I continue to read and re-read 3 Nephi 1-11 over and over again. There is a lot of good stuff in there.LoveChrist wrote:In my letter from President Hinckley, he quoted what he has previously stated, "In this darkest of hours"
I don't know about you, but I thought of the destruction among the Americas prior to 3 NE. (the thick darkness)
I respectfully disagree. Recall that Reagan campaigned against the CFR and Trilaterals. He was the ideological successor to Barry Goldwater, and predecessor to Ron Paul (at least as far as presidential campaign rhetoric - his California governor record is more mixed -- kind of like Romney's).but I do not support the idea that Reagan threw the bums out. He was an actor hence politician. Reagan did recall the Iran Contra affair or he was deliberately drugged to forget it. He was complicit in corruption.
I'm sorry, but doesn't that make him complicit? You admit that he went along with them in choosing Bush and was at the least manipulated in other areas. Now maybe he had a conscience about some of it, maybe he was drugged, I do not know, but he most certainly did not throw the bums out (Bush was never tossed. Was George Schultz or Jim Baker who you singled out?). I am not more inclined to believe that version of the story than another. Reagan's administration was responsible for a lot of bad.IMHO, Reagan was manipulated.
We need to make sure we aren't lolling around like Lot in the midst of the 'iniquity of thy sister Sodom' lest the Lord take us away as he sees good.Ezekiel 16:
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
(Did we know that? We thought is was only gross sexual sin they were guilty of.)
50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
This is for real people! They have support groups, forums, they put their garments on around their churchy friends and family and then take them off for fun!What is a New Order Mormon?
New Order Mormons are those who no longer believe some (or much) of the dogma or doctrines of the LDS Church, but who want to maintain membership for cultural, social, or even spiritual reasons. New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful. New Order Mormons seek the middle way to be Mormon.
Ha! Beautiful! Very well stated sir. I could not agree more. This is not a church bash, just an observation that I have long held. Often church leadership is simply not trained in the things of God enough to have the ability to teach people to be able to think on their own. They want you to do only what they tell you to, then become angry, (at least in my experience) when you question their advice. Such people may well be waiting for the Prophet to compel them in all things. This is not to say that most counsel is not good and to be considered and followed. Just please don't be a "morbot". That's a funny word.liberty wrote:I actually had a counselor in my Bishopric say "Dont go too far into the Church, you might end up not paying your taxes". Though I dont believe income tax is constitutional - I still pay them - I dont want to go through the hassel with the irs. Their are a few people in my ward who support constitutional gov - I think this is what motivated the comment.
It seems to me that those who have the problems with people going to extremes are the ones that need the counseling. But that is not the approach, the message is to be dependent on leaders and not learn to be independent. Leaders should be teaching memebers to evaluate information and have them make their own decisions.
Husband of Liberty
And both became quite agitated and accused me of pride. Seems the other way around to me.2 And it came to pass that after much labor among them, they began to have success among the poor class of people; for behold, they were cast out of the synagogues because of the coarseness of their apparel—
3 Therefore they were not permitted to enter into their synagogues to worship God, being esteemed as filthiness; therefore they were poor; yea, they were esteemed by their brethren as dross; therefore they were poor as to things of the world; and also they were poor in heart.
There must be opposition in all things.liberty wrote:We just had our ward conference. A member of the sp gave a talk on gospel hobbies and listed six: food storage, last days and fleeing to the "hills" - I dont remember the others.
Frankly, food storage is a lot better hobby than gambling or recreating on sunday. If they go to extremes - what ever that may be - is their business.
Maybe his list of hobbies will increase to 12 or 24.
I actually had a counselor in my Bishopric say "Dont go too far into the Church, you might end up not paying your taxes". Though I dont believe income tax is constitutional - I still pay them - I dont want to go through the hassel with the irs. Their are a few people in my ward who support constitutional gov - I think this is what motivated the comment.
It seems to me that those who have the problems with people going to extremes are the ones that need the counseling. But that is not the approach, the message is to be dependent on leaders and not learn to be independent. Leaders should be teaching memebers to evaluate information and have them make their own decisions.
Husband of Liberty
My wife was teaching the Gospel Doctrine class also. She was recently moved from that to teaching the youth (wonder why?Before he died he was teaching gospel doctrine class. A heavily attended, standing room only class. He taught it with great finesse as a NOM. He struggled with his membership. He saw good in the church and the people, but was not a believer in many aspects of "Mormonism." We were on the same page which helped a lot. Had he lived, I doubt we would have stayed involved with the church in the long run.
), even though many said she was the best teacher they have ever heard. And why? Because she taught the scriptures the the way that they are, and for what they are really saying -- even if it hurts, and certainly because she went deeper than the ankle deep Sunday School manuals. Ezekiel 16:
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
(Did we know that? We thought is was only gross sexual sin they were guilty of.)
50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
I'm hoping you don't see the above as a good thing.This is for real people! They have support groups, forums, they put their garments on around their churchy friends and family and then take them off for fun!
3 Nephi 27:
]21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;
22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.
ithink wrote: This is something Nibley mentioned too. He pointed out that in the writings of Abraham (if I remember correctly), it is not the sexual immorality alone that doomed Sodom, it was when Abraham saw their nets over the cherry trees that he knew the people would not repent. To not allow the birds their rightful food was an indicator that the situation was hopeless -- in other words they were extorting the land.
I'll dig it up for you.AussieOi wrote:ithink wrote: This is something Nibley mentioned too. He pointed out that in the writings of Abraham (if I remember correctly), it is not the sexual immorality alone that doomed Sodom, it was when Abraham saw their nets over the cherry trees that he knew the people would not repent. To not allow the birds their rightful food was an indicator that the situation was hopeless -- in other words they were extorting the land.
whaere the heck did he pull that one from? theres no evidence sodom even existed let alone nets and trees. gee, if we try that argument, planting seeds, tending land, irrigation, all out the window.
I never said his (administration) work was all good. Only that he was basically decent, was started with the intent to prevent the PTB, and was nearly killed for it - thus, he himself took baby steps - policy wise -- doing what little he could. He should not be lumped in with the active conspirators, as it appeared to me you were doing in your comments.Reagan's administration was responsible for a lot of bad.
ithink wrote:I'll dig it up for you.AussieOi wrote:ithink wrote: This is something Nibley mentioned too. He pointed out that in the writings of Abraham (if I remember correctly), it is not the sexual immorality alone that doomed Sodom, it was when Abraham saw their nets over the cherry trees that he knew the people would not repent. To not allow the birds their rightful food was an indicator that the situation was hopeless -- in other words they were extorting the land.
whaere the heck did he pull that one from? theres no evidence sodom even existed let alone nets and trees. gee, if we try that argument, planting seeds, tending land, irrigation, all out the window.
But no, don't think it's all out the window. In ancient Israel, farmers were required to NOT harvest the corners of their fields. That was to be left for poor and widows, and travelers. So to deny anyone traveling, for instance, of their God given "fair share" was to be an extortionist. This then includes the animals as well as people. It just smarts of the attitude of man throughout history of having to own everything.
We have a lot of agriculture around where I live, and we also have a lot of deer. I noticed many folks have deer fences around their garden plots, sometimes their properties, but there aren't any farmers with deer fences around their farms, because no matter how many deer there are, there are never enough to ruin the farm. Rabbits -- same thing. There's never enough -- when things are in normal balance -- to cause trouble. We all go about our business. But when we have a puny garden plot, well one set of territorial deer can ruin that, but I think we're talking about something larger here, like whole orchards and farms.
My dad had an orchard. The birds would ruin a certain amount of the fruit, but they couldn't ruin it all. What the fowl did was insignificant. To deny them of this insignificant (to us) amount is extortion, and it is the sign of a much deeper problem.
I'll dig up the source for you, may take a few days.
ithink
Darren wrote:When Christ lived on the earth and taught his gospel, most of the people of his Church did not recognize his teachings. They had all the words of the prophets testifying of his teachings as they had them in their scriptures, but the Jewish culture had at that time misunderstood his teachings and supplanted them with false doctrines.
Christ was killed because of his people not recognizing him from his earlier recorded teachings. They had darkened minds.
Joseph Smith has not been with us for over 160 years. If Joseph were to come back, without disclosing his true identity, and repeat his teachings today, most of the Church would probably want him excommunicated, or at least want him to not make them feel uncomfortable. The LDS culture has been sliding into the abyss of darkness, the culture of the Church has been gradually adopting the culture of Babylon.
Yes the Gospel is true. But who cares? Babylon is false, but it is popular.
When will we instead of practicing the Gospel, start living the Gospel? As soon as we discover a need to be more than a “tithing people” I suppose.
Darren
