What non-Americans fail to realize about the Promised Land

[lundbaek]

I have stated this before in different words. There are members of the LDS Church in Europe and the UK who recognize and disapprove that the governments they live and work under support the needs of many of their citizens with wealth taken from other citizens more economically successful. Others, especially members dependent upon legislated charity, are happy for it. I have discussed this with I don't remember now how many different members, mostly in England and Denmark, but a few in Germany. I found several who recognize the "legal plunder", but are content that the government is taking care of a problem that they would gladly pay to have someone else deal with.

[lundbaek]

Those statements above quoted by Freedomforall and many others similar are declared by many members to be out of date, not applicable in our day, and/or uninspired, even though none of them have ever been repealed or corrected. The only change I am aware of is the approval by Church authority for members to seek government assistance. And I imagine that approval was directed to members living in the USA, since the Church certainly had been turning a blind eye to members in other countries seeking assistance from government as far back as I can remember, which is 1960.

[freedomforall]

Any Latter-day Saint who understands ObamaCare and thinks it is a good program is certainly not aware of the warnings that David O. McKay, Marion G. Romney, Ezra Taft Benson, and Howard W. Hunter gave against socialism. If such members had a testimony that the Lord actually speaks thru prophets and apostles they might more readily follow their advice and counsel.

Yeah sometimes people say follow everything Prophets say, then others don't (when something troubling or backwards to our modern day comes up), how do you sort that?
Once upon a time blacks in the priesthood was unthought of, now its totally normal.
When do you suppose this whole "socialism issue" becomes yesterday's news?

When the righteous, those who eschew socialism, want free enterprise and pure liberty and freedom dwell with Christ during the Millennium.
For the most part Americans have destroyed the Constitution as stated by President Benson. It is because of apathy, complacency, carelessness. ignorance, moral decay and just plain rebellion as to how and why America is going down the swirly bowl. Nevertheless, God will not forget his righteous children, even those that really didn't have any power to change the down-slope of America, yet cared about the welfare of Zion and at least spoke out for justice, freedom and liberty as written by our Founding Fathers, those who were raised up by God for the very purpose of giving us the Supreme Law of the land...the Constitution. It was for all flesh around the world had they adopted it like Father wanted.

Doctrine and Covenants 101:77
77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;

A high percentage of Americans have chosen much less than just and holy principles, including Obamacare, legalized plunder by government, gun control, land grabs like the Bundy's in Nevada and the Hammonds in Oregon.

The US government does not have the right to own any land except for the ten square miles in DC and Military posts.

Please, please, please, please, please...listen to this. This is so powerful and educational.

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17 and Article 4, Section 3, Clause 2

[freedomforall]

Congress Fails Again....Congress to send A bill to defund Planned Parenthood and to repeal Obamacare mandate and the taxes...

The "genealogy" of the Constitution

[Sirocco]

You do realize I'm Canadian, and more then that I live in Canada.
Obamacare and gun control don't effect me, I really don't understand what America is "supposed to be" and it makes little difference if it is or not, I am not going to live there, I don't really like to visit lol.
The whole thing about God and the constitution comes off to me as horribly arrogant and pandering.
I didn't start going to church to hear how great America is (since I find the country repulsive, for reasons I've already stated, and even if I didn't I don't live there).

[light-one]

Lucifer is a socialist and that is the very thing that separated him from Jesus. His "no child left behind" proposal was such a horrendous idea that God not only kicked him and his followers out, but removed the ability to repent. This makes socialism far worse than murder. It is possible to be forgiven for murder. Socialism is not only theft for which there is a specific commandment against, but also involves secret combinations to pull it off. God does not take lightly the theft of not only the workers money, but also the theft of an entire nation's integrity, morale, and motivation. Socialism creates dependency and kills the prosperous principle of self reliance.

[lundbaek]

Sirocco is not the only LDS who finds certain things in the scriptures arrogant and pandering. It seems the scriptures, as well as statements by latter-day prophets and apostles, are to many LDS like a smøgåsbord or a buffet table from which one can pick and choose what suits one's fancy.

[skmo]

This comment:

What complete and utter nonsense!

And this one:

If the shoe fits!

Are both partially correct. The brethren have repeatedly counseled us to be fiscally responsible and select political leaders who will do the best job our individual freedoms and liberties while still needing us, each and every one, to be responsible. The leaders who spoke so strongly about communism and socialism spoke correctly against a system of government that exerted control of every aspect of life. The communism of the USSR and the Far East have been politically communist (No higher power than the Party) and economically socialist (we all work for the government equally, make the same pay, work the same hours, eat the same food, blah, blah, blah) which is a bunch of crap. It's a political entity trying to live a false form of Zion.

As Americans we have seen things in black and white. We're slaves to he state (which is how we viewed China and USSR) or we're free market capitalists. Even with the latter, we're allowing the government to have control over most really big things: Defense (I'll agree with that one) Highways, Transportation (FAA, D.O.T.) and with the Depression we began to REALLY get some small socialist programs: CCC, WPA, and the Brontosaurus in the port-a-potty, Soc. Security. The Sixties ushered in LBJ's War on Poverty, which amounted to destroying inner cities so the government could provide for them and thus control them. THAT is the Socialism I believe we were warned about, but it happened anyway.

For many years we heard complaints about Britain's and Canada's gov't-run healthcare, and we did see some people coming here for medical treatment. They have really turned things around from what I've heard from friends in Canada and the U.K. I still hear some dissatisfaction with Canada, but I don't personally know anyone in the U.K. who has complaints about NHS. While we in the US see it as socialized medicine, it's not anywhere near the type of socialism President Benson warned us about. Moreover, it's what they chose, so either it'll work or they will fix it. The ACA is FAR more like socialism for a couple of reasons: 1) It was passed against a CLEAR MAJORITY OF PEOPLE OPPOSING IT. The Dingbats in Boston and the queens in San Fran all bent over to welcome this destruction of our freedom, but I haven't read of one state who wasn't even or vastly opposed to it and yet it was done. 2) this makes all of our CONFIDENTIAL records property of the government. This was clearly done by a power drunk tyranny oozing filth every which way they can.

[freedomforall]

You do realize I'm Canadian, and more then that I live in Canada.
Obamacare and gun control don't effect me, I really don't understand what America is "supposed to be" and it makes little difference if it is or not, I am not going to live there, I don't really like to visit lol.
The whole thing about God and the constitution comes off to me as horribly arrogant and pandering.
I didn't start going to church to hear how great America is (since I find the country repulsive, for reasons I've already stated, and even if I didn't I don't live there).

America is the "promised land" shown to Lehi, not Canada, not the UK and not Asia. God led he and his family to this land, the land of promise. If you don't care about this fact...then so be it.
So you may not care that it is this land of America, the land you reject, is the very land Christ is going to dwell on for a thousand years. Other than yourself and perhaps RH, Christ must see something in this land worth sojourning on for so long. And I suppose that for those you knock this country have no interest in dwelling with Christ on such a crappy piece of real estate, right?

[Sirocco]

Sirocco is not the only LDS who finds certain things in the scriptures arrogant and pandering. It seems the scriptures, as well as statements by latter-day prophets and apostles, are to many LDS like a smøgåsbord or a buffer table from which one can pick and choose what suits one's fancy.

I'm not the sort of person you should ever base any sort of argument from, trust me.

Everyone does that, the LDS do that all the time (you don't follow the now considered racist teachings anymore, or quote them or cite them as positive, I could throw a ton of quotes from former Prophets at you).
The Bible has a lot of bygone laws (keeping kosher, ethics of slavery, etc).
Religion does that far more then people thing, I am just totally out in the open with it.

[Sirocco]

You do realize I'm Canadian, and more then that I live in Canada.
Obamacare and gun control don't effect me, I really don't understand what America is "supposed to be" and it makes little difference if it is or not, I am not going to live there, I don't really like to visit lol.
The whole thing about God and the constitution comes off to me as horribly arrogant and pandering.
I didn't start going to church to hear how great America is (since I find the country repulsive, for reasons I've already stated, and even if I didn't I don't live there).

America is the "promised land" shown to Lehi. God led he and his family to this land. If you don't care about this fact...then so be it.
So you may not care that it is this land of America, the land you reject, is the very land Christ is going to dwell on for a thousand years. Other than yourself and perhaps RH, Christ must see something in this land worth living on for so long. And I suppose that for those you knock this country have no interest in dwelling with Christ on such a crappy piece of real estate, right?

Well he ain't there yet, and if I am alive when all that happens then I'll surely be proven wrong.
But the future hasn't happened yet, and the US ain't his home just yet.

I wonder how well I'd get along with Jesus or get on in his system of government... probably not well lol
I don't get along with anyone :))

[freedomforall]

You do realize I'm Canadian, and more then that I live in Canada.
Obamacare and gun control don't effect me, I really don't understand what America is "supposed to be" and it makes little difference if it is or not, I am not going to live there, I don't really like to visit lol.
The whole thing about God and the constitution comes off to me as horribly arrogant and pandering.
I didn't start going to church to hear how great America is (since I find the country repulsive, for reasons I've already stated, and even if I didn't I don't live there).

America is the "promised land" shown to Lehi. God led he and his family to this land. If you don't care about this fact...then so be it.
So you may not care that it is this land of America, the land you reject, is the very land Christ is going to dwell on for a thousand years. Other than yourself and perhaps RH, Christ must see something in this land worth living on for so long. And I suppose that for those you knock this country have no interest in dwelling with Christ on such a crappy piece of real estate, right?

Well he ain't there yet, and if I am alive when all that happens then I'll surely be proven wrong.
But the future hasn't happened yet, and the US ain't his home just yet.

I wonder how well I'd get along with Jesus or get on in his system of government... probably not well lol
I don't get along with anyone :))

But he does have many people within various sects living their lives somewhere in the world in such a way that when he does come they will be raised off the earth to greet him. Something to do with wheat and tares. The tares have no interest in Christ nor Zion. The wheat yearn for Christ's return and want very much to dwell with him, and they have great concern for Zion and its welfare. This is all scriptural information if one looks.
God won't look down upon people that at least gave some effort in standing up for freedom. He knows our very thoughts, so no one can fool him in any way. Bad thoughts and intents are known to him no matter how much the guilty try to hide it. These bad thoughts and acts will bite the wicked right on the backside when they least expect it.

Christ will exclaim:

2 Nephi 27:25
25 Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men—

Isa. 29:13
13 ¶Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

2 Ne. 28:31
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save (EXCEPT) their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Too many people listening to precepts of men than reading the scriptures and finding out for themselves what it takes to be on the side of the Lord. Socialism in any form is not Christ's way, not even close.
People that cannot live up to Christ's gospel may find it even more difficult to live the United Order. Why there's enough people on the forum screaming for it.

Perhaps someone will benefit from reading this from Marion G Romney:

Socialism and the United Order Compared
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Elder Marion G. Romney
Of the Council of the Twelve Apostles
(Marion G. Romney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1966, 95;
or Improvement Era, June 1966, 535)

What I am going to give you now is a statement I have prepared in answer to the question, "Is Socialism the United Order?" Some of you may have already heard it. This is the first time I have ever attempted to give a talk a second time. My excuse is that the Brethren have asked me to give this talk here tonight.

I suppose the best way to start a comparison of socialism and the United Order is with a definition of the terms. Webster defines socialism as:

Socialism defined
"A political and economic theory of social organization based on collective or governmental ownership and democratic management of the essential means for the production and distribution of goods; also, a policy or practice based on this theory." (Webster's New International Dictionary, 2nd ed. unabridged, 1951.)
George Bernard Shaw, the noted Fabian Socialist, said that:
"Socialism, reduced to its simplest legal and practical expression, means the complete discarding of the institution of private property by transforming it into public property and the division of the resultant income equally and indiscriminately among the entire population." (Encyclopedia Britannica, 1946 ed., Vol. 20, p. 895.)
George Douglas Howard Cole, M.A., noted author and university reader in economics at Oxford, who treats socialism for the Encyclopedia Britannica, says that because of the shifting sense in which the word has been used, "a short and comprehensive definition is impossible. We can only say," he concludes, "that Socialism is essentially a doctrine and a movement aiming at the collective organization of the community in the interest of the mass of the people by means of the common ownership and collective control of the means of production and exchange." (Ibid., [1946 ed., Vol. 20,] p. 888.)
Socialism arose "out of the economic division in society." During the nineteenth century its growth was accelerated as a protest against "the appalling conditions prevailing in the workshops and factories and the unchristian spirit of the spreading industrial system."

Communism, starting point
The "Communist Manifesto" drafted by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels for the Communist League in 1848 is generally regarded as the starting point of modern socialism. (Ibid., [Encyclopedia Britannica, 1946 ed., Vol. 20,] p. 890.)
The distinction between socialism, as represented by the various Socialist and Labour parties of Europe and the New World, and Communism, as represented by the Russians, is one of tactics and strategy rather than of objective. Communism is indeed only socialism pursued by revolutionary means and making its revolutionary method a canon of faith. Communists, like other socialists, (1) believe in the collective control and ownership of the vital means of production and (2) seek to achieve through state action the coordinated control of the economic forces of society. They (the Communists) differ from other socialists in believing that this control can be secured, and its use in the interests of the workers ensured, only by revolutionary action leading to the dictatorship of the proletariat and the creation of a new proletarian state as the instrument of change. (Ibid.[Encyclopedia Britannica, 1946 ed., Vol. 20, p. 890])

German Socialism
A major rift between so-called orthodox socialism and communist socialism occurred in 1875 when the German Social Democratic party set forth its objective of winning power by taking over control of the bourgeois state, rather than by overthrowing it. In effect, the German Social Democratic party became a parliamentary party, aiming at the assumption of political power by constitutional means.

Fabian Society
In the 1880's a small group of intellectuals set up in England the Fabian Society, which has had a major influence on the development of modern orthodox socialism. Fabianism stands "for the evolutionary conception of socialism . . . endeavoring by progressive reforms and the nationalization of industries, to turn the existing state into a 'welfare state.' " Somewhat on the order of the German Social Democrats, Fabians aim "at permeating the existing parties with socialistic ideas [rather] than at creating a definitely socialistic party." They appeal "to the electorate not as revolutionaries but as constitutional reformers seeking a peaceful transformation of the system." (Ibid.[Encyclopedia Britannica, 1946 ed., Vol. 20, p. 890])

Forms and policies of socialism
The differences in forms and policies of socialism occur principally in the manner in which they seek to implement their theories.
They all advocate:
(1) That private ownership of the vital means of production be abolished and that all such property "pass under some form of co-ordinated public control."
(2) That the power of the state be used to achieve their aims.
(3) "That with a change in the control of industry will go a change in the motives which operate in the industrial system. . . ." (Ibid.[Encyclopedia Britannica, 1946 ed., Vol. 20, p. 890])
So much now for the definition of socialism. I have given you these statements in the words of socialists and scholars, not my words, so they have had their hearing.

The United Order
Now as to the United Order, and here I will give the words of the Lord and not my words. The United Order the Lord's program for eliminating the inequalities among men, is based upon the underlying concept that the earth and all things therein belong to the Lord and that men hold earthly possessions as stewards accountable to God.
On January 2, 1831, the Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith that the Church was under obligation to care for the poor. (See D&C 38.) Later he said:
"I, the Lord, stretched out the heavens, and built the earth, . . . and all things therein are mine.
"And it is my purpose to provide for my saints, for all things are mine.
"But it must needs be done in mine own way. . . ." (D&C 104:14­16.)

Consecration and stewardship
On February 9, 1831, the Lord revealed to the Prophet what his way was. (See D&C 42.) In his way there were two cardinal principles: (1) consecration and (2) stewardship.
To enter the United Order, when it was being tried, one consecrated all his possessions to the Church by a "covenant and a deed which" could not "be broken." (D&C 42:30.) That is, he completely divested himself of all of his property by conveying it to the Church.
Having thus voluntarily divested himself of title to all his property, the consecrator received from the Church a stewardship by a like conveyance. This stewardship could be more or less than his original consecration, the object being to make "every man equal according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs." (D&C 51:3.)
This procedure preserved in every man the right to private ownership and management of his property. At his own option he could alienate it or keep and operate it and pass it on to his heirs.
The intent was, however, for him to so operate his property as to produce a living for himself and his dependents. So long as he remained in the order, he consecrated to the Church the surplus he produced above the needs and wants of his family. This surplus went into a storehouse from which stewardships were given to others and from which the needs of the poor were supplied.
These divine principles are very simple and easily understood. A comparison of them with the underlying principles of socialism reveal similarities and basic differences.

Comparisons and contrasts: Similarities
The following are similarities: Both (1) deal with production and distribution of goods; (2) aim to promote the well-being of men by eliminating their economic inequalities; (3) envision the elimination of the selfish motives in our private capitalistic industrial system.

Differences
Now the differences:
(1) The cornerstone of the United Order is belief in God and acceptance of him as Lord of the earth and the author of the United Order.
Socialism, wholly materialistic, is founded in the wisdom of men and not of God. Although all socialists may not be atheists, none of them in theory or practice seek the Lord to establish his righteousness.
(2) The United Order is implemented by the voluntary free-will actions of men, evidenced by a consecration of all their property to the Church of God.
One time the Prophet Joseph Smith was asked a question by the brethren about the inventories they were taking. His answer was to the effect, "You don't need to be concerned about the inventories. Unless a man is willing to consecrate everything he has he doesn't come into the United Order." (Documentary History of the Church, Vol. 7, pp. 412­13.) On the other hand, socialism is implemented by external force, the power of the state.
(3) In harmony with church belief, as set forth in the Doctrine and Covenants, "that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property" (D&C 134:2), the United Order is operated upon the principle of private ownership and individual management.

God-given agency preserved in United Order
Thus in both implementation and ownership and management of property, the United Order preserves to men their God-given agency, while socialism deprives them of it.
(4) The United Order is nonpolitical. Socialism is political, both in theory and practice. It is thus exposed to, and riddled by, the corruption that plagues and finally destroys all political governments that undertake to abridge man's agency.
(5) A righteous people is a prerequisite to the United Order.
Socialism argues that it as a system will eliminate the evils of the profit motive.
The United Order exalts the poor and humbles the rich. In the process both are sanctified. The poor, released from the bondage and humiliating limitations of poverty, are enabled as free men to rise to their full potential, both temporally and spiritually. The rich, by consecration and by imparting of their surplus for the benefit of the poor, not by constraint but willingly as an act of free will, evidence that charity for their fellowmen characterized by Mormon as "the pure love of Christ." (Moro. 7:47 [Moroni 7:47].)

Socialism not United Order
No, brethren, socialism is not the United Order. However, notwithstanding my abhorrence of it, I am persuaded that socialism is the wave of the present and of the foreseeable future. It has already taken over or is contending for control in most nations.
"At the end of the year [1964] parties affiliated with the [Socialist] International were in control of the governments of Great Britain, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Israel, and the Malagasy Republic. They had representatives in coalition cabinets in Austria, Belgium, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, and Switzerland; constituted the chief opposition in France, India, Japan, the Netherlands, New Zealand and West Germany; and were significant political forces in numerous other countries. Many parties dominant in governments in Africa, Asia, and Latin America announced that their aim was a socialist society." (Encyclopedia Britannica, 1965 Book of the Year, p. 736.)

United States has adopted much socialism
We here in the United States, in converting our government into a social welfare state, have ourselves adopted much of socialism. Specifically, we have to an alarming degree adopted the use of the power of the state in the control and distribution of the fruits of industry. We are on notice, according to the words of the President, that we are going much further, for he is quoted as saying:
"We're going to take all the money we think is unnecessarily being spent and take it from the 'haves' and give it to the 'have nots.' " (1964 Congressional Record, p. 6142, Remarks of the President to a Group of Leaders of Organizations of Senior Citizens in the Fish Room, March 24, 1964.)

Socialism takes: United Order gives
That is the spirit of socialism: We're going to take. The spirit of the United Order is: We're going to give.
We have also gone a long way on he road to public ownership and management of the vital means of production. In both of these areas the free agency of Americans has been greatly abridged. Some argue that we have voluntarily surrendered this power to government. Be this as it may, the fact remains that the loss of freedom with the consent of the enslaved, or even at their request, is nonetheless slavery.
As to the fruits of socialism, we all have our own opinions. I myself have watched its growth in our own country and observed it in operation in many other lands. But I have yet to see or hear of its freeing the hearts of men of selfishness and greed or of its bringing peace, plenty, or freedom. These things it will never bring, nor will it do away with idleness and promote "industry, thrift and self-respect," for it is founded, in theory and in practice, on force, the principle of the evil one.
As to the fruits of the United Order, I suggest you read Moses 7:16­18 and 4 Nephi 2­3 [4 Nephi 1:2­3] , 15­16. If we had time we could review the history, what little we know, of Zion in the days of Enoch and about what happened among the Nephites under those principles of the United Order in the first two centuries following the time of the Savior.

What can we do?
Now what can we do about it?
As I recently reminded my wife of the moratorium on the United Order, which the Lord placed in 1834 (D&C 105:34), that socialism is taking over in the nations and that its expressed aims will surely fail, she spiritedly put to me the question: "Well, then, what would you suggest, that we just sit on our hands in despair and do nothing?" Perhaps similar questions have occurred to you. The answer is, "No, by no means!" We have much to do, and fortunately for us the Lord has definitely prescribed the course we should follow with respect to socialism and the United Order.

Constitution God-inspired
He has told us that in preparation for the restoration of the gospel, he himself established the Constitution of the United States, and he has plainly told us why he established it. I hope I can get this point over to you. He said he established the Constitution to preserve to men their free agency, because the whole gospel of Jesus Christ presupposes man's untrammeled exercise of free agency. Man is in the earth to be tested. The issue as to whether he succeeds or fails will be determined by how he uses his agency. His whole future, through all eternity, is at stake. Abridge man's agency, and the whole purpose of his mortality is thwarted. Without it, the Lord says, there is no existence. (See D&C 93:30.) The Lord so valued our agency that he designed and dictated "the laws and constitution" required to guarantee it. This he explained in the revelation in which he instructed the Prophet Joseph Smith to appeal for help,

Just and holy principles
"According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;
"That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.
"And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose. . . ." (D&C 101:77­78, 80.)

Sustain Constitutional law
Previously he had said:
"And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them.
"And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.
"Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land [the test of its constitutionality in the words of the Lord here is whether it preserves man's agency];
"And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.
"I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law [that is, constitutional law] also maketh you free.
"Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.
"Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil." (D&C 98:4­10.)
These scriptures declare the Constitution to be a divine document. They tell us that "according to just and holy principles," the Constitution and the law of the land which supports the "principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before" God; that, "as pertaining to [the] law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil." They remind us that the Lord has made us free and that laws that are constitutional will also make us free.

"When the wicked rule, the people mourn"
Right at this point, almost as if he were warning us against what is happening today, the Lord said: "Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn." Then, that we might know with certainty what we should do about it, he concluded: "Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold. . . ."
In its context this instruction, according to my interpretation, can only mean that we should seek diligently for and support men to represent us in government who are "wise" enough to understand freedom--as provided for in the Constitution and as implemented in the United Order--and who are honest enough and good enough to fight to preserve it.
". . . under no other government in the world could the Church have been established," said President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., and he continued:
". . . if we are to live as a Church, and progress, and have the right to worship as we are worshipping here today, we must have the great guarantees that are set up by our Constitution. There is no other way in which we can secure these guarantees." (Conference Report, October 1942, pp. 58­59.)
Now, not forgetting our duty to eschew socialism and support the just and holy principles of the Constitution, as directed by the Lord, I shall conclude these remarks with a few comments concerning what we should do about the United Order.

What to do about United Order
The final words of the Lord in suspending the order were: "And let those commandments which I have given concerning Zion and her law be executed and fulfilled, after her redemption." (D&C 105:34.)
Further implementation of the order must therefore await the redemption of Zion. Here Zion means Jackson County, Missouri. When Zion is redeemed, as it most certainly shall be, it will be redeemed under a government and by a people strictly observing those "just and holy principles" of the Constitution that accord to men their God-given moral agency, including the right to private property. If, in the meantime, socialism takes over in America, it will have to be displaced, if need be, by the power of God, because the United Order can never function under socialism or "the welfare state," for the good and sufficient reason that the principles upon which socialism and the United Order are conceived and operated are inimical.
In the meantime, while we await the redemption of Zion and the earth and the establishment of the United Order, we as bearers of the priesthood should live strictly by the principles of the United Order insofar as they are embodied in present church practices, such as the fast offering, tithing, and the welfare activities. Through these practices we could as individuals, if we were of a mind to do so, implement in our own lives all the basic principles of the United Order.
As you will recall, the principles underlying the United Order are consecration and stewardships and then the contribution of surpluses into the bishop's storehouse. When the law of tithing was instituted four years after the United Order experiment was suspended, the Lord required the people to put "all their surplus property . . . into the hands of the bishop" (D&C 119:1); thereafter they were to "pay one-tenth of all their interest annually. . . ." (D&C 119:4.) This law, still in force, implements to a degree at least the United Order principle of stewardships, for it leaves in the hands of each person the ownership and management of the property from which he produces the needs of himself and family. Furthermore, to use again the words of President Clark:
". . . in lieu of residues and surpluses which were accumulated and built up under the United Order, we, today, have our fast offerings, our Welfare donations, and our tithing, all of which may be devoted to the care of the poor, as well as for the carrying on of the activities and business of the Church."
What prohibits us from giving as much in fast offerings as we would have given in surpluses under the United Order? Nothing but our own limitations.
Furthermore, we had under the United Order a bishop's storehouse in which were collected the materials from which to supply the needs and the wants of the poor. We have a bishop's storehouse under the Welfare Plan, used for the same purpose. . . .
"We have now under the Welfare Plan all over the Church, . . . land projects . . . farmed for the benefit of the poor. . . .
"Thus . . . in many of its great essentials, we have, [in] the Welfare Plan . . . the broad essentials of the United Order. Furthermore, having in mind the assistance which is being given from time to time . . . to help set people up in business or in farming, we have a plan which is not essentially unlike that which was in the United Order when the poor were given portions from the common fund."
It is thus apparent that when the principles of tithing and the fast are properly observed and the Welfare Plan gets fully developed and wholly into operation, "we shall not be so very far from carrying out the great fundamentals of the United Order." (Conference Report, October 1942, pp. 57­58.)
The only limitation on you and me is within ourselves.

A Prayer:
And now in line with these remarks, for three things I pray:
(1) That the Lord will somehow quicken our understanding of the differences between socialism and the United Order and give us a vivid awareness of the awful portent of those differences.
(2) That we will develop the understanding, the desire, and the courage, born of the Spirit, to eschew socialism and to support and sustain, in the manner revealed and as interpreted by the Lord, those just and holy principles embodied in the Constitution of the United States for the protection of all flesh, in the exercise of their God-given agency.
(3) That through faithful observance of the principles of tithing, the fast, and the welfare program, we will prepare ourselves to redeem Zion and ultimately live the United Order, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

No one has to read the above, but cannot say church leaders have not spoken against socialism. The mockers and scoffers can deny truth but will find themselves on the dark, sticky, icky and stinky end of the stick at some point. No one can or will escape consequences for wickedness in any form. It's in the book! This includes the wicked gads in government and upwards controlling them, striving to enforce OWO.

The Constitution is God inspired.

[Sirocco]

Question, if things went how you'd want them to go, would people with disability's still receive benefits and the like?

[freedomforall]

Disclaimer: This web site is not an official website of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This site contains talks and quotes of Church leaders and other sources of information on Government and the proper role of government. I am not responsible for the information contained within this website.
SEE: http://runwin.tripod.com/gov.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The U.S. Constitution and Mormonism

Brigham stated;

"How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people." (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 360)

"When the Constitution of the United States hangs, at it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the "Mormon" Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it." (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 361)

"I expect to see the day when the Elders of Israel will protect and sustain civil and religious liberty and every Constitutional right bequeathed to us by our fathers, and spread these rights abroad in connetion with the Gospel for the salvation of all nations. I shall see this whether I live or die. (Discourses of Brigham Young p. 361)

If the previous statements are true, which I believe them to be the word of God spoken by his Prophet, then we are in serious trouble. How can this people, the Elders of Israel, save or restore something they do not understand. School teachers must first understand the principles of Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic BEFORE they can teach it to their students. Saving the Constitution of the United States is no different. The Elders of Israel must understand the true meaning of the Constitution before it is too late to save.

It is my opinion, based upon experience, that most Elders of Israel do not understand the Constitution and the principles of freedom. They do not understand the principles of the Proper Role of Government as taught by the Founding Fathers. We have been taught false idea's and philosophies in school and by the liberal media. Many people within the LDS Church believe that you can not mix politics and religion. Bull! We as members have been taught and warned about socialism and the shift away from the origin meaning of the Constitution as written and understood by the Founding Fathers. I have assembled many, many talks and writings from the Prophets and other members of the General Authorities on the Constitution and the proper role and use of government. We have been taught within the Church but we either have failed to do the research or have fail to believe what has been taught.

This is the reason for this website, to show what is proper government. Also to show that we have been taught and warned about how we are loosing our freedoms. Much of this information will be controversial with many members of the LDS Church but it is none the less true.

The following links, listed below, are to various talks and writings of the Prophets and other General Authorities. There are links to information about the Constitution and the REAL INTENT of the Founding Fathers. The War in Heaven was faught over the *Free Agency Factor* and the battle is still being faught today. Free agency is the greatest gift Heavenly Father has given us and Satan is working day and night to destroy it. The only way Satan can do this is through the improper use of Government.

Only a righteous and informed people can save and restore the Constitution in these last days. Please read and study the information contained within this website and links and then pray about it. I pray that you might gain a strong desire to learn and study the Constitution and live by its correct principles and not the current version we have today, twisted and stretched out of shape. Thomas Jefferson and the others would not recognize our government today, nor would they be pleased with us because we have allowed it to be misused. Today we are in the same situation as Captain Moroni was when he came up with the *Title of Liberty*, today it is called the Constitution of the United States. Let's stand and take up the banner of freedom and fight Satan and his plan, Socialism.

Let's work together to learn about the Constitution so that we can stand up and fight for and in behalf of the Constitution and our freedoms.

UPDATE: There are several organizations that have dedicated themselves to educate people about the Constitution. The newest one is called "Thomas Jefferson Center of Education." Three of the main members of the Board of Trustee are W. Cleon Skousen, Elder Hartman Rector Jr., and Glenn Kimber. Watch for seminars coming in your area.

http://runwin.tripod.com/gov.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[freedomforall]

Proper Role of Government Links http://runwin.tripod.com/gov.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Proper Role of Government ": This is a talk given by Ezra Taft Benson. This is the best talk on the proper role of government. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he is a Prophet of God!
"A Witness And A Warning": A talk given in General Conference by President Ezra Taft Benson.
"Our Divine Constitution": This talk was given by the Prophet Ezra Taft Benson. It tells us exactly what our responsibilities are concerning saving our Constitution!
Resource List: This is a list of excellent books and videos that will teach you about the Proper Role of Goverment and our responsibilities.
Quotes from Church Leaders: This is a list of quotes from Church Leaders on the Constitution and related issues. Very informative.
Other LDS Websites: These are a must!
http://runwin.tripod.com/cstudy.htmlConstitution Home Study Course: Links available at this site. Check it out!
The Constitution - A Glorious Standard: This is a great talk given by President Benson at BYU. It tells us what our responsibilities are concerning this great document. A must read for everyone!
The Constitution: This General Conference address was given by the great Constitutionalist President J. Reuben Clark Jr. This is an excellent talk!

http://runwin.tripod.com/gov.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Robin Hood]

You do realize I'm Canadian, and more then that I live in Canada.
Obamacare and gun control don't effect me, I really don't understand what America is "supposed to be" and it makes little difference if it is or not, I am not going to live there, I don't really like to visit lol.
The whole thing about God and the constitution comes off to me as horribly arrogant and pandering.
I didn't start going to church to hear how great America is (since I find the country repulsive, for reasons I've already stated, and even if I didn't I don't live there).

America is the "promised land" shown to Lehi, not Canada, not the UK and not Asia. God led he and his family to this land, the land of promise. If you don't care about this fact...then so be it.
So you may not care that it is this land of America, the land you reject, is the very land Christ is going to dwell on for a thousand years. Other than yourself and perhaps RH, Christ must see something in this land worth sojourning on for so long. And I suppose that for those you knock this country have no interest in dwelling with Christ on such a crappy piece of real estate, right?

I think you'll find Canada is in North America, and it's bigger than the US. ;)

[Robin Hood]

This comment:

What complete and utter nonsense!

And this one:

If the shoe fits!

Are both partially correct. The brethren have repeatedly counseled us to be fiscally responsible and select political leaders who will do the best job our individual freedoms and liberties while still needing us, each and every one, to be responsible. The leaders who spoke so strongly about communism and socialism spoke correctly against a system of government that exerted control of every aspect of life. The communism of the USSR and the Far East have been politically communist (No higher power than the Party) and economically socialist (we all work for the government equally, make the same pay, work the same hours, eat the same food, blah, blah, blah) which is a bunch of crap. It's a political entity trying to live a false form of Zion.

As Americans we have seen things in black and white. We're slaves to he state (which is how we viewed China and USSR) or we're free market capitalists. Even with the latter, we're allowing the government to have control over most really big things: Defense (I'll agree with that one) Highways, Transportation (FAA, D.O.T.) and with the Depression we began to REALLY get some small socialist programs: CCC, WPA, and the Brontosaurus in the port-a-potty, Soc. Security. The Sixties ushered in LBJ's War on Poverty, which amounted to destroying inner cities so the government could provide for them and thus control them. THAT is the Socialism I believe we were warned about, but it happened anyway.

For many years we heard complaints about Britain's and Canada's gov't-run healthcare, and we did see some people coming here for medical treatment. They have really turned things around from what I've heard from friends in Canada and the U.K. I still hear some dissatisfaction with Canada, but I don't personally know anyone in the U.K. who has complaints about NHS. While we in the US see it as socialized medicine, it's not anywhere near the type of socialism President Benson warned us about. Moreover, it's what they chose, so either it'll work or they will fix it. The ACA is FAR more like socialism for a couple of reasons: 1) It was passed against a CLEAR MAJORITY OF PEOPLE OPPOSING IT. The Dingbats in Boston and the queens in San Fran all bent over to welcome this destruction of our freedom, but I haven't read of one state who wasn't even or vastly opposed to it and yet it was done. 2) this makes all of our CONFIDENTIAL records property of the government. This was clearly done by a power drunk tyranny oozing filth every which way they can.

Thank you skmo.
At last someone who speaks sense on this issue.
I think I now understand the difference between our healthcare system and Obamacare.

[Sirocco]

You do realize I'm Canadian, and more then that I live in Canada.
Obamacare and gun control don't effect me, I really don't understand what America is "supposed to be" and it makes little difference if it is or not, I am not going to live there, I don't really like to visit lol.
The whole thing about God and the constitution comes off to me as horribly arrogant and pandering.
I didn't start going to church to hear how great America is (since I find the country repulsive, for reasons I've already stated, and even if I didn't I don't live there).

America is the "promised land" shown to Lehi, not Canada, not the UK and not Asia. God led he and his family to this land, the land of promise. If you don't care about this fact...then so be it.
So you may not care that it is this land of America, the land you reject, is the very land Christ is going to dwell on for a thousand years. Other than yourself and perhaps RH, Christ must see something in this land worth sojourning on for so long. And I suppose that for those you knock this country have no interest in dwelling with Christ on such a crappy piece of real estate, right?

I think you'll find Canada is in North America, and it's bigger than the US. ;)

You think the Nephites had the exact same boarder that the US and Canada (eventually) would have?
How would they know, why would they care?

"Oooh can't go up there, that's eventually gonna be Windsor, Ontario!"

[light-one]

LDSmissionaries.com said this:

http://ldsmissionaries.com/what-will-ha ... god-video/

[freedomforall]

"The Covenant" Tim Ballard on GBTV w/ Glenn Beck

[Robin Hood]

What many Americans fail to understand in my view is that just because God said he would bless the nation (so long as it was a righteous one) etc, that does not mean he curses or witholds his blessing from others.

The so called "covenant" that Ballard discusses is available to individuals and nations everywhere. God is no respecter of persons.
America is a promised land to whom? To Americans of course!
It isn't my promised land and neither should it be. I have one of my own.

Like I said, God is no respecter of persons. President Gordon B. Hinckley understood this very well, which might explain why he was such an Anglophile. ;)

[Sirocco]

What many Americans fail to understand in my view is that just because God said he would bless the nation (so long as it was a righteous one) etc, that does not mean he curses or witholds his blessing from others.

The so called "covenant" that Ballard discusses is available to individuals and nations everywhere. God is no respecter of persons.
America is a promised land to whom? To Americans of course!
It isn't my promised land and neither should it be. I have one of my own.

Like I said, God is no respecter of persons. President Gordon B. Hinckley understood this very well, which might explain why he was such an Anglophile. ;)

Americans have this bizarre need to say they are the greatest and find ways to support their odd thought and then wonder why people don't like them.

[Robin Hood]

What many Americans fail to understand in my view is that just because God said he would bless the nation (so long as it was a righteous one) etc, that does not mean he curses or witholds his blessing from others.

The so called "covenant" that Ballard discusses is available to individuals and nations everywhere. God is no respecter of persons.
America is a promised land to whom? To Americans of course!
It isn't my promised land and neither should it be. I have one of my own.

Like I said, God is no respecter of persons. President Gordon B. Hinckley understood this very well, which might explain why he was such an Anglophile. ;)

Americans have this bizarre need to say they are the greatest and find ways to support their odd thought and then wonder why people don't like them.

As President Hinckley once said, "No nation is without it's beauty, no people without their virtue".
He was right. This even applies to America.... but is not exclusive to it.

[larsenb]

What many Americans fail to understand in my view is that just because God said he would bless the nation (so long as it was a righteous one) etc, that does not mean he curses or witholds his blessing from others.

The so called "covenant" that Ballard discusses is available to individuals and nations everywhere. God is no respecter of persons.
America is a promised land to whom? To Americans of course!
It isn't my promised land and neither should it be. I have one of my own.

Like I said, God is no respecter of persons. President Gordon B. Hinckley understood this very well, which might explain why he was such an Anglophile. ;)

Americans have this bizarre need to say they are the greatest and find ways to support their odd thought and then wonder why people don't like them.

Yes this is subsumed under the phenomenon and delusion of American Exceptionalism. This only has a justifiable basis when we follow the principles of Constitution/freedom and general righteousness.

Conducting pre-emptive warfare in foreign lands is itself, enough to knock us out of being exceptional, a beacon on a hill, as it were.

[buffalo_girl]

Doctrine & Covenants 133
19 Wherefore, prepare ye for the coming of the Bridegroom; go ye, go ye out to meet him.

20 For behold, he shall stand upon the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion.

21 And he shall utter his voice out of Zion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people;

22 And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.

23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;

24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... 3?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ephesians 2
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/eph/2.19?lang=eng#18" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe, we should practice being 'fellow citizens of the household of God'. We don't know all the mind and will of the Lord in every 'jot & tittle', but we do know He wants us to be united as Saints. That is a challenge we need to surmount in order to be worthy of the greater work before us.

As far as I can tell we are ALL Hebrew slaves carried off into Babylon to do the best we can to righteously influence those who are - in very deed - our 'worldly masters' in order to bring about the greater good, as well as to TESTIFY - through the Power of the Priesthood - of the reality of Christ.

Doctrine & Covenants 133
57 And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity—

58 To prepare the weak for those things which are coming on the earth, and for the Lord’s errand in the day when the weak shall confound the wise, and the little one become a strong nation, and two shall put their tens of thousands to flight.

59 And by the weak things of the earth the Lord shall thresh the nations by the power of his Spirit.