Arenera,Arenera wrote: ↑July 12th, 2017, 8:49 amWhat was the fruit that Jesus offered? His message. The miracles. Agreed!underdog wrote: ↑July 12th, 2017, 8:25 amYou didn't answer the question. As usual.Arenera wrote: ↑July 12th, 2017, 8:07 amActually, I don't see your approach helping anyone come closer to Christ. You just rail on dead leaders, current leaders and members.underdog wrote: ↑July 11th, 2017, 8:00 pm
Arenera,
Thank you.
Could a better question be: Regardless of the existence of any allegation, if there is evidence of apostasy should we as members examine it to see if it's true? Or should we turn a blind eye? Esp if the truth, even if it's inconvenient, brings us closer to Christ.
Will you kindly answer that question?
You don't preach Christ, that is a way to know your message is bunk.
If not "railing on" people is your requirement, then don't read Matthew 23, because that will dissuade you from accepting Christ's message.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/23.39?lang=eng
What was the fruit that Joseph Smith offered? The Book of Mormon. Agreed!
What is the fruit that you offer? Nothing, just railing. Sorry I perceived that way. If you knew me you'd know that is not my reputation. I'm the type that will go the extra mile to call some company's employee's boss and formally compliment the employee for a job well done. So please know I'm a positive person who holds back on criticism and is overflowing with praise. Obviously, I have room to improve. And I think I'll make it a point to say something positive to each of my kids today. I think you said you served a mission. What approach were you taught? I was taught to lead with the BoM. Flood the earth with the BoM. In the last 6 months of my mission a light came on. I started to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified and found the key to successful missionary work. Did you try to logic investigators? Reason and logic is how I came to the table to meet with the missionaries. Because of reason, let's call it that, I came to realize that I hoped that there was a God. After I became converted by the Spirit, I had quite the learning curve in every regard. I suppose it's accurate to say that I frequently used reason, in combo with the scriptures. In the end, I used my testimony to bring in the Spirit. So bearing testimony was a powerful tool. I shared my testimony briefly in a comment just above. I hope that was received well. Lectures on Faith (Lecture 5th at http://lecturesonfaith.com/5/) teach that the Holy Spirit is the mind of God. And we know God is reason. We become one with God by obtaining His mind. One thing that the remnant movement has done is reconnect me with reason, but man's reasoning is different from God's reasoning. I do seek to have the mind of Christ and to be at one with Him. I fail miserably at this. I feel a fool before God, truth be told.
Today our missionaries give their message, which includes a living prophet, and also invite the investigators to read the Book of Mormon. Investigators who become converts usually have a spiritual experience and know the message is true, so they join the church. This is exactly what happened to me. Well, what happened is the missionaries first recommended Alma 32, which I ate up. I had been thinking about those things already for months, and to see them in writing was a witness. They taught me Moroni's promise in Moroni 10. That made perfect sense -- the part which when the witness comes you will know the BoM is true and Joseph was true and Jesus was truly the Son of God and Savior of the world. They also taught me, and I accepted without reservation, that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would also be true. I accepted this at face value down until just recently when I realized that is absolutely EXCLUDED FROM Moroni's promise. That's fine -- because the promise AS GIVEN still worked a miracle in my life. I tested it, and the power of the Holy Ghost came upon me, as promised. So I know. The fruit of that promise is that I know Jesus is my Savior, the BoM is true, and Joseph was chosen of God! That's priceless knowledge. It's more precious than life. I thank God for this spiritual knowledge and for the missionaries who were instruments in the hands of God to bring me this precious testimony.
You are trying to logic the forum into your belief set. That doesn't work. Perhaps you are right. So I've shared my testimony. I suspect the closet remnants are watching to see how successful you will be. You've forgot the main ingredient, good fruit. See Alma 32. I love Alma 32, and I recommend the principles contained therein to you. Plant the good word that I've brought to you. Let it take root. See if begins to grow and becomes delicious to you. You say that I'm focusing on too much on "railing." At your suggestion, let me try doing it in a way that is "preaching Jesus Christ and Him crucified."
I can phrase it like this. Lamoni's father (Alma 22) was willing to give away all his sins to know the Lord. "If there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee..." Sin stands in the way of us knowing God. In essence, let's not mince words, I have called you all to repentance. You asked for me to preach Christ. Let me do it then. I pray for the Holy Ghost to guide my words and to bear witness to your spirit that the truth of what I say will be carried unto your heart (2 Nephi 33:1). I pray you receive it. Please pay attention to the Holy Ghost as you read this.
I invite you to give away your sins of idolatry to know the Lord. You may object and say you're not guilty of idolatry. Let me call it "tradition". How many times does the BoM say it's imperative to be "convinced concerning the wicked traditions of [our] fathers"? In our conversations, the main sin (sacred cow) you must let go of to come closer to Christ is to let go of any wicked tradition that stands in the way of coming to "know Christ." Knowing Christ is eternal life. So I humbly ask you to consider that it is indeed a sin to put faith in man or men who claim that they can't lead you astray because the Lord won't permit it. This is priestcraft. If the Lord will never permit the prophet to lead you astray, then the Lord is abrogating the prophet’s free agency. The prophet has to be free to mislead you, just as you have to be free to be misled. Otherwise, the Lord would be compelling the prophet’s actions, making him nothing but a puppet. Our Father in Heaven "permitted" (to use WW's word from OD1) Lucifer to mislead BILLIONS of His children. The cost was catastrophic. That was WITH Jesus personally lobbying for Heavenly Father's plan. Obviously, Satan's pitch sounded very appealing, enough to deceive billions of spirits. I testify that we must let go of this LDS false tradition that has taken deep root (since 1981 especially). This heresy has been repeated and taught so much (Alma 30:53) that many of us actually believe it, even though it destroys the prophet's own agency and has created an "all is well in Zion" culture.
Things are moving very rapidly now. This sin should be repented of immediately. Do not wait. Do not procrastinate. "All is not well in Zion." Those words were spoken by Nephi TO US and FOR US. It was a warning to us. Christ wants us to come to him. Have faith in HIM, believe in HIM, repent (esp of the sin I have highlighted), be baptized by water and of the spirit, and always become as a little child that He may teach you of His ways.
The "good seed", the word (Alma 32), that I testify anew to you is that Christ will never lead you astray. We can trust Him. He employs no servant at the gate (2 Nephi 9:41). We can plug directly into the True Vine and have Him reveal His will to us by the Holy Ghost. The good word is that He's no respecter of persons and any of us can come unto Him and partake of eternal life.
I know these things are true. I leave this with you, believing He would have me say these things, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
The question of Denver Snuffer is a whole other question. I'm amazed at how the tables have been turned. For missionary-mind Mormons reading this, you will understand the irony. How many Christians (active in their own denomination) have you encountered who could not accept the principles of the apostasy and the testimony of Joseph Smith. Some very few can. Some can admit that apostasy occurred throughout Biblical history. But most of them go bat-crap crazy when you bring up Joseph Smith and read to them his testimony that Christian ministers are apostate. I read this to my loving Grandmother who has a great love for Jesus (active in her church, even till this day) years ago, that Jesus told Joseph "that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”"
She exploded in anger. I had never seen her angry like that before and never since. But at that moment she lost her cool. That was decades ago. But for years, I've seen similar reactions as Joseph's testimony of modern day apostasy is applied to people's beloved ministers/ prophets. To say slaughtering a sacred cow is a sensitive topic is the understatement of the year. It doesn't matter if a Christian minister or Mormon apostle is sincere in believing they are God's spokesman. They must actually be sent. It doesn't matter if WE are sincere but ignorant in our belief that a certain man is God's spokesman. What matters is what is true. We can't be saved in ignorance.
As for 'closet remnant' people, that's an interesting term. Coming to a unity of faith I suppose may be impossible, which means Zion isn't possible. So for Zion to even take root, there needs to be a remnant gathered who believe Jesus is King and requires no mediator for He is the Great Mediator, and they ultimately must all agree who His legal administrator is. In Enoch's day, that was Enoch. In our day, that is a question mark in the minds of many. In my humble opinion, a smart way to analyze it is the process of elimination. Whomever is found guilty of practicing unrighteous dominion can be eliminated from the list. I honestly and sincerely beg for evidence that Denver is practicing UD. I'm not aware of any, which means I can't cross him off the list. Others who are guilty can be crossed off the list.
Yes, you make some good points here which I mostly agree with. See blue text above.