Unity

[AussieOi]

This is something Nibley mentioned too. He pointed out that in the writings of Abraham (if I remember correctly), it is not the sexual immorality alone that doomed Sodom, it was when Abraham saw their nets over the cherry trees that he knew the people would not repent. To not allow the birds their rightful food was an indicator that the situation was hopeless -- in other words they were extorting the land.

whaere the heck did he pull that one from? theres no evidence sodom even existed let alone nets and trees. gee, if we try that argument, planting seeds, tending land, irrigation, all out the window.

I'll dig it up for you.

But no, don't think it's all out the window. In ancient Israel, farmers were required to NOT harvest the corners of their fields. That was to be left for poor and widows, and travelers. So to deny anyone traveling, for instance, of their God given "fair share" was to be an extortionist. This then includes the animals as well as people. It just smarts of the attitude of man throughout history of having to own everything.

We have a lot of agriculture around where I live, and we also have a lot of deer. I noticed many folks have deer fences around their garden plots, sometimes their properties, but there aren't any farmers with deer fences around their farms, because no matter how many deer there are, there are never enough to ruin the farm. Rabbits -- same thing. There's never enough -- when things are in normal balance -- to cause trouble. We all go about our business. But when we have a puny garden plot, well one set of territorial deer can ruin that, but I think we're talking about something larger here, like whole orchards and farms.

My dad had an orchard. The birds would ruin a certain amount of the fruit, but they couldn't ruin it all. What the fowl did was insignificant. To deny them of this insignificant (to us) amount is extortion, and it is the sign of a much deeper problem.

I'll dig up the source for you, may take a few days.

ithink

hmm. being abraham - you know, Jacobs grandfather, I reckon that would be_very_early Israel. i'll go with SODOMite as my guess for the reaon.

[liberty]

buffalo girl

You hit the nail on the head. The Church is perfect and is all true. The people(leaders and members) may not be. Even some core doctrines introduced by men in the church are suspect.

For example, the Atonement. I attended a meeting in Bro Skousens home and the Atonement was discussed. He said that John Widtsoe had introduced a different position on the Atonement to the Twelve. But there was not a consensus, so the traditional view was held.

Personally, I believe the church has priesthood authority and that is enough for me.

Husband of Liberty

[buffalo_girl]

Yes, that is exactly what we need to remember, and I must add, not always easy especially when those in positions of leadership disappoint us.

The Church is the house in which we 'practice' living the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We get thrown in with all sorts of people we wouldn't probably associate with otherwise in our "worldly" lives. Just like in any family, we learn as we go along how to DO what is loving by applying correct and true principles through inspiration, promptings, and personal revelation from the Holy Spirit.

[Darren]

When Christ lived on the earth and taught his gospel, most of the people of his Church did not recognize his teachings. They had all the words of the prophets testifying of his teachings as they had them in their scriptures, but the Jewish culture had at that time misunderstood his teachings and supplanted them with false doctrines.

Christ was killed because of his people not recognizing him from his earlier recorded teachings. They had darkened minds.

Joseph Smith has not been with us for over 160 years. If Joseph were to come back, without disclosing his true identity, and repeat his teachings today, most of the Church would probably want him excommunicated, or at least want him to not make them feel uncomfortable. The LDS culture has been sliding into the abyss of darkness, the culture of the Church has been gradually adopting the culture of Babylon.

Yes the Gospel is true. But who cares? Babylon is false, but it is popular.

When will we instead of practicing the Gospel, start living the Gospel? As soon as we discover a need to be more than a “tithing people” I suppose.

Darren

[ShawnC]

When Christ lived on the earth and taught his gospel, most of the people of his Church did not recognize his teachings. They had all the words of the prophets testifying of his teachings as they had them in their scriptures, but the Jewish culture had at that time misunderstood his teachings and supplanted them with false doctrines.

Christ was killed because of his people not recognizing him from his earlier recorded teachings. They had darkened minds.

Joseph Smith has not been with us for over 160 years. If Joseph were to come back, without disclosing his true identity, and repeat his teachings today, most of the Church would probably want him excommunicated, or at least want him to not make them feel uncomfortable. The LDS culture has been sliding into the abyss of darkness, the culture of the Church has been gradually adopting the culture of Babylon.

Yes the Gospel is true. But who cares? Babylon is false, but it is popular.

When will we instead of practicing the Gospel, start living the Gospel? As soon as we discover a need to be more than a “tithing people” I suppose.

Darren

Darren,

Thank you, I 100% agree. It seems that simply trying to even discuss something of a deeper nature in Gospel Doctrine, or with individuals immediately gets shot down. At least my own experience shows me this sometimes.
I have been striving to live the WoW as much as possible, as well as praying for the promised spiritual blessings that such teaches. I have discussed this with others in church and tried to propose ideas about how to do this and I am simply mocked for it. I think it was Pitchfire (forgive me please if wrong) who said one time that 300 lb. beef fed men in church stand up and admonish us to live the word of wisdom. Teaching others to live the gospel and to find answers for themselves is probably better taught through action and not just words.

Shawn

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

It reminds me once again of the dramatized church history tape on the last days where a ward joins together to head for Utah "where there's still good government." My M-I-L seems to have misplaced her tapes, does anybody else have that tape? They get close and a helicopter with a beehive on it comes out to meet them.

My mother in law finally sent the tapes! It was everything I remembered and more. I have to transfer it to my computer. In it a family is having family home evening talking about scenarios for the last days and the home teachers stop by and tell them to bring their food storage, firearms and camping stuff and not much more. There is an argument about sharing food storage until the bishop says that you're either or saint or you aren't. They negotiate with a mob of men that have left their families and try to get them to recover their families and join them in traveling to Utah where there is still good government. The indian tribes held together and act as guides and scouts to the party on it's way into Utah. Pretty cool for a 1980 audio bit.

[Rand]

This was an interesting thread. I need to look up your posts on faith.

I would love to have an insightful and non contentious thread on what faith is.

Let me use an example I have made up that can be a beginning: A Jeffrey slides into the circle of his friends. They are in a grassy glade in the common ground. This is where the boys always meet. They are sitting next to the stream. Jeffrey breaks into the conversation, as is his habit,"But I can jump the stream". Billy calls his bluff. "No you can't." "Can to" says Jeffrey. Prove it" challenges Billy. Gulp. Jeffrey believes he can do it. So he stands up, still in his Sunday shoes. "Okay, I will." He backs up as far as he can, runs as fast as he can, and as his last step plants on the edge of the bank of the stream, he has belief no more. He now has faith. As his feet land in the water and mud near the opposite bank, he now has knowledge. Walking home, mud and water squishing through each toe with each step, muttering to himself about how dead he is going to be when he gets there, he pauses, and says out loud, "I bet I could have made it if I had on my tennis shoes." And his belief plants another seed.

Thoughts?

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Good analogy! I often wonder when faith becomes knowledge. Does it require a proving experience or can a searing conviction become knowledge without actual proof? I think the "scriptures" are often "confusing" on many fine points , so you could probably argue either convincingly from them.

I read quotes like "we may so live that the angels cannot be kept from being our associates" or "could not be kept from beholding without the veil," and wonder whether that degree of faith requires an actual experience that makes our faith knowledge (which cannot be true since it would then be knowledge and not faith). Sometimes I wonder why my faith does not allow me that privilege as it seems to me to border on knowledge. I have known at times that I was in the company of "angels," and yet I could not see them.

Certainly a few had that kind of faith and we know that the spirit world is here among us, but then does it follow that the brother of Jared could always see them all (the spirit world) as opposed to a one time thing as needed?

Faith (as in the analogy you laid out) is proved by the exercise of it (not that faith is an action, but that it is proven by action). Perhaps a better question to ask myself is how might my faith (perhaps sufficient to behold beyond the veil) be put to action? That brings to mind me straining my eyes like one would at a "Magic Eye" puzzle trying to see beyond the veil (a humorous thought).

I have reflected upon this often and always conclude that I don't need it nor necessarily desire it (my progression may well be hindered through the lack of the exercise of faith). We could have everything handed to us and proven to us as pure knowledge but then what good would it do us? Obviously the exercise of faith is good and proper for us. Does that faith becoming knowledge signal the moment that ceases to be true and we may then progress best by relying upon that knowledge and no longer exercising faith in that thing? I don't know.

Certainly every truth increases our faith as it refines our understanding of God and hence we may better exercise faith in Him. Is faith as good as knowledge? If it compels us to the same action then it should be shouldn't it? Either we have "faith sufficient to..." or we do not. A pure knowledge would no more help us do that thing than sufficient faith. Of course it might take the edge off of our nerves!

What do you think?

Oh and for the record I can never forget that Reagen lied under oath regarding the Iran Contra Affair. Perhaps some blame his memory loss, but either way he knew the record and knew of his involvement in the "scandal." Of course I forgive him, but as to his record as president it remains an eternal taint.

[Rand]

Good analogy! I often wonder when faith becomes knowledge. Does it require a proving experience or can a searing conviction become knowledge without actual proof? I think the "scriptures" are often "confusing" on many fine points , so you could probably argue either convincingly from them.

I read quotes like "we may so live that the angels cannot be kept from being our associates" or "could not be kept from beholding without the veil," and wonder whether that degree of faith requires an actual experience that makes our faith knowledge (which cannot be true since it would then be knowledge and not faith). Sometimes I wonder why my faith does not allow me that privilege as it seems to me to border on knowledge. I have known at times that I was in the company of "angels," and yet I could not see them.

Certainly a few had that kind of faith and we know that the spirit world is here among us, but then does it follow that the brother of Jared could always see them all (the spirit world) as opposed to a one time thing as needed?

Faith (as in the analogy you laid out) is proved by the exercise of it (not that faith is an action, but that it is proven by action). Perhaps a better question to ask myself is how might my faith (perhaps sufficient to behold beyond the veil) be put to action? That brings to mind me straining my eyes like one would at a "Magic Eye" puzzle trying to see beyond the veil (a humorous thought).

I have reflected upon this often and always conclude that I don't need it nor necessarily desire it (my progression may well be hindered through the lack of the exercise of faith). We could have everything handed to us and proven to us as pure knowledge but then what good would it do us? Obviously the exercise of faith is good and proper for us. Does that faith becoming knowledge signal the moment that ceases to be true and we may then progress best by relying upon that knowledge and no longer exercising faith in that thing? I don't know.

Certainly every truth increases our faith as it refines our understanding of God and hence we may better exercise faith in Him. Is faith as good as knowledge? If it compels us to the same action then it should be shouldn't it? Either we have "faith sufficient to..." or we do not. A pure knowledge would no more help us do that thing than sufficient faith. Of course it might take the edge off of our nerves!

What do you think?

Oh and for the record I can never forget that Reagen lied under oath regarding the Iran Contra Affair. Perhaps some blame his memory loss, but either way he knew the record and knew of his involvement in the "scandal." Of course I forgive him, but as to his record as president it remains an eternal taint.

I love these questions and the thinking. I love the virtue of faith and will enjoy learning from you. I have always believed that faith is not an internally generated virtue but a gift from God. God determines what will be best for your eternal progression, if it is a personal visit from the Savior, it will occur. If seeing the ever present angels is best, you will get to have that interview. If that experience will increase the burden that a future poor choice would cause, you will not see the angel. I have the feeling that in the coming days our faith will be expanded to match our challenges. We will be doing things that currently would stretch our capacities beyond breaking under the burden of pride, selfishness and arrogance. I know if I could walk on water, I would catch myself never walking around a lake again.

You said, "Does that faith becoming knowledge signal the moment that ceases to be true and we may then progress best by relying upon that knowledge and no longer exercising faith in that thing?" I think you are right. I remember having a spiritual experience one time, and it paused and I felt a voice inside ask, "Do you want to see more?" With that question came the awareness of the burden it would levy upon me, the sacrifice it would demand and I hesitantly said "No." I still wonder if I made the right choice. I think so.

I think there is a lot to the idea that if it is expedient to God or not. If it is, we can be expanded with a gift of faith. If it is not expedient, then that gift may be withheld for the good of all. Thoughts?

[Original_Intent]

...I read quotes like "we may so live that the angels cannot be kept from being our associates" or "could not be kept from beholding without the veil," and wonder whether that degree of faith requires an actual experience that makes our faith knowledge (which cannot be true since it would then be knowledge and not faith). Sometimes I wonder why my faith does not allow me that privilege as it seems to me to border on knowledge. I have known at times that I was in the company of "angels," and yet I could not see them.

Laman and Lemuel saw, did it help their faith OR knowledge?

If your faith borders on knowledge, would seeing really be a step forward? All of the sense can be deceived. I believe having a testimony from Heavenly Father in your heart is a greater blessing than a vision and more sure proof. You claim it borders on knowledge, I would suggest it has already carried you to knowledge.

If you had a vision or other experience, would you have any more proof than you already have? Would you have tangible evidence that it actually happened.

If you have the gift of a testimony, you see you are surrounded by "proof". If you don't, then no amount of evidence is convincing.

Regarding the boy who tried to jump the stream - he didn't have faith he had hope and belief. We know that faith is a belief in things not seen WHICH ARE TRUE.

Or another angle is that he DID have faith but he came up short. But his faith never wavered, he kept going and jumping the stream, hoping/believing that he could do it, and thru the exercise of his faith (and his leg muscles!) his faith beomes knowledge when he succeeds.

My earliest memory was from when I was about 4 years old, and I had a dream about an angel. I was told that if I had faith I could do anything that I wanted. I asked "even fly?" and was told yes.

I spent all the next day flapping my arms, or just simply "willing" myself to fly. Seriously, the entire next day, just thinking if I had enough faith, it would happen. In case you missed the story from the Ogden Examiner during the summer of 1967, the one about the flying four year old - it wasn't due to the paper missing the story. )

However, roughly 30 years later I did solo in a Cessna. I never got my license, but at long last I did fly! Not the way I had envisioned, but I bet at some point in the eternities I will get to fly without the assistance of an airplane! (I'm sure President Uchtdorf would like to hear that story! =)) )

[Rand]

OI, why do the scriptures contain almost exclusively those types of examples of testimony? So seldom do they talk of a testimony of the type we promote and experience today. It is there, but it is in the serious minority.

With the flawed example of faith, there is I am convinced the power of a false faith. If faith is the moving cause of all action in the universe and Satan can act and have power, it must at some level be based on a false faith.

[Original_Intent]

OI, why do the scriptures contain almost exclusively those types of examples of testimony? So seldom do they talk of a testimony of the type we promote and experience today. It is there, but it is in the serious minority.

With the flawed example of faith, there is I am convinced the power of a false faith. If faith is the moving cause of all action in the universe and Satan can act and have power, it must at some level be based on a false faith.

I'd say that the scriptures contain that example because it wouldn't be very inspiring to read "I really, really feel that these things are true!" And I am not saying we shouldn't be seeking more, of course we are to seek the second comforter. I guess my point is most of us are not writing scripture, and even if we have that experience there is every chance we will be commanded to keep it as a private, sacred experience. And for each of us, if we have been blessed with that "confidence in our testimony", personally and individually, I think we should be grateful for that, and wait patiently on the Lord for the when or if we receive more.

[Rand]

I hear you, but there is something in me that won't settle for the warm fuzzies. I feel that in the time to come, we will have to be as powerful at using the priesthood power as Elijah, BofJ, Enoch or any of the ancient prophets were. There is a depth of commitment and faith that the erly brethren and sisters had that I think we lack, and need to rediscover if we are to be successful ushering in the second coming. "Ask and ye shall receive," but "not to consume it upon your lusts." Seems a slight paradox we have to find our way through. Personally, I am looking.

[Original_Intent]

I don't disagree, and I don't know the answer. I don't think Moses got any free samples, he pretty much had to go on faith (I think).

So I am not sure we get to practice, we just need to be living so that we will be capable tools when needed. I'm a long ways from being there.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I think there is a lot to the idea that if it is expedient to God or not. If it is, we can be expanded with a gift of faith. If it is not expedient, then that gift may be withheld for the good of all. Thoughts?

I read once that God deliberately kept one of the churches early allies out of the church(I believe it was Thomas L. Kane). That made me think long and hard about the greater good and potential blessings denied. What an idea that God saw the end from the beginning and knows how best things will work out. How could we fault Him for letting us play our best part in it? I believe (and of course there is much evidence to support this) that we chose our course before this life and okay'd it (which honors our precious gift of agency). If God can keep us from the church and the attendant blessings for the greater good to be made up in eternity, then why not in the small things as well?

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

...I read quotes like "we may so live that the angels cannot be kept from being our associates" or "could not be kept from beholding without the veil," and wonder whether that degree of faith requires an actual experience that makes our faith knowledge (which cannot be true since it would then be knowledge and not faith). Sometimes I wonder why my faith does not allow me that privilege as it seems to me to border on knowledge. I have known at times that I was in the company of "angels," and yet I could not see them.

Laman and Lemuel saw, did it help their faith OR knowledge?I would say yes it gaev them a sure knowledge but that they still chose to go against that knowledge

If your faith borders on knowledge, would seeing really be a step forward? All of the sense can be deceived. I believe having a testimony from Heavenly Father in your heart is a greater blessing than a vision and more sure proof.I agree that a testimony is greater than knowledge because a testimony is the compelling force that allows us to stick with the truth, it is what Laman and Lemuel lacked. You claim it borders on knowledge, I would suggest it has already carried you to knowledge.

If you had a vision or other experience, would you have any more proof than you already have? Would you have tangible evidence that it actually happened.I believe so, by the same way that I have proof of my wife's love. It's not in the acts but the hard to quantify witness measured best by the heart (in and of itself the best tangible detector of such things).

If you have the gift of a testimony, you see you are surrounded by "proof". If you don't, then no amount of evidence is convincing.

Regarding the boy who tried to jump the stream - he didn't have faith he had hope and belief. We know that faith is a belief in things not seen WHICH ARE TRUE.

Or another angle is that he DID have faith but he came up short. But his faith never wavered, he kept going and jumping the stream, hoping/believing that he could do it, and thru the exercise of his faith (and his leg muscles!) his faith beomes knowledge when he succeeds.

My earliest memory was from when I was about 4 years old, and I had a dream about an angel. I was told that if I had faith I could do anything that I wanted. I asked "even fly?" and was told yes.

I spent all the next day flapping my arms, or just simply "willing" myself to fly. Seriously, the entire next day, just thinking if I had enough faith, it would happen. In case you missed the story from the Ogden Examiner during the summer of 1967, the one about the flying four year old - it wasn't due to the paper missing the story. )

However, roughly 30 years later I did solo in a Cessna. I never got my license, but at long last I did fly! Not the way I had envisioned, but I bet at some point in the eternities I will get to fly without the assistance of an airplane! (I'm sure President Uchtdorf would like to hear that story! =)) )

Great story! I often wonder how God travels from planet to planet, perhaps through the sun. I don't believe in time travel or else the atonement could never really be infinite and eternal as satan would always have the hope of traveling back in time and undoing it somehow and thus our faith could never really be whole knowing not all things as all things could and would always be in flux. At any rate he must get around rather well.

I think too many people miss the wonders that our senses really are. I had a lengthy discussion with an atheist once pressing him on life from non-life and such matters and then I finally asked him how he knew that his wife loved him and he her? It is hard to deny that love and religion are learned much the same way. What better instrument is there for detecting love than the human "heart?" He could no more prove his assertions of love than I could prove some of my claims of religious knowledge. Sure we have machines that can analyze the synapses firing and patterns of such and conclude that such and such pattern is love, but would we ever let that take the place of our hearts? Sure we could use a spectrometer or some such to analyze the smells of breakfast cooking in the morning mingled with our wife's perfume and the smell of fresh rain, but would we dare make our senses submissive to the mechanical and lose that? In the end truth is independent of us, we don't have to believe it nor follow it. It is objective and dispassionate. But we ignore it at our own peril.

It's hard to see what would be lost by actually seeing spirits that I know are in attendance, but as you point out it is likewise difficult to quantify what would be gained.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

I feel that in the time to come, we will have to be as powerful at using the priesthood power as Elijah, BofJ, Enoch or any of the ancient prophets were. There is a depth of commitment and faith that the early brethren and sisters had that I think we lack, and need to rediscover if we are to be successful ushering in the second coming. "Ask and ye shall receive," but "not to consume it upon your lusts." Seems a slight paradox we have to find our way through. Personally, I am looking.

I absolutely agree with you. When I read of one or two putting ten thousand to flight and the like, I know that we will need more faith than previous generations, likely more than has ever been manifest on this earth on such a scale. There are many quotes to back this up such as the reverence our pioneer forbears will have for those of us who weather the trials of our day.

As the forces around us increase in intensity, whatever spiritual strength was once sufficient will not be enough.

Addressing the volunteer and staff instructors of the Church Educational System as part of a weeklong conference, Elder Eyring painted the picture of a world becoming increasingly tolerant of wickedness and said, "The spiritual strength sufficient for our youth to stand firm just a few years ago will soon not be enough."

"Many of [the youth] are remarkable in their spiritual maturity and in their faith. But even the best of them are sorely tested. And testing will become more severe."

Seems to be a theme of his.

[Rand]

Then what should we do? Be satisfied with what God will give us as we are, or relentlessly seek to qualify our faith and see beyond the veil, and seek the power prophets of old demonstrated? I think we need to aggressively seek the gifts of old to help to usher in the next dispensation. It feels to me that if we set back and wait, we become a part of the problem.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Rand and others: Yes, we should desire and seek for the powers that the Priesthood is capable of, just as we should seek for the best gifts. I would argue," why wait for the future?" Why not actively seek and practice the Fullness of the Priesthood NOW of course always doing so according to God's will. Why NOT use the Fullness to physically dsstory our enemies trying to detroy us? IF we do travel out of Bablyon to the wilderness of say the Mountain West, the Fullness will be needed many times as we travel. If we do so and stay in the bwilderness for months, our food supply will run out. Could we use the Fullnes as Jeus did and make the fishes and bread expand to feed thousands?

Whta say ye?