Identifying and Coping with "Unrighteous Dominion"

[underdog]

Many are called, few are chosen. DC 121 was written to them.


And none of "the Brethren" have ever said officially that Denver is Korihorian! If he was so dangerous, why don't they openly condemn him? They forced a newly-installed stake president to excommunicate him WITHOUT A TRIAL AS STIPULATED by the D&C.

IF you do not consider excommunication an open condemnation - I'm not sure what counts.

Denver was offered a trial. Denver rejected the traditional conditions of receiving a trial. Denver sought to interject an element of personal control by stipulating his rules for receipt of his trial - Denver wanted family members to attend. When you are called before a judge when is it common practice for the defendant to dictate the conditions of his presence? This is what control freaks do and is a principle exercised by Satan to interject a principle of rejection to provide an excuse to not be humble and contrite and willing to submit to the conditions that the Lord has established. Could Denver's family of attended? - perhaps but as a condition of Denver manifesting humility it would not be prudent but the very fact that Denver was not willing to comply to the wishes of his judges was fully manifest in his NEED to be in charge of a process in which he had no jurisdiction. Denver was proud. Denver was arrogant. Denver was not manifesting a repentant state of mind. Denver assured his excommunication by his actions and then wants to plead the martyrs cause. Denver was wrong. Denver was very wrong. You sustain a wicked man. Denver is that wicked man.

(Just like the Brethren don't bother lifting a finger to put Denver's teachings in their place. They, of course, have no Gospel-based refutation. They choose silence. This in and of itself is evidence against them.)

And would it matter even a bit if they did. People have taken much time here to illustrate the error of Denver's way's and subsequently your own arguments. You simply stiffen your neck in defiance and make all sorts of irrational claims - you and practically all followers of Denver's are in a state that it is practically impossible to detect truth. Thus it is of little worth to repeat an effort over and over that will simply be rejected. There is sufficient available that if any of Denver's followers want to hear the truth they can choose to do so. One in a thousand might be lucky enough to find their way back. IF you could detect the spirit of God, just listening to the confirming voice of the Holy Ghost when listening to the words of his chosen apostles and President Monson would be sufficient testimony of God's rejection of Denver and his sustainment of his chosen leaders...but you are beyond hearing.

I'm very surprised by your inability, despite much talent, to see the simple one-step logical fallacy I'm pointing out to you. It's not 2 or 3 steps ahead. It's just seeing one step ahead. It can only be explained because of fervent belief.

It has nothing to do with "much talent" as you call it. It has to do with discernment. The discernment that is available to any member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. What you mean to say is that you are surprised that one who obviously exercises much intellect in his decision making paradigm has not made sufficient appeals to logic to think his way right out of the church. So is the potential of those who rely too much on talents of intellect and self determination to err and become so proud and so arrogant as to think they can decide of themselves what is right and what is wrong. All people need the spirit to do so and you have abandoned your guide.

I'll point out where your logical fallacy gets you into trouble ... above.

You have primarily taught only one thing and you do that well. You have taught what it is when someone begins to follow the wrong guide and how it affects their demeanor and ability to see the truth. You have taught how deception when embraced can only lead to more deception. Hence you condemn everything about the church but play the facade of being true. In time that will cease and you will be exposed and excommunicated unless you can do better than Denver and manifest more humility than he could muster.

You have had quite a run here and as I stated very early on I think that is good as you are the single best example of why people should understand how important it is to sustain the brethren and flee from the likes of Denver Snuffer. This interaction has fed your own ego for the moment for all of the attention you have garnered from those hoping to persuade you back. While meanwhile you claim that only you are right, only you know while the multitude against you must be misled. It is ludicrous and sad.

Well, I must plead out of this discussion again for a second time. You have done well and I hope others can see enough to recognize yours is not the path to follow. Thank you for your contributions.

Thank you, Br. Lenox, for your thoughts too. I appreciate it.

Since you're waging an information war on Denver, I think it's only fair to let the readers judge what you say of him, with what he actually said. You said this above:

IF you do not consider excommunication an open condemnation - I'm not sure what counts.

Denver was offered a trial. Denver rejected the traditional conditions of receiving a trial. Denver sought to interject an element of personal control by stipulating his rules for receipt of his trial - Denver wanted family members to attend. When you are called before a judge when is it common practice for the defendant to dictate the conditions of his presence? This is what control freaks do and is a principle exercised by Satan to interject a principle of rejection to provide an excuse to not be humble and contrite and willing to submit to the conditions that the Lord has established. Could Denver's family of attended? - perhaps but as a condition of Denver manifesting humility it would not be prudent but the very fact that Denver was not willing to comply to the wishes of his judges was fully manifest in his NEED to be in charge of a process in which he had no jurisdiction. Denver was proud. Denver was arrogant. Denver was not manifesting a repentant state of mind. Denver assured his excommunication by his actions and then wants to plead the martyrs cause. Denver was wrong. Denver was very wrong. You sustain a wicked man. Denver is that wicked man.

I don't see how an objective person can conclude his case was anything but a witch hunt, directed by Elder Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve. And yet, Elder Nelson, nor any of the Brethren, ever had the courage or propriety to come out and say anything against what Denver taught. They worked their works in the darkness behind the scenes, bringing much dishonor to the Priesthood they claim to hold and the station they occupy.

There was nothing open about his excommunication. It's all been carefully documented with much detail (on Denver's blog and testified to by third party witnesses), even the culprits have been outed by name.

On the day after his excommunication, Denver wrote this letter to his stake president. Denver's words have the appearance and feel of refuting what you accused Denver of above. It's dated Sept 11, 2013. I see no arrogance. I see no pride. I see no nastiness or effort to exert unrighteous dominion or control, as you accuse Denver of. I don't see anything that he or his wife did or said that was wrong, or wicked. I think you malign a righteous man, even a man of God.

I quote Denver:

Yesterday was the 40th anniversary of my baptism into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I marked my gratitude by giving a talk in Boise, Idaho. On my way to the meeting, at 10:30 yesterday morning, President Hunt called to tell me I'd been excommunicated. He emailed me on Monday and asked if we would like to come to the stake center that night (with the children) to hear and discuss the outcome. I replied as follows:

"President Hunt,

For clarification, we weren't of the conviction that the children should be at the disciplinary counsel to hear the "outcome." We had already discussed that at length in our family beforehand. We all were prepared for any outcome. What we are absolutely certain of was that they should be allowed to see the process as it took place.

In our discussions with them we talked of the Spirit that attends a disciplinary council. We discussed the format and the procedure. We reviewed the scriptures and what they say about disciplinary councils. We were certain this would offer them an opportunity to hear from people who disagree with their father and hear how other people interpret the scriptures and how they relate to the history of the church. We were looking forward to the opportunity for them to see the scriptures used by me and then by the members of the high council testify of gospel truths. The Spirit witnessed to Stephanie this would be a faith promoting meeting for them to attend. The outcome was a non-issue.

In any event, again we would like to thank you for your service. We know this has been difficult and bear no resentment for you or anyone involved. I am saddened, even ashamed that there wasn't an open process which allowed my children to have this important opportunity. I've prized the underlying principles of the gospel which involve persuasion, knowledge, meekness and avoid control, compulsion and dominion. I wanted my children to witness this glorious process in which men of good faith and belief come together to work through an important disagreement. I had wanted them to behold the Spirit leading to unity. Inasmuch as the kids are scattered, (Kylee went back to school this morning at 4 a.m., Benjamin and Kalisa live hours away and can't return because of work commitments), we see no need to meet to discuss the outcome. Please send the letter announcing my excommunication so we can end this tragic ordeal.

I meant what I testified to last night.

- Denver"

The paperwork will arrive sometime later. It was certainly symmetrical to have the news given exactly on the 40th anniversary of the occasion. Almost like a sign, really.

I saw another sign yesterday. A dove was waiting for me on the lawn at work. She didn't stir as I walked by her. But she did take note of me (and I of her).

Boise was a wonderful experience. Beautiful day. Great occasion. Joyful day, and gave me an opportunity to talk about the faith I very much believe in and will continue to practice.

The next talk will be in Idaho Falls. There are stake presidents there "warning" people in the church to not listen to me. They are preaching fear.

Christ instructed us not to fear. (D&C 68: 6.) Fear is the motivation of hell itself. (Moses 1: 20.) If you are fearful, then don't attend the talks.

I rejoice in liberty, because freedom to believe in Christ is liberty itself. (2 Cor. 3: 17.)

I am grateful to the LDS Church for providing to me the instructions, ordinances and scriptures. I believe the faith which was restored through Joseph. That hasn't, indeed can't, be taken away from me.

Denver wrote this 3 days before his imminent excommunication:

Contentment

I've been reflecting on Mormonism. That joyful, confident, speculative religion given to mankind between 1820 to 1829, with all the potential vitality of a new movement. Unafraid, uncaptured by an institution, filled with the possibility of changing the world. A time before the adversary saw that inasmuch as you can buy anything in this world with money, you could also buy Mormonism with money.

That's the trick. Turn the religion into a "thing." Because "things" can be bought and sold. They are merchandise. Mormonism wasn't to be a thing. It was to be intangible, a spiritual revival, otherworldly.

But those sorts of incohate notions cannot long survive without a sponsoring entity; an organized host to carry it onward. And so what was an idea at first, took second-place behind an emerging organization with a hierarchy, controls and assignments. That "thing" was subject to control, could be sued, threatened, and captured by the monetary needs of the thing itself.

When I joined Mormonism it was essentially confined to a single, triumphant "thing." The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints owned it, brought it to me, packaged it for presentation through missionaries, and delivered it with flannel-board discussions and film strip displays. It was homely and crude. But that didn't matter. It was the substance, the doctrine, the answers it offered that captured my heart.

I've loved every minute of Mormonism. From the initial conversion to the latest constrictions, it has been a wonderful journey for which I have nothing but gratitude...

Be of good cheer. All of you. Whether you hate me, think me an apostate, authentic, a lunatic, pretender, inspired, misled, devout, or merely inconvenient, I'd recommend you try to find joy in this life. Think deeply. Ponder carefully. Search into meanings. Look up at night and search for the constellations and planets. Note their movements. Try to watch the occasional sunrise. God's fingerprints are all over this creation. Envy the birds, feel pity for the insects, taste and smell and listen and rejoice. You are alive. And for so long as you live, the possibilities remain endless. You possess choice, which in itself is godly.

A Latter-day Saint today, perhaps a Cast-away Saint tomorrow. But always a Mormon.

I remain content with my faith.

This doesn't sound like the spirit of an apostate, does it?

Here's the deal with Denver. Judge carefully you must. Denver said in Talk #10, page 4. You can hear it in his own words by clicking here: https://youtu.be/ZA1XJl8zP-4?t=1087:

I have never said this publicly, but because of what I think will ensue after this talk I am going to say it, not for my sake, and certainly not for the sake of anyone who believes the truth or who has the Spirit, but I say it only to benefit those who may view things completely otherwise.
The Lord has said to me in His own voice, "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you." Therefore, I want to caution those who disagree with me, to feel free, to feel absolutely free to make the case against what I say. Feel free to disagree, and make your contrary arguments. If you believe I err, then expose the error and denounce it. But take care; take care about what you say concerning me for your sake, not for mine. I live with constant criticism. I can take it. But I do not want you provoking Divine ire by unfortunately chosen words if I can persuade you against it.

I think this is what a true servant sounds like. He quotes the Lord in quotation marks. He is bold. And he unequivocally draws the line. He says he speaks for the Lord. "Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same," as you all are fond of quoting. He challenges detractors to "Bring it!" He has the same spirit as J. Reuben Clark who said, and I'll plug Denver's first person "I" into this quote: "“If I have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If I have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”

He throws down the gauntlet. He's bold like Joseph Smith, but says this with love and meekness.

I've taken his challenge. I've planted the word (Alma 32), and experimented with it, and I find it delicious, and found it sprouting in my soul. That is fruit. An increased faith is fruit. Repentance in fruit.

[underdog]

To Irrelevant,

Great question. That was a question I entertained quite regularly a year ago (and still do much less frequently). Here are some thoughts and justifications for me to attending:

• In MY unit, I'm not aware of any Satan-worshipping or SRA (Satanic Ritual Abuse) activity, like happens out in Utah. See Glen Pace memo. If I was aware of that in my stake or ward, I'd probably think twice about participating. http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no80.htm has the memo that Elder Pace wrote. The cover-up of this memo is yet ANOTHER piece of hardcore, irrefutable evidence of apostasy of the Brethren. I love Ezra Taft Benson. He's my favorite of all the presidents (excluding Joseph Smith). The cover-up of WIDESPREAD Satanic Ritual Abuse in the Church was under his watch, but he had already lost his faculties, if I recall, because he fell down stairs and had some operation on his brain (by Elder Nelson). Never the same since then. The responsibility would then fall to Monson and Hinckley, who WERE in the their right minds, and it's of course under THEIR leadership that the UD has spread like wildfire (those 2 may have been responsible for the WW's excerpts being added in 1981 and perhaps they covered it up from the eyes of their Brethren at the time). The fact of planned and carefully coordinated infiltration by Satan's forces should be an obvious "given". The Church, like any organized and influential institution, esp the Lord's Church, would be TARGET #1 by Satan. Joseph was a target of the Satanic, secret combinations, and ended up dead. Benson knew all too well about these organized, evil forces infiltrating governments as he spent decades warning people about this, so he knew the dangers of infiltration applied equally and ESPECIALLY to the Church. My guess is under Benson's leadership, this was coming to a head (evidenced by the Pace Memo and directed no doubt by Pres Benson), and the events surrounding Benson's incapacitation/ neutralization were very likely not accidental. That's a whole other topic and one I'm not an expert on and frankly there's no point in researching it, given what has happened in the last 2 years, with the Church chasing out of its ranks a righteous man sent by God.

• I go for my kids. We have good youth in our unit.

• I go to serve. My wife serves. My wife wants to go too (for our kids).

• I go for the missionary program. Despite church weaknesses, I think the mission experience has great benefits for maturing a young adult.

• I have an opportunity to preserve the Restoration. That is an inspiring goal to have and worthy. Joseph Smith appreciates the attempt, and I believe the Lord does too. The Lord may have abandoned the top leaders (because they abandoned Him through UD -- Amen to their priesthood), but not everyone else (except anybody who practices UD as defined by the Lord in DC 121:37, 41).

• The rank and file LDS people, like me, and my friends, are good people. I was an idolater. So I understand. I was blinded by the craftiness of men. I would have appreciated somebody trying to wake me up.

underdog,

When you were an idolater and living in apostasy, did God forsake you and abandon you?

-Finrock

Finrock, I never felt forsaken or abandoned. I didn't even realize I was an idolater. Does a Christian who has rejected the BoM feel like he was abandoned or forsaken by God? I doubt it. They'd think such a notion was preposterous.

If there's any forsaking or abandoning, it's me doing that to God. But gratefully, whenever I turn to Him, He is always there to greet me.

Thanks for the response. Let me change focus a bit for a moment...

I'm a little unclear as to what your position is. Do you believe that Denver Snuffer speaks for Jesus Christ, like a modern day "Moses"? Yes I do. Do you esteem him to be greater or more enlightened than those who are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators in the LDS Church? Most definitely. He is a true prophet. Is it your position that the LDS Church no longer serves the purpose of bringing souls to Christ? The Mormon Church does much good. In as much as people in the Church preach Jesus Christ and the Restored Gospel, they do the work the work of Christ. Did Denver Snuffer "wrest" the keys from the Brethren or anything like that? It has been said that is what happened. Whether he is a John the Baptist type or the Mighty and Strong one, or the Davidic servant, I do not know. Denver says it's foolishness to state anybody is that servant. The work must be done FIRST, and then the world shall know.

-Finrock

Hello Finrock,

My response in blue above.

Here are two testimonies of Denver Snuffer:

I bear solemn testimony that I have received the message by God's voice of their truthfulness, and also of His desire for us to believe in and act upon these things that have been spoken. I stand as another witness with Denver, in the law of witnesses, that these things are true. And I expect to be held accountable for this in the days and the eternity to come, before God and my Father and to all men. I bear this testimony humbly and solemnly, but in the power of the most holy priesthood. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.

Keith Henderson

And...

I know God the Father and Jesus Christ live. I have seen them. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I have been in his presence also. I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. I have had my eyes opened and my life changed through its message. I also know from my own sense of reason, from the testimony of the Holy Ghost, and from God declaring it to me by His own Voice that Denver C. Snuffer, Jr. is an honest messenger, sent by Him, and telling the truth.

Please do not ignore what is written in this book (Preserving the Restoration, which is the 10 talks). Please do not take this warning lightly. I implore all who read this testimony to repent and return to Jesus Christ, the God of Israel and savior of the world. Receive the words of a true prophet, but follow no man! Do not allow any man or group to come between you and your Savior. To the extent you do so, you are laboring in idolatry and you will damn yourself and any who follow you in doing likewise. (D&C 76:100).

Louis Naegle

Thanks,

Underdog

[underdog]

Thank you for sharing that research. I appreciate the time, and the quotes.

In Sept there is an historic meeting taking place.

Details are here: http://www.covenantofchristconference.com

There currently is underway a major review of the Restoration scriptures. In other words, what should be included or excluded from our canon of scripture. I'm not attached to any remnant group or fellowship, but I'm following it from afar and trying to keep up with the scripture review.

My understanding is that the BoM will be received by covenant, among other things.

This will be one of the most historic weekends in the history of the Restoration, indeed in all of recorded sacred history going back to Moses' work where he gave us the initial books of the OT.

One other thing...where is the information on the scripture review? Who is conducting this effort?

Br. Lenox,

All info is here: http://scriptures.info/Home/Conferences

There are a bunch of tireless volunteers. Everybody and anybody is encouraged to submit proposals for inclusion in what will be voted on and sustained as scripture. The Lord's blessing and approval will be sought and confirmed.

"what should be included or excluded from our canon of scripture" and "Everybody and anybody is encouraged to submit proposals for inclusion in what will be voted on and sustained as scripture."

Who will be bound by this? My understanding is only those who sustain them and enter into the covenant. Denver said yesterday, "Man does not make covenants with God. God offers a covenant and people either accept or reject God’s offer. But until God offers, mankind can do nothing to create a covenant with or for God." Will you consider yourself bound? Yes, if I receive a covenant which I believe God is offering. Will you continue to maintain membership in the Church while adopting a new set (or at least revised) of scripture? Yes, for the time being. I anticipate an opportunity of Zion-minded people to be gathering. The revisions, coming from a group based on opposition to the leadership of the LDS church, will undoubtedly widen the chasm between the two groups. Do you foresee a point where it becomes impossible for you to straddle it? Yes, I think that is inevitable. Denver had a vision which addresses your question:

THE TRAIN
Vision related by Denver Snuffer, Jr at a Doctrine of Christ Conference Boise, Idaho September 11, 2016.

I recently had a vision that began as a dream. In it I was traveling in a small car up a mountain road. The road was steep, but straight, and it grew steeper as it climbed upward. On the left side of the road there was a railroad track running parallel. As we drove the small car upward, I noticed a sharp bend in the railroad tracks ahead that interrupted the otherwise straight course of the line. I saw a train approaching from uphill in the distance coming downhill rapidly, and it seemed to be going far too fast to safely negotiate the sharp bend in the tracks. The small car we drove was not quite to the bend when the rushing train hit the bend, leapt from the tracks, and violently crashed in front of us. Our little car narrowly escaped a collision, as the train's wreckage spread about. As the small car continued upward, the train crash worsened, at first beside the car, and then as we accelerated, closely behind us. The little car got ahead of the continuing wreck of the moving train and I could see the train was full of passengers who, uphill from the wreckage, were enjoying themselves. They were paying no attention to the disaster already befalling their train. We began to shout out the windows of our car, trying to warn the occupants in the doomed train, but they gave no heed. They laughed and partied aboard the train with no concern for their impending destruction.

I could see the wreckage behind me in the mirror as the violence of the wreck threw shattered railcars about, some onto the road behind us, making the road now impassable. We were powerless to save those aboard the train because they would not hear the warnings we shouted to them. As we reached the top of the mountain, the last of the train went by and I stopped the little car. We got out and stood in the roadway looking down the mountain and watched as the last of the train was destroyed. While mourning over the many lives that had been lost, I awoke from the dream and sat up on my bed, but the vision continued.

I next saw in the distance, beyond the wreckage, an overpowering flood, as if it was a great fire, consuming and destroying all the country coming from the east. Although we had survived the train wreck, it appeared certain we would all be killed in the coming flood. I looked about for any sign of hope we might survive and noticed beside the roadway a great rock with an opening. I led the small party to the rock and discovered the opening was for a cavern that went upward within the shelter of the rock. We entered the cave, and climbed upward. Inside the cavity of the rock our small group waited as the flood approached, unsure whether we would live or die. The noise of the destruction outside was deafening as the flood approached, and then the opening of the cavern went black and we were left in complete silence and darkness. We waited. In a few moments the light returned, but silence remained. After a few more moments our small group emerged from the rock's cavern to see what had transpired with the world.

The scene of destruction was astounding. The entire landscape was transformed. It was destroyed. The wrecked train, the tracks, and the road had all been consumed. Everything appeared barren. Then suddenly new life began to spring forth in the widespread desolation. Barren trunks brought out new limbs, blossoms, and leaves. Flowers sprang from the earth. As we watched, the earth was quickly transformed, and in a short time the denuded desolation was full of life, beauty, and fertility, much greater than before the flood of fire had destroyed the landscape.

At this point the vision ended and I was given the interpretation: The train is the false religions of the world. The occupants of the small car are those who repent and accept baptism. The protective rock with the cavern is Christ.

If Snuffer told you to leave the Church and join his group, would you? In my opinion. Denver would not make such a request. I think a gathering will definitely happen. But Zion, or the New Jerusalem is to be a voluntary gathering. It's not going to be as easy as a leader issuing a call to gather, as we Mormons are wired up to think will happen. "When the prophet gives the order, I'll be ready to leave home and go."

Have you taken your issues with the leadership of the Church to your stake president, as we are encouraged to do in General Conference? "Those who may have opposed any of the proposals should contact their stake presidents." President Uchtdorf, in April. No I haven't. I anticipate doing this eventually.

My comments in blue above.

[Finrock]

underdog,

When you were an idolater and living in apostasy, did God forsake you and abandon you?

-Finrock

Finrock, I never felt forsaken or abandoned. I didn't even realize I was an idolater. Does a Christian who has rejected the BoM feel like he was abandoned or forsaken by God? I doubt it. They'd think such a notion was preposterous.

If there's any forsaking or abandoning, it's me doing that to God. But gratefully, whenever I turn to Him, He is always there to greet me.

Thanks for the response. Let me change focus a bit for a moment...

I'm a little unclear as to what your position is. Do you believe that Denver Snuffer speaks for Jesus Christ, like a modern day "Moses"? Yes I do. Do you esteem him to be greater or more enlightened than those who are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators in the LDS Church? Most definitely. He is a true prophet. Is it your position that the LDS Church no longer serves the purpose of bringing souls to Christ? The Mormon Church does much good. In as much as people in the Church preach Jesus Christ and the Restored Gospel, they do the work the work of Christ. Did Denver Snuffer "wrest" the keys from the Brethren or anything like that? It has been said that is what happened. Whether he is a John the Baptist type or the Mighty and Strong one, or the Davidic servant, I do not know. Denver says it's foolishness to state anybody is that servant. The work must be done FIRST, and then the world shall know.

-Finrock

Hello Finrock,

My response in blue above.

Here are two testimonies of Denver Snuffer:

I bear solemn testimony that I have received the message by God's voice of their truthfulness, and also of His desire for us to believe in and act upon these things that have been spoken. I stand as another witness with Denver, in the law of witnesses, that these things are true. And I expect to be held accountable for this in the days and the eternity to come, before God and my Father and to all men. I bear this testimony humbly and solemnly, but in the power of the most holy priesthood. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.

Keith Henderson

And...

I know God the Father and Jesus Christ live. I have seen them. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I have been in his presence also. I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. I have had my eyes opened and my life changed through its message. I also know from my own sense of reason, from the testimony of the Holy Ghost, and from God declaring it to me by His own Voice that Denver C. Snuffer, Jr. is an honest messenger, sent by Him, and telling the truth.

Please do not ignore what is written in this book (Preserving the Restoration, which is the 10 talks). Please do not take this warning lightly. I implore all who read this testimony to repent and return to Jesus Christ, the God of Israel and savior of the world. Receive the words of a true prophet, but follow no man! Do not allow any man or group to come between you and your Savior. To the extent you do so, you are laboring in idolatry and you will damn yourself and any who follow you in doing likewise. (D&C 76:100).

Louis Naegle

Thanks,

Underdog

Thanks for the response. See, I respect and appreciate the role of those who are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators within the Church. I have a testimony, by the power of the Holy Ghost that many of them are true prophets of God, that they have the spirit of Prophecy, which is a testimony of Jesus through the power of the Holy Ghost. I don't know by the power of the Holy Ghost that all of them are. I can conceive of some within the body of the leadership of this Church, including those who are called as Apostles, to be actively against Zion or to be living in a state of apostasy. However, it is not my place to judge them or to condemn them. In fact, I place myself in danger of being damned for doing so.

That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I sustain those who are in leadership positions because I love them. I want them to succeed. I know they are men, mortal, just like I. I have lived in a state of apostasy and I have been idolatrous, yet, God did not abandon me. In fact, He loved me, blessed me, and continued to uphold me even though I was His enemy. These men, even though they make mistakes, they are my brothers and I desire nothing but the best for them. I don't want to be a stumbling block or a hinderance to them. I pray for them and ask that God keeps them in His way, just as I would want others to pray for me and to have God keep me in His way. That these men are fallible and that they have made mistakes and that the members of the Church are in large degree idolatrous and are not fulfilling the greater law, or living the Order of Enoch, or the United Order, does not mean that we need another, fallible man, to come take the reigns and set things straight. It also doesn't mean that God has abandoned His Church completely or that He has cast the Church off and that it no longer fulfills its role of bringing souls to Christ.

You see, I don't esteem the leaders of this Church above that of another man because thus saith the Lord,

Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think himself above another

Denver Snuffer is fallible man and he is no greater than those who are called to be prophets, seers, and revelators of the LDS Church. God doesn't esteem him above these other men and women. Denver Snuffer isn't a better person, he isn't a better prophet, he isn't greater than or more competent than those who we sustain as leaders of the LDS Church. I'm not saying he is less than either. But, it is folly and sinful to esteem Denver above that of another man. There is no institution on this planet that you can go to that will resolve the issues that you claim to have with the LDS Church. You are just replacing one arm of flesh with another. God is greater than the Mormon paradigm and greater than the Denver Snuffer paradigm. He is all in all, working through His agents all through-out the Earth. Christ can be found here and there. I have no prejudice against Denver. I read many of his words and I felt the Holy Ghost. However, the Spirit showed me that beneath all of his words, there is an underlying vanity and elitism. The Spirit distinctly lead me away from Denver because his movement doesn't represent anything greater than what can be found in the LDS Church. There is a great unity that comes from having the pure love of Christ within us. Zion will be composed of people from all walks of life. Zion will be composed of those people who are willing to live in peace with others who are different from them. God is the source of variety and differences as there is beauty in variety and God is manifested in all sorts of ways. In time those who have the Spirit of Christ will come together as they learn to love others, respect others, and desire the best for others, regardless of their differences and their fallen natures.

In any case, I don't condemn Denver Snuffer. I don't believe him being excommunicated, by itself, means that he has no hope for eternal life. I don't pretend to know his standing before God and I have no animosity or ill will towards him or any one of his followers. I believe Denver Snuffer has a purpose and role to play. I truly hope the best for him. I agree with you in that in time all things will be made manifest. I know for certainty, however, through the power of the Holy Ghost, that God does not want me to abandon the LDS Church and that God is still working with this organization of people and that the Church will be redeemed through the power of Christ and that my role and my calling is to stay here and to faithfully execute the tasks given to me by the Spirit.

-Finrock

[Jonesy]

One other thing...where is the information on the scripture review? Who is conducting this effort?

Br. Lenox,

All info is here: http://scriptures.info/Home/Conferences

There are a bunch of tireless volunteers. Everybody and anybody is encouraged to submit proposals for inclusion in what will be voted on and sustained as scripture. The Lord's blessing and approval will be sought and confirmed.

"what should be included or excluded from our canon of scripture" and "Everybody and anybody is encouraged to submit proposals for inclusion in what will be voted on and sustained as scripture."

Who will be bound by this? My understanding is only those who sustain them and enter into the covenant. Denver said yesterday, "Man does not make covenants with God. God offers a covenant and people either accept or reject God’s offer. But until God offers, mankind can do nothing to create a covenant with or for God." Will you consider yourself bound? Yes, if I receive a covenant which I believe God is offering. Will you continue to maintain membership in the Church while adopting a new set (or at least revised) of scripture? Yes, for the time being. I anticipate an opportunity of Zion-minded people to be gathering. The revisions, coming from a group based on opposition to the leadership of the LDS church, will undoubtedly widen the chasm between the two groups. Do you foresee a point where it becomes impossible for you to straddle it? Yes, I think that is inevitable. Denver had a vision which addresses your question:

THE TRAIN
Vision related by Denver Snuffer, Jr at a Doctrine of Christ Conference Boise, Idaho September 11, 2016.

I recently had a vision that began as a dream. In it I was traveling in a small car up a mountain road. The road was steep, but straight, and it grew steeper as it climbed upward. On the left side of the road there was a railroad track running parallel. As we drove the small car upward, I noticed a sharp bend in the railroad tracks ahead that interrupted the otherwise straight course of the line. I saw a train approaching from uphill in the distance coming downhill rapidly, and it seemed to be going far too fast to safely negotiate the sharp bend in the tracks. The small car we drove was not quite to the bend when the rushing train hit the bend, leapt from the tracks, and violently crashed in front of us. Our little car narrowly escaped a collision, as the train's wreckage spread about. As the small car continued upward, the train crash worsened, at first beside the car, and then as we accelerated, closely behind us. The little car got ahead of the continuing wreck of the moving train and I could see the train was full of passengers who, uphill from the wreckage, were enjoying themselves. They were paying no attention to the disaster already befalling their train. We began to shout out the windows of our car, trying to warn the occupants in the doomed train, but they gave no heed. They laughed and partied aboard the train with no concern for their impending destruction.

I could see the wreckage behind me in the mirror as the violence of the wreck threw shattered railcars about, some onto the road behind us, making the road now impassable. We were powerless to save those aboard the train because they would not hear the warnings we shouted to them. As we reached the top of the mountain, the last of the train went by and I stopped the little car. We got out and stood in the roadway looking down the mountain and watched as the last of the train was destroyed. While mourning over the many lives that had been lost, I awoke from the dream and sat up on my bed, but the vision continued.

I next saw in the distance, beyond the wreckage, an overpowering flood, as if it was a great fire, consuming and destroying all the country coming from the east. Although we had survived the train wreck, it appeared certain we would all be killed in the coming flood. I looked about for any sign of hope we might survive and noticed beside the roadway a great rock with an opening. I led the small party to the rock and discovered the opening was for a cavern that went upward within the shelter of the rock. We entered the cave, and climbed upward. Inside the cavity of the rock our small group waited as the flood approached, unsure whether we would live or die. The noise of the destruction outside was deafening as the flood approached, and then the opening of the cavern went black and we were left in complete silence and darkness. We waited. In a few moments the light returned, but silence remained. After a few more moments our small group emerged from the rock's cavern to see what had transpired with the world.

The scene of destruction was astounding. The entire landscape was transformed. It was destroyed. The wrecked train, the tracks, and the road had all been consumed. Everything appeared barren. Then suddenly new life began to spring forth in the widespread desolation. Barren trunks brought out new limbs, blossoms, and leaves. Flowers sprang from the earth. As we watched, the earth was quickly transformed, and in a short time the denuded desolation was full of life, beauty, and fertility, much greater than before the flood of fire had destroyed the landscape.

At this point the vision ended and I was given the interpretation: The train is the false religions of the world. The occupants of the small car are those who repent and accept baptism. The protective rock with the cavern is Christ.

If Snuffer told you to leave the Church and join his group, would you? In my opinion. Denver would not make such a request. I think a gathering will definitely happen. But Zion, or the New Jerusalem is to be a voluntary gathering. It's not going to be as easy as a leader issuing a call to gather, as we Mormons are wired up to think will happen. "When the prophet gives the order, I'll be ready to leave home and go."

Have you taken your issues with the leadership of the Church to your stake president, as we are encouraged to do in General Conference? "Those who may have opposed any of the proposals should contact their stake presidents." President Uchtdorf, in April. No I haven't. I anticipate doing this eventually.

My comments in blue above.

That's really interesting. I've never heard of that dream until now. I actually had a dream in 2015, posted on a blog, of him driving a car and purposely crashing it. Not even kidding.

Edit: Checking in my journal, the dream was actually on November 28, 2012. I posted about it in 2015.

[underdog]

Finrock, I never felt forsaken or abandoned. I didn't even realize I was an idolater. Does a Christian who has rejected the BoM feel like he was abandoned or forsaken by God? I doubt it. They'd think such a notion was preposterous.

If there's any forsaking or abandoning, it's me doing that to God. But gratefully, whenever I turn to Him, He is always there to greet me.

Thanks for the response. Let me change focus a bit for a moment...

I'm a little unclear as to what your position is. Do you believe that Denver Snuffer speaks for Jesus Christ, like a modern day "Moses"? Yes I do. Do you esteem him to be greater or more enlightened than those who are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators in the LDS Church? Most definitely. He is a true prophet. Is it your position that the LDS Church no longer serves the purpose of bringing souls to Christ? The Mormon Church does much good. In as much as people in the Church preach Jesus Christ and the Restored Gospel, they do the work the work of Christ. Did Denver Snuffer "wrest" the keys from the Brethren or anything like that? It has been said that is what happened. Whether he is a John the Baptist type or the Mighty and Strong one, or the Davidic servant, I do not know. Denver says it's foolishness to state anybody is that servant. The work must be done FIRST, and then the world shall know.

-Finrock

Hello Finrock,

My response in blue above.

Here are two testimonies of Denver Snuffer:

I bear solemn testimony that I have received the message by God's voice of their truthfulness, and also of His desire for us to believe in and act upon these things that have been spoken. I stand as another witness with Denver, in the law of witnesses, that these things are true. And I expect to be held accountable for this in the days and the eternity to come, before God and my Father and to all men. I bear this testimony humbly and solemnly, but in the power of the most holy priesthood. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.

Keith Henderson

And...

I know God the Father and Jesus Christ live. I have seen them. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I have been in his presence also. I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. I have had my eyes opened and my life changed through its message. I also know from my own sense of reason, from the testimony of the Holy Ghost, and from God declaring it to me by His own Voice that Denver C. Snuffer, Jr. is an honest messenger, sent by Him, and telling the truth.

Please do not ignore what is written in this book (Preserving the Restoration, which is the 10 talks). Please do not take this warning lightly. I implore all who read this testimony to repent and return to Jesus Christ, the God of Israel and savior of the world. Receive the words of a true prophet, but follow no man! Do not allow any man or group to come between you and your Savior. To the extent you do so, you are laboring in idolatry and you will damn yourself and any who follow you in doing likewise. (D&C 76:100).

Louis Naegle

Thanks,

Underdog

Thanks for the response. See, I respect and appreciate the role of those who are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators within the Church. I have a testimony, by the power of the Holy Ghost that many of them are true prophets of God, that they have the spirit of Prophecy, which is a testimony of Jesus through the power of the Holy Ghost. The scripture says in Rev 19:10: "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." I think a "testimony of Jesus" refers to something more than a spiritual feeling. These servants in Rev 19 knew Jesus, they saw Him, thus they had a "testimony" of Him. They heard His sure word of prophecy.I don't know by the power of the Holy Ghost that all of them are. I can conceive of some within the body of the leadership of this Church, including those who are called as Apostles, to be actively against Zion or to be living in a state of apostasy. (That's very interesting. That means you reject WW's added excerpts to OD1 in 1981 as an apostate precept.) However, it is not my place to judge them or to condemn them. In fact, I place myself in danger of being damned for doing so. I would agree with you IF they were true servants chosen and sent by the Father, you would be damned for condemning them. But if you "follow" their counsel when they are blind, then you damn yourself. Also, it I believe it IS our place and duty to judge / discern if they are sheep or wolves, wheat or tares. We must condemn error. It's not our place to judge their eternal judgement, but we must judge their acts and teachings in the here and now. Thus I have entered the list of their acts of apostasy to at least publish upon the housetops the facts. Let each man or woman decide for themselves.

That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I sustain those who are in leadership positions because I love them. I want them to succeed. Me too! I know they are men, mortal, just like I. I have lived in a state of apostasy and I have been idolatrous, yet, God did not abandon me. In fact, He loved me, blessed me, and continued to uphold me even though I was His enemy. These men, even though they make mistakes, they are my brothers and I desire nothing but the best for them. Me too. I don't want to be a stumbling block or a hinderance to them. Me either. I pray for them and ask that God keeps them in His way, just as I would want others to pray for me and to have God keep me in His way. Me too! That these men are fallible and that they have made mistakes and that the members of the Church are in large degree idolatrous and are not fulfilling the greater law, or living the Order of Enoch, or the United Order, does not mean that we need another, fallible man, to come take the reigns and set things straight. However, Joseph taught this: "It is in the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood." It also doesn't mean that God has abandoned His Church completely or that He has cast the Church off and that it no longer fulfills its role of bringing souls to Christ. Unfortunately we have many scriptures that indicate this is what has happened. I've quoted them in many places above. The Nephites and Jaredites are two examples illustrating what happened when the people abandoned Christ. The Spirit will not always strive with man.
When that day comes, destruction knocks at the door.

You see, I don't esteem the leaders of this Church above that of another man because thus saith the Lord,

Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think himself above another

Denver Snuffer is fallible man and he is no greater than those who are called to be prophets, seers, and revelators of the LDS Church. God doesn't esteem him above these other men and women. And yet, God DOES choose and send messengers. Those chosen from the foundation of the world. But none of us are denied coming to Him through faith Denver Snuffer isn't a better person, he isn't a better prophet, he isn't greater than or more competent than those who we sustain as leaders of the LDS Church. I'm not saying he is less than either. But, it is folly and sinful to esteem Denver above that of another man. There is no institution on this planet that you can go to that will resolve the issues that you claim to have with the LDS Church. I agree. The solution or truth lies OUTSIDE any institution. Institutions can be infiltrated and corrupted. The great and abominable whore has done this already, as Satan aptly states in the Temple. "And with that enmity..." You are just replacing one arm of flesh with another. God is greater than the Mormon paradigm and greater than the Denver Snuffer paradigm. Agreed. You sound like Denver. We can't put God in a box. He is all in all, working through His agents all through-out the Earth. Christ can be found here and there. I have no prejudice against Denver. I read many of his words and I felt the Holy Ghost. However, the Spirit showed me that beneath all of his words, there is an underlying vanity and elitism. The Spirit distinctly lead me away from Denver because his movement doesn't represent anything greater than what can be found in the LDS Church. We here agree to disagree. I think it's like night and day. There is a great unity that comes from having the pure love of Christ within us. Zion will be composed of people from all walks of life. Zion will be composed of those people who are willing to live in peace with others who are different from them. God is the source of variety and differences as there is beauty in variety and God is manifested in all sorts of ways. In time those who have the Spirit of Christ will come together as they learn to love others, respect others, and desire the best for others, regardless of their differences and their fallen natures.

In any case, I don't condemn Denver Snuffer. I don't believe him being excommunicated, by itself, means that he has no hope for eternal life. The LDS Church/ tradition/ Handbook 1 teaches he's been cast out and lost any chance of exaltation. You do know this I assume? But you I believe speak the truth. I don't pretend to know his standing before God and I have no animosity or ill will towards him or any one of his followers. I believe Denver Snuffer has a purpose and role to play. I truly hope the best for him. I agree with you in that in time all things will be made manifest. I know for certainty, however, through the power of the Holy Ghost, that God does not want me to abandon the LDS Church and that God is still working with this organization of people and that the Church will be redeemed through the power of Christ and that my role and my calling is to stay here and to faithfully execute the tasks given to me by the Spirit.

-Finrock

My response in red text above.

[Finrock]

Thanks for the response. Let me change focus a bit for a moment...

I'm a little unclear as to what your position is. Do you believe that Denver Snuffer speaks for Jesus Christ, like a modern day "Moses"? Yes I do. Do you esteem him to be greater or more enlightened than those who are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators in the LDS Church? Most definitely. He is a true prophet. Is it your position that the LDS Church no longer serves the purpose of bringing souls to Christ? The Mormon Church does much good. In as much as people in the Church preach Jesus Christ and the Restored Gospel, they do the work the work of Christ. Did Denver Snuffer "wrest" the keys from the Brethren or anything like that? It has been said that is what happened. Whether he is a John the Baptist type or the Mighty and Strong one, or the Davidic servant, I do not know. Denver says it's foolishness to state anybody is that servant. The work must be done FIRST, and then the world shall know.

-Finrock

Hello Finrock,

My response in blue above.

Here are two testimonies of Denver Snuffer:

I bear solemn testimony that I have received the message by God's voice of their truthfulness, and also of His desire for us to believe in and act upon these things that have been spoken. I stand as another witness with Denver, in the law of witnesses, that these things are true. And I expect to be held accountable for this in the days and the eternity to come, before God and my Father and to all men. I bear this testimony humbly and solemnly, but in the power of the most holy priesthood. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.

Keith Henderson

And...

I know God the Father and Jesus Christ live. I have seen them. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I have been in his presence also. I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. I have had my eyes opened and my life changed through its message. I also know from my own sense of reason, from the testimony of the Holy Ghost, and from God declaring it to me by His own Voice that Denver C. Snuffer, Jr. is an honest messenger, sent by Him, and telling the truth.

Please do not ignore what is written in this book (Preserving the Restoration, which is the 10 talks). Please do not take this warning lightly. I implore all who read this testimony to repent and return to Jesus Christ, the God of Israel and savior of the world. Receive the words of a true prophet, but follow no man! Do not allow any man or group to come between you and your Savior. To the extent you do so, you are laboring in idolatry and you will damn yourself and any who follow you in doing likewise. (D&C 76:100).

Louis Naegle

Thanks,

Underdog

Thanks for the response. See, I respect and appreciate the role of those who are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators within the Church. I have a testimony, by the power of the Holy Ghost that many of them are true prophets of God, that they have the spirit of Prophecy, which is a testimony of Jesus through the power of the Holy Ghost. The scripture says in Rev 19:10: "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." I think a "testimony of Jesus" refers to something more than a spiritual feeling. These servants in Rev 19 knew Jesus, they saw Him, thus they had a "testimony" of Him. They heard His sure word of prophecy.I don't know by the power of the Holy Ghost that all of them are. I can conceive of some within the body of the leadership of this Church, including those who are called as Apostles, to be actively against Zion or to be living in a state of apostasy. (That's very interesting. That means you reject WW's added excerpts to OD1 in 1981 as an apostate precept.) However, it is not my place to judge them or to condemn them. In fact, I place myself in danger of being damned for doing so. I would agree with you IF they were true servants chosen and sent by the Father, you would be damned for condemning them. But if you "follow" their counsel when they are blind, then you damn yourself. Also, it I believe it IS our place and duty to judge / discern if they are sheep or wolves, wheat or tares. We must condemn error. It's not our place to judge their eternal judgement, but we must judge their acts and teachings in the here and now. Thus I have entered the list of their acts of apostasy to at least publish upon the housetops the facts. Let each man or woman decide for themselves.

That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I sustain those who are in leadership positions because I love them. I want them to succeed. Me too! I know they are men, mortal, just like I. I have lived in a state of apostasy and I have been idolatrous, yet, God did not abandon me. In fact, He loved me, blessed me, and continued to uphold me even though I was His enemy. These men, even though they make mistakes, they are my brothers and I desire nothing but the best for them. Me too. I don't want to be a stumbling block or a hinderance to them. Me either. I pray for them and ask that God keeps them in His way, just as I would want others to pray for me and to have God keep me in His way. Me too! That these men are fallible and that they have made mistakes and that the members of the Church are in large degree idolatrous and are not fulfilling the greater law, or living the Order of Enoch, or the United Order, does not mean that we need another, fallible man, to come take the reigns and set things straight. However, Joseph taught this: "It is in the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood." It also doesn't mean that God has abandoned His Church completely or that He has cast the Church off and that it no longer fulfills its role of bringing souls to Christ. Unfortunately we have many scriptures that indicate this is what has happened. I've quoted them in many places above. The Nephites and Jaredites are two examples illustrating what happened when the people abandoned Christ. The Spirit will not always strive with man.
When that day comes, destruction knocks at the door.

You see, I don't esteem the leaders of this Church above that of another man because thus saith the Lord,

Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think himself above another

Denver Snuffer is fallible man and he is no greater than those who are called to be prophets, seers, and revelators of the LDS Church. God doesn't esteem him above these other men and women. And yet, God DOES choose and send messengers. Those chosen from the foundation of the world. But none of us are denied coming to Him through faith Denver Snuffer isn't a better person, he isn't a better prophet, he isn't greater than or more competent than those who we sustain as leaders of the LDS Church. I'm not saying he is less than either. But, it is folly and sinful to esteem Denver above that of another man. There is no institution on this planet that you can go to that will resolve the issues that you claim to have with the LDS Church. I agree. The solution or truth lies OUTSIDE any institution. Institutions can be infiltrated and corrupted. The great and abominable whore has done this already, as Satan aptly states in the Temple. "And with that enmity..." You are just replacing one arm of flesh with another. God is greater than the Mormon paradigm and greater than the Denver Snuffer paradigm. Agreed. You sound like Denver. We can't put God in a box. He is all in all, working through His agents all through-out the Earth. Christ can be found here and there. I have no prejudice against Denver. I read many of his words and I felt the Holy Ghost. However, the Spirit showed me that beneath all of his words, there is an underlying vanity and elitism. The Spirit distinctly lead me away from Denver because his movement doesn't represent anything greater than what can be found in the LDS Church. There is a great unity that comes from having the pure love of Christ within us. Zion will be composed of people from all walks of life. Zion will be composed of those people who are willing to live in peace with others who are different from them. God is the source of variety and differences as there is beauty in variety and God is manifested in all sorts of ways. In time those who have the Spirit of Christ will come together as they learn to love others, respect others, and desire the best for others, regardless of their differences and their fallen natures.

In any case, I don't condemn Denver Snuffer. I don't believe him being excommunicated, by itself, means that he has no hope for eternal life. I don't pretend to know his standing before God and I have no animosity or ill will towards him or any one of his followers. I believe Denver Snuffer has a purpose and role to play. I truly hope the best for him. I agree with you in that in time all things will be made manifest. I know for certainty, however, through the power of the Holy Ghost, that God does not want me to abandon the LDS Church and that God is still working with this organization of people and that the Church will be redeemed through the power of Christ and that my role and my calling is to stay here and to faithfully execute the tasks given to me by the Spirit.

-Finrock

My response in red text above.

Yes, all the Prophets point to Christ. That is their job. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. A prophet of God does not replace Him. Once we have found Jesus, we listen to Him. Prophet's job is done.

Our faith begins by the testimony of one who has experienced God. A true prophet will continuously work to lead others to Christ and away from himself. The prophet is after all just testifying of what he knows about God and his experiences with how God has saved him. A true prophet knows he is nothing. If we don't have the knowledge a prophet does and we feel the Spirit in their words then we listen to them and begin to experiment upon their testimony. We can continue to temporarily put trust in them and in their counsel if needed but ultimately a true prophet will want you to go to Christ. Once a true prophet sees you are with Christ, his job with you is done. You are with Christ. What better teacher can you have at this point? What more could a prophet give you that the Savior cannot? The prophet's job is done.

As was stated by someone on the forum once that most people need a here and now mortal man to follow and I appreciate that perspective. I would not be where I am at today without the help of some very good priesthood leaders and other people. My bishop for example is a wonderful man who has assisted me greatly in learning about Jesus Christ and with helping to guide me through some difficult times in my life. I have been at a point in my life when I did not have faith in Christ and I did not believe in Him or in His atonement. I was glad to have a person I could go to and speak to because I did not feel that God was available to me. Because I felt I needed a proxy, I had a proxy and this has been what I had needed at that time and it ultimately lead me to where I am today. I would never want to take that away from someone who needs it and who are in that position.

However, eventually, we must have our own experiences with God. There is no doubt in my mind that many of the LDS Leaders today, including many who are currently sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators, are indeed true prophets of Jesus Christ.

But, being a prophet of Jesus Christ does not mean that you are the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or that you have replaced another prophet. You can be a seer, a revelator, or a prophet without being a leader in the Church. You can be a leader in the Church and be sustained as a prophet, seer, and a revelator, yet not be one. Now, if a man has been set apart for this duty, why would I abandon him as opposed to sustaining him, when he stumbles or falls? Wouldn't it be more charitable for me to continue to testify of Christ and to show an outpouring of love to my brother? I seek to have him fulfill his high calling until he gets chosen? Or, should I begin to ridicule, to mock, to tear down, and to take advantage of my brother's weakness and suppose to elevate myself at his expense? I can point out the truth that I know, support it, and sustain it, without bringing down my brother. I can allow my brother, who has been given a stewardship, to fulfill his stewardship. I should not pretend to be able to take over the stewardship of another because they have faltered here or there. I can be a prophet of God, yet not be the President of the Church. In fact, I am a prophet of Jesus Christ, but I have no ambitions, intent, or desires to try to tell the Church leadership how they ought to function and what they ought to do. God's kingdom and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the same. The Church of the First Born encompasses the LDS Church and the LDS Church functions as a means to bring people to the Church of the Firstborn. Yes, we are to howl and to sound the trumpet and to warn our neighbors of what we have seen and of what we know, but that doesn't mean that we separate ourselves and/or try to set ourselves up to be someone to be followed. True prophets will always point others to Christ and away from themselves.

As I've said before, I know that God doesn't esteem one man greater than another and that we are all equal in the eyes of God. I understand that the purpose of ANY prophet is the lead me to Christ. I understand and hope that the prophets recognized by the body of the Church will lead me to Jesus Christ.

But, my religion is not following the prophets. I don't want to follow the Prophet or prophets, per se, I want to follow Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "Come, follow me". I am hoping that the prophets will show me how to get to Jesus Christ. Once I am with Jesus Christ, then I thank the prophets for their help and I start helping others come to Christ too.

I leave the administration of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to the President of the Church, but the Church is really just there to facilitate my worship of Jesus Christ. It is a tool to lead me to Christ and to allow me to become more like Christ by serving and loving others.

However, I do not venerate the apostles. From what I can gather, they wouldn't want me to and in fact they seem to be telling me to stop using them as a crutch and to go to Christ Himself.

The LDS Church is fulfilling its purpose and doing what it is suppose to do. Any organization of a group of people will have mixed in it the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. I don't care where you go, you can't escape it. Denver does it, you do it, I do it, the LDS Church does it, it is every where. Once we have taken the Holy Spirit as our guide and we maintain a remission of our sins by keeping the commandments of God, we can hear the voice of the Spirit and it will often surprise us where we hear it and where we don't. I listen to all men and try to find the voice of the Spirit in their words. If it is there and I hear it, I accept their words. There is not doubt in my mind, because I have experienced it, that God is speaking through many of the LDS leadership today as well as He is speaking through many others who are not leaders or who are not even a part of the LDS Church. Denver is just one voice among many voices. If Denver speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost, he is speaking for God. If Denver doesn't, then he isn't speaking for God. Denver is not a special messenger who was sent to take the reigns from the LDS Church. I won't follow him just as I won't follow any man. I follow Jesus Christ and I have take the Holy Spirit as my guide. The LDS Church is a wonderful organization of people where I can be of aid, helping others to come to Christ. There is much work to be done here and I am happy to serve in the stewardship I have been given and to respect the stewardship that others have been given, doing whatever I can to help bring about Zion. God will redeem Zion.

-Finrock

[Arenera]

My oh my, dissidents and non-denominationals.

[underdog]

Hello Finrock,

My response in blue above.

Here are two testimonies of Denver Snuffer:



And...



Thanks,

Underdog

Thanks for the response. See, I respect and appreciate the role of those who are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators within the Church. I have a testimony, by the power of the Holy Ghost that many of them are true prophets of God, that they have the spirit of Prophecy, which is a testimony of Jesus through the power of the Holy Ghost. The scripture says in Rev 19:10: "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." I think a "testimony of Jesus" refers to something more than a spiritual feeling. These servants in Rev 19 knew Jesus, they saw Him, thus they had a "testimony" of Him. They heard His sure word of prophecy.I don't know by the power of the Holy Ghost that all of them are. I can conceive of some within the body of the leadership of this Church, including those who are called as Apostles, to be actively against Zion or to be living in a state of apostasy. (That's very interesting. That means you reject WW's added excerpts to OD1 in 1981 as an apostate precept.) However, it is not my place to judge them or to condemn them. In fact, I place myself in danger of being damned for doing so. I would agree with you IF they were true servants chosen and sent by the Father, you would be damned for condemning them. But if you "follow" their counsel when they are blind, then you damn yourself. Also, it I believe it IS our place and duty to judge / discern if they are sheep or wolves, wheat or tares. We must condemn error. It's not our place to judge their eternal judgement, but we must judge their acts and teachings in the here and now. Thus I have entered the list of their acts of apostasy to at least publish upon the housetops the facts. Let each man or woman decide for themselves.

That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I sustain those who are in leadership positions because I love them. I want them to succeed. Me too! I know they are men, mortal, just like I. I have lived in a state of apostasy and I have been idolatrous, yet, God did not abandon me. In fact, He loved me, blessed me, and continued to uphold me even though I was His enemy. These men, even though they make mistakes, they are my brothers and I desire nothing but the best for them. Me too. I don't want to be a stumbling block or a hinderance to them. Me either. I pray for them and ask that God keeps them in His way, just as I would want others to pray for me and to have God keep me in His way. Me too! That these men are fallible and that they have made mistakes and that the members of the Church are in large degree idolatrous and are not fulfilling the greater law, or living the Order of Enoch, or the United Order, does not mean that we need another, fallible man, to come take the reigns and set things straight. However, Joseph taught this: "It is in the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood." It also doesn't mean that God has abandoned His Church completely or that He has cast the Church off and that it no longer fulfills its role of bringing souls to Christ. Unfortunately we have many scriptures that indicate this is what has happened. I've quoted them in many places above. The Nephites and Jaredites are two examples illustrating what happened when the people abandoned Christ. The Spirit will not always strive with man.
When that day comes, destruction knocks at the door.

You see, I don't esteem the leaders of this Church above that of another man because thus saith the Lord,

Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think himself above another

Denver Snuffer is fallible man and he is no greater than those who are called to be prophets, seers, and revelators of the LDS Church. God doesn't esteem him above these other men and women. And yet, God DOES choose and send messengers. Those chosen from the foundation of the world. But none of us are denied coming to Him through faith Denver Snuffer isn't a better person, he isn't a better prophet, he isn't greater than or more competent than those who we sustain as leaders of the LDS Church. I'm not saying he is less than either. But, it is folly and sinful to esteem Denver above that of another man. There is no institution on this planet that you can go to that will resolve the issues that you claim to have with the LDS Church. I agree. The solution or truth lies OUTSIDE any institution. Institutions can be infiltrated and corrupted. The great and abominable whore has done this already, as Satan aptly states in the Temple. "And with that enmity..." You are just replacing one arm of flesh with another. God is greater than the Mormon paradigm and greater than the Denver Snuffer paradigm. Agreed. You sound like Denver. We can't put God in a box. He is all in all, working through His agents all through-out the Earth. Christ can be found here and there. I have no prejudice against Denver. I read many of his words and I felt the Holy Ghost. However, the Spirit showed me that beneath all of his words, there is an underlying vanity and elitism. The Spirit distinctly lead me away from Denver because his movement doesn't represent anything greater than what can be found in the LDS Church. There is a great unity that comes from having the pure love of Christ within us. Zion will be composed of people from all walks of life. Zion will be composed of those people who are willing to live in peace with others who are different from them. God is the source of variety and differences as there is beauty in variety and God is manifested in all sorts of ways. In time those who have the Spirit of Christ will come together as they learn to love others, respect others, and desire the best for others, regardless of their differences and their fallen natures.

In any case, I don't condemn Denver Snuffer. I don't believe him being excommunicated, by itself, means that he has no hope for eternal life. I don't pretend to know his standing before God and I have no animosity or ill will towards him or any one of his followers. I believe Denver Snuffer has a purpose and role to play. I truly hope the best for him. I agree with you in that in time all things will be made manifest. I know for certainty, however, through the power of the Holy Ghost, that God does not want me to abandon the LDS Church and that God is still working with this organization of people and that the Church will be redeemed through the power of Christ and that my role and my calling is to stay here and to faithfully execute the tasks given to me by the Spirit.

-Finrock

My response in red text above.

Yes, all the Prophets point to Christ. That is their job. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. A prophet of God does not replace Him. Once we have found Jesus, we listen to Him. Prophet's job is done.

Our faith begins by the testimony of one who has experienced God. A true prophet will continuously work to lead others to Christ and away from himself. The prophet is after all just testifying of what he knows about God and his experiences with how God has saved him. A true prophet knows he is nothing. If we don't have the knowledge a prophet does and we feel the Spirit in their words then we listen to them and begin to experiment upon their testimony. We can continue to temporarily put trust in them and in their counsel if needed but ultimately a true prophet will want you to go to Christ. Once a true prophet sees you are with Christ, his job with you is done. You are with Christ. What better teacher can you have at this point? What more could a prophet give you that the Savior cannot? The prophet's job is done.

As was stated by someone on the forum once that most people need a here and now mortal man to follow and I appreciate that perspective. I would not be where I am at today without the help of some very good priesthood leaders and other people. My bishop for example is a wonderful man who has assisted me greatly in learning about Jesus Christ and with helping to guide me through some difficult times in my life. I have been at a point in my life when I did not have faith in Christ and I did not believe in Him or in His atonement. I was glad to have a person I could go to and speak to because I did not feel that God was available to me. Because I felt I needed a proxy, I had a proxy and this has been what I had needed at that time and it ultimately lead me to where I am today. I would never want to take that away from someone who needs it and who are in that position.

However, eventually, we must have our own experiences with God. There is no doubt in my mind that many of the LDS Leaders today, including many who are currently sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators, are indeed true prophets of Jesus Christ.

But, being a prophet of Jesus Christ does not mean that you are the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or that you have replaced another prophet. You can be a seer, a revelator, or a prophet without being a leader in the Church. You can be a leader in the Church and be sustained as a prophet, seer, and a revelator, yet not be one. Now, if a man has been set apart for this duty, why would I abandon him as opposed to sustaining him, when he stumbles or falls? Wouldn't it be more charitable for me to continue to testify of Christ and to show an outpouring of love to my brother? I seek to have him fulfill his high calling until he gets chosen? Or, should I begin to ridicule, to mock, to tear down, and to take advantage of my brother's weakness and suppose to elevate myself at his expense? I can point out the truth that I know, support it, and sustain it, without bringing down my brother. I can allow my brother, who has been given a stewardship, to fulfill his stewardship. I should not pretend to be able to take over the stewardship of another because they have faltered here or there. I can be a prophet of God, yet not be the President of the Church. In fact, I am a prophet of Jesus Christ, but I have no ambitions, intent, or desires to try to tell the Church leadership how they ought to function and what they ought to do. God's kingdom and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the same. The Church of the First Born encompasses the LDS Church and the LDS Church functions as a means to bring people to the Church of the Firstborn. Yes, we are to howl and to sound the trumpet and to warn our neighbors of what we have seen and of what we know, but that doesn't mean that we separate ourselves and/or try to set ourselves up to be someone to be followed. True prophets will always point others to Christ and away from themselves.

As I've said before, I know that God doesn't esteem one man greater than another and that we are all equal in the eyes of God. I understand that the purpose of ANY prophet is the lead me to Christ. I understand and hope that the prophets recognized by the body of the Church will lead me to Jesus Christ.

But, my religion is not following the prophets. I don't want to follow the Prophet or prophets, per se, I want to follow Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "Come, follow me". I am hoping that the prophets will show me how to get to Jesus Christ. Once I am with Jesus Christ, then I thank the prophets for their help and I start helping others come to Christ too.

I leave the administration of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to the President of the Church, but the Church is really just there to facilitate my worship of Jesus Christ. It is a tool to lead me to Christ and to allow me to become more like Christ by serving and loving others.

However, I do not venerate the apostles. From what I can gather, they wouldn't want me to and in fact they seem to be telling me to stop using them as a crutch and to go to Christ Himself.

The LDS Church is fulfilling its purpose and doing what it is suppose to do. Any organization of a group of people will have mixed in it the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. I don't care where you go, you can't escape it. Denver does it, you do it, I do it, the LDS Church does it, it is every where. Once we have taken the Holy Spirit as our guide and we maintain a remission of our sins by keeping the commandments of God, we can hear the voice of the Spirit and it will often surprise us where we hear it and where we don't. I listen to all men and try to find the voice of the Spirit in their words. If it is there and I hear it, I accept their words. There is not doubt in my mind, because I have experienced it, that God is speaking through many of the LDS leadership today as well as He is speaking through many others who are not leaders or who are not even a part of the LDS Church. Denver is just one voice among many voices. If Denver speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost, he is speaking for God. If Denver doesn't, then he isn't speaking for God. Denver is not a special messenger who was sent to take the reigns from the LDS Church. I won't follow him just as I won't follow any man. I follow Jesus Christ and I have take the Holy Spirit as my guide. The LDS Church is a wonderful organization of people where I can be of aid, helping others to come to Christ. There is much work to be done here and I am happy to serve in the stewardship I have been given and to respect the stewardship that others have been given, doing whatever I can to help bring about Zion. God will redeem Zion.

-Finrock

I believe you're very circumspect in your views. I share the same sentiments for the most part.

You said:

From what I can gather, they wouldn't want me to and in fact they seem to be telling me to stop using them as a crutch and to go to Christ Himself.

I wonder how you excuse all the General Conference talks to trust in the Church and trust in the Brethren. Looks like you're giving them a big pass. Such "all is well in Zion," and "trust us, we can't lead you astray", and "Keep your eye on the prophet", and "stay on Old Ship Zion" admonitions are all too frequent in General Conference.

A spooky comment was made by the next president, Elder Nelson in Oct 2014 when he said this bombshell, which has become a mantra down to the present day:

Our sustaining of prophets is a personal commitment that we will do our utmost to uphold their prophetic priorities. Our sustaining is an oath-like indication that we recognize their calling as a prophet to be legitimate and binding upon us.

Such calculated verbiage by Pres Nelson doesn't resemble anything like your opinion when you said, "they wouldn't want me to and in fact they seem to be telling me to stop using them as a crutch and to go to Christ Himself."

Pres Nelson's comments are, frankly, weird! Unfortunately, "prophetic priorities" is the new buzzword of the GA's who are going out to the stakes to get people to fall in line with the Brethren. We should never be falling "in line" with the Brethren. Any "alignment" (another buzzword they use) should be with Jesus Christ. And yet the top leaders are asking us to have allegiance to THEM, to uphold THEIR priorities. Such duty, they say is like taking an "oath", a very loaded term, esp if you're familiar with how the Nephites and Lamanites viewed the seriousness of "oath taking".

The Brethren are encouraging us to support and sustain them and to align ourselves with THEM. This resembles priestcraft. Elder Nelson's comments have not been rebuked, and in fact the Brethren are running with his choice of buzzwords. Just a few weeks ago a GA was visiting my stake and he frequently used "prophetic priorities" to get the stake leadership and stake members to respect what the Brethren are saying. This is very cult like. Very unfortunate choice of words, I say. And I PREDICT this buzzword and catch phrase of "prophetic priorities" will increase in usage. Puppets will happily play along and use the term. Independent minded members will hopefully be wiser. We should follow Jesus and align ourselves with Christ.

I just found this from 2010: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... tml?pg=all

This relates to the discussion at hand.

Richard Lyman Bushman, noted scholar and author on the Prophet Joseph Smith and emeritus professor of history at Columbia University in New York, delivered the opening presentation on "Joseph Smith and the Routinization of Charisma," which is defined in a theological sense as a divinely directed gift, grace or talent, such as prophecy.

"How can we account for the success of this lay-led church, which seems to run against all expectations?" Bushman asked. He said that it's genius can be largely explained in the fact that the expectation of divine revelation has been built into the very administrative structure and offices of the church, an expectation attributable to the Prophet himself.

I think it's very bad and potentially nefarious for any Church leaders to ask these types of questions:

How can we Church leaders create an institution or an organization which tithe-paying members can look to and trust which meets their wishes and expectations and hopes and dreams that IT delivers revelation from heaven? Or, how can we build into the Church administrative structure and offices of the priesthood the expectation of divine revelation? Or, how can we get the members to think and believe that the men who hold certain offices in the Church (those of prophet, seer, and revelator) are receiving divine revelation in the actual absence of divine revelation?

If Bushman is correct, then the genius of Church leaders is to convince hundreds of thousands of members that divine revelation is occurring (even when it's not!) in the Church. If the Brethren are asking these types of (what I call improper, even scheming) questions, then they will get answers that result in over-the-top comments like Elder Nelson's cult-look-alike quote above.

[Finrock]

Thanks for the response. See, I respect and appreciate the role of those who are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators within the Church. I have a testimony, by the power of the Holy Ghost that many of them are true prophets of God, that they have the spirit of Prophecy, which is a testimony of Jesus through the power of the Holy Ghost. The scripture says in Rev 19:10: "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." I think a "testimony of Jesus" refers to something more than a spiritual feeling. These servants in Rev 19 knew Jesus, they saw Him, thus they had a "testimony" of Him. They heard His sure word of prophecy.I don't know by the power of the Holy Ghost that all of them are. I can conceive of some within the body of the leadership of this Church, including those who are called as Apostles, to be actively against Zion or to be living in a state of apostasy. (That's very interesting. That means you reject WW's added excerpts to OD1 in 1981 as an apostate precept.) However, it is not my place to judge them or to condemn them. In fact, I place myself in danger of being damned for doing so. I would agree with you IF they were true servants chosen and sent by the Father, you would be damned for condemning them. But if you "follow" their counsel when they are blind, then you damn yourself. Also, it I believe it IS our place and duty to judge / discern if they are sheep or wolves, wheat or tares. We must condemn error. It's not our place to judge their eternal judgement, but we must judge their acts and teachings in the here and now. Thus I have entered the list of their acts of apostasy to at least publish upon the housetops the facts. Let each man or woman decide for themselves.



I sustain those who are in leadership positions because I love them. I want them to succeed. Me too! I know they are men, mortal, just like I. I have lived in a state of apostasy and I have been idolatrous, yet, God did not abandon me. In fact, He loved me, blessed me, and continued to uphold me even though I was His enemy. These men, even though they make mistakes, they are my brothers and I desire nothing but the best for them. Me too. I don't want to be a stumbling block or a hinderance to them. Me either. I pray for them and ask that God keeps them in His way, just as I would want others to pray for me and to have God keep me in His way. Me too! That these men are fallible and that they have made mistakes and that the members of the Church are in large degree idolatrous and are not fulfilling the greater law, or living the Order of Enoch, or the United Order, does not mean that we need another, fallible man, to come take the reigns and set things straight. However, Joseph taught this: "It is in the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood." It also doesn't mean that God has abandoned His Church completely or that He has cast the Church off and that it no longer fulfills its role of bringing souls to Christ. Unfortunately we have many scriptures that indicate this is what has happened. I've quoted them in many places above. The Nephites and Jaredites are two examples illustrating what happened when the people abandoned Christ. The Spirit will not always strive with man.
When that day comes, destruction knocks at the door.

You see, I don't esteem the leaders of this Church above that of another man because thus saith the Lord,



Denver Snuffer is fallible man and he is no greater than those who are called to be prophets, seers, and revelators of the LDS Church. God doesn't esteem him above these other men and women. And yet, God DOES choose and send messengers. Those chosen from the foundation of the world. But none of us are denied coming to Him through faith Denver Snuffer isn't a better person, he isn't a better prophet, he isn't greater than or more competent than those who we sustain as leaders of the LDS Church. I'm not saying he is less than either. But, it is folly and sinful to esteem Denver above that of another man. There is no institution on this planet that you can go to that will resolve the issues that you claim to have with the LDS Church. I agree. The solution or truth lies OUTSIDE any institution. Institutions can be infiltrated and corrupted. The great and abominable whore has done this already, as Satan aptly states in the Temple. "And with that enmity..." You are just replacing one arm of flesh with another. God is greater than the Mormon paradigm and greater than the Denver Snuffer paradigm. Agreed. You sound like Denver. We can't put God in a box. He is all in all, working through His agents all through-out the Earth. Christ can be found here and there. I have no prejudice against Denver. I read many of his words and I felt the Holy Ghost. However, the Spirit showed me that beneath all of his words, there is an underlying vanity and elitism. The Spirit distinctly lead me away from Denver because his movement doesn't represent anything greater than what can be found in the LDS Church. There is a great unity that comes from having the pure love of Christ within us. Zion will be composed of people from all walks of life. Zion will be composed of those people who are willing to live in peace with others who are different from them. God is the source of variety and differences as there is beauty in variety and God is manifested in all sorts of ways. In time those who have the Spirit of Christ will come together as they learn to love others, respect others, and desire the best for others, regardless of their differences and their fallen natures.

In any case, I don't condemn Denver Snuffer. I don't believe him being excommunicated, by itself, means that he has no hope for eternal life. I don't pretend to know his standing before God and I have no animosity or ill will towards him or any one of his followers. I believe Denver Snuffer has a purpose and role to play. I truly hope the best for him. I agree with you in that in time all things will be made manifest. I know for certainty, however, through the power of the Holy Ghost, that God does not want me to abandon the LDS Church and that God is still working with this organization of people and that the Church will be redeemed through the power of Christ and that my role and my calling is to stay here and to faithfully execute the tasks given to me by the Spirit.

-Finrock

My response in red text above.

Yes, all the Prophets point to Christ. That is their job. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. A prophet of God does not replace Him. Once we have found Jesus, we listen to Him. Prophet's job is done.

Our faith begins by the testimony of one who has experienced God. A true prophet will continuously work to lead others to Christ and away from himself. The prophet is after all just testifying of what he knows about God and his experiences with how God has saved him. A true prophet knows he is nothing. If we don't have the knowledge a prophet does and we feel the Spirit in their words then we listen to them and begin to experiment upon their testimony. We can continue to temporarily put trust in them and in their counsel if needed but ultimately a true prophet will want you to go to Christ. Once a true prophet sees you are with Christ, his job with you is done. You are with Christ. What better teacher can you have at this point? What more could a prophet give you that the Savior cannot? The prophet's job is done.

As was stated by someone on the forum once that most people need a here and now mortal man to follow and I appreciate that perspective. I would not be where I am at today without the help of some very good priesthood leaders and other people. My bishop for example is a wonderful man who has assisted me greatly in learning about Jesus Christ and with helping to guide me through some difficult times in my life. I have been at a point in my life when I did not have faith in Christ and I did not believe in Him or in His atonement. I was glad to have a person I could go to and speak to because I did not feel that God was available to me. Because I felt I needed a proxy, I had a proxy and this has been what I had needed at that time and it ultimately lead me to where I am today. I would never want to take that away from someone who needs it and who are in that position.

However, eventually, we must have our own experiences with God. There is no doubt in my mind that many of the LDS Leaders today, including many who are currently sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators, are indeed true prophets of Jesus Christ.

But, being a prophet of Jesus Christ does not mean that you are the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or that you have replaced another prophet. You can be a seer, a revelator, or a prophet without being a leader in the Church. You can be a leader in the Church and be sustained as a prophet, seer, and a revelator, yet not be one. Now, if a man has been set apart for this duty, why would I abandon him as opposed to sustaining him, when he stumbles or falls? Wouldn't it be more charitable for me to continue to testify of Christ and to show an outpouring of love to my brother? I seek to have him fulfill his high calling until he gets chosen? Or, should I begin to ridicule, to mock, to tear down, and to take advantage of my brother's weakness and suppose to elevate myself at his expense? I can point out the truth that I know, support it, and sustain it, without bringing down my brother. I can allow my brother, who has been given a stewardship, to fulfill his stewardship. I should not pretend to be able to take over the stewardship of another because they have faltered here or there. I can be a prophet of God, yet not be the President of the Church. In fact, I am a prophet of Jesus Christ, but I have no ambitions, intent, or desires to try to tell the Church leadership how they ought to function and what they ought to do. God's kingdom and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the same. The Church of the First Born encompasses the LDS Church and the LDS Church functions as a means to bring people to the Church of the Firstborn. Yes, we are to howl and to sound the trumpet and to warn our neighbors of what we have seen and of what we know, but that doesn't mean that we separate ourselves and/or try to set ourselves up to be someone to be followed. True prophets will always point others to Christ and away from themselves.

As I've said before, I know that God doesn't esteem one man greater than another and that we are all equal in the eyes of God. I understand that the purpose of ANY prophet is the lead me to Christ. I understand and hope that the prophets recognized by the body of the Church will lead me to Jesus Christ.

But, my religion is not following the prophets. I don't want to follow the Prophet or prophets, per se, I want to follow Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "Come, follow me". I am hoping that the prophets will show me how to get to Jesus Christ. Once I am with Jesus Christ, then I thank the prophets for their help and I start helping others come to Christ too.

I leave the administration of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to the President of the Church, but the Church is really just there to facilitate my worship of Jesus Christ. It is a tool to lead me to Christ and to allow me to become more like Christ by serving and loving others.

However, I do not venerate the apostles. From what I can gather, they wouldn't want me to and in fact they seem to be telling me to stop using them as a crutch and to go to Christ Himself.

The LDS Church is fulfilling its purpose and doing what it is suppose to do. Any organization of a group of people will have mixed in it the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. I don't care where you go, you can't escape it. Denver does it, you do it, I do it, the LDS Church does it, it is every where. Once we have taken the Holy Spirit as our guide and we maintain a remission of our sins by keeping the commandments of God, we can hear the voice of the Spirit and it will often surprise us where we hear it and where we don't. I listen to all men and try to find the voice of the Spirit in their words. If it is there and I hear it, I accept their words. There is not doubt in my mind, because I have experienced it, that God is speaking through many of the LDS leadership today as well as He is speaking through many others who are not leaders or who are not even a part of the LDS Church. Denver is just one voice among many voices. If Denver speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost, he is speaking for God. If Denver doesn't, then he isn't speaking for God. Denver is not a special messenger who was sent to take the reigns from the LDS Church. I won't follow him just as I won't follow any man. I follow Jesus Christ and I have take the Holy Spirit as my guide. The LDS Church is a wonderful organization of people where I can be of aid, helping others to come to Christ. There is much work to be done here and I am happy to serve in the stewardship I have been given and to respect the stewardship that others have been given, doing whatever I can to help bring about Zion. God will redeem Zion.

-Finrock

I believe you're very circumspect in your views. I share the same sentiments for the most part.

You said:

From what I can gather, they wouldn't want me to and in fact they seem to be telling me to stop using them as a crutch and to go to Christ Himself.

I wonder how you excuse all the General Conference talks to trust in the Church and trust in the Brethren. Looks like you're giving them a big pass. Such "all is well in Zion," and "trust us, we can't lead you astray", and "Keep your eye on the prophet", and "stay on Old Ship Zion" admonitions are all too frequent in General Conference.

A spooky comment was made by the next president, Elder Nelson in Oct 2014 when he said this bombshell, which has become a mantra down to the present day:

Our sustaining of prophets is a personal commitment that we will do our utmost to uphold their prophetic priorities. Our sustaining is an oath-like indication that we recognize their calling as a prophet to be legitimate and binding upon us.

Such calculated verbiage by Pres Nelson doesn't resemble anything like your opinion when you said, "they wouldn't want me to and in fact they seem to be telling me to stop using them as a crutch and to go to Christ Himself."

Pres Nelson's comments are, frankly, weird! Unfortunately, "prophetic priorities" is the new buzzword of the GA's who are going out to the stakes to get people to fall in line with the Brethren. We should never be falling "in line" with the Brethren. Any "alignment" (another buzzword they use) should be with Jesus Christ. And yet the top leaders are asking us to have allegiance to THEM, to uphold THEIR priorities. Such duty, they say is like taking an "oath", a very loaded term, esp if you're familiar with how the Nephites and Lamanites viewed the seriousness of "oath taking".

The Brethren are encouraging us to support and sustain them and to align ourselves with THEM. This resembles priestcraft. Elder Nelson's comments have not been rebuked, and in fact the Brethren are running with his choice of buzzwords. Just a few weeks ago a GA was visiting my stake and he frequently used "prophetic priorities" to get the stake leadership and stake members to respect what the Brethren are saying. This is very cult like. Very unfortunate choice of words, I say. And I PREDICT this buzzword and catch phrase of "prophetic priorities" will increase in usage. Puppets will happily play along and use the term. Independent minded members will hopefully be wiser. We should follow Jesus and align ourselves with Christ.

I just found this from 2010: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... tml?pg=all

This relates to the discussion at hand.

Richard Lyman Bushman, noted scholar and author on the Prophet Joseph Smith and emeritus professor of history at Columbia University in New York, delivered the opening presentation on "Joseph Smith and the Routinization of Charisma," which is defined in a theological sense as a divinely directed gift, grace or talent, such as prophecy.

"How can we account for the success of this lay-led church, which seems to run against all expectations?" Bushman asked. He said that it's genius can be largely explained in the fact that the expectation of divine revelation has been built into the very administrative structure and offices of the church, an expectation attributable to the Prophet himself.

I think it's very bad and potentially nefarious for any Church leaders to ask these types of questions:

How can we Church leaders create an institution or an organization which tithe-paying members can look to and trust which meets their wishes and expectations and hopes and dreams that IT delivers revelation from heaven? Or, how can we build into the Church administrative structure and offices of the priesthood the expectation of divine revelation? Or, how can we get the members to think and believe that the men who hold certain offices in the Church (those of prophet, seer, and revelator) are receiving divine revelation in the actual absence of divine revelation?

If Bushman is correct, then the genius of Church leaders is to convince hundreds of thousands of members that divine revelation is occurring (even when it's not!) in the Church. If the Brethren are asking these types of (what I call improper, even scheming) questions, then they will get answers that result in over-the-top comments like Elder Nelson's cult-look-alike quote above.

I don't excuse anything that is error or untrue. Denver Snuffer and his movement is not exempt from error and untruth. To the degree that I discern error and untruth, I reject it. I expect men and women to make errors. I expect folly. I expect untruth. They are just men after all, just like I am. I teach what I know to be true to those who will listen or to those who hear. I try to stay humble, teachable, meek, and contrite. My faith is not in the men, in the institution, but my faith is in Christ.

You are taking scripture and then you are making generalizations about those scriptures. You are looking for faults in the leaders and if you seek, you will find them, because they exist. The same can be said and done of you and of Denver. Trust me, faults can be found and if we focus on those faults, anyone can be made to come out as a fallen man or woman. It is true that all is not well is Zion. We are to weep, and to howl, and to sound the trumpet, that all is not well. It is true that the LDS leaders can lead you astray. But, so can Denver Snuffer or any man for that matter. Going to him and looking to him as if he will produce different results is foolish. Or thinking that Denver Snuffer and his particular philosophy can't lead you astray, is foolish. We are to look to Christ and to take the Holy Spirit as our guide and follow the dictates of the Holy Ghost. Yes, it is important to teach people to have a broken heart and a contrite spirit so as to be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Yes, it is important to have people to stop treating leaders as celebrities or to put their trust in the arm of flesh. Yes, if something is true we should speak about it openly, honestly, but with charity. If we follow the dictates of the Holy Ghost and if we are cast aside, ridiculed, mocked, or judged unrighteously, then so be it.

Joseph Smith taught error. There is no mortal on this planet who has not taught error. Brigham Young taught error. We can go down the list of Church leaders and true prophets and show where they taught error. It didn't stop them from being a true prophet. I am a prophet of Jesus Christ, yet, I am at times in error. But, because my intent is pure and my desires are good, God does not cast me off. Perhaps there are some in the leadership who are completely corrupt. But, unless the Holy Ghost has made this manifest to me or there is some other evidence outside of general warnings and general prophetic words which can apply to any man or to a group of men, then for me to start saying this man is apostate, this man is fallen, this man is reprobate, he has been rejected of God, he is a man of evil and of the devil, then I stand in danger of being cast down to hell. Error can exist without it meaning that one has completely lost their way or that God has left them to the buffetings of the Satan.

Don't show me generalizations or your interpretations of sin. Do you have a charge against one of the apostles that is worthy of excommunication? Could you defend that charge in an impartial court of the Church? Do you have evidence to back up that charge, or is it enough that Denver Snuffer believes x, y, or z and that is sufficient to cast judgment and a man is now in apostasy? There have been fallen apostles before. They committed adultery and they were excommunicated after unequivocal evidence and their own admittance of error. If Denver was treated unfairly by the Church, it doesn't give him an excuse to cast judgment without just cause or without specific evidence and specific circumstances to justify his claims of apostasy.

Its one thing to say that error, and in general, apostasy exist. Its another thing to say this specific man is fallen and is of the devil, he should be rejected, abandoned, left to the buffetings of Satan, and therefore we should not associate with him any more until he repents. Elder Nelson may very well teach error. He wouldn't be the first one. But, I don't know the condition of his heart. I don't know that his heart is corrupt. I have nothing, other than the opinions of other men, to show me that Elder Nelson is not speaking with sincerity and pure intent. In the end, it is up to each man to obtain and to maintain the Holy Spirit so that they will know when truth is spoken and when it is not. The solution is not Denver Snuffer and acting like he has been set to preserve the restoration and we can rely on him to always teach the truth and that we can rely on his particular philosophies, teachings, and ideas to always be representative of God's pure word and His pure voice.

The Church will go through its ups and downs. We see that pattern in the Book of Mormon. It doesn't become an illegitimate organization worthy to be cast away because there are seasons of error. I see no need to jump off the old ship Zion because this ship just functions as a means for me to help bring others to Christ. I could jump on some other ship, but what would that accomplish. Nothing would be resolved. The same issues would exist. Same mortal men doing, presumably, the best they can with the light that they have. The Old Ship Zion can crash and burn yet my salvation is secure because my foundation is build on Christ, not on a Church, not on prophets, apostles, or other fallen and mortal men or women. I don't "need" Denver Snuffer any more than I "need" Elder Nelson.

-Finrock

[underdog]

Its one thing to say that error, and in general, apostasy exist. Its another thing to say this specific man is fallen and is of the devil, he should be rejected, abandoned, left to the buffetings of Satan, and therefore we should not associate with him any more until he repents. Elder Nelson may very well teach error. He wouldn't be the first one. But, I don't know the condition of his heart. I don't know that his heart is corrupt. I have nothing, other than the opinions of other men, to show me that Elder Nelson is not speaking with sincerity and pure intent. In the end, it is up to each man to obtain and to maintain the Holy Spirit so that they will know when truth is spoken and when it is not. The solution is not Denver Snuffer and acting like he has been set to preserve the restoration and we can rely on him to always teach the truth and that we can rely on his particular philosophies, teachings, and ideas to always be representative of God's pure word and His pure voice.

The Church will go through its ups and downs. We see that pattern in the Book of Mormon. It doesn't become an illegitimate organization worthy to be cast away because there are seasons of error. I see no need to jump off the old ship Zion because this ship just functions as a means for me to help bring others to Christ. I could jump on some other ship, but what would that accomplish. Nothing would be resolved. The same issues would exist. Same mortal men doing, presumably, the best they can with the light that they have. The Old Ship Zion can crash and burn yet my salvation is secure because my foundation is build on Christ, not on a Church, not on prophets, apostles, or other fallen and mortal men or women. I don't "need" Denver Snuffer any more than I "need" Elder Nelson.

Thank you for your clarifications and admonition to follow Christ and trust no man. I agree. I agree men are fallible and that they do teach error and can therefore lead us astray. I agree that we shouldn't trade one organization (the LDS Church) for another.

I'm gonna hold your feet to the fire though. I expect you'd do the same out of service to me.

You said, "It's one thing to say that error, and in general, apostasy exist. Its another thing to say this specific man is fallen and is of the devil, he should be rejected, abandoned, left to the buffetings of Satan, and therefore we should not associate with him any more until he repents. Elder Nelson may very well teach error. He wouldn't be the first one. But, I don't know the condition of his heart. I don't know that his heart is corrupt. I have nothing, other than the opinions of other men, to show me that Elder Nelson is not speaking with sincerity and pure intent."

It appears you are doing everything within your power to shirk responsibility for judging whether somebody is a true prophet or not, but at the end you actually DO make a judgment in his defense by saying you believe Elder Nelson is speaking with sincerity and with a pure heart. I'll call BS on that, and say give me a break. Honestly, you've got to be kidding. Out of one side of your mouth you say we shouldn't judge such a man, and then you go on record, out of the other side of your mouth, and say Elder Nelson is pure and sincere. Or have I misunderstood what you're saying? Please correct me if so.

Let me ask this of you: Wouldn't it be wise to trade a false prophet (wolf in sheep's clothing) for a true prophet?

Keep in mind, that Denver doesn't represent an institution, not does he advocate CREATING or HAVING or JOINING one. He preaches like you preach, that people have individual responsibilities to discern.

Denver taught 7 years ago the following:

There is absolutely no historical precedent we can point to which confirms that charisma can be safely institutionalized. There are an abundance of examples, however, of men abusing religion to gain control over others to satisfy their pride, to exercise control and dominion over others, and to gratify their vain ambition. The only check against this are the individual testimonies of the few, humble followers of Christ. Nevertheless, we are told that in our day even they are going to be led into error oftentimes by those who teach them the precepts of men. (2 Ne. 28: 14.)

This is what you are teaching and I believe it is true. So we can leave aside the question of institution -- it's irrelevant -- in my view. And in your eyes too, as you say it could crash and burn and wouldn't impact your salvation at all. Agreed. But we can and should examine the question of a specific sheep or wolf. That is our duty, indeed that is the very purpose of our lives. We are sent to be proved if we will do all THE LORD commands (Abr 3:25). If we reject a true prophet, we reject Christ, and that DOES impact our salvation.

So, the unavoidable question is, who is legit?

1) DENVER: In your view, what teaching of Denver's is in error? Does that make him a wolf (since we agree all men are fallible)? Was that teaching taught when he said it came from the Lord? In other words, I would suggest you take a teaching that came from the 10 talks (Denver's fruit). He says those are "thus the saith the Lord" material. To be honest, I'd be open to and listen even if you took a teaching or anything he did previous or since the 10 talks too.

2) ELDER NELSON (and generally, the Brethren): You said, "I have nothing, other than the opinions of other men, to show me that Elder Nelson is not speaking with sincerity and pure intent".

The following facts utterly destroy the notion you state that Elder Nelson is speaking with "sincerity and pure intent." If I said what you said, knowing the following facts, I would have to acknowledge I was guilty of gross wickedness and trying to cover for abominable sins. I'd be an aider and abetter to "spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph 6:12). Do you really want to go on record before God as participating in an in-your-face, Satan-led charade? Do you want to amend your statement that he's sincere and of pure intent?

Questions (which I know will go unanswered because they have so far) for Elder Nelson would be:

1) How do you respond to the list of the acts of apostasy of the Brethren that I have listed above? As the president of the Q of the 12, you can't be a silent fence sitter.
2) For Elder Nelson specifically, based on my understanding of what happened in Denver's excommunication, Elder Nelson has been named by a man of God (Denver) who says he was clearly involved in Denver's excommuniciation and by all appearances, ordered Denver's last stake president to excommunicate Denver. Why was Elder Nelson involved WHEN HE HAS NO AUTHORITY in local matters? On what basis did he feel Denver was worthy to be excommunicated?
3) The Church (the Brethren hiding in anonymity -- their favorite pastime) released a press release in which they told a lie meant to deceive members. Elder Nelson is caught here red handed. He needs to answer the charges because when you undertake to cover your sins you lose your priesthood.

Elder Nelson morally should take the stand and address these questions. Wouldn't silence mean he's guilty and is not worthy to be in his office? Confession and repentance is the only path for him.

Of course, we know his response because he's already made his choices. He chooses to censor and excommunicate his opposition (overt evidence of UD), even the weak and meek people of the earth that merely ask the questions. If there was a 'trial' held, wouldn't the above evidence be more than enough evidence to convict him?

Wouldn't it be nice if such a trial could be held? But would the Brethren ever allow such a trial?

But the trial has happened already - in the excommunication of Denver Snuffer (who represents all members of the Church). In Denver's trial, YOU and ME as the jurors, must decide through our own powers of discernment who acted righteously and who acted wickedly. There ARE two sides. Which would Christ delight in? Which would Satan delight in? You decide!

[Finrock]

Its one thing to say that error, and in general, apostasy exist. Its another thing to say this specific man is fallen and is of the devil, he should be rejected, abandoned, left to the buffetings of Satan, and therefore we should not associate with him any more until he repents. Elder Nelson may very well teach error. He wouldn't be the first one. But, I don't know the condition of his heart. I don't know that his heart is corrupt. I have nothing, other than the opinions of other men, to show me that Elder Nelson is not speaking with sincerity and pure intent. In the end, it is up to each man to obtain and to maintain the Holy Spirit so that they will know when truth is spoken and when it is not. The solution is not Denver Snuffer and acting like he has been set to preserve the restoration and we can rely on him to always teach the truth and that we can rely on his particular philosophies, teachings, and ideas to always be representative of God's pure word and His pure voice.

The Church will go through its ups and downs. We see that pattern in the Book of Mormon. It doesn't become an illegitimate organization worthy to be cast away because there are seasons of error. I see no need to jump off the old ship Zion because this ship just functions as a means for me to help bring others to Christ. I could jump on some other ship, but what would that accomplish. Nothing would be resolved. The same issues would exist. Same mortal men doing, presumably, the best they can with the light that they have. The Old Ship Zion can crash and burn yet my salvation is secure because my foundation is build on Christ, not on a Church, not on prophets, apostles, or other fallen and mortal men or women. I don't "need" Denver Snuffer any more than I "need" Elder Nelson.

Thank you for your clarifications and admonition to follow Christ and trust no man. I agree. I agree men are fallible and that they do teach error and can therefore lead us astray. I agree that we shouldn't trade one organization (the LDS Church) for another.

I'm gonna hold your feet to the fire though. I expect you'd do the same out of service to me.

You said, "It's one thing to say that error, and in general, apostasy exist. Its another thing to say this specific man is fallen and is of the devil, he should be rejected, abandoned, left to the buffetings of Satan, and therefore we should not associate with him any more until he repents. Elder Nelson may very well teach error. He wouldn't be the first one. But, I don't know the condition of his heart. I don't know that his heart is corrupt. I have nothing, other than the opinions of other men, to show me that Elder Nelson is not speaking with sincerity and pure intent."

It appears you are doing everything within your power to shirk responsibility for judging whether somebody is a true prophet or not, but at the end you actually DO make a judgment in his defense by saying you believe Elder Nelson is speaking with sincerity and with a pure heart. I'll call BS on that, and say give me a break. Honestly, you've got to be kidding. Out of one side of your mouth you say we shouldn't judge such a man, and then you go on record, out of the other side of your mouth, and say Elder Nelson is pure and sincere. Or have I misunderstood what you're saying? Please correct me if so.

Let me ask this of you: Wouldn't it be wise to trade a false prophet (wolf in sheep's clothing) for a true prophet?

Keep in mind, that Denver doesn't represent an institution, not does he advocate CREATING or HAVING or JOINING one. He preaches like you preach, that people have individual responsibilities to discern.

Denver taught 7 years ago the following:

There is absolutely no historical precedent we can point to which confirms that charisma can be safely institutionalized. There are an abundance of examples, however, of men abusing religion to gain control over others to satisfy their pride, to exercise control and dominion over others, and to gratify their vain ambition. The only check against this are the individual testimonies of the few, humble followers of Christ. Nevertheless, we are told that in our day even they are going to be led into error oftentimes by those who teach them the precepts of men. (2 Ne. 28: 14.)

This is what you are teaching and I believe it is true. So we can leave aside the question of institution -- it's irrelevant -- in my view. And in your eyes too, as you say it could crash and burn and wouldn't impact your salvation at all. Agreed. But we can and should examine the question of a specific sheep or wolf. That is our duty, indeed that is the very purpose of our lives. We are sent to be proved if we will do all THE LORD commands (Abr 3:25). If we reject a true prophet, we reject Christ, and that DOES impact our salvation.

So, the unavoidable question is, who is legit?

1) DENVER: In your view, what teaching of Denver's is in error? Does that make him a wolf (since we agree all men are fallible)? Was that teaching taught when he said it came from the Lord? In other words, I would suggest you take a teaching that came from the 10 talks (Denver's fruit). He says those are "thus the saith the Lord" material. To be honest, I'd be open to and listen even if you took a teaching or anything he did previous or since the 10 talks too.

2) ELDER NELSON (and generally, the Brethren): You said, "I have nothing, other than the opinions of other men, to show me that Elder Nelson is not speaking with sincerity and pure intent".

The following facts utterly destroy the notion you state that Elder Nelson is speaking with "sincerity and pure intent." If I said what you said, knowing the following facts, I would have to acknowledge I was guilty of gross wickedness and trying to cover for abominable sins. I'd be an aider and abetter to "spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph 6:12). Do you really want to go on record before God as participating in an in-your-face, Satan-led charade? Do you want to amend your statement that he's sincere and of pure intent?

Questions (which I know will go unanswered because they have so far) for Elder Nelson would be:

1) How do you respond to the list of the acts of apostasy of the Brethren that I have listed above? As the president of the Q of the 12, you can't be a silent fence sitter.
2) For Elder Nelson specifically, based on my understanding of what happened in Denver's excommunication, Elder Nelson has been named by a man of God (Denver) who says he was clearly involved in Denver's excommuniciation and by all appearances, ordered Denver's last stake president to excommunicate Denver. Why was Elder Nelson involved WHEN HE HAS NO AUTHORITY in local matters? On what basis did he feel Denver was worthy to be excommunicated?
3) The Church (the Brethren hiding in anonymity -- their favorite pastime) released a press release in which they told a lie meant to deceive members. Elder Nelson is caught here red handed. He needs to answer the charges because when you undertake to cover your sins you lose your priesthood.

Elder Nelson morally should take the stand and address these questions. Wouldn't silence mean he's guilty and is not worthy to be in his office? Confession and repentance is the only path for him.

Of course, we know his response because he's already made his choices. He chooses to censor and excommunicate his opposition (overt evidence of UD), even the weak and meek people of the earth that merely ask the questions. If there was a 'trial' held, wouldn't the above evidence be more than enough evidence to convict him?

Wouldn't it be nice if such a trial could be held? But would the Brethren ever allow such a trial?

But the trial has happened already - in the excommunication of Denver Snuffer (who represents all members of the Church). In Denver's trial, YOU and ME as the jurors, must decide through our own powers of discernment who acted righteously and who acted wickedly. There ARE two sides. Which would Christ delight in? Which would Satan delight in? You decide!

Your questions are mostly already addressed in my posts. I'll offer another clarification because my posts might be helpful to others.

Let's be clear that you are taking me to task, so to speak, because rather than believe that Elder Nelson is an evil, condemned man, who is living in gross sin and apostasy and is actively rebelling against God, being a servant of the devil, I choose to assume that Elder Nelson is a good man, a normal man, who is subject to all the weaknesses and frailties of the flesh, who can teach falsehoods, can be in error, and still be acting out of the sincerity of his heart and with pure intent.

All men, no matter who they are, deserve to be treated fairly and with the presumption of innocents, unless it can be shown with evidences and proofs that one is guilty. The principles of Goodness dictate this. It doesn't matter if this is written in law or not. The truth is that all men, as co-sovereigns, and as co-equals, must be treated justly, fairly, and a presumption of innocents. Further, it is uncharitable to hold another person in contempt and to assume that their errors are malicious or done with ill-intent. Being that I myself am fallible and prone to error and sin, I should forgo judgment until sufficient proof and evidence has been acquired to determine guilt. As a follower of Jesus Christ I feel love towards even those who have done me great harm or who would do me great harm. I try with my might to believe and think the best of them until either I have proof and evidence, or because the Holy Spirit reveals something to me to think otherwise. But, even in cases where it is known that one is acting from ill-intent, I still have an obligation to pray for my "enemy" to to do good to my enemy while reserving the right to protect myself against spiritual or physical harm.

Although I don't believe Denver Snuffer in all of his claims and assertions, I don't perceive him as an enemy. I try to assume the best about him. In particular I know the Spirit has directed me to reject Denver Snuffers ultimate claims, but I still don't presume to judge him as an evil or wicked man. I don't presume to know his standing before God. I don't condemn him and I don't desire to besmirch him. As I've stated before I believe he has taught many things which are true and there have been times when the Spirit said to me, yes, what Denver is teaching right now is true and good and I ought to accept it because its true and not because of who has spoken it or not spoken it. In Denver's case there is a difference and that is that the Church has convened a court against him. Now, I'm not going to go in to the details, etc. I acknowledge that it is possible that the Church acts in error, either in this specific case, or generally speaking. It is completely possible that the Church has excommunicated a person without just cause. As far as I'm concerned, that isn't the criteria by which I judge a person's words. If the Spirit would have directed me otherwise, I would have accepted Denver Snuffer's words even though Denver Snuffer has been excommunicated. I try to judge Denver's words based on the merits of his words alone and not based on any other criteria. In the end, however, a court of the Church made a decision and they are within their rights to do exactly as they did. Denver can rest assured that him being excommunicated doesn't necessarily mean his is guilty or that he standing before God has been affected. But, it does mean that the LDS organization has decided that Denver is living in apostasy based on, if nothing else, the temporal values of the current organization. Right now there is no unbiased or impartial way for me to obtain data in regards to what occurred with Denver's excommunication. All I have is Denver's account and the opinions of others. The Church doesn't offer its side of the events as a matter of policy and these things are kept confidential. As far as I know this policy is true for all excommunications and not just Denver's. Without any other source of information, as a fair minded individual, it would be unreasonable and unfair for me to jump to the conclusion that the Church acted out of malicious and evil spite in order to excommunicate Denver Snuffer.

I have no good reason to agree that Elder Nelson is a wicked man, who has apostatized, and is living in open rebellion against God, being an advocate of the Devil. I'm not going to believe the worst about Elder Nelson because Denver Snuffer asserts it to be otherwise. I believe Elder Nelson can be fallen. I don't put it past any mortal man. However, there is nothing available that would indicate that he has acted out of malicious and evil intent or acted in open rebellion to God or to the Church. So, at the moment, I believe and/or assume the best given the information that I do have and know. Nothing that has been brought up about Elder Nelson unequivocally or without any reasonable doubt proves or demonstrates that Elder Nelson acted out of evil, wicked intent and desires. In all the things that are being ascribed to Elder Nelson, it is possible for him to have done all these things while acting out of sincerity and with good intent, based on the light that he has.

-Finrock

[Mark]

My oh my, dissidents and non-denominationals.

It reminds me of some episodes of Monte Pythons flying circus. For some reason this old sketch comes to mind. I like the first race for people with no sense of direction. Combine that with the final parathon for incontinence and I think the comparisons here are stunning! :ymdevil:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UI8CWptOEm8

[Arenera]

My oh my, dissidents and non-denominationals.

It reminds me of some episodes of Monte Pythons flying circus. For some reason this old sketch comes to mind. I like the first race for people with no sense of direction. Combine that with the final parathon for incontinence and I think the comparisons here are stunning! :ymdevil:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UI8CWptOEm8

The race with no sense of direction, nice.

Joseph Smith new about dissidents in his day. For those who think they can take his restoration, he said this:

The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense than to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it? The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began.

I testify again, as the Lord lives, God never will acknowledge any traitors or apostates. Any man who will betray the Catholics will betray you; and if he will betray me, he will betray you. All men are liars who say they are of the true Church without the revelations of Jesus Christ and the Priesthood of Melchisedek, which is after the order of the Son of God.

It is the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood; but when men come out and build upon other men's foundations, they do it on their own responsibility, without authority from God; and when the floods come and the winds blow, their foundations will be found to be sand, and their whole fabric will crumble to dust.

Did I build on any other man's foundation?"

They have no power, just a crumbling sandy foundation.

[Jonesy]

My oh my, dissidents and non-denominationals.

It reminds me of some episodes of Monte Pythons flying circus. For some reason this old sketch comes to mind. I like the first race for people with no sense of direction. Combine that with the final parathon for incontinence and I think the comparisons here are stunning! :ymdevil:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UI8CWptOEm8

The race with no sense of direction, nice.

Joseph Smith new about dissidents in his day. For those who think they can take his restoration, he said this:

The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense than to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it? The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began.

I testify again, as the Lord lives, God never will acknowledge any traitors or apostates. Any man who will betray the Catholics will betray you; and if he will betray me, he will betray you. All men are liars who say they are of the true Church without the revelations of Jesus Christ and the Priesthood of Melchisedek, which is after the order of the Son of God.

It is the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood; but when men come out and build upon other men's foundations, they do it on their own responsibility, without authority from God; and when the floods come and the winds blow, their foundations will be found to be sand, and their whole fabric will crumble to dust.

Did I build on any other man's foundation?"

They have no power, just a crumbling sandy foundation.

Not only that, but also:

30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times,(D&C 112)

So, if the last dispensation has already been committed, how can another dispensation come along through another? Doesn't make sense. The kingdom will move forward:

2 The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.

If there will be a mighty one, it will continue to roll through the keys. And those are with the Fifteen and the Church.