LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

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freedomforall
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LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by freedomforall »

If Martial Law were to be enacted, what should "We The People" do?
If gun confiscation were to be actuated, what should LDS's do?
If the 2nd Amendment were to be destroyed which direction would the church leadership take, for or against self preservation and defense against tyranny whatever it takes?
What is God's stance on the matter?

Ideas?
Open discussion.
Concerns?
If there is to be Elders of the church stand up and save the Constitution, who are they and to what extent and measures will they take to save it, if not with blood, with a new Title of Liberty held high or with crossed fingers behind their backs?

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marc
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by marc »

It's important to understand the chain of events as prophecied by Isaiah, Daniel, John, etc in conjunction with what we as latter-day saints have been commanded to do. I am prepared to do what the Lord will have me do. I'm certainly interested in seeing how the church organization survives along the way.

samizdat
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by samizdat »

[quote="freedomforall"]If Martial Law were to be enacted, what should "We The People" do?
The Church would continue to operate like as is in the other 180+ nations where bearing arms is not a protection.

Guns will not be confiscated as that would lead to civil war especially in the south and interior west.

They will go Mexico's route. The MX constitution guarantees the right to bear arms but government has regulated guns to the point that it is nearly impossible to get one legally. It is simple and your president can do the same while claiming that he is keeping to the paper (his words not mine)

Robert Sinclair
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by Robert Sinclair »

You may be fine, until someone is in power, who feels Mormons, might potentially be enemies of the Federal Government, like here in Oregon, where the Wildlife Sanctuary was taken over by men with guns and such, calling themselves Mormons, and taken the title "Captain Moroni", and notwitstanding you might have nothing whatsoever to do with what they are doing, a person in power feels, otherwise, and that you might be guilty of being involved, until proven otherwise, and your property, assets, and friends and family rounded up by the military, and jailed, until proven innocent. This may sound extreme, but all it would take, is an extreme leader in charge, and people like those outside Burns Oregon, to start things in the wrong direction, turning into a real problem for those innocent of any wrong doing. And freefomforall, it is not just your guns, but everything you own, and everyone you might know or be assoiciated with. I do not feel the current president may do anything, but who knows if this drags on and on much longer?

Good to take a look, and see what you think, might be agreed in Congress about this very soon, Mormons with guns, doing what they are doing here in Oregon, might be looked upon closer very soon. They are still there, and have not agreed to back down yet, and they have weapons. Truly hope no one is harmed, under this new order signed, which can soon be potentially used against them, by the military of the United States of America, seeing them as armed, militants, against the Federal Government, with this new order signed. May a peaceful end come soon.♡

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freedomforall
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by freedomforall »

samizdat wrote:
freedomforall wrote:If Martial Law were to be enacted, what should "We The People" do?
The Church would continue to operate like as is in the other 180+ nations where bearing arms is not a protection.

Guns will not be confiscated as that would lead to civil war especially in the south and interior west. Many guns were confiscated right after Katrina, right in the South.

They will go Mexico's route. The MX constitution guarantees the right to bear arms but government has regulated guns to the point that it is nearly impossible to get one legally. It is simple and your president can do the same while claiming that he is keeping to the paper (his words not mine)

kennyhs
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by kennyhs »

Interesting question FFA

Since the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, to which we believe is an inspired document from God, I do not think the church would agree with taking away our right to bear arms anymore than they would agree with changing a commandment of God.

lundbaek
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by lundbaek »

I hope Kennyhs is correct, in his suggestion that the LDS Church would not agree with taking away our right to bear arms. If I understand D&C 134:5 correctly, we are bound to sustain and uphold our government in which we reside, but only as long as we are protected in our inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of our government. However, I have to ask if the LDS Church authority has ever supported legislation that infringed on people's rights of control of private property.

samizdat
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by samizdat »

freedomforall wrote:
samizdat wrote:
freedomforall wrote:If Martial Law were to be enacted, what should "We The People" do?
The Church would continue to operate like as is in the other 180+ nations where bearing arms is not a protection.

Guns will not be confiscated as that would lead to civil war especially in the south and interior west. Many guns were confiscated right after Katrina, right in the South.

They will go Mexico's route. The MX constitution guarantees the right to bear arms but government has regulated guns to the point that it is nearly impossible to get one legally. It is simple and your president can do the same while claiming that he is keeping to the paper (his words not mine)
Completely localized, specifically to New Orleans. A National confiscation would be impossible for the parameters that I put.

JohnnyL
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by JohnnyL »

freedomforall wrote:If Martial Law were to be enacted, what should "We The People" do?
If gun confiscation were to be actuated, what should LDS's do?
If the 2nd Amendment were to be destroyed which direction would the church leadership take, for or against self preservation and defense against tyranny whatever it takes?
What is God's stance on the matter?

Ideas?
Open discussion.
Concerns?
If there is to be Elders of the church stand up and save the Constitution, who are they and to what extent and measures will they take to save it, if not with blood, with a new Title of Liberty held high or with crossed fingers behind their backs?
Fervent prayer. I don't know, really.
Not for direct instruction, but...
There is a story in one of the pioneer journals about this thing happening when a mob came for the saints. They could have wiped out the mob, but word came just then from JS to give up their guns peacefully and all would be ok. Prayer, thinking maybe the prophet didn't know about the changes and the opportunity. Give them up. They did, they were all captured and tied, then later released and told to walk away in a line. After so many yards (20?), they were fired upon, and no one was hit. They kept walking, and after so many more yards, fired upon again. No one was hit, and they just walked away.
Remember also this: 1 Ne. 14: 14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

JohnnyL
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by JohnnyL »

lundbaek wrote:I hope Kennyhs is correct, in his suggestion that the LDS Church would not agree with taking away our right to bear arms. If I understand D&C 134:5 correctly, we are bound to sustain and uphold our government in which we reside, but only as long as we are protected in our inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of our government. However, I have to ask if the LDS Church authority has ever supported legislation that infringed on people's rights of control of private property.
Or maybe, has the church ever OPPOSED any law, anywhere, after it has been passed? I can only recall of BY/JT/WW doing that, and it didn't go well the longer along it got.

capctr
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by capctr »

What if the 2nd amendment IS abolished "legally", and just as JS did, the living prophet exhorts us to surrender our arms peacefully? How many would give heed? How many would lose faith in their anger? How many would be able to view it as an exercise assigned from God, to strengthen our faith, and to teach us that He really will go before and behind us?

freedomforall
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by freedomforall »

capctr wrote:What if the 2nd amendment IS abolished "legally", and just as JS did, the living prophet exhorts us to surrender our arms peacefully? How many would give heed? How many would lose faith in their anger? How many would be able to view it as an exercise assigned from God, to strengthen our faith, and to teach us that He really will go before and behind us?
I don't think so. Why?

D&C 101:80
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

Why would God want us to give up our freedom? Why he raised up the very people to write the Constitution which includes the right to own and bear arms against tyranny.

From: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... g?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No nation which has kept the commandments of God has ever perished, but I say to you that once freedom is lost, only blood—human blood—will win it back.

lundbaek
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by lundbaek »

I believe that if a federal law was created that required all Americans to relinquish their firearms, as egregious and unconstitutional as such an act would be, and if the US president demanded that the Church leadership instruct its membership to comply, the Church leadership would comply by advising all members to comply. Failure/refusal of the Church leadership to comply would result in actions by the FedGov that would greatly inhibit the primary mission of the Church.

We need to keep in mind that those "murderous combinations" that the Lord warned us about thru Mormon (Ether 8) have gotten well above us, in big part as result of our not having awakened to our "awful situation" and having suffered those "murderous combinations" to get above us. The Lord could intervene on behalf of those of us who would want to keep out guns. But so many Church members ignored the pleas of His prophets and apostles to learn, uphold and abide by the Constitution that He just might let us suffer the consequences of our disobedience.

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Sirocco
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by Sirocco »

freedomforall wrote:If Martial Law were to be enacted, what should "We The People" do?
If gun confiscation were to be actuated, what should LDS's do?
If the 2nd Amendment were to be destroyed which direction would the church leadership take, for or against self preservation and defense against tyranny whatever it takes?
What is God's stance on the matter?

Ideas?
Open discussion.
Concerns?
If there is to be Elders of the church stand up and save the Constitution, who are they and to what extent and measures will they take to save it, if not with blood, with a new Title of Liberty held high or with crossed fingers behind their backs?

Would that be something that the LDS church would really want to get involved in, especially now a days since the majority aren't American, and trying to get involved in specific politics has done them no favours in the past.

lundbaek
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by lundbaek »

Like it or not, up until October 1987 the talks by prophet and apostles telling members in no uncertain terms of the importance of learning, upholding and abiding by the principles of the US Constitution were given to all members of the Church. And I know of some members in other countries who understood and were respectful of what they said, even though they acknowledged that they could do little to implement its principles in their own countries. I don't think the problem is that most members are not American. I think the problem is that so many members, even in the United States, have become so indoctrinated with persuasions of socialism that for the Church to promote the principles of the US Constitution now would cause division within the Church that would hinder its primary mission. It seems that some members of this forum think that the principles of the U.S. Constitution are not good for the governing of citizens anywhere. Apparently, the facts that the Lord told us that He established the Constitution of the United States by the hands of wise men whom He raised up for that very purpose, that it was meant for all people (all flesh), it was meant to stand "forever", and that His prophets and apostles have told us to learn, uphold, and abide by its principles means naught.

Truth be known, I believe the Church leadership would prefer that we back off from the Constitution and freedom issues for a couple of reasons.

First, I believe the Church leadership is concerned that if members of the Church get active promoting the Constitution and freedom and opposing the government, the government will come down on the Church and hell will come with them. The retribution would certainly hinder the missionary and building programs of the Church, and perhaps mess us up in other ways as well.

Second, I have been told by our area seventy of the concern that the disagreements that can arise within the Church, among members, could cause serious dissension and interfere with the primary mission of the Church. This I have already seen myself in our stake and in other adjacent stakes.

Third, I think it is too late to turn things around now. Those murderous combinations that the Lord warned us about thru Moroni in Ether 8 have gotten above us.

It seems to me that back when prophets pleaded with us to learn the principles of the Constitution "in the tradition of the Founding Fathers" and do all we could to protect our freedoms, there was still time to turn things around. I note that 1987 was the last year we actually got instruction from an prophet Re. the US Constitution . Since them there has been no instruction from Church HQ; only the occasional reminder about the Constitution. But then, in May 2014 Elder Oaks made that statement in a radio interview that "I see it as a responsibility for well educated citizens, members of the bar and opinion leaders to be acquainted with the United States Constitution and its guarantees." Is that any different from what President Benson, President McKay, and other dead prophets told us ? I don't think so. Beyond that, I think the best I can do is to encourage and persuade others to learn the principles of the US Constitution as it was originally meant to be understood so that after the "cleansing" there will be a remnant prepared to restore its principles to the government we will have at that time.

I personally think that if enuf Mormons had done as our prophets admonished us up until October 1987 that the Lord would have intervened and enabled us to rally other Americans in the battle to turn things around. I still believe that the idea was that if Americans had espoused and abode by the Constitution that, as earlier prophets and apostles suggested in their talks, its principles would have reverberated to other nations where citizens would have desired and worked for similar forms of government. But it seems that Americans generally have espoused the principles of the governments of other countries.

I also think that if, following those admonitions from the prophets about learning, upholding and abiding by the Constitution, if Church authorities on the local levels in the USA had followed up, we might well be lots better off today. I cannot recall a single occasion in my 56 years in the Church when a bishop or a stake president spoke about the Constitution and freedom in any way that was meant to motivate the members to action. My memory is not the greatest, but there have been a few stake firesides in this area on the Constitution given by one man, and after one of those the stake president endorsed what the speaker had said.

Now we are being admonished to be righteous, with no mention of righteousness including abiding by the principles of the Constitution. I think it will only be after the cleansing that things will get turned around.

Ezra
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by Ezra »

I agree with ya Lundbaek

A few year ago I arranged for a constitutional speaker to teach and 5th Sunday lesson.

A hand full of people through it was really great.

Most sat there and didn't respond.

A few got so upset they went and complained to the stake pres. Who issued a letter to be read in our ward denouncing his talk. Without knowing what had been said. Which was quote after quote from prophets appostles and scripture. He hardly even commented his own opinion.

Sad day in my ward to watch the words of prophets be denounced because of the hard heartedness of a few members. And a stake president who just assumed.

When the speaker went in for his temple recommend renewal he spoke to the stake pres and brought a copy of his talk. The pres apologized that he sent the letter denouncing his talk. But he never formally removed his denouncement.

I spoke with the stake pres later to let him know what damage had been done as it had turned the hearts of many of the ward members including my bishop who I had been teaching about the importance of the constitution.
But yet he never did publicly announce his mistake.
I imagin gods Judgement will fall on him if he does not repent.

lundbaek
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by lundbaek »

Thank you, Ezra, for that immediately above post. I have heard similar stories, but none so egregious as that one. Close, but not quite. I have had opportunities to speak on the Constitution and on the Declaration of Independence in sacrament meetings, priesthood classes and in a fireside. And I have attended other such events in other stakes, usually in support of the speaker. I am happy to note that in addition to the May 2014 statement by Elder Oaks that I mentioned above, since 1987 there have been mentions of the US Constitution by Church authorities. In 1999 President Hinkley stated "...both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States were brought forth under the inspiration of God." On 2 July 2009 Elder Packer said "...to honor the Constitution and to honor freedom is a sacred duty for all of us." Speaking at the December 2011 graduation ceremony at BYU-Idaho Elder Quentin Cook said "Do Latter-day Saints believe the U.S. Constitution is a divinely inspired document? The Lord Himself answered that question when He declared, 'I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise m en whom I raised up unto this very purpose." There may have been additional such statements by Church general authorities that I am unaware of. But just as important, if not more so, there are Latter-day Saints in America who appreciate and espouse the principles of the Constitution as it was intended to be understood, and who are very concerned that it is being circumvented constantly in our government.

Sunain
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by Sunain »

Sirocco wrote:Would that be something that the LDS church would really want to get involved in, especially now a days since the majority aren't American, and trying to get involved in specific politics has done them no favours in the past.
I agree, year after year, the percentage of church members that are American's continues to decrease. Americans are already a minority in the global population of the churches membership. To a majority of the members of the church, the constitution of the United States is pretty much meaningless in their lives and in their dealings with the church. So yes, downplaying the role of the constitution and the political influence on the church is a good thing. If the 2nd amendment was completely retracted, for 65%+ of the members of the church, it wouldn't matter.

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Sirocco
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by Sirocco »

Sunain wrote:
Sirocco wrote:Would that be something that the LDS church would really want to get involved in, especially now a days since the majority aren't American, and trying to get involved in specific politics has done them no favours in the past.
I agree, year after year, the percentage of church members that are American's continues to decrease. Americans are already a minority in the global population of the churches membership. To a majority of the members of the church, the constitution of the United States is pretty much meaningless in their lives and in their dealings with the church. So yes, downplaying the role of the constitution and the political influence on the church is a good thing. If the 2nd amendment was completely retracted, for 65%+ of the members of the church, it wouldn't matter.
Regardless of who says (or believes or even if its true that the US constitution was inspired by God or whatever) that doesn't change the fact that some places the LDS church are in... aren't so liking of the US, generally not a good idea to go to Russia and tote how great the US government is.
And it kind of plays a favouritism sort of thing and kind of says "you'll never be as good as the US LDS people they're really the ones we care about".
While the US may seem like a great place to someone living in the 3rd world, I don't live in the 3rd world and from what I have seen of the US... not a place I'd ever want to live.
I like my gravy on fries, gun laws, free health care, and a lack of Donald Trump! lol

Sunain
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by Sunain »

Sirocco wrote:Regardless of who says (or believes or even if its true that the US constitution was inspired by God or whatever) that doesn't change the fact that some places the LDS church are in... aren't so liking of the US, generally not a good idea to go to Russia and tote how great the US government is.
And it kind of plays a favouritism sort of thing and kind of says "you'll never be as good as the US LDS people they're really the ones we care about".
While the US may seem like a great place to someone living in the 3rd world, I don't live in the 3rd world and from what I have seen of the US... not a place I'd ever want to live.
I like my gravy on fries, gun laws, free health care, and a lack of Donald Trump! lol
Definitely. The church is for the whole world not just the United States. While yes, the constitution a document inspired by God and referenced in the Doctrine and Covenants, it is not the be all and end all of law documents that the church needs completely follow. We have the right to defend ourselves, but like for us here in Canada, we have had gun laws for years, but that has not stopped anyone from legally obtaining a gun. The gun registry was a complete and utter failure here in Canada and obtaining illegal weapons is just as easy as it is in the United States.

I did notice recently in a press statement from the church that they mentioned The Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Our individual right to religious freedom is protected by the First Amendment to the United States’ Constitution and by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Last edited by Sunain on February 1st, 2016, 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sirocco
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by Sirocco »

I have that charter hanging on my wall.

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by kirtland r.m. »

One thing more. I ask you men who have been with Joseph in the wars he passed through, and who were with him at the time of his death, what was it that preserved us, to all outward appearances? It is true, in reality, God did it. But by what means did He keep the mob from destroying us? It was by means of being well armed with the weapons of death to send them to hell cross lots. Just so you have got to do. Brigham young J.D. vol. 1 p.172

Sunain
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Re: LDS Church vs 2nd Amendment

Post by Sunain »

Could always 3D print a gun now. There are just so many ways for people to have weapons that any attempt to collect the weapons in some kind of governmental law would make a huge black market online and in local areas.
On Sunday, a West Virginia carpenter who goes by the name "Derwood" released a new video (above) of his "Shuty-MP1" firearm, a small semi-automatic 9mm weapon that is almost entirely 3D-printed with inexpensive PLA plastic. The only parts of the gun that are metal are the steel barrel and springs.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016 ... ol-debuts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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