Thank you, Br. Lenox, for your thoughts too. I appreciate it.brlenox wrote: ↑July 22nd, 2017, 11:33 amIF you do not consider excommunication an open condemnation - I'm not sure what counts.underdog wrote: ↑July 21st, 2017, 10:09 pm Many are called, few are chosen. DC 121 was written to them.
And none of "the Brethren" have ever said officially that Denver is Korihorian! If he was so dangerous, why don't they openly condemn him? They forced a newly-installed stake president to excommunicate him WITHOUT A TRIAL AS STIPULATED by the D&C.
Denver was offered a trial. Denver rejected the traditional conditions of receiving a trial. Denver sought to interject an element of personal control by stipulating his rules for receipt of his trial - Denver wanted family members to attend. When you are called before a judge when is it common practice for the defendant to dictate the conditions of his presence? This is what control freaks do and is a principle exercised by Satan to interject a principle of rejection to provide an excuse to not be humble and contrite and willing to submit to the conditions that the Lord has established. Could Denver's family of attended? - perhaps but as a condition of Denver manifesting humility it would not be prudent but the very fact that Denver was not willing to comply to the wishes of his judges was fully manifest in his NEED to be in charge of a process in which he had no jurisdiction. Denver was proud. Denver was arrogant. Denver was not manifesting a repentant state of mind. Denver assured his excommunication by his actions and then wants to plead the martyrs cause. Denver was wrong. Denver was very wrong. You sustain a wicked man. Denver is that wicked man.
And would it matter even a bit if they did. People have taken much time here to illustrate the error of Denver's way's and subsequently your own arguments. You simply stiffen your neck in defiance and make all sorts of irrational claims - you and practically all followers of Denver's are in a state that it is practically impossible to detect truth. Thus it is of little worth to repeat an effort over and over that will simply be rejected. There is sufficient available that if any of Denver's followers want to hear the truth they can choose to do so. One in a thousand might be lucky enough to find their way back. IF you could detect the spirit of God, just listening to the confirming voice of the Holy Ghost when listening to the words of his chosen apostles and President Monson would be sufficient testimony of God's rejection of Denver and his sustainment of his chosen leaders...but you are beyond hearing.
It has nothing to do with "much talent" as you call it. It has to do with discernment. The discernment that is available to any member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. What you mean to say is that you are surprised that one who obviously exercises much intellect in his decision making paradigm has not made sufficient appeals to logic to think his way right out of the church. So is the potential of those who rely too much on talents of intellect and self determination to err and become so proud and so arrogant as to think they can decide of themselves what is right and what is wrong. All people need the spirit to do so and you have abandoned your guide.
You have primarily taught only one thing and you do that well. You have taught what it is when someone begins to follow the wrong guide and how it affects their demeanor and ability to see the truth. You have taught how deception when embraced can only lead to more deception. Hence you condemn everything about the church but play the facade of being true. In time that will cease and you will be exposed and excommunicated unless you can do better than Denver and manifest more humility than he could muster.
You have had quite a run here and as I stated very early on I think that is good as you are the single best example of why people should understand how important it is to sustain the brethren and flee from the likes of Denver Snuffer. This interaction has fed your own ego for the moment for all of the attention you have garnered from those hoping to persuade you back. While meanwhile you claim that only you are right, only you know while the multitude against you must be misled. It is ludicrous and sad.
Well, I must plead out of this discussion again for a second time. You have done well and I hope others can see enough to recognize yours is not the path to follow. Thank you for your contributions.
Since you're waging an information war on Denver, I think it's only fair to let the readers judge what you say of him, with what he actually said. You said this above:
I don't see how an objective person can conclude his case was anything but a witch hunt, directed by Elder Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve. And yet, Elder Nelson, nor any of the Brethren, ever had the courage or propriety to come out and say anything against what Denver taught. They worked their works in the darkness behind the scenes, bringing much dishonor to the Priesthood they claim to hold and the station they occupy.IF you do not consider excommunication an open condemnation - I'm not sure what counts.
Denver was offered a trial. Denver rejected the traditional conditions of receiving a trial. Denver sought to interject an element of personal control by stipulating his rules for receipt of his trial - Denver wanted family members to attend. When you are called before a judge when is it common practice for the defendant to dictate the conditions of his presence? This is what control freaks do and is a principle exercised by Satan to interject a principle of rejection to provide an excuse to not be humble and contrite and willing to submit to the conditions that the Lord has established. Could Denver's family of attended? - perhaps but as a condition of Denver manifesting humility it would not be prudent but the very fact that Denver was not willing to comply to the wishes of his judges was fully manifest in his NEED to be in charge of a process in which he had no jurisdiction. Denver was proud. Denver was arrogant. Denver was not manifesting a repentant state of mind. Denver assured his excommunication by his actions and then wants to plead the martyrs cause. Denver was wrong. Denver was very wrong. You sustain a wicked man. Denver is that wicked man.
There was nothing open about his excommunication. It's all been carefully documented with much detail (on Denver's blog and testified to by third party witnesses), even the culprits have been outed by name.
On the day after his excommunication, Denver wrote this letter to his stake president. Denver's words have the appearance and feel of refuting what you accused Denver of above. It's dated Sept 11, 2013. I see no arrogance. I see no pride. I see no nastiness or effort to exert unrighteous dominion or control, as you accuse Denver of. I don't see anything that he or his wife did or said that was wrong, or wicked. I think you malign a righteous man, even a man of God.
I quote Denver:
Denver wrote this 3 days before his imminent excommunication:Yesterday was the 40th anniversary of my baptism into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I marked my gratitude by giving a talk in Boise, Idaho. On my way to the meeting, at 10:30 yesterday morning, President Hunt called to tell me I'd been excommunicated. He emailed me on Monday and asked if we would like to come to the stake center that night (with the children) to hear and discuss the outcome. I replied as follows:
The paperwork will arrive sometime later. It was certainly symmetrical to have the news given exactly on the 40th anniversary of the occasion. Almost like a sign, really."President Hunt,
For clarification, we weren't of the conviction that the children should be at the disciplinary counsel to hear the "outcome." We had already discussed that at length in our family beforehand. We all were prepared for any outcome. What we are absolutely certain of was that they should be allowed to see the process as it took place.
In our discussions with them we talked of the Spirit that attends a disciplinary council. We discussed the format and the procedure. We reviewed the scriptures and what they say about disciplinary councils. We were certain this would offer them an opportunity to hear from people who disagree with their father and hear how other people interpret the scriptures and how they relate to the history of the church. We were looking forward to the opportunity for them to see the scriptures used by me and then by the members of the high council testify of gospel truths. The Spirit witnessed to Stephanie this would be a faith promoting meeting for them to attend. The outcome was a non-issue.
In any event, again we would like to thank you for your service. We know this has been difficult and bear no resentment for you or anyone involved. I am saddened, even ashamed that there wasn't an open process which allowed my children to have this important opportunity. I've prized the underlying principles of the gospel which involve persuasion, knowledge, meekness and avoid control, compulsion and dominion. I wanted my children to witness this glorious process in which men of good faith and belief come together to work through an important disagreement. I had wanted them to behold the Spirit leading to unity. Inasmuch as the kids are scattered, (Kylee went back to school this morning at 4 a.m., Benjamin and Kalisa live hours away and can't return because of work commitments), we see no need to meet to discuss the outcome. Please send the letter announcing my excommunication so we can end this tragic ordeal.
I meant what I testified to last night.
- Denver"
I saw another sign yesterday. A dove was waiting for me on the lawn at work. She didn't stir as I walked by her. But she did take note of me (and I of her).
Boise was a wonderful experience. Beautiful day. Great occasion. Joyful day, and gave me an opportunity to talk about the faith I very much believe in and will continue to practice.
The next talk will be in Idaho Falls. There are stake presidents there "warning" people in the church to not listen to me. They are preaching fear.
Christ instructed us not to fear. (D&C 68: 6.) Fear is the motivation of hell itself. (Moses 1: 20.) If you are fearful, then don't attend the talks.
I rejoice in liberty, because freedom to believe in Christ is liberty itself. (2 Cor. 3: 17.)
I am grateful to the LDS Church for providing to me the instructions, ordinances and scriptures. I believe the faith which was restored through Joseph. That hasn't, indeed can't, be taken away from me.
This doesn't sound like the spirit of an apostate, does it?Contentment
I've been reflecting on Mormonism. That joyful, confident, speculative religion given to mankind between 1820 to 1829, with all the potential vitality of a new movement. Unafraid, uncaptured by an institution, filled with the possibility of changing the world. A time before the adversary saw that inasmuch as you can buy anything in this world with money, you could also buy Mormonism with money.
That's the trick. Turn the religion into a "thing." Because "things" can be bought and sold. They are merchandise. Mormonism wasn't to be a thing. It was to be intangible, a spiritual revival, otherworldly.
But those sorts of incohate notions cannot long survive without a sponsoring entity; an organized host to carry it onward. And so what was an idea at first, took second-place behind an emerging organization with a hierarchy, controls and assignments. That "thing" was subject to control, could be sued, threatened, and captured by the monetary needs of the thing itself.
When I joined Mormonism it was essentially confined to a single, triumphant "thing." The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints owned it, brought it to me, packaged it for presentation through missionaries, and delivered it with flannel-board discussions and film strip displays. It was homely and crude. But that didn't matter. It was the substance, the doctrine, the answers it offered that captured my heart.
I've loved every minute of Mormonism. From the initial conversion to the latest constrictions, it has been a wonderful journey for which I have nothing but gratitude...
Be of good cheer. All of you. Whether you hate me, think me an apostate, authentic, a lunatic, pretender, inspired, misled, devout, or merely inconvenient, I'd recommend you try to find joy in this life. Think deeply. Ponder carefully. Search into meanings. Look up at night and search for the constellations and planets. Note their movements. Try to watch the occasional sunrise. God's fingerprints are all over this creation. Envy the birds, feel pity for the insects, taste and smell and listen and rejoice. You are alive. And for so long as you live, the possibilities remain endless. You possess choice, which in itself is godly.
A Latter-day Saint today, perhaps a Cast-away Saint tomorrow. But always a Mormon.
I remain content with my faith.
Here's the deal with Denver. Judge carefully you must. Denver said in Talk #10, page 4. You can hear it in his own words by clicking here: https://youtu.be/ZA1XJl8zP-4?t=1087:
I think this is what a true servant sounds like. He quotes the Lord in quotation marks. He is bold. And he unequivocally draws the line. He says he speaks for the Lord. "Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same," as you all are fond of quoting. He challenges detractors to "Bring it!" He has the same spirit as J. Reuben Clark who said, and I'll plug Denver's first person "I" into this quote: "“If I have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If I have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”I have never said this publicly, but because of what I think will ensue after this talk I am going to say it, not for my sake, and certainly not for the sake of anyone who believes the truth or who has the Spirit, but I say it only to benefit those who may view things completely otherwise.
The Lord has said to me in His own voice, "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you." Therefore, I want to caution those who disagree with me, to feel free, to feel absolutely free to make the case against what I say. Feel free to disagree, and make your contrary arguments. If you believe I err, then expose the error and denounce it. But take care; take care about what you say concerning me for your sake, not for mine. I live with constant criticism. I can take it. But I do not want you provoking Divine ire by unfortunately chosen words if I can persuade you against it.
He throws down the gauntlet. He's bold like Joseph Smith, but says this with love and meekness.
I've taken his challenge. I've planted the word (Alma 32), and experimented with it, and I find it delicious, and found it sprouting in my soul. That is fruit. An increased faith is fruit. Repentance in fruit.