Negative and Positive Freedom

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
manton
captain of 10
Posts: 20

Re: Negative and Positive Freedom

Post by manton »

1. We may inherit thrones, principalities, dominions, etc. I don't know if these dominions are the same as you're referring to.
Yes, if we inherit dominions, to me that implies they are righteous dominions, to rule and reign.
I believe that righteous dominion is that which protects agency, which is also what you have been explaining. I agree completely with many points you made. I like how you point out the "powers of heaven" being the actual inhabitants of heaven I hadn't thought of it that way before.
I completely agree that God uses love and persuasion as a function of his eternal dominions. He is the example of righteous dominion I am referring to, and I agree, that righteous dominion is very difficult for man, but the Lord gave us the example and I believe we are in training now to know how to rule in the eternities. I believe righteous dominion is possible in mortality and required for a successful family.

In order to protect agency, we have to know what it is.

Full moral agency requires the following elements, 2 Ne 2 says it all:
1. LAW and Truth: (Moral/Natural Law, Revealed Law, Eternal Truth, not man-made-up law)
Cannot violate fundamental rights.
  • (Alma 42: 17-20, D&C 130:20-21, 2Ne 2:5,13; D&C 88:33-39)
2. CONSEQUENCE: (Punishment or Blessing): without a just consequence, you cannot have true law, they are one.
  • (Alma 42:17-23; Alma 12:32; D&C 130:20-21; 2Ne 2:10)
3. ACCOUNTABILITY: (Psalms 119:34, D&C 88:78, D&C 68:27, 1 Chronicles 22:12; Alma 42: 18; Alma 29:5, 2Ne 2:8; Alma 12:31)
We are liable when we have the following:
  • Ability to understand
  • Exposure to truth/knowledge - knowing good from evil, understand how to distinguish (2 Ne 2:5; Alma 12:31; Moses 6:56; Moroni 7:15, 19; Gen 3:5; Mosiah 16:3)
  • Conscience: our conscience aka moral compass, light of Christ
4. ENTICEMENT: Opposites required to be enticed by one or the other, fuels our desire (2 Ne 2:11, 15-16)
5. FREEDOM: (2Ne 2: 16, 26-27)
For freedom to exist, we must possess the following:
  • a. Life
    b. Liberty (Alma 43:49; 3 Nephi 3:2; 2 Nephi 10:11; Alma 43:26)
    c. Property
Use of the golden rule is a required aspect to protect agency. Adam and Eve in the garden shows how God used righteous dominion. He gave them the law, told them the consequence, allowed them to be enticed and to choose, then because of the transgression, executed the consequence.

Yes, I believe there can be "righteous" compulsion, but the "right use" of compulsion/force is in the execution of the punishment, which is the law of retribution. So in my opinion, I have no issue with God forcing Satan out for his violation of the law and agency. I believe that God can't force you into heaven, but I believe He can force you out, even if it is a negative force, such as when He used an angel with a flaming sword to guard the way to the tree of life. I believe He is the enforcer of the law and consequence. I do not think the "execution" of the punishment happens independent of Him because He is the law-giver, and therefore consequence-giver.
they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement
I agree that God uses love to motivate, but he also warns, "if you don't keep the commandments, then you'll be cut off." To me, this seems like the instruction of the law and consequence/reward. Obey, you'll be rewarded with more love. Don't obey, well, it won't be good.

manton
captain of 10
Posts: 20

Re: Negative and Positive Freedom

Post by manton »

I forgot to include the importance of the accountability element with our ability/capacity to understand the law/truth. E.g, We have to force our 2 yr old all the time to dress, get in her carseat, etc because she resists. (Not in anger either). Is that unrighteous dominion? I do not believe so, I believe it is righteous compulsion because she is not yet a full moral agent. She does not have the ability to understand therefore is not accountable. My actions of force I believe are righteous because the intention/purpose is righteous. As her accountabilty grows, the use of force obviously receeds.
I think this principle may apply to the instances in the scriptures where the use of force seems contradictory. The Lord knows a people's capacity and how they understand.

This of course can be corrupted and used unrighteously, such as govt thinking their citizens are too dumb so they need to do it for them. However, I'm talking about the idea in righteous uses.

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