What non-Americans fail to realize about the Promised Land

[Robin Hood]

And I have stated before that you guys have got to stop being so provincial.
This is a world-wide church that has more non-American members, where the main language spoken (by majority of members) is soon to be Spanish, and where the only real growth is taking place in Africa and Asia.

Talk of the US constitution etc is not going to win converts in these places, nor, frankly, interest them.

[freedomforall]

The only way a person can be blinded to the freedoms that the constitution offers is if they are a devil worshiper. After all, that is precisely what the constitution guards against.

Lots of people love and respect Lucifer's plan. A third right off the bat and another large group that chose Jesus' plan while secretly trying to fool God and hedge their bets. Even today, in the U.S., nearly half of the population prefer outright communism, socialism, or democracy, to freedom.

Of course there are the half wits that are unaware and uninformed because they are too lazy to find the truth for themselves. A person has to be pretty stupid to NOT want the freedoms the constitution offers.

You can lead a soul to Eternal Life, but you can't make him see the advantages of it.

The LDS Church is far too lenient as to who they allow in the Temples. One of the questions should be: "Do you believe in socialism as Lucifer presented it or freedom as Jesus presented it?"

There is, but many people either don't know what the question infers or, perhaps, they don't want to tell the whole truth at their interview. As a side note, why are there lockers with keys in the temple? Thieves don't attend the temple, do they?

Here it is:

6. Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?

1) what kind of group?
2) what type of teachings and practices?
3) knowing what the Lord teaches and making an intelligent choice as to which side one is on.
4) condoning, helping in promoting or even espousing precepts advocated by those with evil designs.

This is why we have been told to read scriptures and read and befriend the Constitution.

David O MCKay said:

Latter-day Saints should have nothing to do with secret combinations and groups antagonistic to the Constitutional law of the land….
Next to being one in worshiping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States. (October 1939, General Conference)


Are members of the church united in obeying this counsel?

[freedomforall]

And I have stated before that you guys have got to stop being so provincial.
This is a world-wide church that has more non-American members, where the main language spoken (by majority of members) is soon to be Spanish, and where the only real growth is taking place in Africa and Asia.

Talk of the US constitution etc is not going to win converts in these places, nor, frankly, interest them.

Let's put it this way, you have the same temple interview questions that Americans have to answer. So can saints in England, who are a part of the Gentiles, avoid knowing good from evil and what side one they are on?

You also read the very same scriptures declared as official church doctrine. Let's see what God has to say:

16 Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

From this we see that God expects all saints to answer temple recommend questions with honest answers based on them knowing the difference between what they think or assume is right and what is wrong in the truest sense. Freedom and socialism is a choice for every individual.

Does God allow people into his kingdom who don't step up for eschewing socialism wherever it is found? Me, I want to dwell with Christ, in this land, under his laws which are freedom and liberty, the same government in which will be on his shoulders while he reigns.

The Contitution Will Be Saved - But Not In Washington

What are the Times of the Gentiles and who are they? Also, want to know how to survive upcoming destruction?

[lundbaek]

Fortunately, there is a small % of Church members who appreciate and espouse the principles of the US Constitution. We have a few here in Arizona who are active in the John Birch Society, the local tea party, and something called Constitution in the Classroom (CitC), which is training people to teach kids in charter schools and private schools about the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

[Robin Hood]

Freedomforall,
I'm afraid you and I will not agree on this.
You might be a Gentile my friend, but I'm not.
Zion is the pure in heart, not America. I have no intention of fighting against the pure in heart (or America come to think of it).

TR question 6 is an interesting one.
I'm pretty sure the John Birch Society would qualify. If anyone came to me for a TR and they were an active member of the JBS I would certainly hesitate in giving them a recommend; and I would refuse a recommend to a member who supports the British National Party, or was a member of the English Defence League.

As for the quote from Pres. McKay, context is everything. He was clearly addressing his remarks to an American audience.
We have GA's come over here and tell us how great the British constitution is, and that we should be loyal to it, and to the government of the land, and to the monarchy. They tell us how choice and blessed the UK is, how it's teeming with the rich blood of Israel, how we have given the world the rule of law, democracy, the Bible, etc., and how God has a special place in his heart for the tough old Brits. They tell us how, when the church was on it's knees and the adversary was prevailing, the Lord sent for the British to rescue the church. I kid you not, this is what we are regularly told by visiting Apostles and other GA's.
I'm quite sure they say the same or similar things to Australians, Germans, Tongans and so on. So with regard to Pres. McKay's comments, like I said, context is everything.

In my view we need to think globally and quit being so provincial. Remember, many will come from the east and from west, while the children of the covenant will be cast into outer darkness.

[samizdat]

I wonder what might be different today if local leaders, especially bishops and stake presidents in the United States had followed up a lot better in support of the words of Presidents McKay, Clark, Romney and Benson to members of the Church about what we could do to prevent the destruction of America.

I think if they kept up with that US obsessiveness the church would not be nearly as worldwide as it is today.

You can keep on quoting David O McKay's talks or Ezra Taft Benson's talks in General Conference and you can keep on whining about how today's leaders don't want to do what President McKay and Benson did.

They did so when the Church was largely American (and in the case of David O McKay) the only stakes in the entire world were English speaking. Even when President Benson gave his talk on the Constitution in 1987 the Church was still roughly 60 percent American.

That number is now 42 percent and now continues to shrink.

[LukeAir2008]

Freedomforall,
I'm afraid you and I will not agree on this.
You might be a Gentile my friend, but I'm not.
Zion is the pure in heart, not America. I have no intention of fighting against the pure in heart (or America come to think of it).

TR question 6 is an interesting one.
I'm pretty sure the John Birch Society would qualify. If anyone came to me for a TR and they were an active member of the JBS I would certainly hesitate in giving them a recommend; and I would refuse a recommend to a member who supports the British National Party, or was a member of the English Defence League.

As for the quote from Pres. McKay, context is everything. He was clearly addressing his remarks to an American audience.
We have GA's come over here and tell us how great the British constitution is, and that we should be loyal to it, and to the government of the land, and to the monarchy. They tell us how choice and blessed the UK is, how it's teeming with the rich blood of Israel, how we have given the world the rule of law, democracy, the Bible, etc., and how God has a special place in his heart for the tough old Brits. They tell us how, when the church was on it's knees and the adversary was prevailing, the Lord sent for the British to rescue the church. I kid you not, this is what we are regularly told by visiting Apostles and other GA's.
I'm quite sure they say the same or similar things to Australians, Germans, Tongans and so on. So with regard to Pres. McKay's comments, like I said, context is everything.

In my view we need to think globally and quit being so provincial. Remember, many will come from the east and from west, while the children of the covenant will be cast into outer darkness.

Robbing Hood,

The last Englishman to start a Witch Hunt againt those whom he imagined to be apostates ended up taking President Thomas S Monson to court and tried to sue him.

President Benson was a member of the John Birch Society. I guess that makes you the apostate.

[Robin Hood]

President Benson was a member of the John Birch Society.

I know; talk about embarrassing!
Apparently also had a load of white supremacist literature in his personal library.
But in his defence, he did have dementia.

[lundbaek]

President Benson did not have dementia when, speaking as the Prophet, he told us "We must learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers." Nor when the Church published his ""The Constitution - A Heavenly Banner".

If he did have white supremacist literature in his personal library I'm sure it was for the same reason that he had and read "The Communist Manifesto", to know our enemy.

[Robin Hood]

If he did have white supremacist literature in his personal library I'm sure it was for the same reason that he had and read "The Communist Manifesto", to know our enemy.

I'll go along with that.

[Desert Roses]

President Benson was a member of the John Birch Society. I guess that makes you the apostate.

Popular misconception---NOT TRUE. His son, Reed Benson, was a member, and he supported some of the political views of the JBS, but take it from a gal who grew up with parents in JBS from 1960 through 1980, Benson was NOT JBS member. Believe me, if he'd have been, I'd have heard about it! In fact, I was told many times that because of his position in the church, then-Elder Benson couldn't join the JBS (neutrality of the GAs and all that).

[Robin Hood]

President Benson was a member of the John Birch Society. I guess that makes you the apostate.

Popular misconception---NOT TRUE. His son, Reed Benson, was a member, and he supported some of the political views of the JBS, but take it from a gal who grew up with parents in JBS from 1960 through 1980, Benson was NOT JBS member. Believe me, if he'd have been, I'd have heard about it! In fact, I was told many times that because of his position in the church, then-Elder Benson couldn't join the JBS (neutrality of the GAs and all that).

How odd that Pres. David O. McKay would censure him for JBS membership if he wasn't a member.
Having said that, I got the JBS info from D. Michael Quinn, so.......... :-\

[freedomforall]

Fortunately, there is a small % of Church members who appreciate and espouse the principles of the US Constitution. We have a few here in Arizona who are active in the John Birch Society, the local tea party, and something called Constitution in the Classroom (CitC), which is training people to teach kids in charter schools and private schools about the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

Great, Lundbaek. In the video above ETB says it will be enlightened saints that will step forward. The key is to get people enlightened, then strongly interested, then determined to action, those who finally see the gads above us and are willing to step up and do something. I think Ammon Bundy is an example of such action as to fighting government crap...land grabbing tactics, and forcing rural dwellers to move into crowded towns where they can be watched and controlled.

[freedomforall]

You might be a Gentile my friend, but I'm not.
Zion is the pure in heart, not America. I have no intention of fighting against the pure in heart (or America come to think of it).

TR question 6 is an interesting one.

As for being a Gentile, you have a point. For Gentiles that accept the gospel and convert to the Lord's church, they then become adopted into the House of Israel. After all, Jesus is Jewish, right. Thus his followers and sheep are the house of Israel. In that light, I am no longer a Gentile either.

True, Zion is the pure in heart, nonetheless, Zion is also a future place called The New Jerusalem. It will be right here in this country, not in England, South America, Asia or Australia...right here. And for anyone not taking interest in where the Savior is going to be during his reign, well, how can it go well with them.

Zion is the pure in heart, coupled with those awaiting to live in Zion with Jesus. It's all inclusive. People have to be just as humble, just as meek, just as lowly in heart, just as loving as well as all the rest of the attributes of Christ...in order to be able to live near him. This...is Zion.

Old Jerusalem is another topic of profound interest.

[Vision]

And I have stated before that you guys have got to stop being so provincial.
This is a world-wide church that has more non-American members, where the main language spoken (by majority of members) is soon to be Spanish, and where the only real growth is taking place in Africa and Asia.

Talk of the US constitution etc is not going to win converts in these places, nor, frankly, interest them.

Robin the symbolism of a round earth with no sides is a hard concept for some.

[Robin Hood]

And I have stated before that you guys have got to stop being so provincial.
This is a world-wide church that has more non-American members, where the main language spoken (by majority of members) is soon to be Spanish, and where the only real growth is taking place in Africa and Asia.

Talk of the US constitution etc is not going to win converts in these places, nor, frankly, interest them.

Robin the symbolism of a round earth with no sides is a hard concept for some.

The world isn't round. You Americans are so two dimensional ;)
It's a sphere, and not a perfect one at that.

[Vision]

And I have stated before that you guys have got to stop being so provincial.
This is a world-wide church that has more non-American members, where the main language spoken (by majority of members) is soon to be Spanish, and where the only real growth is taking place in Africa and Asia.

Talk of the US constitution etc is not going to win converts in these places, nor, frankly, interest them.

Robin the symbolism of a round earth with no sides is a hard concept for some.

The world isn't round. You Americans are so two dimensional ;)
It's a sphere, and not a perfect one at that.

Yes Robin I know it's spherical, but you get my point.

[buffalo_girl]

Good grief! Any and all who argue their particular cultural/political perspective as superior to Christ's plan for us, are provincial.

Is it possible to get beyond this?

Doctrine & Covenants 133
24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.
25 And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh.

Don't we each long for freedom from all the various forms of SLAVERY imposed upon us by the great & abominable church - in whatever place we live?

[light-one]

You can keep on quoting David O McKay's talks or Ezra Taft Benson's talks in General Conference and you can keep on whining about how today's leaders don't want to do what President McKay and Benson did.

They did so when the Church was largely American (and in the case of David O McKay) the only stakes in the entire world were English speaking. Even when President Benson gave his talk on the Constitution in 1987 the Church was still roughly 60 percent American.

That number is now 42 percent and now continues to shrink.

http://travel.state.gov/content/passpor ... rning.html

[lundbaek]

I believe previous latter-day prophets like Presidents McKay, Clark, Romney, and Benson spoke as they did about the importance of freedom and the US Constitution and gave us instructions on things to do to protect them for very good reasons. And they explained their reasons. It's just that most American Latter-day Saint's didn't listen, and many spoke ill of those men for saying the things they did. I was around during those times and there was still the hope and possibility of turning about from our course into socialism and globalism. Lots of members of the Church in other countries heard and/or read those admonitions, and in my 11 years in Europe and the UK I only heard one member complain about America and its government.

Unfortunately, the American Latter-day Saints generally failed to turn about and today the "murderous combinations" that the Lord warned us about thru Moroni did get above us and have us now in a position such that if the prophets since President Benson had tried or were now to try to unite the American members in an effort to restore the principles of the Constitution, the latter-day gadiantons would come down on the Church and all hell would come with them. They would severely disrupt the Church's missionary and building programs, among other harassments.

IMO, the best we can do now is to help younger people learn what the Lord wanted us to learn all along and help prepare that "remnant" that will restore government on this land to its proper role after the "cleansing". I don't think it will happen before then.

[samizdat]

(CinemaSins voice) American government hater uses American government website to say Mexico sucks.

That's on the other side of the country from where I live.

The promised land of Zion is all the continent not just one nation. President Hinckley said so as he dedicated the Santiago Chile temple. The United States just happens to be the center stake.

[freedomforall]

And I have stated before that you guys have got to stop being so provincial.
This is a world-wide church that has more non-American members, where the main language spoken (by majority of members) is soon to be Spanish, and where the only real growth is taking place in Africa and Asia.

Talk of the US constitution etc is not going to win converts in these places, nor, frankly, interest them.

Robin the symbolism of a round earth with no sides is a hard concept for some.

The world isn't round. You Americans are so two dimensional ;)
It's a sphere, and not a perfect one at that.

Well, almost all Americans. I know the highest point on earth, the highest part of earth reaching into the atmosphere is not MT Everest. The closet point on earth, closest to the stars is the peak of Mount Chimborazo, in the Andes. How? Because the earth is not round, it is oblate.

According to Issac Newton, the centrifugal force of the Earth's spin will result in a slight flattening at the poles and bulging at the equator, which would make the planet slightly oblate. Mathematicians call this an "oblate spheroid," which means that anyone on the equator is already standing "higher," or closer to outer space, than people who aren't on the bulge. http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/20 ... boraz.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So I don't know who the "you Americans" are.

[freedomforall]

:-BD

Good grief! Any and all who argue their particular cultural/political perspective as superior to Christ's plan for us, are provincial.

Is it possible to get beyond this?

Doctrine & Covenants 133
24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.
25 And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh.

Don't we each long for freedom from all the various forms of SLAVERY imposed upon us by the great & abominable church - in whatever place we live?

:-BD

[larsenb]

During the 57 years that I've been a member of the Church Presidents McKay, Clark, Romney and Benson especially said much to members of the Church about what we could do to prevent the destruction of America. Most of their words that I remember were to members of the Church everywhere, not just in the United States. What might be different today if all or nearly all Latter-day Saints took those words to heart and acted on them ?

Why?
I am not concerned about the destruction of America any more than I am concerned about the destruction of Australia, or Iceland, or Belgium etc. Now don't get me wrong, I would be concerned about the destruction of any nation, but not especially America at the expense of any other.
Of course America has a special place in your heart, and so it should. But it absolutely doesn't in mine, and neither should it.

I think I might feel differently if you guys stopped pouting, trying to prove a point all the time that no one else cares about.
So I've come up with a suitable remedy:
1. Learn to play Cricket
2. Adopt £Sterling
3. Restore proper spelling (put the "u" back)
4. Queen as head of state (no more Obama's, Clinton's etc)
5. Pay all your back taxes (no more throwing tea around)
6. Drive on the left

Sensible policies for a happier America. You know it makes sense. ;)
And if you feel a little apprehensive about this brave new world, we'll have a word with Canada and see if we can persuade them to admit you as a new Province. ;) ;) ;)

You forgot: 7. Replace stop signs with Yield Signs, and put Round-abouts at most intersections. I drove all over South and Central England a year and a half ago for a week and had my eyes opened wide to the sensibility of the English driving/road system. The Brits have this nailed folks, hands-down.

[lundbaek]

I understand the UK is going to switch from driving on the left side of the road to the right side in January 2017. All cars will make the change midnight 31 Dec - 1 Jan and trucks and busses 2 weeks later.