Voting on principle

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
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JJ3
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Voting on principle

Post by JJ3 »

I'm concerned that too often members of the church are afraid to vote for candidates with a realistic chance of winning because they feel the candidates are flawed. In an ideal world we can choose ideal candidates, but as is plainly obvious, we do not live in an ideal world. Perfection does not exist in politics and until the Savior comes again, will not. We are encouraged to participate in elections and to vote. Too often we make false assumptions without prayerfully involving God in the political decision making process. I encourage everyone to vote and in preparation for that voting to pray often and in earnest for guidance in how to vote. God is the only source that will never mislead a sincere person seeking his help. Media, politicians and even honest and good people will all fall short, so please humble yourselves and seek out God's guidance. Do not assume that principle means throwing away your vote on candidates with no serious chance of victory.
Last edited by JJ3 on October 19th, 2016, 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Matchmaker
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Re: Voting on principal

Post by Matchmaker »

Welcome. I see you are new. Thanks for coming on board. We can always use another level head.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Voting on principal

Post by Robin Hood »

In my view it is entirely legitimate to withhold your vote, or spoil the ballot paper, if you have a strong objection to the candidates.
I don't believe you should vote no matter what.
The UK general election in 2015 was the first time I had voted for a few years. This was because there was a candidate on the ballot paper that I was happy to support. Previous to that there hadn't been.

And previous to that I had voted for a small party who's candidate stood no chance of being elected, but who's policies I agreed with.
Voters demand integrity from the candidates, but should also demonstrate integrity in their choice; even if that means abstaining.

Silver
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Posts: 5247

Re: Voting on principal

Post by Silver »

If voting mattered, our Luciferian masters wouldn't let us do it. In the US, regardless of who controls the power of the purse or sits in the Oval Office, conditions get worse. Taxes, war, NSA eavesdropping, abortion, loss of God-given rights, theft through currency devaluation and so on.

I'm going to vote 3rd party because neither Rep or Dems represent me. I'm not looking for perfection as the OP describes it. I'm simply looking for individuals who haven't plotted to steal the birthright of my children and future grandchildren.

Insanity is...you all know this...continuing to vote for anyone in the Dem or Rep parties and expecting different results, especially at the national level.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Voting on principles

Post by iWriteStuff »

First of all, to chide members who are voting based on principles goes directly against the most recent advice of the 1st Presidency:
"Dear Brothers and Sisters:
As citizens we have the privilege and duty of electing office holders and influencing public policy. Participation in the political process affects our communities and nation today and in the future. We urge Latter-day Saints to be active citizens by registering, exercising their right to vote, and engaging in civic affairs.
We also urge you to spend the time needed to become informed about the issues and candidates you will be considering. Along with the options available to you through the Internet, debates, and other sources, the Church occasionally posts information about particular moral issues on which it has taken a position at http://www.MormonNewsroom.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in various political parties, and members should seek candidates who best embody those principles.
While the Church affirms its institutional neutrality regarding political parties and candidates, individual members should participate in the political process. The Church also affirms its constitutional right of expression on political and social issues.

Sincerely yours,

Thomas S. Monson
Henry B. Eyring
Dieter F. Uchtdorf
The First Presidency"
Moral issues
Compatible with the gospel
Candidates who embody those principles

Them's the guide posts of modern prophets. Here are some more:
We engage in the election the same as in any other principle: you are to vote for good men, and if you do not do this it is a sin: to vote for wicked men, it would be sin. Choose the good and refuse the evil. Men of false principles have preyed upon us like wolves upon helpless lambs. (Hyrum Smith, History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.15, p. 323.)
Or how about this fellow:
“...we shall have the satisfaction of knowing that we have acted conscientiously, and have used our best judgement. And if we have to throw away our votes, we had better do so upon a worthy rather than an unworthy individual who might make use of the weapon we put in his hand to destroy us.” (Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Nauvoo, IV, 441. Cited also in Roberts, Comprehensive History, II, 208-209.)
The evidence is compellingly in favor of voting your principles.

Rather, show me one place in all scripture or the revealed word where it says only vote for someone if you think they'd win. Try it and let me see what you come up with.

Fiannan
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Posts: 12983

Re: Voting on principal

Post by Fiannan »

Hitler was loyal to Eva, FDR cheated on Ellinor. Yeah, let's vote principles.

Fiannan
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Posts: 12983

Re: Voting on principal

Post by Fiannan »

My faith in Mormons being smart is only preserved when friends I have from Utah post articles daily promoting Trump.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Voting on principles

Post by iWriteStuff »

Fiannan wrote:My faith in Mormons being smart is only preserved when friends I have from Utah post articles daily promoting Trump.
Ah, so Mormons are only smart when they agree with you. Good to know! :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

Ezra
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Re: Voting on principal

Post by Ezra »

Fiannan wrote:Hitler was loyal to Eva, FDR cheated on Ellinor. Yeah, let's vote principles.
Sure if you look at one little part of what they stand for then you can deduct that. If you look at the person as a whole Hitler and fdr are both not good. History can prove both are currpt

Ezra
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Re: Voting on principal

Post by Ezra »

JJ3 wrote:I'm concerned that too often members of the church are afraid to vote for candidates with a realistic chance of winning because they feel the candidates are flawed. In an ideal world we can choose ideal candidates, but as is plainly obvious, we do not live in an ideal world. Perfection does not exist in politics and until the Savior comes again, will not. We are encouraged to participate in elections and to vote. Too often we make false assumptions without prayerfully involving God in the political decision making process. I encourage everyone to vote and in preparation for that voting to pray often and in earnest for guidance in how to vote. God is the only source that will never mislead a sincere person seeking his help. Media, politicians and even honest and good people will all fall short, so please humble yourselves and seek out God's guidance. Do not assume that principal means throwing away your vote on candidates with no serious chance of victory.
Joseph Smith Jr.: "We shall have the satisfaction of knowing we have acted conscienciously and have used our best judgement, and if we have to throw away our votes, we had better do so upon a worthy rather than an unworthy individual who might make use of the weapon we put in his hand to destroy us!" (Comprehensive History of the Church 2:208-209)

Silver
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Posts: 5247

Re: Voting on principal

Post by Silver »

Fiannan wrote:Hitler was loyal to Eva, FDR cheated on Ellinor. Yeah, let's vote principles.
I want to ask you a serious question: Do you really think the use of sarcasm or ad hominem will persuade your fellow LDSFF members to agree with you?

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Robin Hood
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Re: Voting on principal

Post by Robin Hood »

Fiannan wrote:Hitler was loyal to Eva, FDR cheated on Ellinor. Yeah, let's vote principles.
Poor example.
Hitler was not married to Eva (except for a few hours before they killed themselves). Also, it appears that he wasn't loyal to her either as he likely cheated on her with Winifred Wagner.
But I think "principles" extends beyond sexual behaviour, though it certainly does include it.
Last edited by Robin Hood on October 19th, 2016, 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Voting on principles

Post by iWriteStuff »

Silver wrote:
Fiannan wrote:Hitler was loyal to Eva, FDR cheated on Ellinor. Yeah, let's vote principles.
I want to ask you a serious question: Do you really think the use of sarcasm or ad hominem will persuade your fellow LDSFF members to agree with you?
He already told you the purpose - to make himself feel smarter than Mormons.

Silver
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Posts: 5247

Re: Voting on principal

Post by Silver »

Robin Hood wrote:In my view it is entirely legitimate to withhold your vote, or spoil the ballot paper, if you have a strong objection to the candidates.
I don't believe you should vote no matter what.
The UK general election in 2015 was the first time I had voted for a few years. This was because there was a candidate on the ballot paper that I was happy to support. Previous to that there hadn't been.

And previous to that I had voted for a small party who's candidate stood no chance of being elected, but who's policies I agreed with.
Voters demand integrity from the candidates, but should also demonstrate integrity in their choice; even if that means abstaining.
RH, I really like this expression "spoil the ballot paper". I've never heard it used by a fellow Yank. Do the voting booths in the UK not use touchscreen panels? Our elections are now determined by Mr. Diebold and not by a majority of Americans.

There are also wicked men who conspire to remove the power of our political franchise. Wicked men like Robert Creamer and the POTUS who meets with him:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-18/robert-creamer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Silver on October 19th, 2016, 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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markharr
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Re: Voting on principles

Post by markharr »

iWriteStuff wrote:First of all, to chide members who are voting based on principles goes directly against the most recent advice of the 1st Presidency:
"Dear Brothers and Sisters:
As citizens we have the privilege and duty of electing office holders and influencing public policy. Participation in the political process affects our communities and nation today and in the future. We urge Latter-day Saints to be active citizens by registering, exercising their right to vote, and engaging in civic affairs.
We also urge you to spend the time needed to become informed about the issues and candidates you will be considering. Along with the options available to you through the Internet, debates, and other sources, the Church occasionally posts information about particular moral issues on which it has taken a position at http://www.MormonNewsroom.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in various political parties, and members should seek candidates who best embody those principles.
While the Church affirms its institutional neutrality regarding political parties and candidates, individual members should participate in the political process. The Church also affirms its constitutional right of expression on political and social issues.

Sincerely yours,

Thomas S. Monson
Henry B. Eyring
Dieter F. Uchtdorf
The First Presidency"
Moral issues
Compatible with the gospel
Candidates who embody those principles

Them's the guide posts of modern prophets. Here are some more:
We engage in the election the same as in any other principle: you are to vote for good men, and if you do not do this it is a sin: to vote for wicked men, it would be sin. Choose the good and refuse the evil. Men of false principles have preyed upon us like wolves upon helpless lambs. (Hyrum Smith, History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.15, p. 323.)
Or how about this fellow:
“...we shall have the satisfaction of knowing that we have acted conscientiously, and have used our best judgement. And if we have to throw away our votes, we had better do so upon a worthy rather than an unworthy individual who might make use of the weapon we put in his hand to destroy us.” (Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Nauvoo, IV, 441. Cited also in Roberts, Comprehensive History, II, 208-209.)
The evidence is compellingly in favor of voting your principles.

Rather, show me one place in all scripture or the revealed word where it says only vote for someone if you think they'd win. Try it and let me see what you come up with.
Joseph Smith is quite possibly the only candidate in American History who met all of these criteria. Which may be why you are struggling to find a candidate.

With that being said, I applaud you for sticking to your principles. Nothing wrong with that.

JJ3
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Posts: 20

Re: Voting on principle

Post by JJ3 »

Too often I believe people confuse pride with principle. They are ashamed and guilted into a belief that they cannot vote for the candidate best for the nation's future, because they fear association with that candidates past sins. When the Savior was on earth his principals permitted him to associate with sinners and the gospel principles are not so limiting as many of its members principles have become. Satan will deceive even the elect and to do that he uses tactics they often do not even see. Vote how you will, but if you do so on principles that are purely your own without humility do not be surprised if matters only get worse.
Last edited by JJ3 on October 19th, 2016, 10:14 am, edited 4 times in total.

Fiannan
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Posts: 12983

Re: Voting on principal

Post by Fiannan »

Joseph Smith is quite possibly the only candidate in American History who met all of these criteria. Which may be why you are struggling to find a candidate.
Oh just think if the internet had existed then and the memes of Joseph hugging his young, teenage wife with Emma watching on.

Silver
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Posts: 5247

Re: Voting on principal

Post by Silver »

Speaking of principles, or the lack thereof, did you know Dilbert's voice (Scott Adams) is being stifled?

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/1519810220 ... banning-me" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Adams' journey of merely explaining why he thought Trump would win the election to outright endorsing Trump (because he sees how bad Clinton is) has been interesting to watch. Of course, I don't agree with his endorsement of Trump, but why should he be attacked for supporting any candidate? I think there are going to be a lot of unhappy people no matter which of the two CFR-chosen candidates win, However, if Clinton loses I expect there to be some serious riots. Like stay home from work riots. Like martial law declarations in blue state riots. But Clinton will only lose if our Luciferian masters see some overall benefit in her defeat. Like mass contention among Americans (hmmm, makes me wonder who their father is) benefits. Like we need to beef up the Patriot Act benefits...it's for the children.

Fiannan
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Posts: 12983

Re: Voting on principles

Post by Fiannan »

iWriteStuff wrote:
Silver wrote:
Fiannan wrote:Hitler was loyal to Eva, FDR cheated on Ellinor. Yeah, let's vote principles.
I want to ask you a serious question: Do you really think the use of sarcasm or ad hominem will persuade your fellow LDSFF members to agree with you?
He already told you the purpose - to make himself feel smarter than Mormons.
No, I noted that I have plenty of smart Utah Mormon friends who are hard-core Trump backers.

Maybe I should have used the word "naive" though. And when you mix nativity and moral superiority together you have a dangerous combination.

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rewcox
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Re: Voting on principal

Post by rewcox »

Trump lies over 52% of the time. Hillary 12%.

I don't understand why anyone would consider voting for Trump.

JJ3
captain of 10
Posts: 20

Re: Voting on principle

Post by JJ3 »

rewcox wrote:Trump lies over 52% of the time. Hillary 12%.

I don't understand why anyone would consider voting for Trump.
And you get this statistic where?
Last edited by JJ3 on October 19th, 2016, 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Robin Hood
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Location: England

Re: Voting on principal

Post by Robin Hood »

Silver wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:In my view it is entirely legitimate to withhold your vote, or spoil the ballot paper, if you have a strong objection to the candidates.
I don't believe you should vote no matter what.
The UK general election in 2015 was the first time I had voted for a few years. This was because there was a candidate on the ballot paper that I was happy to support. Previous to that there hadn't been.

And previous to that I had voted for a small party who's candidate stood no chance of being elected, but who's policies I agreed with.
Voters demand integrity from the candidates, but should also demonstrate integrity in their choice; even if that means abstaining.
RH, I really like this expression "spoil the ballot paper". I've never heard it used by a fellow Yank. Do the voting booths in the UK not use touchscreen panels? Our elections are now determined by Mr. Diebold and not by a majority of Americans.

There are also wicked mean who conspire to remove the power of our political franchise. Wicked men like Robert Creamer and the POTUS who meets with him:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-18/robert-creamer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the UK we are given a ballot paper at the polling station. We place an "X" next to the name of our candidate of choice, and then place the ballot paper through the slot in the sealed ballot box.
Sometimes the old ways work just fine.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Voting on principles

Post by iWriteStuff »

Fiannan wrote:
iWriteStuff wrote:
Silver wrote:
Fiannan wrote:Hitler was loyal to Eva, FDR cheated on Ellinor. Yeah, let's vote principles.
I want to ask you a serious question: Do you really think the use of sarcasm or ad hominem will persuade your fellow LDSFF members to agree with you?
He already told you the purpose - to make himself feel smarter than Mormons.
No, I noted that I have plenty of smart Utah Mormon friends who are hard-core Trump backers.
Right - the other side of that argument is that the Utah Mormon friends who are not hard-core Trump backers are not smart. Ergo,
My faith in Mormons being smart is only preserved when friends I have from Utah post articles daily promoting Trump.
Sounds a heckuva lot like your mentor:
trump so smart.png
trump so smart.png (9.21 KiB) Viewed 1853 times

Silver
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Posts: 5247

Re: Voting on principal

Post by Silver »

Fiannan wrote:
Joseph Smith is quite possibly the only candidate in American History who met all of these criteria. Which may be why you are struggling to find a candidate.
Oh just think if the internet had existed then and the memes of Joseph hugging his young, teenage wife with Emma watching on.
Yawn.

I speak Japanese. It's one of the blessings of having served a mission for the Church. Those 2 years of service have continued to be a blessing to me nearly 40 years later. In fact, I'm in Japan right now on a business trip. I work for a Japanese corporation. People actually pay me to go to Japan and eat sushi. Imagine that.

Well, because I'm pretty good at Japanese, I've served as an interpreter in some legal cases. I did a deposition where a Japanese businessman was the defendant in a civil case. The opposing attorney kept trying to make a point by repeating a set of questions at various intervals throughout the deposition. And every time he did, the defendant's attorney would shout, "Asked and answered!" In other words, the opposition got their answer once and had no right to try to trick the defendant into saying something different by asking again.

Joseph's teen-aged wife thingy. Asked and answered. You may not care for the answer but it's there. I wish you success in finding happiness, both here and in the eternities.

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markharr
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Re: Voting on principal

Post by markharr »

JJ3 wrote:
rewcox wrote:Trump lies over 52% of the time. Hillary 12%.

I don't understand why anyone would consider voting for Trump.
And you get this statistic where?

He got it from PolitiFact. Where they conveniently leave out Hillary lies, and post every supposed lie that Trump ever said.

Sorry Rewcox. They only way someone could prove a statement like that is by analyzing every single statement ever made by the candidates for truth. We know you aren't doing that so your statistic is irrelevant.

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