What if the Church went politically left?

[lundbaek]

I'm sorry I have no way I know of to get to my original sources for these stories. I never expected the subject would come up again. I only remember that Elder Marlin Jensen was sent to the meeting of legislators to plead the case for in-state tuition for illegal immigrants.

I'm still looking. Check this out: http://www.anamericandreamrevealed.com/ ... itics.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oops. I also found this:

I've read that the church recently sent Marlin Jensen of the Quorum of seventy to the Utah legislature, asking lawmakers to consider the human costs of new proposed new anti illegal immigrant legislation. The new laws would take away illegals drivers licenses, and would repeal the in-state college tuition for children of illegals.
*******************************************

LDS Church asks lawmakers to weigh morality, ethics in immigration reforms
By Matthew D. LaPlante
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 02/14/2008 07:18:11 AM MST

A prominent leader from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has implored Utah's overwhelmingly Mormon Legislature to "slow down, step back and carefully study and assess the implications and human costs involved" in a slew of immigration bills they are considering on Capitol Hill.

Marlin Jensen, a member of the LDS Church's Quorum of Seventy, told a modest crowd at the Wednesday evening opening reception of Westminster College's "Beyond Borders and Fronteras" colloquy that "with decisions hanging in the balance that have such significant consequences, I believe a more thoughtful . . . not to mention humane, approach is warranted."
Immigration has emerged as a key issue during the legislative session that began Jan. 21, with lawmakers considering a litany of bills that would limit significant privileges and impose extensive penalties for the state's undocumented immigrants.

But, Jensen said, "immigration questions are questions dealing with God's children," and legislators should "measure twice before they cut."

His comments expounded publicly on the private pleas of church leaders last month for Legislators to act with compassion as they consider immigration reform.

While repeating the mantra that the LDS church generally takes no position on political issues, Jensen noted that immigration was not strictly a political issue but a moral and ethical one. And as such, he said, he was not simply speaking for himself or even for the Quorum, a group of Mormon leaders who act as church emissaries.

"I was assigned to come here by the First Presidency of the church," he said, referring to the church's three most senior leaders, including LDS Church President Thomas S. Monson.

[captainfearnot]

You know captainfearnot, I don't think it's proper at all that you would suggest such a sickening and horrible thing as that.
dc

Well, no one ever wants to talk about the Trolley Problem with me.

It was actually MormonPatriot's signature line that got me thinking. ("MORMON FIST [sic], PATRIOT SECOND") What if to be a faithful Mormon meant abandoning what it means to you to be a patriot, would you really be a Mormon first?

We might construct the same hypothetical with a less realistic scenario. Suppose all the general authorities and officers of the church became vegetarian, except two. The church still maintains an official neutral position on the issue, but whenever they have a chance to offer their opinions they make it clear that they think that vegetarianism is the way to go and in line with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Do you: a.) follow their lead and become vegetarian yourself, because these men are in tune with God and know what they're talking about, even if it's best for the church not to make it an official position, b.) maintain your omnivore status because technically the church is still neutral and there's still two omnivore GAs so it must be okay, or c.) interpret this development as a sign that the church is slouching toward apostasy because omnivorousness is one of those true eternal principles that cannot be compromised?

[David13]

I suppose I'd gnash my teeth and remain in the Church in the first scenario, Mormon first. But I'd still remain true to my colors.
In the second, I'd remain carnivore.
I believe in following the prophet, but not into vegetarianism. That is definitely slippery ground, nigh onto apostasy.
dc

This is all speculative, you know. What if ...
The old saying is What If my grandmother had wings, ...
(The implication being ... could she then fly?)

[skmo]

Suppose all the general authorities and officers of the church became vegetarian, except two. The church still maintains an official neutral position on the issue, but whenever they have a chance to offer their opinions they make it clear that they think that vegetarianism is the way to go and in line with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Do you: a.) follow their lead and become vegetarian yourself, because these men are in tune with God and know what they're talking about, even if it's best for the church not to make it an official position, b.) maintain your omnivore status because technically the church is still neutral and there's still two omnivore GAs so it must be okay, or c.) interpret this development as a sign that the church is slouching toward apostasy because omnivorousness is one of those true eternal principles that cannot be compromised?

If God Himself comes to me and tells me it's a commandment to not eat meat, I'll obey. If the prophet stands up and announces that it's a commandment to not eat meat, I'll obey. Your scenario above means nothing to me because I don't follow examples, I follow commandments and learn my own way to not stub my toe or deal with the pain of a stubbed toe. The list of church leaders I've personally told were wrong runs from a mission companion to a member of the Seventy. Your title earns my respect, but I'm still going to be true to myself and be honest with you.

[Ezra]

Mostly for the benefit of Robin Hood, who seems to think I am oblivious to the fact that the Church exists in countries other than the USA, I'll say this again. I have lived and worked and been active in church in Germany, England, Italy, Denmark, and Switzerland, and for about 11 years total. I believe most members in those countries have been indoctrinated to favor federal dominance and federal welfare and regulation. However, while there I found there were a few members, (including three bishops, it that matters) who seemed to understand and expressed to me their appreciation of the US Constitution and the kind of government it was intended to provide. Two of my Danish associates were active in the political arena in support of what we would call conservative legislation and programs.

Really....... "federal"?
I guarantee you never heard that word in England.

Conservatives in Denmark would be well to the left of the US Democrats.
I don't know anyone who gives the US constitution even a passing thought.... ever.

Do you give you any thought to who's side your on in the battle of heaven that still rages on now in this life?

If not do you think that by ignoring it you will some how be listed as being on the lords side?
Or do you think that the (test) we are here for somehow doesn't include one of the very first question. Who will you serve when I take away your memory with the veil?

Without understanding the principles of liberty that God gave us as a guide in the constitution that he claimed authorship of in D&c 101. The same type of government system that mosiah set up in his day. Mosiah 29.
The gadiantons destroyed it in 225 years. That message and warning is So important was that 2/3 of the Book of Mormon covered only that 225 years. And Mormon even commands us to awake to our awful situation today because of the same reasons.
The other 1/3 of the Bom covers a 3000 year period. And part of that also covers how the Jarodites were also destroyed by the gadiantons.

Without knowing those principles how can you expect to be one the lords side? How can you expect not to have eternal consequences when to be on the wrong side in heaven meant eternal damnation.

Ezra Taft benson in his book an enemy hath done this pointed out that the majority of those cast out where fence sitters. Neither hot nor cold. And is why there were so bitter at being cast out. They didn't choose satans side they just didn't choose the lords.

Now in this life the same is happening. Fence sitters. Neither hot nor cold. Many called few chosen. D&c 121: 33-40
Vs 38 says err they are aware they are left to kick against the pricks persecute the saints and fight against God.

God says the majority of lds fight against him.

And I know that's because they choose to sit the fence. Or unwittingly choose satans side in this life to use the force of government to put there fellow men into bondage of taxation and welfare that we have been warned about by scripture and prophets.

[gnolaum]

The thread on Oaks moving to the left has got me thinking. What if the LDS Church did move to the left, politically? What if, instead of just a handful of token Democrats in the leadership, there were only a handful of token Republicans? What would be your response?

Would you move to the left along with the church? In other words, if you are first and foremost a believing Mormon, and you're only politically conservative because that's where the church seems to lean, then if it changed its leaning it would make sense to change yours along with it.

Would you maintain your religious beliefs and your right-leaning politics? In that case, you would adopt a similar position as LDS Democrats today. You believe LDS doctrine, but you also take its stated political neutrality seriously and exercise independence from the church's leanings in political matters. Those few token leaders who go against the political grain would be your primary examples to follow in that regard.

Or, would you consider the church to be in apostasy if it began to skew left? in other words, you are first and foremost a conservative, and only consider Mormonism to be true so long as it is based on those same fundamental, eternal principles. There can be no such thing as a true church that is politically liberal, so that would be a sure sign that it is in apostasy, and time to find a new church.

First, the left/right paradigm is false. Both political parties are funded and controlled by the same Gadiantons. We have been warned ad infinitum about our awful situation so I won't go into that.

Second, the church is neither left nor right. Again, the paradigm only exists in the minds of the deceived public. There is only right and wrong, the Lord's way and not the Lord's way. So your question of "Would you move to the left along with the church?" has no meaning.

Lastly, if the point of your original post (and I am only guessing here) is to ask about blind loyalty to the Church, I would, as should all members, 1) examine the words of Christ of which we have a solid testimony and determine if the "leanings" of the Church are in harmony and 2) ASK for and RECEIVE an answer through the Holy Ghost. Then act accordingly.

If your original post is really trying to examine the forum member's political slant in light of some mistaken idea that the Church currently leans right or left, again the question is meaningless for multiple reasons. Church members (forum members here include Gadianton shills and common enemies of the Church and for the most part, as a group, are worthless to examine in light of the Church as a whole) may tend to align themselves with a right or left paradigm but that is either incidental or because they are deceived into believing the right/left paradigm. Even the elect will be deceived.

[gnolaum]

There is a diversity of political thought in the Church. Such is to be treasured, not to be spurned.

The Lord disagrees: D&C 38:27 - "I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine."

[captainfearnot]

Lastly, if the point of your original post (and I am only guessing here) is to ask about blind loyalty to the Church, I would, as should all members, 1) examine the words of Christ of which we have a solid testimony and determine if the "leanings" of the Church are in harmony and 2) ASK for and RECEIVE an answer through the Holy Ghost. Then act accordingly.

That's pretty close to my intent, although I wouldn't call it blind loyalty. More like, is the church your moral compass, against which all other things are judged? Or is your moral compass something else, somewhere else, and the church (and everything else) is judged against that?

I have Christian friends who don't believe in one true church the way most Mormons do. They have their preferred denomination(s), but they don't believe they are putting their salvation in jeopardy by joining a different church within that denomination or even switching to another one. Their approach is to find a church within all the "valid" Christian options which best reflects their own personal beliefs, values, interpretation of scripture, etc. If one church starts to focus too much on something they don't agree with, or not enough on something they consider to be important, they can go find another one.

But in Mormonism we don't do that, we just have the one church that is supposed to be True with a capital T. If this church starts to focus heavily in a certain area, it's supposed to be because God wants us to be focused there. But I think a lot of us are a lot like my Christian friends, we judge the church by how well it measures against our own standards, not the other way around.

(Clearly, the leadership of the church wants the members to fall in line with them, and judge themselves by the church's standards on all things. Of course, that's not necessarily the same as God wanting us to do that.)

My second intent is to ask all the LDS Republicans who think that Mormons should not be Democrats to consider what they would do if the status quo with regard to the R-D divide in the church (in the USA) were reversed.

[Robin Hood]

Mostly for the benefit of Robin Hood, who seems to think I am oblivious to the fact that the Church exists in countries other than the USA, I'll say this again. I have lived and worked and been active in church in Germany, England, Italy, Denmark, and Switzerland, and for about 11 years total. I believe most members in those countries have been indoctrinated to favor federal dominance and federal welfare and regulation. However, while there I found there were a few members, (including three bishops, it that matters) who seemed to understand and expressed to me their appreciation of the US Constitution and the kind of government it was intended to provide. Two of my Danish associates were active in the political arena in support of what we would call conservative legislation and programs.

Really....... "federal"?
I guarantee you never heard that word in England.

Conservatives in Denmark would be well to the left of the US Democrats.
I don't know anyone who gives the US constitution even a passing thought.... ever.

Do you give you any thought to who's side your on in the battle of heaven that still rages on now in this life?

If not do you think that by ignoring it you will some how be listed as being on the lords side?
Or do you think that the (test) we are here for somehow doesn't include one of the very first question. Who will you serve when I take away your memory with the veil?

Without understanding the principles of liberty that God gave us as a guide in the constitution that he claimed authorship of in D&c 101. The same type of government system that mosiah set up in his day. Mosiah 29.
The gadiantons destroyed it in 225 years. That message and warning is So important was that 2/3 of the Book of Mormon covered only that 225 years. And Mormon even commands us to awake to our awful situation today because of the same reasons.
The other 1/3 of the Bom covers a 3000 year period. And part of that also covers how the Jarodites were also destroyed by the gadiantons.

Without knowing those principles how can you expect to be one the lords side? How can you expect not to have eternal consequences when to be on the wrong side in heaven meant eternal damnation.

Ezra Taft benson in his book an enemy hath done this pointed out that the majority of those cast out where fence sitters. Neither hot nor cold. And is why there were so bitter at being cast out. They didn't choose satans side they just didn't choose the lords.

Now in this life the same is happening. Fence sitters. Neither hot nor cold. Many called few chosen. D&c 121: 33-40
Vs 38 says err they are aware they are left to kick against the pricks persecute the saints and fight against God.

God says the majority of lds fight against him.

And I know that's because they choose to sit the fence. Or unwittingly choose satans side in this life to use the force of government to put there fellow men into bondage of taxation and welfare that we have been warned about by scripture and prophets.

Of course, but the principles of liberty championed in the Book of Mormon are not the exclusive property of one nation; it's Republican party, it's gun lobby, it's armed forces, it's libertarians, or it's constitution.

[samizdat]

There is a diversity of political thought in the Church. Such is to be treasured, not to be spurned.

The Lord disagrees: D&C 38:27 - "I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine."

On doctrinal viewpoints, you are right, Gnolaum. There are many political theories out there though that are espoused by many church members the world over. The Constitution works well from an American standpoint as political theory cited by Scripture as inspired of God. Outside of America, well...

[MormonPatriot]

I am legitimately afraid of the church going left.

There seems to be more and more liberal whiners in my ward every day.

I have no problem with liberals personally but they are just simply wrong.

I trust God will not allow the church to go into apostasy but....who knows.

[Sirocco]

How would the LDS church go astray if God is the one incharge?
If it did turn that way isn't it God's will?
Isn't that the point of living Prophets?

[gnolaum]

Of course, but the principles of liberty championed in the Book of Mormon are not the exclusive property of one nation; it's Republican party, it's gun lobby, it's armed forces, it's libertarians, or it's constitution.

Excellent point. In fact those principles of liberty are much older than any nation at all. Even before the Magna Charta (penned in Britain about 1215), on which the US Constitution was partly based, the principles of liberty existed and belonged to all men. All of the libertarian organizations and documents are based upon the principles of liberty, which existed in the pre-existence. God the Father was the author, and we all on this earth chose to accept those principles and terms before being allowed to come here. We are in effect under contract to accept, abide and cherish those principles.

The problem is not who owns the ideals or from whence they originated. The problem is oneness. The enemy and all his minions have so successfully divided us (even in the church) that we cannot become Zion. We must be one in doctrine, in principle, in deed, in thought, etc. Modern politics are just a tool used to divide us. Left vs. Right is a lie. Those staunch "Republicans" or "conservatives" in the church are in just as much danger of hellfire as the "Democrats", or "liberals". It is high time we stop labeling ourselves and each other. We must grow up a bit and embrace truth wherever it is found and strip the labels from it. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are such truths.

Can you begin to see why the "cleansing" must occur? There are those in the church who would have their names removed if the church supported a position contrary to their political leanings. It has happened over and over throughout history. We have the Pharisees in our midst and they simply will not see the light or accept the truth when it is presented.

World, national and local political systems are broken. It is time to focus on track number 2, which has been and is quietly being built. There is no earthly solution that will fix the broken systems. Violence or war will not work. The word of testimony will not work. Reason will not work. It is now past the point of no return. Those who embrace the lies and propaganda here must be cast out, just as those third of our spiritual brothers and sisters over the war in heaven. Who does the casting? Jesus Christ.

We either embrace the truth wherever it may be found or we are cast out. How do we know the truth? We ask for it on our knees, and then we listen. We accept the answers given through the Holy Ghost and we act accordingly.

Peace.

[passionflower]

The World Congress of Families IX was held in Salt Lake City just a couple of weeks ago. Many MANY people attended this Congress from all over the world( I am surprised the Pope wasn't there! Many other religious leaders were.) Elder Ballard gave a welcoming opening speech to those who came, and invited them to look into our religion while here. He talked about the temple, LDS families being "forever families" and mentioned the bag of handouts the church had put together that was given to every person who would walk in the door to attend this congress. Inside this bag, among other things, was a copy of "The Proclamation on the Family" and the book by Cleon Skousen called "The 5000 Year Leap ".

I don't believe that anyone attending this congress would believe the LDS church was leaning left. Not by a looooong shot! And BTW, Elder Ballard's remarks were very inspiring as he spoke about loving our enemies ( those who supported gay marraige ) and being good to those who despitefully used us and persecuted us. He spoke on the millions of dollars that had been poured into the coffers of those who desired to overthrow religious freedom ( the supporters of gay marraige) and how formidable and determined those forces were. He then gave out a sort of clarion call to all those who wanted to save religious freedom and the natural family upon which it is based, to join forces and come forward NOW.

Several other church leaders spoke at this event. If you don't think the Elders of Israel are coming to bat to save the Constitution of the United States as it hangs by a thread, you should have been there. It was wonderful!

[captainfearnot]

I am legitimately afraid of the church going left.

There seems to be more and more liberal whiners in my ward every day.

I have no problem with liberals personally but they are just simply wrong.

I trust God will not allow the church to go into apostasy but....who knows.

It sounds like you are saying that you are actually Patriot First, Mormon Second. Do I have that wrong?

[samizdat]

The World Congress of Families IX was held in Salt Lake City just a couple of weeks ago. Many MANY people attended this Congress from all over the world( I am surprised the Pope wasn't there! Many other religious leaders were.) Elder Ballard gave a welcoming opening speech to those who came, and invited them to look into our religion while here. He talked about the temple, LDS families being "forever families" and mentioned the bag of handouts the church had put together that was given to every person who would walk in the door to attend this congress. Inside this bag, among other things, was a copy of "The Proclamation on the Family" and the book by Cleon Skousen called "The 5000 Year Leap ".

I don't believe that anyone attending this congress would believe the LDS church was leaning left. Not by a looooong shot! And BTW, Elder Ballard's remarks were very inspiring as he spoke about loving our enemies ( those who supported gay marraige ) and being good to those who despitefully used us and persecuted us. He spoke on the millions of dollars that had been poured into the coffers of those who desired to overthrow religious freedom ( the supporters of gay marraige) and how formidable and determined those forces were. He then gave out a sort of clarion call to all those who wanted to save religious freedom and the natural family upon which it is based, to join forces and come forward NOW.

Several other church leaders spoke at this event. If you don't think the Elders of Israel are coming to bat to save the Constitution of the United States as it hangs by a thread, you should have been there. It was wonderful!

Nice. Is there a full text somewhere? All I can find are summaries.

[passionflower]

The World Congress of Families IX was held in Salt Lake City just a couple of weeks ago. Many MANY people attended this Congress from all over the world( I am surprised the Pope wasn't there! Many other religious leaders were.) Elder Ballard gave a welcoming opening speech to those who came, and invited them to look into our religion while here. He talked about the temple, LDS families being "forever families" and mentioned the bag of handouts the church had put together that was given to every person who would walk in the door to attend this congress. Inside this bag, among other things, was a copy of "The Proclamation on the Family" and the book by Cleon Skousen called "The 5000 Year Leap ".

I don't believe that anyone attending this congress would believe the LDS church was leaning left. Not by a looooong shot! And BTW, Elder Ballard's remarks were very inspiring as he spoke about loving our enemies ( those who supported gay marraige ) and being good to those who despitefully used us and persecuted us. He spoke on the millions of dollars that had been poured into the coffers of those who desired to overthrow religious freedom ( the supporters of gay marraige) and how formidable and determined those forces were. He then gave out a sort of clarion call to all those who wanted to save religious freedom and the natural family upon which it is based, to join forces and come forward NOW.

Several other church leaders spoke at this event. If you don't think the Elders of Israel are coming to bat to save the Constitution of the United States as it hangs by a thread, you should have been there. It was wonderful!

Nice. Is there a full text somewhere? All I can find are summaries.

I do believe that Elder Ballards' opening address can be found somewhere online and listened to. My husband says eventually the World Congress of Families will post at least the highlights of their SLC World Wide Congress on their website. Nick Vujisic was there, too, and was he ever worth hearing. And there was a real good panel on the damaging effect of radical feminism. One of the congress leaders said something to the effect that Republican families are happier than Democrat families(lol). That one hit the fan and got a lot of bad publicity, so I bet you can find that speech somewhere!
Elder Ballard was their opening speaker, and was he ever every inch an Apostle who certainly wasn't ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, with the way he invited everyone there to visit Temple Square and learn what we believe, especially about the sacred nature of the family. He seemed very upbeat about there being more people in this world who were in favor of the natural family and religious freedom, than against it, and the way he spoke about loving our enemies was very beautiful. I don't know how anyone could say Mormons aren't Christians after hearing it.

Anyway, google this up, I imagine that at least a part of his speech is online now, at least on LDS.org.

[passionflower]

The World Congress of Families IX was held in Salt Lake City just a couple of weeks ago. Many MANY people attended this Congress from all over the world( I am surprised the Pope wasn't there! Many other religious leaders were.) Elder Ballard gave a welcoming opening speech to those who came, and invited them to look into our religion while here. He talked about the temple, LDS families being "forever families" and mentioned the bag of handouts the church had put together that was given to every person who would walk in the door to attend this congress. Inside this bag, among other things, was a copy of "The Proclamation on the Family" and the book by Cleon Skousen called "The 5000 Year Leap ".

I don't believe that anyone attending this congress would believe the LDS church was leaning left. Not by a looooong shot! And BTW, Elder Ballard's remarks were very inspiring as he spoke about loving our enemies ( those who supported gay marraige ) and being good to those who despitefully used us and persecuted us. He spoke on the millions of dollars that had been poured into the coffers of those who desired to overthrow religious freedom ( the supporters of gay marraige) and how formidable and determined those forces were. He then gave out a sort of clarion call to all those who wanted to save religious freedom and the natural family upon which it is based, to join forces and come forward NOW.

Several other church leaders spoke at this event. If you don't think the Elders of Israel are coming to bat to save the Constitution of the United States as it hangs by a thread, you should have been there. It was wonderful!

Nice. Is there a full text somewhere? All I can find are summaries.

I do believe that Elder Ballards' opening address can be found somewhere online and listened to. My husband says eventually the World Congress of Families will post at least the highlights of their SLC World Wide Congress on their website. Nick Vujisic was there, too, and was he ever worth hearing. And there was a real good panel on the damaging effect of radical feminism. One of the congress leaders said something to the effect that Republican families are happier than Democrat families(lol). That one hit the fan and got a lot of bad publicity, so I bet you can find that speech somewhere!
Elder Ballard was their opening speaker, and was he ever every inch an Apostle who certainly wasn't ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, with the way he invited everyone there to visit Temple Square and learn what we believe, especially about the sacred nature of the family. He seemed very upbeat about there being more people in this world who were in favor of the natural family and religious freedom, than against it, and the way he spoke about loving our enemies was very beautiful. I don't know how anyone could say Mormons aren't Christians after hearing it.

Anyway, google this up, I imagine that at least a part of his speech is online now, at least on LDS.org.

[MormonPatriot]

I am legitimately afraid of the church going left.

There seems to be more and more liberal whiners in my ward every day.

I have no problem with liberals personally but they are just simply wrong.

I trust God will not allow the church to go into apostasy but....who knows.

It sounds like you are saying that you are actually Patriot First, Mormon Second. Do I have that wrong?

If the Church go left...i will be. I am confident that won't happen. The new policy on gays has calmed my heart for now.

[captainfearnot]

I trust God will not allow the church to go into apostasy but....who knows.

If the Church go left...i will be. I am confident that won't happen. The new policy on gays has calmed my heart for now.

How would you tell the difference between the church moving left because that's what God wants, and the church moving left because it is in apostasy?

[natasha]

And when has the Church declared that it is left or right?

[Thinker]

For that to happen either the church or the Democrats would have to switch stances on abortion, gay marriage, and self reliance/government dependence. Democrats would also have to being more constitutionally based since the church believes the constitution to be an inspired document.

Yeah, so the chances are slim.
That's not to say that "members" won't become more liberal, because (I hate to say this but) many in this cult tend to embrace cult/group thought over thinking and spiritually discerning for themselves.

What if the LDS church moved politically to the left? The Cherubim would laugh with joy, the Seraphim would sing in happiness, and choirs of all the Angels would rejoice in concert. The saints would celebrate their pleasure with praise. And as for God, He would smile at the easement of the pain of His love.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Do you realize how illogical and unethical some aspects of "the left" are?
IE: Abortion is killing defenseless children (developing human beings) usually after 8 weeks gestation, when he/she can feel his/her body being ripped apart, limb by limb.
Do you really think that angels rejoice at that???
Or consider how you live - do you spend money that you don't have - or do you CONSERVE your resources - in conservative ways?
I'll agree with those who have mentioned NOT taking one group thought or the other - but considering issues in and of themselves to see if they are mostly productive or destructive.

[2ndRateMind]

C'mon, Thinker. Not all of us lefties think abortion is a good idea, except in certain narrowly defined circumstances, like rape, incest, or a threat to the life of the mother. A liberal outlook is not necessarily so liberal that it countenances any behaviour at all for the sake of convenience or congeniality. Rather, it prefers freedom of choice, except where that choice causes harm.

Best wishes, 2RM.