subscribing to a particular date. Most of the specific dating schemes are built on assumptions about several unknown variables, making guesses shaky at best. I think discussing them is interesting, I'm just discouraging anyone putting forward a date as a rock solid surety.

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LukeAir2008
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

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durangout wrote:
Original_Intent wrote:Christ was born in 1 AD, not 1 BC. Just FYI.
1BC is my understanding as well. :)
Thanks. I dont just make these things up. The Scriptures, the General Authorities and the law of mathematics all say that if in the year 1830 AD it was exactly 1830 years since Christ was born (D&C 20:1)then 1830 minus 1830 equals zero or 1 BC.
Last edited by LukeAir2008 on August 4th, 2010, 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Post by Hyrcanus »

I'm not trying to pass off falsehoods FWIW, I was explaining the question the OP asked. I realize 3760 BC comes after 4004 BC, I haven't suggested otherwise.

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Original_Intent
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

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I was not basing it on any calculations. I was basing it on the fact that "AD" stands for Anno Domini or "Year of our LORD". The Savior was born BY DEFINITION in 1 AD - the first Year of our Lord.

edit: I also suggest you look in 3rd Nephi Chapter 1 and read the footnote for *AD 1 at the time that the sign of Christ's birth was given.
Last edited by Original_Intent on August 4th, 2010, 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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LukeAir2008
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

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Church History & Modern Revelation, p. 231; Joseph Fielding Smith; 1940.

'We know that when Adam was placed on the earth it was pronounced good, and he as well as the earth was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body, but he had a spiritual body until it was changed by the fall. A spiritual body is one which is not quickened by blood, but by spirit. Before the fall, Adam had a physical, tangible body of flesh and bones, but it was not quickened by blood. The partaking of the forbidden fruit caused blood to exist in his body and thus the seeds of mortality were sown and his body then became temporal, or mortal.'

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Original_Intent
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Post by Original_Intent »

I think you should look at 3rd Nephi, chapter 1 and the footnote for 1 AD and then tell me the scriptures are on your side.
Last edited by Original_Intent on August 4th, 2010, 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

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THIRD NEPHI
THE BOOK OF NEPHI
THE SON OF NEPHI, WHO WAS THE SON OF HELAMAN
And Helaman was the son of Helaman, who was the son of Alma, who was the son of Alma, being a descendant of Nephi who was the son of Lehi, who came out of Jerusalem in the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, the king of Judah.
CHAPTER 1
Nephi, son of Helaman, departs out of the land, and his son Nephi keeps the records—Though signs and wonders abound, the wicked plan to slay the righteous—The night of Christ’s birth arrives—The sign is given and a new star arises—Lyings and deceivings increase, and the Gadianton robbers slaughter many. Between A.D. 1 and 4 1 Now it came to pass that the [b]*ninety and first year had passed away[/b] and it was asix hundred years from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem; and it was in the year that bLachoneus was the chief judge and the governor over the land.
2 And aNephi, the son of Helaman, had departed out of the land of Zarahemla, giving charge unto his son bNephi, who was his eldest son, concerning the cplates of brass, and dall the records which had been kept, and all those things which had been kept sacred from the departure of Lehi out of Jerusalem.
3 Then he adeparted out of the land, and bwhither he went, no man knoweth; and his son Nephi did keep the records in his stead, yea, the record of this people.
4 And it came to pass that in the commencement of the ninety and second year, behold, the prophecies of the prophets began to be fulfilled more fully; for there began to be agreater signs and greater miracles wrought among the people.
5 But there were some who began to say that the time was past for the words to be fulfilled, which were aspoken by Samuel, the Lamanite.
6 And they began to arejoice over their brethren, saying: Behold the time is past, and the words of Samuel are not fulfilled; therefore, your joy and your faith concerning this thing hath been vain.
7 And it came to pass that they did make a great uproar throughout the land; and the people who believed began to be very sorrowful, lest by any means those things which had been spoken might not come to pass.
8 But behold, they did watch steadfastly for athat day and that night and that day which should be as one day as if there were no night, that they might know that their faith had not been vain.
9 Now it came to pass that there was a day set apart by the aunbelievers, that all those who believed in those traditions should be bput to death except the csign should come to pass, which had been given by Samuel the prophet.
10 Now it came to pass that when Nephi, the son of Nephi, saw this wickedness of his people, his heart was exceedingly sorrowful.
11 And it came to pass that he went out and bowed himself down upon the earth, and cried mightily to his God in behalf of his people, yea, those who were about to be destroyed because of their faith in the tradition of their fathers.
12 And it came to pass that he cried mightily unto the Lord aall that day; and behold, the bvoice of the Lord came unto him, saying:
13 Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the asign be given, and on the bmorrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be cspoken by the mouth of my holy prophets.
14 Behold, I acome unto my own, to bfulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the cfoundation of the world, and to do the dwill, eboth fof the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given.
15 And it came to pass that the words which came unto Nephi were fulfilled, according as they had been spoken; for behold, at the going down of the asun there was bno darkness; and the people began to be astonished because there was no darkness when the night came.
16 And there were many, who had not believed the words of the prophets, who afell to the earth and became as if they were dead, for they knew that the great bplan of destruction which they had laid for those who believed in the words of the prophets had been frustrated; for the sign which had been given was already at hand.
17 And they began to know that the Son of God must shortly appear; yea, in fine, all the people upon the face of the whole earth from the awest to the east, both in the land north and in the land south, were so exceedingly astonished that they fell to the earth.
18 For they knew that the prophets had testified of these things for many years, and that the sign which had been given was already at hand; and they began to fear because of their iniquity and their unbelief.
19 And it came to pass that there was no darkness in all that night, but it was as light as though it was mid-day. And it came to pass that the sun did rise in the morning again, according to its proper order; and they knew that it was the day that the Lord should be aborn, because of the bsign which had been given.
20 And it had come to pass, yea, all things, every whit, according to the words of the prophets.
21 And it came to pass also that a new astar did appear, according to the word.
22 And it came to pass that from this time forth there began to be alyings sent forth among the people, by Satan, to harden their hearts, to the intent that they might not believe in those bsigns and wonders which they had seen; but notwithstanding these lyings and deceivings the cmore part of the people did believe, and were converted unto the Lord.
23 And it came to pass that Nephi went forth among the people, and also many others, baptizing unto repentance, in the which there was a great aremission of sins. And thus the people began again to have peace in the land.
24 And there were no contentions, save it were a few that began to preach, endeavoring to prove by the ascriptures that it was no more expedient to observe the law of Moses. Now in this thing they did err, having not understood the scriptures.
25 But it came to pass that they soon became converted, and were convinced of the error which they were in, for it was made known unto them that the law was not yet afulfilled, and that it must be fulfilled in every whit; yea, the word came unto them that it must be fulfilled; yea, that one jot or tittle should not pass away till it should all be fulfilled; therefore in this same year were they brought to a knowledge of their error and did bconfess their faults.
26 And thus the ninety and second year did pass away, bringing aglad tidings unto the people because of the signs which did come to pass, according to the words of the prophecy of all the holy prophets.
27 And it came to pass that the ninety and third year did also pass away in peace, save it were for the Gadianton robbers, who dwelt upon the amountains, who did infest the land; for so strong were their holds and their secret places that the people could not overpower them; therefore they did commit many murders, and did do much slaughter among the people.
28 And it came to pass that in the ninety and fourth year they began to increase in a great degree, because there were many dissenters of the Nephites who did flee unto them, which did cause much sorrow unto those Nephites who did remain in the land.
29 And there was also a cause of much sorrow among the Lamanites; for behold, they had many children who did grow up and began to wax strong in years, that they became for themselves, and were aled away by some who were bZoramites, by their lyings and their flattering words, to join those Gadianton robbers.
30 And thus were the Lamanites afflicted also, and began to decrease as to their faith and righteousness, because of the wickedness of the arising generation.
* VERSE 1 (A.D. 1).

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LukeAir2008
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

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Iit was decided AFTER Christ was born to refer to the years after his birth as AD, In the Year of our Lord, or After Christ etc. So 1 AD is one year AFTER Christ. 2010 AD is 2010 years after Christ's birth.

There is no year ZERO. It doesn't exist. The year before 1 AD is 1 BC. Its how the calendar is designed.

We believe that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea, April 6, B.C. 1. (Elder James E Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 1915, )

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

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OI is arguing that the calendar should be defined by its chosen terms. 1 AD should be the 1st year Christ was on the earth. LukeAir is pointing out that some of the apostles believe Christ was born 1 BC, based on their interpretation of D&C 20. You're arguing two different points though. The calendar may have been set up based on the premise that Christ was born in a particular year, but it was done with the best information available long after the original event. Christ may have actually been born in 6 BC, or 5 AD. Although it does defy the definition of the calendar terminology we use, we're not going to change the calendar to match the historically accurate date.

Similarly, Talmage's date is just his opinion. We've had Prophets comment on the date, but without indication as to whether it was by revelation or just their opinion. Both Hyrum M. Smith and Bruce R. McConkie have encouraged caution in insisting on a particular date. We have some historical facts that challenge a 1 BC (or 1 AD) date, such as the fact that Herod died in 4 BC. Demanding that someone come into compliance with your particular belief about Christ's birth date isn't useful without more solid information.

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

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Original_Intent wrote:You are right, Hyrcanus. But I also point to the reference in 3rd Nephi chapter 1 posted above.
I agree that is a point we should consider, but I don't think it settles the debate. The footnotes and references were added long after the fact and while they are really helpful, they're not binding. Still, someone way smarter then me put them in there, so they shouldn't be completely discarded.

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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Post by AngelPalmoni »

D&C 77:7 If you find the date of any of the seals you can find them all. If you find the beginning you can find the end. It is a pretty logical puzzle. But we have really crappy complex pieces.

look here for the answer

http://www.ldspalmoni.com/Angel_Palmoni ... me.html#16

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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Post by AngelPalmoni »

Foot Notes are not Doctrine... nor are they historical. Talmage could be wrong...

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