Unity

[Rand]

OI, why do the scriptures contain almost exclusively those types of examples of testimony? So seldom do they talk of a testimony of the type we promote and experience today. It is there, but it is in the serious minority.

With the flawed example of faith, there is I am convinced the power of a false faith. If faith is the moving cause of all action in the universe and Satan can act and have power, it must at some level be based on a false faith.

[Original_Intent]

OI, why do the scriptures contain almost exclusively those types of examples of testimony? So seldom do they talk of a testimony of the type we promote and experience today. It is there, but it is in the serious minority.

With the flawed example of faith, there is I am convinced the power of a false faith. If faith is the moving cause of all action in the universe and Satan can act and have power, it must at some level be based on a false faith.

I'd say that the scriptures contain that example because it wouldn't be very inspiring to read "I really, really feel that these things are true!" And I am not saying we shouldn't be seeking more, of course we are to seek the second comforter. I guess my point is most of us are not writing scripture, and even if we have that experience there is every chance we will be commanded to keep it as a private, sacred experience. And for each of us, if we have been blessed with that "confidence in our testimony", personally and individually, I think we should be grateful for that, and wait patiently on the Lord for the when or if we receive more.

[Rand]

I hear you, but there is something in me that won't settle for the warm fuzzies. I feel that in the time to come, we will have to be as powerful at using the priesthood power as Elijah, BofJ, Enoch or any of the ancient prophets were. There is a depth of commitment and faith that the erly brethren and sisters had that I think we lack, and need to rediscover if we are to be successful ushering in the second coming. "Ask and ye shall receive," but "not to consume it upon your lusts." Seems a slight paradox we have to find our way through. Personally, I am looking.

[Original_Intent]

I don't disagree, and I don't know the answer. I don't think Moses got any free samples, he pretty much had to go on faith (I think).

So I am not sure we get to practice, we just need to be living so that we will be capable tools when needed. I'm a long ways from being there.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I think there is a lot to the idea that if it is expedient to God or not. If it is, we can be expanded with a gift of faith. If it is not expedient, then that gift may be withheld for the good of all. Thoughts?

I read once that God deliberately kept one of the churches early allies out of the church(I believe it was Thomas L. Kane). That made me think long and hard about the greater good and potential blessings denied. What an idea that God saw the end from the beginning and knows how best things will work out. How could we fault Him for letting us play our best part in it? I believe (and of course there is much evidence to support this) that we chose our course before this life and okay'd it (which honors our precious gift of agency). If God can keep us from the church and the attendant blessings for the greater good to be made up in eternity, then why not in the small things as well?

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

...I read quotes like "we may so live that the angels cannot be kept from being our associates" or "could not be kept from beholding without the veil," and wonder whether that degree of faith requires an actual experience that makes our faith knowledge (which cannot be true since it would then be knowledge and not faith). Sometimes I wonder why my faith does not allow me that privilege as it seems to me to border on knowledge. I have known at times that I was in the company of "angels," and yet I could not see them.

Laman and Lemuel saw, did it help their faith OR knowledge?I would say yes it gaev them a sure knowledge but that they still chose to go against that knowledge

If your faith borders on knowledge, would seeing really be a step forward? All of the sense can be deceived. I believe having a testimony from Heavenly Father in your heart is a greater blessing than a vision and more sure proof.I agree that a testimony is greater than knowledge because a testimony is the compelling force that allows us to stick with the truth, it is what Laman and Lemuel lacked. You claim it borders on knowledge, I would suggest it has already carried you to knowledge.

If you had a vision or other experience, would you have any more proof than you already have? Would you have tangible evidence that it actually happened.I believe so, by the same way that I have proof of my wife's love. It's not in the acts but the hard to quantify witness measured best by the heart (in and of itself the best tangible detector of such things).

If you have the gift of a testimony, you see you are surrounded by "proof". If you don't, then no amount of evidence is convincing.

Regarding the boy who tried to jump the stream - he didn't have faith he had hope and belief. We know that faith is a belief in things not seen WHICH ARE TRUE.

Or another angle is that he DID have faith but he came up short. But his faith never wavered, he kept going and jumping the stream, hoping/believing that he could do it, and thru the exercise of his faith (and his leg muscles!) his faith beomes knowledge when he succeeds.

My earliest memory was from when I was about 4 years old, and I had a dream about an angel. I was told that if I had faith I could do anything that I wanted. I asked "even fly?" and was told yes.

I spent all the next day flapping my arms, or just simply "willing" myself to fly. Seriously, the entire next day, just thinking if I had enough faith, it would happen. In case you missed the story from the Ogden Examiner during the summer of 1967, the one about the flying four year old - it wasn't due to the paper missing the story. )

However, roughly 30 years later I did solo in a Cessna. I never got my license, but at long last I did fly! Not the way I had envisioned, but I bet at some point in the eternities I will get to fly without the assistance of an airplane! (I'm sure President Uchtdorf would like to hear that story! =)) )

Great story! I often wonder how God travels from planet to planet, perhaps through the sun. I don't believe in time travel or else the atonement could never really be infinite and eternal as satan would always have the hope of traveling back in time and undoing it somehow and thus our faith could never really be whole knowing not all things as all things could and would always be in flux. At any rate he must get around rather well.

I think too many people miss the wonders that our senses really are. I had a lengthy discussion with an atheist once pressing him on life from non-life and such matters and then I finally asked him how he knew that his wife loved him and he her? It is hard to deny that love and religion are learned much the same way. What better instrument is there for detecting love than the human "heart?" He could no more prove his assertions of love than I could prove some of my claims of religious knowledge. Sure we have machines that can analyze the synapses firing and patterns of such and conclude that such and such pattern is love, but would we ever let that take the place of our hearts? Sure we could use a spectrometer or some such to analyze the smells of breakfast cooking in the morning mingled with our wife's perfume and the smell of fresh rain, but would we dare make our senses submissive to the mechanical and lose that? In the end truth is independent of us, we don't have to believe it nor follow it. It is objective and dispassionate. But we ignore it at our own peril.

It's hard to see what would be lost by actually seeing spirits that I know are in attendance, but as you point out it is likewise difficult to quantify what would be gained.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I feel that in the time to come, we will have to be as powerful at using the priesthood power as Elijah, BofJ, Enoch or any of the ancient prophets were. There is a depth of commitment and faith that the early brethren and sisters had that I think we lack, and need to rediscover if we are to be successful ushering in the second coming. "Ask and ye shall receive," but "not to consume it upon your lusts." Seems a slight paradox we have to find our way through. Personally, I am looking.

I absolutely agree with you. When I read of one or two putting ten thousand to flight and the like, I know that we will need more faith than previous generations, likely more than has ever been manifest on this earth on such a scale. There are many quotes to back this up such as the reverence our pioneer forbears will have for those of us who weather the trials of our day.

As the forces around us increase in intensity, whatever spiritual strength was once sufficient will not be enough.

Addressing the volunteer and staff instructors of the Church Educational System as part of a weeklong conference, Elder Eyring painted the picture of a world becoming increasingly tolerant of wickedness and said, "The spiritual strength sufficient for our youth to stand firm just a few years ago will soon not be enough."

"Many of [the youth] are remarkable in their spiritual maturity and in their faith. But even the best of them are sorely tested. And testing will become more severe."

Seems to be a theme of his.

[Rand]

Then what should we do? Be satisfied with what God will give us as we are, or relentlessly seek to qualify our faith and see beyond the veil, and seek the power prophets of old demonstrated? I think we need to aggressively seek the gifts of old to help to usher in the next dispensation. It feels to me that if we set back and wait, we become a part of the problem.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Rand and others: Yes, we should desire and seek for the powers that the Priesthood is capable of, just as we should seek for the best gifts. I would argue," why wait for the future?" Why not actively seek and practice the Fullness of the Priesthood NOW of course always doing so according to God's will. Why NOT use the Fullness to physically dsstory our enemies trying to detroy us? IF we do travel out of Bablyon to the wilderness of say the Mountain West, the Fullness will be needed many times as we travel. If we do so and stay in the bwilderness for months, our food supply will run out. Could we use the Fullnes as Jeus did and make the fishes and bread expand to feed thousands?

Whta say ye?