Voting on principle

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larsenb
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by larsenb »

iWriteStuff wrote: . . . . I won't vote Trump because that says I'm ok with his candidacy. I'm not. It would be a positive affirmation that I stand with him. I don't. A vote is NOT a negative statement - you don't get to vote "No" for every candidate you don't like. You only get one "Yes". This is why I am putting my "Yes" behind someone I CAN support, CAN stand by, and DO positively endorse. How hard is that to understand?

Go on talking like the only way to vote "No" on Hillary is to vote for Trump. But it's shallow democracy and a horrible use of your constitutional rights. If you truly love Trump, then vote for him. But don't blow your chance to positively affirm your values by voting for someone you don't believe in.
Actually this is a very logical position for you to take if you see Hillary and Trump about on par, with both leading to the same types of disaster if elected.

One gets the impression that many who are touting a 3rd Party candidate for the first time after having voted Republican in previous elections, have this particular view. You actually come across this way in most of your posts on this issue.

However, those who abhor going from Republican to 3rd Party have a much, much darker view of a Hillary Presidency. I'm one of those. But I"m going in the opposite direction: coming from the position of having voted 3rd party in all but one election since about 2002, to voting Republican.

And I'm switching to voting Republican for the very principled purpose and reason of trying to save the country. Hillary, if elected, will almost certainly administer the coup de grace to our country. I simply don't see Trump doing anything remotely like this. And hopefully, quite the opposite.

larsenb
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by larsenb »

BrianM wrote:
Ezra wrote:How is it's that is the vast minority's fault for the majority's decisions to vote for evil? That is insane. You are smarter then that I hope. If you want to blame the few for the continued fault of the many. You have every right To believe that delusional thinking.
Exactly. The majority continues to vote for evil and looks down on those who didn't vote for their brand of evil. It's literally over 97% that are voting for evil in most national elections.
Brian, you are one who hasn't voted Republican for how many years? Quite a few, I venture. So you're kind of removed from this dilemma.

For me, as indicated by my post above, avoiding a 3rd Party vote this time around, has more to do with keeping Hillary out and by so doing, staving off the destruction of our country . . or slowing it down significantly.

It follows then that, for me, at least, the principle of saving the country 'trumps' the principle of voting for the squeaky clean, politically pristine candidate. So, it's not a matter of "looking down on those" who didn't vote for their brand of evil", it's more like dismay over those who don't see the absolute danger of a Hillary Presidency.

Silver
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by Silver »

larsenb wrote:And I'm switching to voting Republican for the very principled purpose and reason of trying to save the country. Hillary, if elected, will almost certainly administer the coup de grace to our country. I simply don't see Trump doing anything remotely like this. And hopefully, quite the opposite.
OK, I'll do it. I'll be the bearer of bad news. We thank you for your principled 3rd party votes in the past. You were quite courageous in trying to convince others to join you. But as for saving the country, you're too late. Or rather, I should say that it's too late. We are too wicked. God's blessings are being withdrawn. Assets are becoming slippery. We're in the final tailspin and even a Trump presidency will not save the country. You and all others should prepare for that eventuality and, one last time, to stick it in the eye of the Dems and Reps and the Luciferians who control them, vote 3rd party. That's what I'm doing.

JJ3
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by JJ3 »

AI2.0 wrote:
JJ3 wrote:I'm concerned that too often members of the church are afraid to vote for candidates with a realistic chance of winning because they feel the candidates are flawed. In an ideal world we can choose ideal candidates, but as is plainly obvious, we do not live in an ideal world. Perfection does not exist in politics and until the Savior comes again, will not. We are encouraged to participate in elections and to vote. Too often we make false assumptions without prayerfully involving God in the political decision making process. I encourage everyone to vote and in preparation for that voting to pray often and in earnest for guidance in how to vote. God is the only source that will never mislead a sincere person seeking his help. Media, politicians and even honest and good people will all fall short, so please humble yourselves and seek out God's guidance. Do not assume that principle means throwing away your vote on candidates with no serious chance of victory.
Sorry, but your last statement revealed your true intent. You are assuming that if a person chooses to vote for a candidate 'with no serious chance of victory', then they didn't pray about it. You also showed your bias by condemning them of 'throwing away their vote'. Did you say this about the people who voted for Ron Paul during the last election? Did they 'throw away their vote'? If voting for one's candidate is 'throwing away their vote', then maybe you should just suggest they stay home and not bother.

It's pretty obvious you don't want us to pray about it, you just want us to vote for your candidate.
No, I do not make those assumptions, however there is more at stake than do you have to vote for a less than ideal candidate. If you like Hillary then vote for her. If you like one of the 3rd party candidates by all means vote for them, but if you do, don't be surprised when if Hillary wins things get much worse. My point in telling people to pray is that too often people forget. Beyond that I want to make it clear that too many of the principles people tout in going 3rd party are individual and not gospel. As long as people realize that then they can do as they like. The gospel does not forbid a vote for damage control or the lesser of 2 evils if you will. We vote for the choices we have, not those we wish we had. In a way it is like life. We take what comes.

Silver
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by Silver »

JJ3 wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:
JJ3 wrote:I'm concerned that too often members of the church are afraid to vote for candidates with a realistic chance of winning because they feel the candidates are flawed. In an ideal world we can choose ideal candidates, but as is plainly obvious, we do not live in an ideal world. Perfection does not exist in politics and until the Savior comes again, will not. We are encouraged to participate in elections and to vote. Too often we make false assumptions without prayerfully involving God in the political decision making process. I encourage everyone to vote and in preparation for that voting to pray often and in earnest for guidance in how to vote. God is the only source that will never mislead a sincere person seeking his help. Media, politicians and even honest and good people will all fall short, so please humble yourselves and seek out God's guidance. Do not assume that principle means throwing away your vote on candidates with no serious chance of victory.
Sorry, but your last statement revealed your true intent. You are assuming that if a person chooses to vote for a candidate 'with no serious chance of victory', then they didn't pray about it. You also showed your bias by condemning them of 'throwing away their vote'. Did you say this about the people who voted for Ron Paul during the last election? Did they 'throw away their vote'? If voting for one's candidate is 'throwing away their vote', then maybe you should just suggest they stay home and not bother.

It's pretty obvious you don't want us to pray about it, you just want us to vote for your candidate.
No, I do not make those assumptions, however there is more at stake than do you have to vote for a less than ideal candidate. If you like Hillary then vote for her. If you like one of the 3rd party candidates by all means vote for them, but if you do, don't be surprised when if Hillary wins things get much worse. My point in telling people to pray is that too often people forget. Beyond that I want to make it clear that too many of the principles people tout in going 3rd party are individual and not gospel. As long as people realize that then they can do as they like. The gospel does not forbid a vote for damage control or the lesser of 2 evils if you will. We vote for the choices we have, not those we wish we had. In a way it is like life. We take what comes.
That's some tortuous logic you're employing there. Did you not read the quotes earlier in the thread that clearly and succinctly refute what you're claiming?

And as for your allowing us to do what we like, you must not realize how condescending that sounds.

JJ3
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by JJ3 »

Silver wrote:
JJ3 wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:
JJ3 wrote:I'm concerned that too often members of the church are afraid to vote for candidates with a realistic chance of winning because they feel the candidates are flawed. In an ideal world we can choose ideal candidates, but as is plainly obvious, we do not live in an ideal world. Perfection does not exist in politics and until the Savior comes again, will not. We are encouraged to participate in elections and to vote. Too often we make false assumptions without prayerfully involving God in the political decision making process. I encourage everyone to vote and in preparation for that voting to pray often and in earnest for guidance in how to vote. God is the only source that will never mislead a sincere person seeking his help. Media, politicians and even honest and good people will all fall short, so please humble yourselves and seek out God's guidance. Do not assume that principle means throwing away your vote on candidates with no serious chance of victory.
Sorry, but your last statement revealed your true intent. You are assuming that if a person chooses to vote for a candidate 'with no serious chance of victory', then they didn't pray about it. You also showed your bias by condemning them of 'throwing away their vote'. Did you say this about the people who voted for Ron Paul during the last election? Did they 'throw away their vote'? If voting for one's candidate is 'throwing away their vote', then maybe you should just suggest they stay home and not bother.

It's pretty obvious you don't want us to pray about it, you just want us to vote for your candidate.
No, I do not make those assumptions, however there is more at stake than do you have to vote for a less than ideal candidate. If you like Hillary then vote for her. If you like one of the 3rd party candidates by all means vote for them, but if you do, don't be surprised when if Hillary wins things get much worse. My point in telling people to pray is that too often people forget. Beyond that I want to make it clear that too many of the principles people tout in going 3rd party are individual and not gospel. As long as people realize that then they can do as they like. The gospel does not forbid a vote for damage control or the lesser of 2 evils if you will. We vote for the choices we have, not those we wish we had. In a way it is like life. We take what comes.
That's some tortuous logic you're employing there. Did you not read the quotes earlier in the thread that clearly and succinctly refute what you're claiming?

And as for your allowing us to do what we like, you must not realize how condescending that sounds.
The logic is sound. Too often we build principles of our own that do go far beyond what the gospel requires. Read the voting history of the church and you will find that Joseph Smith essentially sold his vote to a candidate who represented him in a trial. The candidate received his vote but not the votes of the church as he assumed he would and became bitter. The church members in Utah did not support Lincoln when he ran, yet nowhere was he more mourned than in Utah when he died. History shows many large scale assumptions based on principles that were very much outside the gospel. This is not an ideal world and we are not given ideal choices so we must make the best choices before us and if that means you vote 3rd Party and with the many others that allows Hillary into office then we all have to live with the consequences of your principles. Damage control is not a forbidden interest in the gospel. Those who assume that a tainted candidate is one they cannot vote for forget who the Savior associated with in life. Vote how you will but understand there are consequences beyond the imperfections or ideals of your candidate. Prayer only serves as a help if it is sincere and sincere people with different interests can be led in different directions but only to a point.

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AI2.0
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by AI2.0 »

Silver wrote:
larsenb wrote:And I'm switching to voting Republican for the very principled purpose and reason of trying to save the country. Hillary, if elected, will almost certainly administer the coup de grace to our country. I simply don't see Trump doing anything remotely like this. And hopefully, quite the opposite.
OK, I'll do it. I'll be the bearer of bad news. We thank you for your principled 3rd party votes in the past. You were quite courageous in trying to convince others to join you. But as for saving the country, you're too late. Or rather, I should say that it's too late. We are too wicked. God's blessings are being withdrawn. Assets are becoming slippery. We're in the final tailspin and even a Trump presidency will not save the country. You and all others should prepare for that eventuality and, one last time, to stick it in the eye of the Dems and Reps and the Luciferians who control them, vote 3rd party. That's what I'm doing.
Absolutely. Where was larsenb and the others who stood on principle, abstaining or voting 3rd party for the last decade???? We didn't get in this mess in just the last four years, it's been developing over several presidencies. Frankly, some of us believed that our last hope to turn things around was 2012 and we voted for Romney to stop Obama from continuing his 'fundamental transformation' of our country, but they refused to recognize the threat Obama was--even after his first disastrous four years of running the country into the ground. In 2012, many stayed home or they voted with the Ron Paul revolution. Now, I suspect that many of those people are now supporting Trump and suddenly, standing on principle is wrong. What a double standard.

So for those of you who sat out earlier elections or voted 3rd party, who NOW think we need to 'save the country' from Horrible Hillary, where were YOU in 2012? If Romney had won in 2012, Clinton would have been diminished and maybe the media would have exposed her pay for play antics with her 'foundation'--she'd never have been secretary of state and done all the damage there... events would have changed and she might not have even been in the running this election cycle...

JJ3
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by JJ3 »

AI2.0 wrote:
So for those of you who sat out earlier elections or voted 3rd party, who NOW think we need to 'save the country' from Horrible Hillary, where were YOU in 2012? If Romney had won in 2012, Clinton would have been diminished and maybe the media would have exposed her pay for play antics with her 'foundation'--she'd never have been secretary of state and done all the damage there... events would have changed and she might not have even been in the running this election cycle...
Here I agree with you whole heartily. This damage was done under our very principled noses.

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AI2.0
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by AI2.0 »

JJ3 wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:
JJ3 wrote:I'm concerned that too often members of the church are afraid to vote for candidates with a realistic chance of winning because they feel the candidates are flawed. In an ideal world we can choose ideal candidates, but as is plainly obvious, we do not live in an ideal world. Perfection does not exist in politics and until the Savior comes again, will not. We are encouraged to participate in elections and to vote. Too often we make false assumptions without prayerfully involving God in the political decision making process. I encourage everyone to vote and in preparation for that voting to pray often and in earnest for guidance in how to vote. God is the only source that will never mislead a sincere person seeking his help. Media, politicians and even honest and good people will all fall short, so please humble yourselves and seek out God's guidance. Do not assume that principle means throwing away your vote on candidates with no serious chance of victory.
Sorry, but your last statement revealed your true intent. You are assuming that if a person chooses to vote for a candidate 'with no serious chance of victory', then they didn't pray about it. You also showed your bias by condemning them of 'throwing away their vote'. Did you say this about the people who voted for Ron Paul during the last election? Did they 'throw away their vote'? If voting for one's candidate is 'throwing away their vote', then maybe you should just suggest they stay home and not bother.

It's pretty obvious you don't want us to pray about it, you just want us to vote for your candidate.
No, I do not make those assumptions, however there is more at stake than do you have to vote for a less than ideal candidate. If you like Hillary then vote for her. If you like one of the 3rd party candidates by all means vote for them, but if you do, don't be surprised when if Hillary wins things get much worse. My point in telling people to pray is that too often people forget. Beyond that I want to make it clear that too many of the principles people tout in going 3rd party are individual and not gospel. As long as people realize that then they can do as they like. The gospel does not forbid a vote for damage control or the lesser of 2 evils if you will. We vote for the choices we have, not those we wish we had. In a way it is like life. We take what comes.
I don't like Clinton, I loathe her, let's get that straight.

If you want to vote for the lesser of two evils, then go ahead, but please stop pressuring others into doing something they feel is morally wrong. If you choose to vote for someone you know is unprincipled, immoral, duplicitive, that's your right. I respect Mark Levin for his decision to vote for Trump--he's doing it solely because he fears a Clinton presidency more than a Trump one. I respect Glenn Beck for his decision not to, he fears a Trump presidency as much as a Clinton one.

JJ3
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by JJ3 »

What amazes me far more than people throwing their vote away, which is their right to do, is the undertone of anger present in this discussion. How dare you think different than I; how dare you not see my point; how dare you...fill in the blank. Have we strayed so far from the spirit as to find it necessary to harbor such ill will over politics? No matter who wins, politics is never worth the divisions it causes.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by iWriteStuff »

JJ3 wrote:What amazes me far more than people throwing their vote away, which is their right to do, is the undertone of anger present in this discussion. How dare you think different than I; how dare you not see my point; how dare you...fill in the blank. Have we strayed so far from the spirit as to find it necessary to harbor such ill will over politics? No matter who wins, politics is never worth the divisions it causes.
You started a thread on the ignorance of voting based on principles when the direction of the 1st Presidency is to "seek candidates who best embody (gospel) principles", you say all such voters are "throwing away their votes", and then accuse all who disagree of stirring up contention.

Wow. #-o

JJ3
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by JJ3 »

iWriteStuff wrote:
JJ3 wrote:What amazes me far more than people throwing their vote away, which is their right to do, is the undertone of anger present in this discussion. How dare you think different than I; how dare you not see my point; how dare you...fill in the blank. Have we strayed so far from the spirit as to find it necessary to harbor such ill will over politics? No matter who wins, politics is never worth the divisions it causes.
You started a thread on the ignorance of voting based on principles when the direction of the 1st Presidency is to "seek candidates who best embody (gospel) principles", you say all such voters are "throwing away their votes", and then accuse all who disagree of stirring up contention.

Wow. #-o
Do you embody those gospel principles?

ebenezerarise
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by ebenezerarise »

FTC wrote:
ebenezerarise wrote:Voting so that you can be on the side who wins is about the dumbest idea I've ever heard. But voting against principle because you see a better future driven by a lower-class of evil is equally insane. Why would you ever have to abandon your principles? To do so is to admit you never had them in the first place.
The principle is getting the least worst possible leader into office. If the least worst happens to be the best - great!! With this current election, getting the best is not attainable. The only thing possibly attainable is the best of the worst.
worst candidate has 48% of the vote. least worst candidate has 44% of the vote. 8% of the people vote for the best candidate on principle, and GUARANTEE that the whole country is subjected to the rule of the worst leader for the next 4 to 8 years.
Your voting on principle will be the reason that the country has to suffer with the worst leader available.
You're exactly the reason we're in the state we're in. I will not be party to it. My principles or death.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by iWriteStuff »

JJ3 wrote:
iWriteStuff wrote:
JJ3 wrote:What amazes me far more than people throwing their vote away, which is their right to do, is the undertone of anger present in this discussion. How dare you think different than I; how dare you not see my point; how dare you...fill in the blank. Have we strayed so far from the spirit as to find it necessary to harbor such ill will over politics? No matter who wins, politics is never worth the divisions it causes.
You started a thread on the ignorance of voting based on principles when the direction of the 1st Presidency is to "seek candidates who best embody (gospel) principles", you say all such voters are "throwing away their votes", and then accuse all who disagree of stirring up contention.

Wow. #-o
Do you embody those gospel principles?
Nice try - attempting to make the discussion about me instead of the topic you presented.
adhominem.jpg
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Points for trying, though. :ymapplause:

JJ3
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by JJ3 »

iWriteStuff wrote:
JJ3 wrote:
iWriteStuff wrote:
JJ3 wrote:What amazes me far more than people throwing their vote away, which is their right to do, is the undertone of anger present in this discussion. How dare you think different than I; how dare you not see my point; how dare you...fill in the blank. Have we strayed so far from the spirit as to find it necessary to harbor such ill will over politics? No matter who wins, politics is never worth the divisions it causes.
You started a thread on the ignorance of voting based on principles when the direction of the 1st Presidency is to "seek candidates who best embody (gospel) principles", you say all such voters are "throwing away their votes", and then accuse all who disagree of stirring up contention.

Wow. #-o
Do you embody those gospel principles?
Nice try - attempting to make the discussion about me instead of the topic you presented.

adhominem.jpg

Points for trying, though. :ymapplause:
That was a rhetorical question. Answer it to yourself. I am not your judge.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by iWriteStuff »

JJ3 wrote:
iWriteStuff wrote:
JJ3 wrote:
iWriteStuff wrote:
You started a thread on the ignorance of voting based on principles when the direction of the 1st Presidency is to "seek candidates who best embody (gospel) principles", you say all such voters are "throwing away their votes", and then accuse all who disagree of stirring up contention.

Wow. #-o
Do you embody those gospel principles?
Nice try - attempting to make the discussion about me instead of the topic you presented.

adhominem.jpg

Points for trying, though. :ymapplause:
That was a rhetorical question. Answer it to yourself. I am not your judge.
Double ad hominem - points reversed on technicality.

From what I gather, you have nothing to support your vote for Trump other than "Hillary is worse". If that's the way you think and you truly see no other purpose in voting, then truly democracy is lost.

larsenb
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by larsenb »

Silver wrote:
larsenb wrote:And I'm switching to voting Republican for the very principled purpose and reason of trying to save the country. Hillary, if elected, will almost certainly administer the coup de grace to our country. I simply don't see Trump doing anything remotely like this. And hopefully, quite the opposite.
OK, I'll do it. I'll be the bearer of bad news. We thank you for your principled 3rd party votes in the past. You were quite courageous in trying to convince others to join you. But as for saving the country, you're too late. Or rather, I should say that it's too late. We are too wicked. God's blessings are being withdrawn. Assets are becoming slippery. We're in the final tailspin and even a Trump presidency will not save the country. You and all others should prepare for that eventuality and, one last time, to stick it in the eye of the Dems and Reps and the Luciferians who control them, vote 3rd party. That's what I'm doing.
OK. I forgot the category of people such as yourself: Those who think it's all over already, so what difference does it make. A dark outlook, indeed.

However, i don't think we are quite there yet. The globalist straitjacket isn't fully in place. Most of us have a sense that our freedoms are somewhat in tact . . . . at least those of us who haven't yet run up against the naked power of the state.

As for saying: "we are too wicked", I try to avoid such black-and-white generalities. I see a lot of good people out there, in my daily walk and observation. I'll leave such judgments to the One who is in a position of authority to make them.

And you miss-characterize my position if you think I believe Trump will "save" the country, having ignored my qualifier about the hope that Trump might at least be able to slow down its absolute dissolution significantly. This is a hope I have, which is rationally based on many of his positions, being the FIRST well-known candidate to actually identify the problem of political 'globalism', for instance.

This is a biggie in my world view. I'm continually amazed at how many here on this forum seem to miss this or don't understand its significance. Oh well.

JJ3
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by JJ3 »

iWriteStuff wrote:
JJ3 wrote:
iWriteStuff wrote:
JJ3 wrote: Do you embody those gospel principles?
Nice try - attempting to make the discussion about me instead of the topic you presented.

adhominem.jpg

Points for trying, though. :ymapplause:
That was a rhetorical question. Answer it to yourself. I am not your judge.
Double ad hominem - points reversed on technicality.

From what I gather, you have nothing to support your vote for Trump other than "Hillary is worse". If that's the way you think and you truly see no other purpose in voting, then truly democracy is lost.
Fortunately, you are not my judge either. Save your arrogance.

larsenb
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by larsenb »

iWriteStuff wrote:
JJ3 wrote:
iWriteStuff wrote:
JJ3 wrote: Do you embody those gospel principles?
Nice try - attempting to make the discussion about me instead of the topic you presented.

adhominem.jpg

Points for trying, though. :ymapplause:
That was a rhetorical question. Answer it to yourself. I am not your judge.
Double ad hominem - points reversed on technicality.

From what I gather, you have nothing to support your vote for Trump other than "Hillary is worse". If that's the way you think and you truly see no other purpose in voting, then truly democracy is lost.
My view is that "truly democracy is lost" if most people don't see how much worse Hillary is or would be than Trump. Or don't quite understand that letting Hillary in will physically bring down or hasten the end of any semblance of a country left to us.

People with this view, logically see that letting Hillary in (voting directly for her, or, if they normally vote Republican, voting 3rd party) will have this result. In this context then, voting for Trump is an extremely principled position to take.

It boils down to actually preventing the total destruction of the Republic, vs. being merely satisfied with a squeaky clean, politically pristine candidate who has less than a snowflakes chance in hell of winning.

larsenb
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by larsenb »

AI2.0 wrote: . . . Absolutely. Where was larsenb and the others who stood on principle, abstaining or voting 3rd party for the last decade???? We didn't get in this mess in just the last four years, it's been developing over several presidencies. Frankly, some of us believed that our last hope to turn things around was 2012 and we voted for Romney to stop Obama from continuing his 'fundamental transformation' of our country, but they refused to recognize the threat Obama was--even after his first disastrous four years of running the country into the ground. In 2012, many stayed home or they voted with the Ron Paul revolution. Now, I suspect that many of those people are now supporting Trump and suddenly, standing on principle is wrong. What a double standard.

So for those of you who sat out earlier elections or voted 3rd party, who NOW think we need to 'save the country' from Horrible Hillary, where were YOU in 2012? If Romney had won in 2012, Clinton would have been diminished and maybe the media would have exposed her pay for play antics with her 'foundation'--she'd never have been secretary of state and done all the damage there... events would have changed and she might not have even been in the running this election cycle...
I started out the century being a Republican State and County delegate, etc. My position on Presidential candidates almost from the git-go was based on their understanding, or lack there-of, of the illegal wars we were getting into, or their understanding, or lack there of, of the false narrative of 9/11. What an eye opener that experience was.

That is precisely why I started voting 3rd Party, with the hope that enough people would join me and others and with the express purpose of helping to save the country.

In 2012, I held my nose and voted for Romney; which I've subsequently seen as a big mistake, having seen no increase in the understanding of the man, relative to what is really going on.

Going for Trump this time around, is because for the first time in decades, I'm seeing someone who is actually identifying the major and many of the minor but serious problems we face as a country. He is for Nationalism vs. Globalism a la BREXIT with ALL that entails; he is pro-Life/anti-abortion; he is strongly committed to strengthening our Christian heritage, and recognizes how religious people, particularly Christians have been marginalized; he vows to abrogate the Johnson Amendment, which would greatly empower religious freedom; he understands the real dangers of further watering down our cultural underpinnings by even increasing the floodgates to illegal immigration and otherwise, specifically wanting to prevent further murderous atrocities by Islamic Jihadists in this country.

All extremely laudable, in my strongly held view.

The question is AI2.0, where were you during all this? I think we've already established that you and I have very different world-views.

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rewcox
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by rewcox »

larsenb wrote:
AI2.0 wrote: . . . Absolutely. Where was larsenb and the others who stood on principle, abstaining or voting 3rd party for the last decade???? We didn't get in this mess in just the last four years, it's been developing over several presidencies. Frankly, some of us believed that our last hope to turn things around was 2012 and we voted for Romney to stop Obama from continuing his 'fundamental transformation' of our country, but they refused to recognize the threat Obama was--even after his first disastrous four years of running the country into the ground. In 2012, many stayed home or they voted with the Ron Paul revolution. Now, I suspect that many of those people are now supporting Trump and suddenly, standing on principle is wrong. What a double standard.

So for those of you who sat out earlier elections or voted 3rd party, who NOW think we need to 'save the country' from Horrible Hillary, where were YOU in 2012? If Romney had won in 2012, Clinton would have been diminished and maybe the media would have exposed her pay for play antics with her 'foundation'--she'd never have been secretary of state and done all the damage there... events would have changed and she might not have even been in the running this election cycle...
I started out the century being a Republican State and County delegate, etc. My position on Presidential candidates almost from the git-go was based on their understanding, or lack there-of, of the illegal wars we were getting into, or their understanding, or lack there of, of the false narrative of 9/11. What an eye opener that experience was.

That is precisely why I started voting 3rd Party, with the hope that enough people would join me and others and with the express purpose of helping to save the country.

In 2012, I held my nose and voted for Romney; which I've subsequently seen as a big mistake, having seen no increase in the understanding of the man, relative to what is really going on.

Going for Trump this time around, is because for the first time in decades, I'm seeing someone who is actually identifying the major and many of the minor but serious problems we face as a country. He is for Nationalism vs. Globalism a la BREXIT with ALL that entails; he is pro-Life/anti-abortion; he is strongly committed to strengthening our Christian heritage, and recognizes how religious people, particularly Christians have been marginalized; he vows to abrogate the Johnson Amendment, which would greatly empower religious freedom; he understands the real dangers of further watering down our cultural underpinnings by even increasing the floodgates to illegal immigration and otherwise, specifically wanting to prevent further murderous atrocities by Islamic Jihadists in this country.

All extremely laudable, in my strongly held view.

The question is AI2.0, where were you during all this? I think we've already established that you and I have very different world-views.
Amazing, people having different opinions.

You and others were conned this time. The arrogance of Trump is too big to get around. Everything had to be about him. The opportunity is blown.

larsenb
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Posts: 10812
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Voting on principle

Post by larsenb »

rewcox wrote:
larsenb wrote:
AI2.0 wrote: . . . Absolutely. Where was larsenb and the others who stood on principle, abstaining or voting 3rd party for the last decade???? We didn't get in this mess in just the last four years, it's been developing over several presidencies. Frankly, some of us believed that our last hope to turn things around was 2012 and we voted for Romney to stop Obama from continuing his 'fundamental transformation' of our country, but they refused to recognize the threat Obama was--even after his first disastrous four years of running the country into the ground. In 2012, many stayed home or they voted with the Ron Paul revolution. Now, I suspect that many of those people are now supporting Trump and suddenly, standing on principle is wrong. What a double standard.

So for those of you who sat out earlier elections or voted 3rd party, who NOW think we need to 'save the country' from Horrible Hillary, where were YOU in 2012? If Romney had won in 2012, Clinton would have been diminished and maybe the media would have exposed her pay for play antics with her 'foundation'--she'd never have been secretary of state and done all the damage there... events would have changed and she might not have even been in the running this election cycle...
I started out the century being a Republican State and County delegate, etc. My position on Presidential candidates almost from the git-go was based on their understanding, or lack there-of, of the illegal wars we were getting into, or their understanding, or lack there of, of the false narrative of 9/11. What an eye opener that experience was.

That is precisely why I started voting 3rd Party, with the hope that enough people would join me and others and with the express purpose of helping to save the country.

In 2012, I held my nose and voted for Romney; which I've subsequently seen as a big mistake, having seen no increase in the understanding of the man, relative to what is really going on.

Going for Trump this time around, is because for the first time in decades, I'm seeing someone who is actually identifying the major and many of the minor but serious problems we face as a country. He is for Nationalism vs. Globalism a la BREXIT with ALL that entails; he is pro-Life/anti-abortion; he is strongly committed to strengthening our Christian heritage, and recognizes how religious people, particularly Christians have been marginalized; he vows to abrogate the Johnson Amendment, which would greatly empower religious freedom; he understands the real dangers of further watering down our cultural underpinnings by even increasing the floodgates to illegal immigration and otherwise, specifically wanting to prevent further murderous atrocities by Islamic Jihadists in this country.

All extremely laudable, in my strongly held view.

The question is AI2.0, where were you during all this? I think we've already established that you and I have very different world-views.
Amazing, people having different opinions.

You and others were conned this time. The arrogance of Trump is too big to get around. Everything had to be about him. The opportunity is blown.
Rewcox. How could you thinks otherwise, being at the very least a crypto supporter of Hillary by your own words. You're trapped by your judgemental, black-and-white model of the man. So be it. Which raises the question, who exactly has been conned?

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GrandMasterB
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Posts: 1125

Re: Voting on principle

Post by GrandMasterB »

larsenb wrote:
iWriteStuff wrote: . . . . I won't vote Trump because that says I'm ok with his candidacy. I'm not. It would be a positive affirmation that I stand with him. I don't. A vote is NOT a negative statement - you don't get to vote "No" for every candidate you don't like. You only get one "Yes". This is why I am putting my "Yes" behind someone I CAN support, CAN stand by, and DO positively endorse. How hard is that to understand?

Go on talking like the only way to vote "No" on Hillary is to vote for Trump. But it's shallow democracy and a horrible use of your constitutional rights. If you truly love Trump, then vote for him. But don't blow your chance to positively affirm your values by voting for someone you don't believe in.
Actually this is a very logical position for you to take if you see Hillary and Trump about on par, with both leading to the same types of disaster if elected.

One gets the impression that many who are touting a 3rd Party candidate for the first time after having voted Republican in previous elections, have this particular view. You actually come across this way in most of your posts on this issue.

However, those who abhor going from Republican to 3rd Party have a much, much darker view of a Hillary Presidency. I'm one of those. But I"m going in the opposite direction: coming from the position of having voted 3rd party in all but one election since about 2002, to voting Republican.

And I'm switching to voting Republican for the very principled purpose and reason of trying to save the country. Hillary, if elected, will almost certainly administer the coup de grace to our country. I simply don't see Trump doing anything remotely like this. And hopefully, quite the opposite.
Sounds like you don't know much about Donald Trump. The guy I have been following since day 1 has lied, slandered and bullied his way into the spotlight. This guy reeks of corruption in his past dealings with people both in business and personal. Trump says he will do these things but he clearly lacks the character for many to actually believe he will do the things he says. He keeps switching his positions on conservative issues. For abortion, then against, for minimum wage hike, then against, then for then against. For TPP then against TPP. For buying politicians then against buying politicians. For tearing up his promise to support the nominee then against it (after he won). How do you Trump supporters not see the deception? Seriously, I want to know.
Last edited by GrandMasterB on October 20th, 2016, 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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GrandMasterB
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Posts: 1125

Re: Voting on principle

Post by GrandMasterB »

larsenb wrote:
AI2.0 wrote: . . . Absolutely. Where was larsenb and the others who stood on principle, abstaining or voting 3rd party for the last decade???? We didn't get in this mess in just the last four years, it's been developing over several presidencies. Frankly, some of us believed that our last hope to turn things around was 2012 and we voted for Romney to stop Obama from continuing his 'fundamental transformation' of our country, but they refused to recognize the threat Obama was--even after his first disastrous four years of running the country into the ground. In 2012, many stayed home or they voted with the Ron Paul revolution. Now, I suspect that many of those people are now supporting Trump and suddenly, standing on principle is wrong. What a double standard.

So for those of you who sat out earlier elections or voted 3rd party, who NOW think we need to 'save the country' from Horrible Hillary, where were YOU in 2012? If Romney had won in 2012, Clinton would have been diminished and maybe the media would have exposed her pay for play antics with her 'foundation'--she'd never have been secretary of state and done all the damage there... events would have changed and she might not have even been in the running this election cycle...
I started out the century being a Republican State and County delegate, etc. My position on Presidential candidates almost from the git-go was based on their understanding, or lack there-of, of the illegal wars we were getting into, or their understanding, or lack there of, of the false narrative of 9/11. What an eye opener that experience was.

That is precisely why I started voting 3rd Party, with the hope that enough people would join me and others and with the express purpose of helping to save the country.

In 2012, I held my nose and voted for Romney; which I've subsequently seen as a big mistake, having seen no increase in the understanding of the man, relative to what is really going on.

Going for Trump this time around, is because for the first time in decades, I'm seeing someone who is actually identifying the major and many of the minor but serious problems we face as a country. He is for Nationalism vs. Globalism a la BREXIT with ALL that entails; he is pro-Life/anti-abortion; he is strongly committed to strengthening our Christian heritage, and recognizes how religious people, particularly Christians have been marginalized; he vows to abrogate the Johnson Amendment, which would greatly empower religious freedom; he understands the real dangers of further watering down our cultural underpinnings by even increasing the floodgates to illegal immigration and otherwise, specifically wanting to prevent further murderous atrocities by Islamic Jihadists in this country.

All extremely laudable, in my strongly held view.

The question is AI2.0, where were you during all this? I think we've already established that you and I have very different world-views.
The question I have for you larsenb is you do realize that Donald Trump had no idea of these issues before he began to run for president don't you? Show me in his past any statements that would show us these are his principles. There are many quotes of him stating the exact opposite before he began campaigning. Since a lot of his positions were the exact opposite and more liberal progressive before he began running wouldn't that be a red flag that the man may be making it all up?

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GrandMasterB
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Re: Voting on principle

Post by GrandMasterB »

Here are some wonderful quotes from Trump:
“When people wrong you, go after those people, because it is a good feeling and because other people will see you doing it. I always get even.”

“Sorry losers and haters, but my I.Q. is one of the highest -and you all know it! Please don’t feel so stupid or insecure, it’s not your fault.”

“Why do I have to repent, why do I have to ask for forgiveness if [I’m] not making mistakes?”

“I’m in total support of waterboarding. It has to be within the law, but I have to expand the law.”

“I fully think apologizing is a great thing. But you have to be WRONG ... I will absolutely apologize sometime in the hopefully distant future if I’m ever wrong.”

“I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters.”
“Part of the beauty of me is that I’m very rich.”

“When I go to church and when I drink my little wine and have my little cracker, I guess that is a form of forgiveness. I do that as often as I can because I feel cleansed.”

“I think I’m like the largest or one of the largest [political] contributors. I’m maxed out every year.”

“I love Oprah. Oprah would always be my first choice [for Vice President]”

“I think of myself as a young guy, but I’m not so young anymore. And I’ve been around for a long time. And it just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats than the Republicans.”

“I enjoy it, I enjoy the system. I doubt I’ll ever be involved with politics beyond what I do right now, but I do enjoy the system. I find it, a really, really beautiful thing to watch.”

“Hillary is smart, tough and a very nice person, and so is her husband. Bill Clinton was a great President. They are fine people. Hillary was roughed up by the media, and it was a tough campaign for her, but she’s a great trooper. Her history is far from being over.”

“How stupid are the people of Iowa?”

“I have tremendous respect for the Japanese people, I mean, you can respect somebody that’s beating the hell out of you.”

“I’ll shake hands. I shake hands with people. But it’s not something I like — look, I’m not a huge fan of Japan, but I love their custom.”

“The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive.”

“.@ariannahuff is unattractive both inside and out. I fully understand why her former husband left her for a man- he made a good decision.”

“There has to be some form of punishment” [for women who seek abortions]
“I would never buy Ivana any decent jewels or pictures. Why give her negotiable assets?”

“There are people — I categorize them as life’s losers — who get their sense of accomplishment and achievement from trying to stop others. As far as I’m concerned, if they had any real ability, they wouldn’t be fighting me, they’d be doing something constructive themselves.”

“My life has been about winning. My life has not been about losing.”

“She does have a very nice figure. I’ve said that if Ivanka weren’t my daughter, perhaps I’d be dating her.”

“I mean, I won’t do anything to take care of them. I’ll supply funds and she’ll take care of the kids. It’s not like I’m gonna be walking the kids down Central Park. Well, Marla used to say, ‘I can’t believe you’re not walking Tiffany down the street,’ you know, in a carriage. Right, I’m gonna be walking down Fifth Avenue with a baby in a carriage. It just didn’t work.”

“I don’t [change diapers]. It’s not my thing. You know what, I’m a good father but that’s not my thing and Melania’s going to be a great mother. To a large extent it’s up to the women. There are a lot of women out there who, you know, demand the husband act like the wife and there are a lot of husbands who listen to that.”

“My marriage, it seemed, was the only area of my life in which I was willing to accept something less than perfection.”

“If you have the money, having children is great.”

“Miley don’t let them get you down. They’re all jealous”

And there are many more that aren't appropriate for this site.

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