Elder Oaks promoting political left

[Thomas]

My position on past leaders is exactly the same as the church's position, which is they acted and spoke without inspiration from God. That leaves me to wonder how it is I am supposed to assume all the actions and words of current leaders are inspired of God.

Thank you for stating where you stand. Since I believe our current and past prophets are inspired by God we really don't have a common ground to discuss this issue. Best of luck with your journey.

I guess that's fine. However, you seem to miss the point that your position pits you against the current leadership of the church as they have stated that past leaders acted and spoke without inspiration from God. You can't have it both ways. Either the past leaders were wrong or current ones are. Or both are wrong. There is no option where both are right.

I think mostly the mainstream of the church is oblivious to the conflict.

[Mark]

My position on past leaders is exactly the same as the church's position, which is they acted and spoke without inspiration from God. That leaves me to wonder how it is I am supposed to assume all the actions and words of current leaders are inspired of God.

Thank you for stating where you stand. Since I believe our current and past prophets are inspired by God we really don't have a common ground to discuss this issue. Best of luck with your journey.

I guess that's fine. However, you seem to miss the point that your position pits you against the current leadership of the church as they have stated that past leaders acted and spoke without inspiration from God. You can't have it both ways. Either the past leaders were wrong or current ones are. Or both are wrong. There is no option where both are right.

I think mostly the mainstream of the church is oblivious to the conflict.

As usual it is really you who are oblivious to the intent of Pres. Uchtdorfs words of encouragement given to those who struggle in the church. You Thomas can be counted on to twist their meaning so as to create doubt and division. What else is new? You have been doing it for years on this forum and there is no reason to think things will change in this regard. Let me quote Pres Uchtdorf so you can see the context and intent given by one of the Lords Prophets to those who may struggle.

"Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past. We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church history—along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events—there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.

Sometimes questions arise because we simply don’t have all the information and we just need a bit more patience. When the entire truth is eventually known, things that didn’t make sense to us before will be resolved to our satisfaction.

Sometimes there is a difference of opinion as to what the “facts” really mean. A question that creates doubt in some can, after careful investigation, build faith in others.

And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.

I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.

In the title page of the Book of Mormon we read, “And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.”6

This is the way it has always been and will be until the perfect day when Christ Himself reigns personally upon the earth.

It is unfortunate that some have stumbled because of mistakes made by men. But in spite of this, the eternal truth of the restored gospel found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not tarnished, diminished, or destroyed.

As an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and as one who has seen firsthand the councils and workings of this Church, I bear solemn witness that no decision of significance affecting this Church or its members is ever made without earnestly seeking the inspiration, guidance, and approbation of our Eternal Father. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. God will not allow His Church to drift from its appointed course or fail to fulfill its divine destiny.."

Are you getting it Thomas? We in the church do not believe in any kind of infallibility doctrine. All men are subject to making mistakes. That is the nature of mortality. However as Elder Uchtdorf testifies it is Christ who sits at the head of TCOJCOLDS. It has an appointed course. That course is to prepare the Saints for the redemption of Zion and the return of the Savior. It will not fail in that mandate. Individuals may falter and lose their way but the church will not fall into a state of apostasy again. It will fulfill that mandate. Christ has assured the Saints of that through his living oracles since the organization of the church. The Priesthood keys will remain on earth held and exercised by those living oracles until they are eventually returned back to Christ in his triumphant return to earth. Of that we can be sure. Regardless of what's all the naysayers and faultfinders may think..

[buffalo_girl]

Either the past leaders were wrong or current ones are. Or both are wrong. There is no option where both are right.

Couldn't ALL of them be right about some things and fuzzy about others?

Our task is to be worthy of being filled with the Spirit of the Lord so we can discern/know 'Right from fuzzy'...

[A Random Phrase]

My position on past leaders is exactly the same as the church's position, which is they acted and spoke without inspiration from God. That leaves me to wonder how it is I am supposed to assume all the actions and words of current leaders are inspired of God.

Thank you for stating where you stand. Since I believe our current and past prophets are inspired by God we really don't have a common ground to discuss this issue. Best of luck with your journey.

This is a rare type of comment on LDSFF. It has no air of contention, no attack. It seems to me it is simply stepping back and saying, "We disagree on the foundation of the thing we were discussing, therefor, our discussion will prove fruitless. I agree to disagree, and still be civil about it." Thank you for the breath of fresh air.

[Thomas]

Either the past leaders were wrong or current ones are. Or both are wrong. There is no option where both are right.

Couldn't ALL of them be right about some things and fuzzy about others?

Our task is to be worthy of being filled with the Spirit of the Lord so we can discern/know 'Right from fuzzy'...

Evidently not. It seems we are to swallow everything down without question.

[Thomas]

My position on past leaders is exactly the same as the church's position, which is they acted and spoke without inspiration from God. That leaves me to wonder how it is I am supposed to assume all the actions and words of current leaders are inspired of God.

Thank you for stating where you stand. Since I believe our current and past prophets are inspired by God we really don't have a common ground to discuss this issue. Best of luck with your journey.

I guess that's fine. However, you seem to miss the point that your position pits you against the current leadership of the church as they have stated that past leaders acted and spoke without inspiration from God. You can't have it both ways. Either the past leaders were wrong or current ones are. Or both are wrong. There is no option where both are right.

I think mostly the mainstream of the church is oblivious to the conflict.

As usual it is really you who are oblivious to the intent of Pres. Uchtdorfs words of encouragement given to those who struggle in the church. You Thomas can be counted on to twist their meaning so as to create doubt and division. What else is new? You have been doing it for years on this forum and there is no reason to think things will change in this regard. Let me quote Pres Uchtdorf so you can see the context and intent given by one of the Lords Prophets to those who may struggle.

"Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past. We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church history—along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events—there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.

Sometimes questions arise because we simply don’t have all the information and we just need a bit more patience. When the entire truth is eventually known, things that didn’t make sense to us before will be resolved to our satisfaction.

Sometimes there is a difference of opinion as to what the “facts” really mean. A question that creates doubt in some can, after careful investigation, build faith in others.

And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.

I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.

In the title page of the Book of Mormon we read, “And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.”6

This is the way it has always been and will be until the perfect day when Christ Himself reigns personally upon the earth.

It is unfortunate that some have stumbled because of mistakes made by men. But in spite of this, the eternal truth of the restored gospel found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not tarnished, diminished, or destroyed.

As an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and as one who has seen firsthand the councils and workings of this Church, I bear solemn witness that no decision of significance affecting this Church or its members is ever made without earnestly seeking the inspiration, guidance, and approbation of our Eternal Father. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. God will not allow His Church to drift from its appointed course or fail to fulfill its divine destiny.."

Are you getting it Thomas? We in the church do not believe in any kind of infallibility doctrine. All men are subject to making mistakes. That is the nature of mortality. However as Elder Uchtdorf testifies it is Christ who sits at the head of TCOJCOLDS. It has an appointed course. That course is to prepare the Saints for the redemption of Zion and the return of the Savior. It will not fail in that mandate. Individuals may falter and lose their way but the church will not fall into a state of apostasy again. It will fulfill that mandate. Christ has assured the Saints of that through his living oracles since the organization of the church. The Priesthood keys will remain on earth held and exercised by those living oracles until they are eventually returned back to Christ in his triumphant return to earth. Of that we can be sure. Regardless of what's all the naysayers and faultfinders may think..

No Mark, not quite right. I have given a direct quote of the current churches position. So, if the past leaders can act and speak with out the inspiration of God why should I assume the current leaders are capable of doing the same? This is not an attack. It is a simple statement of logic.

You post Uchtdorf's words as if they have some meaning to you, yet chastise me for pointing out the inconsistency that is apparent to me. So, in reality, his words are meaningless to you and just about everyone else in the church because it is merely lip service and anyone with a serious question is accused of causing doubt and division. You state the church is imperfect and the leaders are imperfect but if I say it, somehow that is wrong.

I think you are not quite understanding what I am talking because I was not referring to Uchtdorf when I said the church has stated past leaders have acted without inspiration. Try reading the essay on blacks and the priesthood.

[Thomas]

First Presidency Statement:
"The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time." (The First Presidency on the Negro Question,
17 Aug. 1949)

Official Statement of First Presidency issued on August 17, 1951, reads:

"The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the pre-mortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality, and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the principle itself indicates that the coming to this earth and taking on mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintained their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes.....

"Man will be punished for his own sins and not for Adam's transgression. If this is carried further, it would imply that the Negro is punished or allotted to a certain position on this earth, not because of Cain's transgression, but came to earth through the loins of Cain because of his failure to achieve other stature in the spirit world."

Brigham Young:

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, un- comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race - that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, [p.291] and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion.

Journal of Discourses 7:290-91 (October 9, 1859).

Sermon By Orson Hyde:
At the time the devil was cast out of heaven, there were .some spirits that did not know who had the authority, whether God or the devil. They consequently did not take a very active part on either side, but rather thought the devil had been abused, and considered he had rather the best claim to the government.

These spirits were not considered bad enough to be cast down to hell, and never have bodies ; neither were they considered worthy of an honourable body on this earth : but it came to pass that Ham, the son of Noah, saw the nakedness of his father while he lay drunk in his tent, and he with " wicked joy," ran like Rigdon, and made the wonderful disclosure to his brethren ; while Shem and Japheth took a garment, with pity and compassion, laid it upon their shoulders—went backwards and covered their father, and saw not his nakedness. The joy of the first was to expose—that of the second was to cover the unseemliness of their father. The conduct of the former brought the curse of slavery upon him, while that of the latter secured blessings, jurisdiction, power and dominion. Here was the beginning of blessing and cursing in the family of Noah, and here also is the cause of both. Canaan, the son of Ham, received the curse ; for Noah wished to place the curse as remote from himself as possible. He therefore placed it upon his grandson instead of his son.

Now, it would seem cruel to force pure celestial spirits into the world through the lineage of Canaan that had been cursed. This would be ill appropriate, putting the precious and vile together. But those spirits in heaven that rather lent an influence to the devil, thinking he had a little the best right to govern, but did not take a very active part any way were required to come into the world and take bodies in the accursed lineage of Canaan ; and hence the negro or African race. Now, therefore, all those who are halting concerning who has the right to govern had better look at the fate of their brethren that have gone before them, and take warning in time lest they learn obedience by the things which they suffer. " Choose ye this day whom you will serve." These things are among the mysteries of the kingdom, and I have told them, not by constraint or by commandment, but by permission.

Speech of Elder Orson Hyde Delivered Before the High Priests Quorum in Nauvoo, April 27th, 1845

Joseph Feilding Smith:

Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning.... we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our negro brethren, for they are our brethren-children of God-not withstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness.

The Way to Perfection, pages 101-102.

Spencer W. Kimball

The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl—sixteen—sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents—on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.

The Improvement Era, December 1960, p. 923.

Bruce R. McKonkie:
Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. (Abra. 1:20-27.) The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them... negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin. It is the Lord's doing, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the lack of Spiritual valiance of those concerned in their first estate.

Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 527-528.

Mark E Peterson:
When he told Enoch not preach the gospel to the descendants of Cain who were black, the Lord engaged in segregation. When He cursed the descendants of Cain as to the Priesthood, He engaged in segregation.

Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa? Was it some man, or was it God? And when He placed them there, He segregated them.

The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence. At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the Negro we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that he placed a dark skin upon them as a curse -- as a punishment and as a sign to all others. He forbade intermarriage with them under threat of extension of the curse. And He certainly segregated the descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line. You may even say He dropped an Iron curtain there.


Apostle Mark E. Peterson, "Race Problems – As They Affect the Church," Address given at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, delivered at BYU, August 27, 1954.

First, [before the seed of Cain get the priesthood] all of Adam's children will have to resurrect and secondly, the seed of Abel must have an

opportunity to possess the Priesthood. These events will not occur until sometime after the end of the millennium.

John L. Lund, The Church and the Negro, pp. 109‑110

Those who would try to pressure the Prophet to give the Negroes the Priesthood do not understand the plan of God nor the order of heaven. Revelation is the expressed will of God to man. Revelation is not man's will expressed to God. All the social, political, and governmental pressure in the world is not going to change what God has decreed to be.

John L. Lund, The Church and the Negro, p. 109

This is exactly what I was taught in church as young man in priesthood meeting and Sunday School that blacks would not receive the priesthood until after the millennium. And it didn't matter what the government or anyone else had to say about it because it was God's word. That did a 180 overnight.

I could go on and on but I think you get the point. Compare those statements to the current church's position.

Now I am told that racial slurs and denigrating remarks are sometimes heard among us. I remind you that no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church of Christ. How can any man holding the Melchizedek Priesthood arrogantly assume that he is eligible for the priesthood whereas another who lives a righteous life but whose skin is of a different color is ineligible?

President Gordon B. Hinckley, "The Need for Greater Kindness," April 2006 Priesthood Session.

Bruce R McKonkie:
"There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren that we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" All I can say is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.

So how are we supposed to know when they are speaking with light and truth or with limited understanding and lack of knowledge?

LDS church's Essay on Race and the Priesthood;
In theology and practice, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints embraces the universal human family. Latter-day Saint scripture and teachings affirm that God loves all of His children and makes salvation available to all. God created the many diverse races and ethnicities and esteems them all equally. As the Book of Mormon puts it, “all are alike unto God.”1

Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions. None of these explanations is accepted today as the official doctrine of the Church.
Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.24

https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the ... d?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I said, only the current group or the previous group of leaders can be right. They have the complete opposite doctrine and the current church disavows the beliefs of the past leaders.

[passionflower]

.

[Thomas]

Thanks for the post. I certainly believe leaders can and do receive revelation as well as any member of the church, including your friend of color. However, I think my post above makes it quite clear that you cannot rely on churcheaders to give you the truth. You may call that a an attack I or say I am in Satan" s grasp but I have laid out the facts straight for all to see. You must obtain the truth from God for yourself. Even those we call prophet have taught false doctrine and any one that has eyes can see it. Those who refuse to see the truth are in Satan"s grasp.

The gospel is true. However, we as a church cling to idols and neglect the duty devolving on ourselves to. Commune with God.

Joseph Smith said Mormism was truth. The search for truth in all things no matter where it came from. Mormonism is now whatever comes from the mouth of current leaders no matter if it is the exact opposite of what last generation"s leader said.

The Book of Mormon says God does not have one shadow of change and that if he did , he would not be God. Church leaders claim to speak for God. The past church leaders said it was God" s word that blacks were cursed and would not receive priesthood til after the millienmum. Now church leaders say they speak for God and say, blacks never were cursed. So obvisiously, one group or the other was lying. They were not speaking for a God that does not change. there is much good in the church. However that will not stop me from searching for and embracing truth.

I think I now understand why the apostle Paul said, that in the last days, the church would not endure sound doctrine and turn to fabels and Isaiah said, we would take refuge in a lie.

[Mark]

Thanks for the post. I certainly believe leaders can and do receive revelation as well as any member of the church, including your friend of color. However, I think my post above makes it quite clear that you cannot rely on churcheaders to give you the truth. You may call that a an attack I or say I am in Satan" s grasp but I have laid out the facts straight for all to see. You must obtain the truth from God for yourself. Even those we call prophet have taught false doctrine and any one that has eyes can see it. Those who refuse to see the truth are in Satan"s grasp.

The gospel is true. However, we as a church cling to idols and neglect the duty devolving on ourselves to. Commune with God.

Joseph Smith said Mormism was truth. The search for truth in all things no matter where it came from. Mormonism is now whatever comes from the mouth of current leaders no matter if it is the exact opposite of what last generation"s leader said.

The Book of Mormon says God does not have one shadow of change and that if he did , he would not be God. Church leaders claim to speak for God. The past church leaders said it was God" s word that blacks were cursed and would not receive priesthood til after the millienmum. Now church leaders say they speak for God and say, blacks never were cursed. So obvisiously, one group or the other was lying. They were not speaking for a God that does not change. there is much good in the church. However that will not stop me from searching for and embracing truth.

I think I now understand why the apostle Paul said, that in the last days, the church would not endure sound doctrine and turn to fabels and Isaiah said, we would take refuge in a lie.

More of your division drivel. I think you completely missed the scripture in section 56 where the Lord said He would command and revoke as it seemeth HIM good and that His actions would be answered upon the heads of the rebellious who did not heed those commands. You are obviously in the running to qualify as one of those rebellious spoken of. Pitting dead Prophets against living ones is a sure fire path to disaster. Don't be so sure that The Lord can't or won't say something different to one generation than he did to another. He has done so for millennia. What He spoke through prophets in 2000 BC might be a tad different than what He says to us through prophets today. That is His right. Don't make the mistake of limiting Diety and putting Him in your well constructed box. That is called pride.

[buffalo_girl]

Evidently not. It seems we are to swallow everything down without question.

As a 'thinking' teenager and 20-something in the 1960's I thought that was what was expected, too. I wasted a lot of time 'reacting' to what I knew in my heart was 'fuzzy' doctrine on the part of past - and at the time - present church leadership.

My bitterness over these 'fuzzy doctrines' hindered me from being a productive member of Christ's Church. Not until that bitterness was washed out of me by heartbreaking events in my personal life was I able to turn fully to the LORD and what became a life-long search for answers directly from scripture and through prayer.

Curiously, somewhere in the process I lost being overly concerned about those in leadership positions. They learn as they go, just as I do. With the LORD's help, I have been able to maintain a steady peace despite doctrinal 'fuzziness' and the thoughtless things said and done by those who should know better.

[EmmaLee]

My bitterness over these 'fuzzy doctrines' hindered me from being a productive member of Christ's Church. Not until that bitterness was washed out of me by heartbreaking events in my personal life was I able to turn fully to the LORD and what became a life-long search for answers directly from scripture and through prayer.

Curiously, somewhere in the process I lost being overly concerned about those in leadership positions. They learn as they go, just as I do.

Thank you for sharing this. I love it.

[Thomas]

Thanks for the post. I certainly believe leaders can and do receive revelation as well as any member of the church, including your friend of color. However, I think my post above makes it quite clear that you cannot rely on churcheaders to give you the truth. You may call that a an attack I or say I am in Satan" s grasp but I have laid out the facts straight for all to see. You must obtain the truth from God for yourself. Even those we call prophet have taught false doctrine and any one that has eyes can see it. Those who refuse to see the truth are in Satan"s grasp.

The gospel is true. However, we as a church cling to idols and neglect the duty devolving on ourselves to. Commune with God.

Joseph Smith said Mormism was truth. The search for truth in all things no matter where it came from. Mormonism is now whatever comes from the mouth of current leaders no matter if it is the exact opposite of what last generation"s leader said.

The Book of Mormon says God does not have one shadow of change and that if he did , he would not be God. Church leaders claim to speak for God. The past church leaders said it was God" s word that blacks were cursed and would not receive priesthood til after the millienmum. Now church leaders say they speak for God and say, blacks never were cursed. So obvisiously, one group or the other was lying. They were not speaking for a God that does not change. there is much good in the church. However that will not stop me from searching for and embracing truth.

I think I now understand why the apostle Paul said, that in the last days, the church would not endure sound doctrine and turn to fabels and Isaiah said, we would take refuge in a lie.

More of your division drivel. I think you completely missed the scripture in section 56 where the Lord said He would command and revoke as it seemeth HIM good and that His actions would be answered upon the heads of the rebellious who did not heed those commands. You are obviously in the running to qualify as one of those rebellious spoken of. Pitting dead Prophets against living ones is a sure fire path to disaster. Don't be so sure that The Lord can't or won't say something different to one generation than he did to another. He has done so for millennia. What He spoke through prophets in 2000 BC might be a tad different than what He says to us through prophets today. That is His right. Don't make the mistake of limiting Diety and putting Him in your well constructed box. That is called pride.

So, you are trying to say that God revoked that blacks were not valiant in the pre-existence? I think you really don't understand what it means to command and revoke. You don't command and revoke past events. What will God revoke next? Adam and Eve were not really our first parents? Christ didn't die on the cross? We really don't have spirits? It is all up for grabs in your crazy world.

God speaks eternal words. If a true spokesmen of God speaks the words God gives him, concerning a doctrinal point, such as the status of certain race in the pre-existence, then the story stays the same. God doesn't tell us fibs just to change the story a few years later.

Yes, God can do what he wants as far as giving the priesthood to who he wants to give it to. God can do what he wants in that regard. That is not my point. My point is God words are truth.

I will pit live prophets against dead ones every single day. That is how to tell whether the live one is a true prophet or not. You have to have some solid ground to stand on. The sands shift below your feet and you seem to think its no big deal. There is a reason God gave us the scriptures. So much garbage to you I guess though because it is full of dead prophets.

[Thomas]

Evidently not. It seems we are to swallow everything down without question.

As a 'thinking' teenager and 20-something in the 1960's I thought that was what was expected, too. I wasted a lot of time 'reacting' to what I knew in my heart was 'fuzzy' doctrine on the part of past - and at the time - present church leadership.

My bitterness over these 'fuzzy doctrines' hindered me from being a productive member of Christ's Church. Not until that bitterness was washed out of me by heartbreaking events in my personal life was I able to turn fully to the LORD and what became a life-long search for answers directly from scripture and through prayer.

Curiously, somewhere in the process I lost being overly concerned about those in leadership positions. They learn as they go, just as I do. With the LORD's help, I have been able to maintain a steady peace despite doctrinal 'fuzziness' and the thoughtless things said and done by those who should know better.

Yes, all is well. Don't pay any attention to those "fuzzy things".

2 Nephi 28:21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well--and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

2 Nephi 28:24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

2 Nephi 28:25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

[Mark]

Thanks for the post. I certainly believe leaders can and do receive revelation as well as any member of the church, including your friend of color. However, I think my post above makes it quite clear that you cannot rely on churcheaders to give you the truth. You may call that a an attack I or say I am in Satan" s grasp but I have laid out the facts straight for all to see. You must obtain the truth from God for yourself. Even those we call prophet have taught false doctrine and any one that has eyes can see it. Those who refuse to see the truth are in Satan"s grasp.

The gospel is true. However, we as a church cling to idols and neglect the duty devolving on ourselves to. Commune with God.

Joseph Smith said Mormism was truth. The search for truth in all things no matter where it came from. Mormonism is now whatever comes from the mouth of current leaders no matter if it is the exact opposite of what last generation"s leader said.

The Book of Mormon says God does not have one shadow of change and that if he did , he would not be God. Church leaders claim to speak for God. The past church leaders said it was God" s word that blacks were cursed and would not receive priesthood til after the millienmum. Now church leaders say they speak for God and say, blacks never were cursed. So obvisiously, one group or the other was lying. They were not speaking for a God that does not change. there is much good in the church. However that will not stop me from searching for and embracing truth.

I think I now understand why the apostle Paul said, that in the last days, the church would not endure sound doctrine and turn to fabels and Isaiah said, we would take refuge in a lie.

More of your division drivel. I think you completely missed the scripture in section 56 where the Lord said He would command and revoke as it seemeth HIM good and that His actions would be answered upon the heads of the rebellious who did not heed those commands. You are obviously in the running to qualify as one of those rebellious spoken of. Pitting dead Prophets against living ones is a sure fire path to disaster. Don't be so sure that The Lord can't or won't say something different to one generation than he did to another. He has done so for millennia. What He spoke through prophets in 2000 BC might be a tad different than what He says to us through prophets today. That is His right. Don't make the mistake of limiting Diety and putting Him in your well constructed box. That is called pride.

So, you are trying to say that God revoked that blacks were not valiant in the pre-existence? I think you really don't understand what it means to command and revoke. You don't command and revoke past events. What will God revoke next? Adam and Eve were not really our first parents? Christ didn't die on the cross? We really don't have spirits? It is all up for grabs in your crazy world.

God speaks eternal words. If a true spokesmen of God speaks the words God gives him, concerning a doctrinal point, such as the status of certain race in the pre-existence, then the story stays the same. God doesn't tell us fibs just to change the story a few years later.

Yes, God can do what he wants as far as giving the priesthood to who he wants to give it to. God can do what he wants in that regard. That is not my point. My point is God words are truth.

I will pit live prophets against dead ones every single day. That is how to tell whether the live one is a true prophet or not. You have to have some solid ground to stand on. The sands shift below your feet and you seem to think its no big deal. There is a reason God gave us the scriptures. So much garbage to you I guess though because it is full of dead prophets.

Pres. Kimball summed your type up very well Thomas. I hope you will understand the dangerous ground you are treading. Unfortunately that may just be a pipe
dream but hope springs eternal..


Apostasy often begins with criticism of current leaders. Apostasy usually begins with question and doubt and criticism. It is a retrograding and devolutionary process. The seeds of doubt are planted by unscrupulous or misguided people, and seldom directed against the doctrine at first, but more often against the leaders. They who garnish the sepulchres of the dead prophets begin now by stoning the living ones. They return to the pronouncements of the dead leaders and interpret them to be incompatible with present programs. They convince themselves that there are discrepancies between the practices of the deceased and the leaders of the present. They allege love for the gospel and the Church but charge that leaders are a little "off the beam"! Soon they claim that the leaders are making changes and not following the original programs. Next they say that while the gospel and the Church are divine, the leaders are fallen. Up to this time it may be a passive thing, but now it becomes an active resistance, and frequently the blooming apostate begins to air his views and to crusade. He is likely now to join groups who are slipping away. He may become a student of the Journal of Discourses and is flattered by the evil one that he knows more about the scriptures and doctrines than the Church leaders who, he says, are now persecuting him. He generally wants all the blessings of the Church: membership, its priesthood, its temple privileges, and expects them from the leaders of the Church, though at the same time claiming that those same leaders have departed from the path. He now begins to expect persecution and adopts a martyr complex, and when finally excommunication comes he associates himself with other apostates to develop and strengthen cults. At this stage he is likely to claim revelation for himself, revelations from the Lord directing him in his interpretations and his actions. These manifestations are superior to anything from living leaders, he claims. He is now becoming quite independent. History repeats itself. As the critics of the Redeemer still worshiped Abraham and the critics of Joseph Smith could see only the Savior and his apostles, and as the apostates of Brigham's day could see only the martyred Joseph, now there are those who quote only the dead leaders of the pioneer era.

[buffalo_girl]

Yes, all is well. Don't pay any attention to those "fuzzy things".

Apparently, you do NOT know what I am saying.

Are you saying you are disappointed that the notion that people of African descent are forever 'cursed' and thus outside any Hope of Eternal Life changed due to man's fuzziness or God's fuzziness?

Do you think God was being fuzzy about that particular bit of nonsense and simply had a better thought 134 years later?

Over the 62 years I've been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ, I've experienced enough Faith testing by 'those who should know better' to have developed what could have become a pretty serious case of 'Spiritual PTSD'.

Believe me! Putting yourself through this kind of anguish over the 'precepts of men' will NOT help bring you closer to God.

I no longer worry about the 'human factor' which can and does 'fuzzy' the minds of ALL of us, including those in mortal leadership positions.

PRAY for answers to your questions and READ your scriptures with full confidence that those questions will be answered.

My experience convinces me that God is NOT changeable.

So...if HE isn't - who is?

[A Random Phrase]

The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

Probably because they were not out in the sun getting tanned.

[A Random Phrase]

BG, I would venture to guess that Thomas believes that black people never should have been held back. The Book of Mormon says that salvation is for all, black and white, bond and free. And God is no respecter of persons.

[Thomas]

Yes, all is well. Don't pay any attention to those "fuzzy things".

Apparently, you do NOT know what I am saying.

Are you saying you are disappointed that the notion that people of African descent are forever 'cursed' and thus outside any Hope of Eternal Life changed due to man's fuzziness or God's fuzziness?

Do you think God was being fuzzy about that particular bit of nonsense and simply had a better thought 134 years later?

Over the 62 years I've been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ, I've experienced enough Faith testing by 'those who should know better' to have developed what could have become a pretty serious case of 'Spiritual PTSD'.

Believe me! Putting yourself through this kind of anguish over the 'precepts of men' will NOT help bring you closer to God.

I no longer worry about the 'human factor' which can and does 'fuzzy' the minds of ALL of us, including those in mortal leadership positions.

PRAY for answers to your questions and READ your scriptures with full confidence that those questions will be answered.

My experience convinces me that God is NOT changeable.

So...if HE isn't - who is?

My comments were not about whether blacks should have the priesthood or not. They were about whether we should accept the words of leaders as if they came from God. That's kinda what started the thread here. Do we follow our conscience or swallow down whatever leaders say because "they speak for God".

Blacks and the priesthood is just the tip of a huge iceberg when it comes to inconsistencies. We can talk about Adam is God, polygamy which is a rabbit hole of uncharted depths of which only God knows the full details, gays, women's lib, masturbation, blood atonement, you name it. It all changes. It is the shifting sands beneath our feet.

So where can the word of God be found? What is required for salvation? Because what Joseph said is required is a whole lot different than what leaders teach today.

Either Joseph Smith taught truth or the church is false. You cannot build a true church on the foundation of a false prophet. But as Mark just pointed out, you better not check and see what that dead prophet said and compare it to the living one or you are one step away from hell. Or as other's have mentioned, " in Satan's grasp".

God did give us true prophets. They should show us the way to find God for ourselves, not lead us to worship and adore them. I do not want to be like Thomas S Monson. I want to be like Christ.

If you have found God, then I am happy for your success. Please show the rest of us the way.

[wargames83]

The American people voted against "homosexual marriage" and yet government authorities disobeyed that and DOMA and installed unjust laws anyway. Did Dallin Oaks mention how Obama and others in high positions, have not done their job duties?
No, he chose to join in being a bully to a woman who had the courage to defend the laws she was hired under - and that Americans voted for.

Dallin Oaks is supposed to be a servant of God first and foremost - that is his paid calling - but he's putting corrupt law before his duties, by saying someone should stick to their job duties! How ironic - hypocritical.

This whole talk seems like a way to get the church out of the fire and fight against Gay Marriage and make us look more sympathetic to the authority of the supreme court, the authority of current United States government and immoral laws. I'm sorry, but this is completely the wrong direction that the church and members of the church should be taking. This is not standing up for what we believe in!

You believe in forcing your religious values on everyone else? That is what the Protestants did when they pushed for outlawing polygamy.

[buffalo_girl]

If you have found God, then I am happy for your success. Please show the rest of us the way.

I DID tell you how I found peace with the LORD, in addition to a level of peace functioning within HIS Church while bumping into a multitude of imperfect mortals such as myself at all levels of the organization.

Maybe you didn't understand?

I wasted a lot of precious time being in a tizzy over inconsistencies and downright meanness on the part of members of Christ's Church 'who should know better'.

WHAT I learned was...The Gospel of Christ is NOT about THEM; it IS about working with the LORD on behalf of my own Salvation by applying HIS LAW - as best I know how - through life's experiences in and out of HIS Church

Don't waste time worrying about the flaws in others. Being in a tizzy over fuzzy doctrine makes for personal bitterness and doesn't get you any closer to the LORD or your own Salvation.

[buffalo_girl]

BG, I would venture to guess that Thomas believes that black people never should have been held back. The Book of Mormon says that salvation is for all, black and white, bond and free. And God is no respecter of persons.

I ALWAYS believed that, too, and for the same reason...

2Nephi 26
33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

I was even escorted out of a classroom of teenagers I was teaching and told I would NOT be able to teach Youth again for having read that very verse to them in our Book of Mormon studies. I was accused of teaching 'interracial marriage'! That was in June 1977!

A couple of months later, I moved to Provo from Portland, Oregon to finish my degree at BYU.

Like the experience related a few posts back regarding a young man's vision of blacks enjoying full fellowship in the Church, it was exactly one year later, in Salt Lake City when I learned that Priesthood Blessings were now open to ALL worthy men in Christ's Church.

Visiting my home ward in Portland the summer of 1978 was quite an experience. The Youth who had tattled to their parents over 2Nephi 26:33 the last time I taught them were glad to see me! Their parents were a bit shy about acknowledging me.

Should I have despised them for their ignorance or been grateful to the LORD that HIS Word is Eternal and True despite the foolishness of men/women?

[GeeR]

So buffalo_girl are you against interracial marriage? I'm not trying to start a fight, just curious. One of my sons (a returned missionary) married a black girl from Jamaica. I told him before that event to only marry within his own race and religion but he ignored me and did what was politically correct. I felt suicidal for about 6 months and finally had to force myself to think of other things. Fast forward 6 years later to today, he seems happy and now serves as first counselor in the bishopric and has 3 children and yes I love them but still if I could turn back time I would.

[buffalo_girl]

I was more confused by the notion that people of African descent were judged to have been spiritually inferior in the pre-existence. That never set right with me even though I saw a lot of prejudice in the working class neighborhood where I lived.

I grew up in a 'mixed' neighborhood in Portland, Oregon. I mean 'mixed'! After WWII, people stayed and raised their families in that area who had come from all over the US to work in the shipyards building ships for the war effort. My first babysitter was a black lady I dearly loved as a small child. I did NOT know she had dark skin until many years later when my mom took me with her for a visit. My child's eyes could only 'see' her as someone I trusted and loved while my mom was at work.

In sixth grade I got into trouble with a really crazy 17-year-old Blackfoot Indian kid over his horse. (That's another story.) He came to the grade school I attended and waited for me in the bike lot with a crowbar. When my black school mates saw I was in serious trouble with this guy, they put the word out and got a whole bunch of guys together and walked me all the way home.

So...the Church policy on people of African descent never set right with me.

There can be some 'cultural' differences in how people are raised which may present a challenge to a married couple of mixed heritage. The people I've known of African descent, however, have been hardworking, middleclass folks who share similar values to my own.

There's a beautiful Jamaican woman in the nearest town to us married to a white pastor. When I see her in town we talk & talk & talk about how her Jamaican culture applies the Gospel of Jesus Christ by seeing to the needs of those around them in their villages & neighborhoods.

I know things have gone amiss with many African-American families in the US. (That's another story, too.)

[Zathura]

So buffalo_girl are you against interracial marriage? I'm not trying to start a fight, just curious. One of my sons (a returned missionary) married a black girl from Jamaica. I told him before that event to only marry within his own race and religion but he ignored me and did what was politically correct. I felt suicidal for about 6 months and finally had to force myself to think of other things. Fast forward 6 years later to today, he seems happy and now serves as first counselor in the bishopric and has 3 children and yes I love them but still if I could turn back time I would.

You believe your son sinned and ignored God's commands in marrying a black woman?
Would you share why you would turn back time and have him marry a white woman?