No true Latter-day Saint and no true American can be a socialist or a communist

[kirtland r.m.]

The American Heritage of Freedom—A Plan of God
Elder Ezra Taft Benson
Of the Council of the Twelve Apostles

Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1961, pp. 69-75

My brethren and sisters and friends, in keeping with the spirit of the keynote address of our beloved President, I desire, if the Lord will bless me, to speak to you about the American heritage of freedom—a plan of God.

I direct my remarks particularly to the men of America and more especially to those in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who hold the Holy Priesthood of God.

Every member of the priesthood should understand the divine plan designed by the Lord to raise up the first free people in modern times. Here is how scripture says it was achieved:

First: Prophecy is abundant that God deliberately kept the American continent hidden until after the Holy Roman Empire had been broken up and the various nations had established themselves as independent kingdoms. Keeping America hidden until this time was no accident (2 Ne. 1:6,8).

Second: At the proper time, God inspired Columbus to overcome almost insurmountable odds to discover America and bring this rich new land to the attention of the gentiles in Europe (1 Ne. 13:12; Admiral of the Ocean Sea, by Dr. Samuel Eliot Morison, pp. 46-47).

Third: God revealed to his ancient American prophets that shortly after the discovery of America there would be peoples in Europe who would desire to escape the persecution and tyranny of the Old World and flee to America (1 Ne. 13:13-16).

Fourth: God told his prophets that the kingdoms in Europe would try to exercise dominion over the people who had fled to America, but that in the wars for independence the American settlers would win. (This is a remarkable prophecy in that 2,300 years before the Revolutionary War was fought, God through his prophets predicted who would win it) (1 Ne. 13:16-19).

Fifth: The prophets were told that in the latter days when the gentiles came to America they would establish it as a land of liberty on which there would be no kings. The Lord declared that he would protect the land and whosoever would try to establish kings either from within or without would perish (2 Ne. 10:8-14).

Sixth: Having declared America to be a land of liberty, God undertook to raise up a band of inspired and intelligent leaders who could write a constitution of liberty and establish the first free people in modern times. The hand of God in this undertaking is clearly indicated by the Lord himself in a revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith in these words

". . . I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose" (D&C 101:80).

Seventh: God declared that the United States Constitution was divinely inspired for the specific purpose of eliminating bondage and the violation of the rights and protection which belongs to "all flesh" (D&C 101:77-80).

Eighth: God placed a mandate upon his people to befriend and defend the constitutional laws of the land and see that the rights and privileges of all mankind are protected. He verified the declaration of the founding fathers, that God created all men free. He also warned against those who would enact laws encroaching upon the sacred rights and privileges of free men. He urged the election of honest and wise leaders and said that evil men and laws were of Satan (D&C 98:5-10).

Ninth: God predicted through his prophets that this great gentile nation, raised up on the American continent in the last days, would become the richest and most powerful nation on the face of the earth; even "above all other nations" (see (1 Ne. 13:15,30; Ether 2:12).

Tenth: Concerning the United States, the Lord revealed to his prophets that its greatest threat would be a vast, worldwide "secret combination" which would not only threaten the United States but also seek to "overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries" (Ether 8:25).

Eleventh: In connection with attack on the United States, the Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time "this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction." (Journal History, Brigham Young's Speech, July 4, 1854.)

It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation, will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.

Twelfth: The Lord revealed to the Prophet Nephi that he established the gentiles on this land to be a free people forever, that if they were a righteous nation and overcame the wickedness and secret abominations which would arise in their midst, they would inherit the land forever (1 Ne. 14:1-2).

Thirteenth: But on the other hand, if the gentiles on this land reject the word of God and conspire to overthrow liberty and the Constitution, then their doom is fixed, and they ". . . shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant" (1 Ne. 14:6; 3 Ne. 21:11,14,21; D&C 84:114-115,117).

Fourteenth: The great destructive force which was to be turned loose on the earth and which the prophets for centuries have been calling the "abomination of desolation" (Matt. 24:15) is vividly described by those who saw it in vision. Ours is the first generation to realize how literally these prophecies can be fulfilled now that God, through science, has unlocked the secret to thermonuclear reaction.

In the light of these prophecies there should be no doubt in the mind of any priesthood holder that the human family is headed for trouble. There are rugged days ahead. It is time for every man who wishes to do his duty to get himself prepared—physically, spiritually, and psychologically—for the task which may come at any time, as suddenly as the whirlwind.

Where do we stand today? All over the world the light of freedom is being diminished. Across whole continents of the earth freedom is being totally obliterated.

Never in recorded history has any movement spread its power so far and so fast as has socialistic-communism in the last three decades. The facts are not pleasant to review. Communist leaders are jubilant with their success. They are driving freedom back on almost every front.

It is time, therefore, that every American, and especially every member of the priesthood, became informed about the aims, tactics, and schemes of socialistic-communism. This becomes particularly important when it is realized that communism is turning out to be the earthly image of the plan which Satan presented in the pre-existence. The whole program of socialistic-communism is essentially a war against God and the plan of salvation—the very plan which we fought to uphold during "the war in heaven" (Rev. 12:7).

Up to now some members of the Church have stood aloof, feeling that the fight against socialistic-communism is "controversial" and unrelated to the mission of the Church or the work of the Lord. But the President of the Church in our day has made it clear that the fight against atheistic communism is a major challenge to the Church and every member in it.

During the general conference of the Church in October 1959, President David O. McKay, in discussing the threat of communism, referred to W. Cleon Skousen's book, The Naked Communist, and said, "I admonish everybody to read that excellent book." He then quoted the following from the flyleaf: "The conflict between communism and freedom is the problem of our time. It overshadows all other problems."

The fight against godless communism is a very real part of every man's duty who holds the priesthood. It is the fight against slavery, immorality, atheism, terrorism, cruelty, barbarism, deceit, and the destruction of human life through a kind of tyranny unsurpassed by anything in human history. Here is a struggle against the evil, satanical priestcraft of Lucifer. Truly it can be called, "a continuation of the war in heaven."

In the war in heaven the devil advocated absolute eternal security at the sacrifice of our freedom. Although there is nothing more desirable to a Latter-day Saint than eternal security in God's presence, and although God knew, as did we, that some of us would not achieve this security if we were allowed our freedom—yet the very God of heaven, who has more mercy than us all, still decreed no guaranteed security except by a man's own freedom of choice and individual initiative.

Today the devil as a wolf in a supposedly new suit of sheep's clothing is enticing some men, both in and out of the Church, to parrot his line by advocating planned government guaranteed security programs at the expense of our liberties. Latter-day Saints should be reminded how and why they voted as they did in heaven. If some have decided to change their vote they should repent—throw their support on the side of freedom—and cease promoting this subversion.

When all of the trappings of propaganda and pretense have been pulled aside, the exposed hard-core structure of modern communism is amazingly similar to the ancient Book of Mormon record of secret societies such as the Gadiantons. In the ancient American civilization there was no word which struck greater terror to the hearts of the people than the name of the Gadiantons. It was a secret political party which operated as a murder cult. Its object was to infiltrate legitimate government, plant its officers in high places, and then seize power and live off the spoils appropriated from the people. (It would start out as a small group of "dissenters" and by using secret oaths with the threat of death for defectors (Hel. 11:25-26) it would gradually gain a choke hold on the political and economic life of whole civilizations.)

The object of the Gadiantons, like modern communists, was to destroy the existing government and set up a ruthless criminal dictatorship over the whole land.

One of the most urgent, heart-stirring appeals made by Moroni as he closed the Book of Mormon was addressed to the gentile nations of the last days. He foresaw the rise of a great worldwide secret combination among the gentiles which " . . . seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries" (Ether 8:25, italics added). He warned each gentile nation of the last days to purge itself of this gigantic criminal conspiracy which would seek to rule the world.

The prophets, in our day, have continually warned us of these internal threats in our midst—that our greatest threat from socialistic-communism lies within our country. Brethren and sisters, we don't need a prophet—we have one—we need a listening ear. And if we do not listen and heed, then, as the Doctrine and Covenants states, " . . . the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people" (D&C 1:14).

The prophets have said that these threats are among us. The Prophet Moroni, viewing our day, said, "Wherefore the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation" (Ether 8:24).

Unfortunately our nation has not treated the socialistic-communist conspiracy as "treasonable to our free institutions," as the First Presidency pointed out in a signed 1936 statement. If we continue to uphold communism by not making it treasonable, our land shall be destroyed, for the Lord has said that ". . . whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold they shall be destroyed" (Ether 8:22).

The Prophet Moroni described how the secret combination would take over a country and then fight the work of God, persecute the righteous, and murder those who resisted. Moroni therefore proceeded to describe the workings of the ancient "secret combinations" so that modern man could recognize this great political conspiracy in the last days: "Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you,

"Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you . . .

"For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies" (Ether 8:23-25, italics added).

The Prophet Moroni seemed greatly exercised lest in our day we might not be able to recognize the startling fact that the same secret societies which destroyed the Jaredites and decimated numerous kingdoms of both Nephites and Lamanites would be precisely the same form of criminal conspiracy which would rise up among the gentile nations in this day.

The stratagems of the leaders of these societies are amazingly familiar to anyone who has studied the tactics of modern communist leaders.

The Lord has declared that before the second coming of Christ it will be necessary to ". . . destroy the secret works of darkness . . ." in order to preserve the land of Zion—the Americas (2 Ne. 10:11-16).

The world-wide secret conspiracy which has risen up in our day to fulfill these prophecies is easily identified. President McKay has left no room for doubt as to what attitude Latter-day Saints should take toward the modern "secret combinations" of conspiratorial communism. In a lengthy statement on communism, he said:

". . . Latter-day Saints should have nothing to do with the secret combinations and groups antagonistic to the constitutional law of the land, which the Lord 'suffered to be established,' and which 'should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh according to just and holy principles (D&C 101:77)'" (Gospel Ideals, by David O. McKay p. 306. Italics added).

There are those who recommend that the clash between communism and freedom be avoided through disarmament agreements. Abolishing our military strength and adopting an unenforceable contract as a substitute to protect us would go down in history as the greatest mistake free men could make in a time of peril.

President McKay declared:

"Force rules in the world today, consequently, our government must keep armies abroad, build navies and air squadrons, create atom bombs to protect itself from the threatened aggression of a nation which seems to listen to no other appeal than compulsion." (Ibid., p. 304.)

This parallels the historic statement by George Washington when he vigorously warned:

"There is a rank due the United States among the nations that will be totally lost by the reputation of weakness. If we would avoid insult we must be able to repel it, if we would secure the peace, it must be known that we are at all times ready for war."

Some timid, vacillating political leaders proclaim that communism is something we will have to learn to live with . . . whether it is Khrushchev, or some other leader. The present communist system, they declare, will continue because there is no alternate system to replace communism. The policy of increasing power, of pushing their system outward and using the communist party, they say, will go on.

Such a negative attitude writes off the hundreds of millions behind the iron curtain as a lost cause. Surely no courageous, liberty-loving citizen will treat the communist secret combination as "something we will have to learn to live with."

There is a more courageous and sounder point of view. President McKay expressed it in these words:

"Men will be free. I have hoped for twenty years that the Russian system would break up. There is no freedom under it, and sooner or later the people will rise against it. They cannot oppose those fundamentals of civilization and of God. They can't crush their people always. Men will be free." (Church Section, Deseret News, November 6, 1957, in an article entitled, "President McKay receives Senator Kennedy at Church Offices.")

What is the official position of the Church on communism? In 1936 the First Presidency made an official declaration on communism which has never been abrogated. I quote the concluding paragraph:

"We call upon all Church members completely to eschew communism. The safety of our divinely inspired constitutional government and the welfare of our Church imperatively demand that communism shall have no place in America"

We must ever keep in mind that collectivized socialism is part of the communist strategy. Communism is fundamentally socialism. We will never win our fight against communism by making concessions to socialism. Communism and socialism, closely related, must be defeated on principle. The close relationship between socialism and communism is clearly pointed out by Senator Strom Thurmond of South Carolina in a letter to the editor of the Washington Post, of August 6, 1961, in these words:

". . . Both socialism and communism derive from the teachings of Marx and Engels. In fact, the movements were one until the split over methods of approach, which resulted after the Russian revolution in 1905 . . . The aim and purpose of both was then and is now world socialism, which communism seeks to achieve through revolution and which socialists seek to achieve through evolution.

"The industrial achievements of the U. S. are the result of an economic system which is the antithesis of socialism. Our economic system is called 'capitalism' or 'private enterprise' and is based on private property rights, the profit motive and competition.

"Both communism and socialism seek to destroy our economic system and replace it with socialism; and their success, whether through evolution by socialism or through revolution by communism or a combination, will destroy not only our economic system, but our liberty, including the 'civil' aspects as well . . .

". . . The 'common ground' of socialism and communism is a factor to which the American people should be alerted. Without a clear understanding that communism is socialism, the total threat and menace of the cold war can never be comprehended and fought to victory."

When socialism is understood, we will realize that many of the programs advocated, and some of those already adopted in the United States, fall clearly within the category of socialism. What is socialism? It is simply governmental ownership and management of the essential means for the production and distribution of goods.

We must never forget that nations may sow the seeds of their own destruction while enjoying unprecedented prosperity.

The socialistic-communist conspiracy to weaken the United States involves attacks on many fronts. To weaken the American free-enterprise economy which outproduced both its enemies and allies during World War II is a high priority target of the communist leaders. Their press and other propaganda media are therefore constantly selling the principles of centralized or federal control of farms, railroads, electric power, schools, steel, maritime shipping, and many other aspects of the economy—but always in the name of public welfare.

This carries out the strategy laid down by the communist masters. John Strachey, a top official in the Labor Socialist party of Great Britain, in his book entitled The Theory and Practice of Socialism said:

"It is impossible to establish communism as the immediate successor to capitalism. It is accordingly proposed to establish socialism as something which we can put in the place of our present decaying capitalism. Hence, communists work for the establishment of socialism as a necessary transition stage on the road to communism."

The paramount issue today is liberty against creeping socialism. It is in this spirit that President McKay stated:

"Communism is antagonistic to the American way of life. Its avowed purpose is to destroy belief in God and free enterprise . . . The fostering of full economic freedom lies at the base of our liberties. Only in perpetuating economic freedom can our social, political, and religious liberties be preserved." (Excerpt from Inaugural address for Dr. Henry A. Dixon, President of USU, delivered by President McKay at the USU fieldhouse, Logan, Utah, Monday, March 18, 1954.)

Again President McKay warned, citing the words of W. C. Mullendore, president of Southern California Edison Company:

"During the first half of the twentieth century we have traveled far into the soul-destroying land of socialism and made strange alliances through which we have become involved in almost continuous hot and cold wars over the whole of the earth. In this retreat from freedom the voices of protesting citizens have been drowned by raucous shouts of intolerance and abuse from those who led the retreat and their millions of gullible youth, who are marching merrily to their doom, carrying banners on which are emblazoned such intriguing and misapplied labels as social justice equality, reform patriotism social welfare" (Gospel Ideals, p. 273).

It is significant that 118 years ago this month the Prophet Joseph Smith, after attending lectures on socialism, made this official entry in church history: "I said I did not believe the doctrine" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 33).

No true Latter-day Saint and no true American can be a socialist or a communist or support programs leading in that direction. These evil philosophies are incompatible with Mormonism, the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

What can priesthood holders do? There are many things we can do to meet the challenge of the adversary in our day.

First, we should become informed about communism, about socialism, and about Americanism. What better way can one become informed than by first studying the inspired words of the prophets and using that as a foundation; against which to test all other material. This is in keeping with the Prophet Joseph Smith's motto, "When the Lord commands, do it." (Ibid., Vol. 2, p. 170.)

The Foundation for Economic Education, Irvington-on-Hudson, New York, on which President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., served as a board member, continues to supply sound freedom literature. We should know enough about American free enterprise to be able to defend it. We should know what makes it possible for six percent of humanity—living under our free economy—to produce about one-half of the earth's developed wealth each year.

We should know why paternalism, collectivism, or unnecessary federal supervision will hold our standard of living down and reduce productivity just as it has in every country where it has been tried. We should also know why the communist leaders consider socialism the highroad to communism.

Second, we should accept the command of the Lord and treat socialistic communism as the tool of Satan. We should follow the counsel of the President of the Church and resist the influence and policies of the socialist-communist conspiracy wherever they are found—in the schools, in the churches, in governments, in unions, in businesses, in agriculture.

Third, we should help those who have been deceived or who are misinformed to find the truth. Unless each person who knows the truth will "stand up and speak up" it is difficult for the deceived or confused citizen to find his way back.

Fourth, we should not make the mistake of calling people "communist" just because they happen to be helping the communist cause. Thousands of patriotic Americans, including a few Latter-day Saints, have helped the communists without realizing it. Others have knowingly helped without joining the party. The remedy is to avoid name-calling, but point out clearly and persuasively how they are helping the communists.

Fifth, each priesthood holder should use his influence in the community to resist the erosion process which is taking place in our political and economic life. He should use the political party of his choice to express his evaluation of important issues. He should see that his party is working to preserve freedom, not destroy it. He should join responsible local groups interested in promoting freedom and free competitive enterprise, in studying political issues, appraising the voting records and proposed programs, and writing to members of Congress, promoting good men in public office and scrutinizing local, state, and federal agencies to see that the will of the people is being carried out. He should not wait for the Lord's servants to give instruction for every detail once they have announced the direction in which the priesthood should go. Each member should exercise prayerful judgment and then act.

Sixth, and most important of all, each member of the priesthood should set his own house in order (D&C 93:43). This should include:

1. Regular family prayer, remembering especially our government leaders.

2. Getting out of debt.

3. Seeing that each member of the family understands the importance of keeping the commandments.

4. Seeing that the truth is shared with members of the family, with neighbors, and with associates.

5. Seeing that each member is performing his duties in the priesthood, in the auxiliary organizations, in the temple, and in the civic life of the community.

6. Seeing that every wage earner in the home is a full tithepayer and fulfilling other obligations in financial support of the kingdom.

7. Providing a one-year supply of essentials.

In doing these things a member of the Church is not only making himself an opponent of the adversary, but a proponent of the Lord.

In the prophecies there is no promise except to the obedient. To a modern prophet the Lord said:

"Therefore, what I say unto one, I say unto all: Watch, for the adversary spreadeth his dominions, and darkness reigneth;

"And the anger of God kindleth against the inhabitants of the earth;

". . . I give unto you directions how you may act before me, that it may turn to you for your salvation.

"I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise" (D&C 82:5-6,9-10).

May God give us the wisdom to recognize the threat to our freedom and the strength to meet this danger courageously.

Yes, perilous times are ahead, but if we do our duty in all things, God will give us inner peace and overrule all things for our good. God grant it may be so, I pray, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

[Lexew1899]

The problem is most LDS have been too lazy to learn the difference between all of the different economic systems and consecration, the only economic system ever instituted by God.

[lundbaek]

Although there are members of the Church in European countries who abhor socialism and communism, and some who understand and appreciate principles of the US Constitution, there are many in those countries who like the socialism under which they live.

[Robin Hood]

Although there are members of the Church in European countries who abhor socialism and communism, and some who understand and appreciate principles of the US Constitution, there are many in those countries who like the socialism under which they live.

This again!
Name one socialist country in Europe. Just one.
I don't mean socialist according to the la la land definition, I mean actually socialist in real life.

[gkearney]

Robin Hood, you have been here long enough to understand that ANYTHING even remotely connected with public services are viewed by some here as socialist. With this trip wire in place EVERYONE lives in a socialist county because everyone drives upon public streets, has enjoyed public parks, use a public library and so on.

There are a few here who claim to have not taken advantage of any of these things they are of course nothing more than simple hypocrites.

They also fail to understand the difference between Communism (government control of all means of production) and the limited forms of socialism found in most of Europe and North America nations. (public transportation, medicine and some degree of a social safety net for the disabled and disadvantage) Even Sweden, often held up as a socialist nation, something the Swedes would strongly reject, has less that 2% of their economy in public hands. But that make little difference here mind you. Anything qualifies.

They quote the late President Benson all the time, but fail to mention his service as the Secretary of Agriculture under the Eisenhower administration. The Agriculture department, particularly at that time, administered perhaps the most blatant set of socialist programs found in the U.S. government. These include crop subsidies, the buying up of surplus production to maintain the price, paying farmers not to plant crops, subsidizing the production of tobacco, running a government run and funded youth program, 4H. (think of it as a U.S. version Young Pioneers.) The list goes on and on.

Rather they want to live in some kind of fairy land where it survival of the fittest, they always envision themselves as "the fittest" mind you. Where they will hold off the unwashed hoards from their wilderness compound or tent city with their stash of guns and ammo. Mowing down all who come in their sights including the impending invasion of Russian/Chinese/North Korean/Muslim/who have you troops using nothing more than a collection of hunting rifles against trained and well equipped forces who have somehow managed to sneak themselves and all their equipment into America undetected.

You get the picture don't you?

[Robin Hood]

Thank you gkearney.
Very well put.

[Separatist]

Although there are members of the Church in European countries who abhor socialism and communism, and some who understand and appreciate principles of the US Constitution, there are many in those countries who like the socialism under which they live.

This again!
Name one socialist country in Europe. Just one.
I don't mean socialist according to the la la land definition, I mean actually socialist in real life.

Right, they are more mixed economy/interventionist/fascist, just like the US...to varying degrees. Pure socialist (state control of the means of production) is tough to find. There aren't any because they simply don't work. See von Mises's Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonweath.

Some countries are simply more socialist inclined than others, that is: prefer centralized vs decentralized economic decision making.

[lundbaek]

President McKay stated way back in 1952 "During the first half of the twentieth century we have traveled far into the soul-destroying land of socialism..." He did not specify America and I believe that statement could apply to at least most nations in varying degrees. Back in 1976 UK Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher told a Thames TV "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run our of other people's money."

[Robin Hood]

President McKay stated way back in 1952 "During the first half of the twentieth century we have traveled far into the soul-destroying land of socialism..." He did not specify America and I believe that statement could apply to at least most nations in varying degrees. Back in 1976 UK Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher told a Thames TV "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run our of other people's money."

The current UK Conservative government is far more right-wing than Margaret Thatcher's government ever was, and yet I'm constantly told by posters on here that I live in a socialist country.
When I went into town the other day there was a stand set up outside the mall by the Socialist Workers Party. They were handing out leaflets decrying the government for it's dogma of free enterprise, minimum state intervention, personal responsibility, subsistence level welfare for the disabled, private property ownership and so on. They certainly don't think this is anything like a socialist country.
They're right.

I have been to East Germany when it was a socialist "paradise". I know what a socialist country looks like, feels like, sounds like, and smells like. Those on here who think the UK, or the US, or any current western European nation is socialist either have rocks in their head or are living in a parallel universe.

[lundbaek]

I also went 3 times into East Germany in the 1960s and recognize that it was far more steeped in socialism than any so-called western country. If I understand correctly, there is now as serious push to extract the UK from the EU. Friends and my wife's family in Denmark tell us they would love to get out of it but they feel like they are in chains now. Both Denmark and Germany espouse the same government-run safety nets that impose heavy burden on their economies. And I read that although Swedes still espouse socialism there has been more privatization and lowering of taxes in recent years.

[David13]

Even Sweden ... has less that 2% of their economy in public hands.

Kearney
You are saying that the government in Sweden is 2% of the economy? What would that figure be in the United States?
dc

[gkearney]

Even Sweden ... has less that 2% of their economy in public hands.

Kearney
You are saying that the government in Sweden is 2% of the economy? What would that figure be in the United States?
dc

What I am saying is that Swedish government has direct control over 2% of the nations GDP. Sweden isn't the US however for example Sweden does not have anything close to the military obligations of the US. Sweden is also a small nation on the edge of Europe, I don't know if you can make a comparison like this.

[Fiannan]

And I read that although Swedes still espouse socialism there has been more privatization and lowering of taxes in recent years.

Not really. As the population is transformed into a less European one that will cost a great deal of money. Many immigrants from the third world are illiterate in their own languages as well as have infections that cost a lot of money to treat. The cost will be very high but the government probably feels that the middle-aged taxpayers can handle it and then as they retire and die the new immigrants can replace them as the workers and taxpayers in a non-Swede Sweden

[Joel]

Can a member be a Democrat and a good Mormon? That one makes me smile, because if the members who ask it could travel to some countries of the world and meet faithful members of the Church who belong to their national communist parties I fear their blood pressure might be permanently damaged.

Source: On The Record - Michael R. Otterson of LDS Church Public Affairs

[Fiannan]

[Robin Hood]

The problem with this Fiannan, is that ETB himself implemented policies and procedures when he was in government, which many people on this forum would describe as socialist.
Therefore, I would suggest that those who champion Pres. Benson in this regard would do well to evaluate exactly what socialism really is in practice (rather than their idea of what it is); because it certainly appears to me that what they regard as socialism and what Pres. Benson regarded as socialism do not appear to align particularly well.

[Fiannan]

The problem with this Fiannan, is that ETB himself implemented policies and procedures when he was in government, which many people on this forum would describe as socialist.
Therefore, I would suggest that those who champion Pres. Benson in this regard would do well to evaluate exactly what socialism really is in practice (rather than their idea of what it is); because it certainly appears to me that what they regard as socialism and what Pres. Benson regarded as socialism do not appear to align particularly well.

That is akin to saying an atheist who shuns alcohol and tobacco is essentially incorporating Mormonism into his life.

Socialism and free enterprise have some overlap if you are aiming at a pragmatic goal in society (i.e. social security or public education) but to say that if you support socialism if you support such policies makes the same amount of sense as saying the atheist described above is a closet Mormon.

Socialists see their policy as the government ruling over people's lives, an "I know what is best for you" philosophical viewpoint.

[dauser]

As long as the violence and the hate is administered legally by government and not vigilantes.

As long as the take is redistributed to needy beneficiaries according to law and order and not vigilantes.

Penalties for disobedience should be established by law and not vigilante justice.

Selfish neighbors need to learn charity...with just a delicate balance of compulsion as needed of course.

Forcing reluctant citizens to perform acts of charity against their will is the mark of a true Latter Day Aint.

[dauser]

How America's Welfare System Hurts the People It's Supposed to Help

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nehJfvlQb6M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[kirtland r.m.]

The Proper Role of Government
THE PROPER ROLE OF GOVERNMENT

Excerpts from the article by The Honorable Ezra Taft Benson.

GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE BASED UPON SOUND PRINCIPLES

Moral principles do not change. They are applicable and reliable determinants whether the situations with which we deal are simple or complicated. There is always a right and wrong to every question which requires our solution.

Unlike the political opportunist, the true statesman values principle above popularity, and works to create popularity for those political principles which are wise and just.

THE CORRECT ROLE OF GOVERNMENT

These are the principles which, in my opinion, proclaim the proper role of government in the domestic affairs of the nation.

"(I) believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society."

"(I) believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life…"

"(I) believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, which protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience." (D&C 134: 1-2,5)

THE MOST IMPORTANT FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT

It is generally agreed that the most important single function of government is to secure the rights and freedoms of individual citizens. The great Thomas Jefferson asked: "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?" (Works 8:404; P.P.N.S., p.141)

Starting at the foundation of the pyramid, let us first consider the origin of those freedoms we have come to know as human rights. There are only two possible sources. Rights are either God-given as part of the Divine Plan, or they are granted by government as part of the political plan. Reason, necessity, tradition and religious convictions all lead me to accept the divine origin of these rights. If we accept the premise that human rights are granted by government, then we must be willing to accept the corollary that they can be denied by government. I, for one, shall never accept that premise. As the French political economist, Frederick Bastiat, phrased it so succinctly, "Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place." (The Law, p.6)

THE SOURCE OF GOVERNMENTAL POWER

The important thing to keep in mind is that the people who have created their government can give to that government only such powers as they, themselves, have in the first place. Obviously, they cannot give that which they do not possess. So, the question boils down to this. What powers properly belong to each and every person in the absence of and prior to the establishment of any organized governmental form? A hypothetical question? Yes, indeed! But, it is a question which is vital to an understanding of the principles which underlie the proper function of government.

THE PROPER FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT

This means, then, that the proper function of government is limited only to those spheres of activity within which the individual citizen has the right to act. By deriving its just powers from the governed, government becomes primarily a mechanism for defense against bodily harm, theft and involuntary servitude. It cannot claim the power to redistribute the wealth or force reluctant citizens to perform acts of charity against their will. Government is created by man. No man possesses such power to delegate. The creature cannot exceed the creator.

In general terms, therefore, the proper role of government includes such defensive activities, as maintaining national military and local police forces for protection against loss of life, loss of property, and loss of liberty at the hands of either foreign despots or domestic criminals.

THE POWERS OF A PROPER GOVERNMENT

As John Locke explained many years ago:

“The end of law is not to abolish or restrain, but to preserve and enlarge freedom. For in all the states of created beings, capable of laws, where there is no law there is no freedom. For liberty is to be free from restraint and violence from others, which cannot be where there is no law; and is not, as we are told, ‘a liberty for every man to do what he lists.’ For who could be free, when every other man’s humour might domineer over him? But a liberty to dispose and order freely as he lists his person, actions, possessions, and his whole property within the allowance of those laws under which he is, and therein not to be subject to the arbitrary will of another, but freely follow his own.” (Two Treatises of Civil Government, II, 57: P>P>N>S., p.101)

THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES

Another standard I use in deterring what law is good and what is bad is the Constitution of the United States. I regard this inspired document as a solemn agreement between the citizens of this nation which every officer of government is under a sacred duty to obey. As Washington stated so clearly in his immortal Farewell Address:

THE VALUE OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT

It is a firm principle that the smallest or lowest level that can possibly undertake the task is the one that should do so. First, the community or city. If the city cannot handle it, then the county. Next, the state; and only if no smaller unit can possible do the job should the federal government be considered. It is well to remember that the states of this republic created the Federal Government. The Federal Government did not create the states.

FIFTEEN PRINCIPLES WHICH MAKE FOR GOOD AND PROPER GOVERNMENT

As an Independent American for constitutional government I declare that:

(1) I believe that no people can maintain freedom unless their political institutions are founded upon faith in God and belief in the existence of moral law.

(2) I believe that God has endowed men with certain unalienable rights as set forth in the Declaration of Independence and that no legislature and no majority, however great, may morally limit or destroy these; that the sole function of government is to protect life, liberty, and property and anything more than this is usurpation and oppression.

(3) I believe that the Constitution of the United States was prepared and adopted by men acting under inspiration from Almighty God; that it is a solemn compact between the peoples of the States of this nation which all officers of government are under duty to obey; that the eternal moral laws expressed therein must be adhered to or individual liberty will perish.

(4) I believe it a violation of the Constitution for government to deprive the individual of either life, liberty, or property except for these purposes:

(a) Punish crime and provide for the administration of justice;

(b) Protect the right and control of private property;

(c) Wage defensive war and provide for the nation’s defense;

(d) Compel each one who enjoys the protection of government to bear his fair share of the burden of performing the above functions.

(5) I hold that the Constitution denies government the power to take from the individual either his life, liberty, or property except in accordance with moral law; that the same moral law which governs the actions of men when acting alone is also applicable when they act in concert with others; that no citizen or group of citizens has any right to direct their agent, the government to perform any act which would be evil or offensive to the conscience if that citizen were performing the act himself outside the framework of government.

(6) I am hereby resolved that under no circumstances shall the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights be infringed. In particular I am opposed to any attempt on the part of the Federal Government to deny the people their right to bear arms, to worship and pray when and where they choose, or to own and control private property.

(7) I consider ourselves at war with international Communism which is committed to the destruction of our government, our right of property, and our freedom; that it is treason as defined by the Constitution to give aid and comfort to this implacable enemy.

(8) I am unalterable opposed to Socialism, either in whole or in part, and regard it as an unconstitutional usurpation of power and a denial of the right of private property for government to own or operate the means of producing and distributing goods and services in competition with private enterprise, or to regiment owners in the legitimate use of private property.

(9) I maintain that every person who enjoys the protection of his life, liberty, and property should bear his fair share of the cost of government in providing that protection; that the elementary principles of justice set forth in the Constitution demand that all taxes imposed be uniform and that each person’s property or income be taxed at the same rate.

(10) I believe in honest money, the gold and silver coinage of the Constitution, and a circulation medium convertible into such money without loss. I regard it as a flagrant violation of the explicit provisions of the Constitution for the Federal Government to make it a criminal offense to use gold or silver coin as legal tender or to use irredeemable paper money.

(11) I believe that each State is sovereign in performing those functions reserved to it by the Constitution and it is destructive of our federal system and the right of self-government guaranteed under the Constitution for the Federal Government to regulate or control the States in performing their functions or to engage in performing such functions itself.

(12) I consider it a violation of the Constitution for the Federal Government to levy taxes for the support of state or local government; that no State or local government can accept funds from the Federal and remain independent in performing its functions, nor can the citizens exercise their rights of self-government under such conditions.

(13) I deem it a violation of the right of private property guaranteed under the Constitution for the Federal Government to forcibly deprive the citizens of this nation of their property through taxation or otherwise, and make a gift thereof to foreign governments or their citizens.

(14) I believe that no treaty or agreement with other countries should deprive our citizens of rights guaranteed them by the Constitution.

(15) I consider it a direct violation of the obligation imposed upon it by the Constitution for the Federal Government to dismantle or weaken our military establishment below that point required for the protection of the States against invasion, or to surrender or commit our men, arms, or money to the control of foreign ore world organizations of governments.

These things I believe to be the proper role of government.

We have strayed far afield. We must return to basic concepts and principles – to eternal verities. There is no other way. The storm signals are up. They are clear and ominous.

As Americans – citizens of the greatest nation under Heaven – we face difficult days. Never since the days of the Civil War – 100 years ago – has this choice nation faced such a crisis.

In closing I wish to refer you to the words of the patriot Thomas Paine, whose writings helped so much to stir into a flaming spirit the smoldering embers of patriotism during the days of the American Revolution:

“These are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands it NOW, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; ‘tis dearness only that gives everything its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed, if so celestial and article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.” (THE POLITICAL WORKS OF THOMAS PAINE, p.55.)

I intend to keep fighting. My personal attitude is one of resolution – not resignation.

I have faith in the American people. I pray that we will never do anything that will jeopardize in any manner our priceless heritage. If we live and work so as to enjoy the approbation of a Divine Providence, we cannot fail. Without that help we cannot long endure.

ALL RIGHT-THINKING AMERICANS SHOULD NOW TAKE THEIR STAND

So I urge all Americans to put their courage to the test. Be firm in our conviction that our cause is just. Reaffirm our faith in all things for which true Americans have always stood.

I urge all Americans to arouse themselves and stay aroused. We must not make any further concessions to communism at home or abroad. We do not need to. We should oppose communism from our position of strength for we are not weak.

There is much work to be done. The time is short. Let us begin – in earnest – now and may God bless our efforts, I humbly pray. Here is a link to entire talk.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... aft+benson

[iWriteStuff]

The problem with this Fiannan, is that ETB himself implemented policies and procedures when he was in government, which many people on this forum would describe as socialist.
Therefore, I would suggest that those who champion Pres. Benson in this regard would do well to evaluate exactly what socialism really is in practice (rather than their idea of what it is); because it certainly appears to me that what they regard as socialism and what Pres. Benson regarded as socialism do not appear to align particularly well.

Normally I hate Disney, but I think this picture tells you everything you need to know about communism:

socialism.jpg (11.12 KiB) Viewed 2787 times

[dlbww]

The problem I see with government sponsored socialism or communism (forced socialism) is that it is in direct opposition to God's plan of agency. A brief example: We have a bicycle helmet law, if I want to ride a bike I need a certified bicycle helmet or I will receive a fine. The reason is we have a socialized health care system so if I get injured while riding my bike (because I'm not wearing a helmet) and spend the rest of my years in a wheel chair then our socialized disability pension pays me. Therefore it is in everyone's best interest for me to wear a helmet when I ride my bike. It sounds like this could be a good thing, however, taken to the extreme (which is where society now finds itself with government wanting to be in charge of every aspect of our lives; socialism) we get scenarios like this: Briefly, we live on acreage, I wanted to purchase and install a 20'x35' Gothic arch style metal framed hoop house/greenhouse and a 1500 gallon water tank on our property. Both are considered temporary structures, engineered by the manufacturers, etc. Both will require building permits and both will require site specific engineering certificates at an approximate total cost of $3500 (for approximately $6300 worth of materials). Looks like I'll be doing this without a permit.

I wrote my local government representative a lengthy letter. I think this portion about sums it up: "I thought government was promoting the zero mile diet, cutting our emissions footprint, etc., wrong again. And the same people/committee that won’t let me install a greenhouse without this onerous cost are the same people that brought us the leaky condo fiasco and who are constantly changing the building code to supposedly protect us from ourselves. I don’t want to be protected from myself, I believe that God made us agents unto ourselves. Where do I sign to free myself from this onerous government overreach? I want my agency back! Seriously!"

[light-one]

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It's April Fools Day

[dlbww]

I could write a book about these onerous rules. It gets so much worse. I built our house and have considered building a cottage. When I built the house I did everything from drawing up the plans to putting on the metal roof to installing the septic field, etc. If I were to build again I would have to take a 6 month course to install the same gravity feed septic field (new rule). After some inquiries I discovered that because I have running water on the property (our well) I cannot have an outhouse on the property (not even with a permit) so technically if I'm out in the orchard, can't make it back to the house to use the bathroom and pee in the woods I'm breaking the law.

After giving some thought to this whole process my approach for now is going to be, don't ask, don't tell.

[light-one]

The government has gone too far. It's not just in Washington DC, it's in our own wards. People have become complacent and pansy arsed. They sit back and wait for God to fix it. God WILL fix it, when the Elders of the Church (you and me) decide that we have had enough.

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