"The Gospel and Animals"

[SmallFarm]

How do you know they do not have feelings?

Oh I wasn't actually implying they don't have feelings, just that those feeling are very different than what you and I experience. Why did Jesus curse the fig tree?

[SmallFarm]

If a flowering plant is left alone, it may grow few flowers or sometimes even one. But if you pick a flower, the plant goes into over-drive; producing many flower-heads. A patch of wildflowers will start to grow dun and start to die at the end of summer, but if you run a lawn mower over it it will spring back to life for another season (and the lawnmower will spread any mature seeds from the dead flower heads. This approach to animals would spell extinction but plants thrive on it.

[BTH&T]

By the time the millenium comes no one will need to eat any more meat.

No one needs to eat meat now.

I find those that don't think we should eat meat need to read D&C 59: 16-21

"Verily I say, that inasmuch as ye do this, the fulness of the earth is yours, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which climbeth upon the trees and walketh upon the earth; Yea, and the herb, and the good things which come of the earth, whether for food or for raiment, or for houses, or for barns, or for orchards, or for gardens, or for vineyards; Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart; Yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul. And it pleaseth God that he hath given all these things unto man; for unto this end were they made to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion. And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments."

God gave us ALL that is here on earth for what is laid out and it offends God that we do not have gratitude for these gifts. Meat is one of these gifts! We should use"judgement, not to excess" BUT they are to be used and we need to be grateful for them!

This is true about fossil fuels and all other things on this earth!
The evil one has twisted this like so many other things and many are confused by what the creation of this earth was for....US... all of human kind! Be grateful for all of the earths gifts. The Lord has created more than enough.

[BTH&T]

I love animals and do not believe in cruelty of any kind.
However when it comes to man or beast, the Earth WAS CREATED FOR MAN.
It's part of our stewardship to care for them and we will each answer for how we do!

[SmallFarm]

I love animals and do not believe in cruelty of any kind.
However when it comes to man or beast, the Earth WAS CREATED FOR MAN.
It's part of our stewardship to care for them and we will each answer for how we do!

It's not ours though, we are only stewards here.

[Elizabeth]

Personally I have never experienced famine, and living in a temperate climate have rarely experienced cold.

“Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

“And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.” (D&C 89:12–13.)

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... 1?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I find those that don't think we should eat meat need to read D&C 59: 16-21

[WarMonger]

Are animal spirits also awaiting in the pre-mortal existence to obtain their mortal bodies on this earth? I think they are.

Supposedly "If you understood the plan of salvation, you would not kill an ant"..I have killed many of those.

Everything was created spiritually before it was physically, this goes for algae to grass to all plant and animal life, even the earth has a spirit.

Moses 3:5
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

Gen 2:4 ¶These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

[freedomforall]

Are animal spirits also awaiting in the pre-mortal existence to obtain their mortal bodies on this earth? I think they are.

Supposedly "If you understood the plan of salvation, you would not kill an ant"..I have killed many of those.

Everything was created spiritually before it was physically, this goes for algae to grass to all plant and animal life, even the earth has a spirit. Does this include parameciums?

Moses 3:5
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

Gen 2:4 ¶These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

[BTH&T]

Personally I have never experienced famine, and living in a temperate climate have rarely experienced cold.

“Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

“And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.” (D&C 89:12–13.)

I find those that don't think we should eat meat need to read D&C 59: 16-21

For us to use for taste!, And you are right in that we should use sparingly. We are stewards of all the earth and we are to be grateful to God. We are on this earth to live, not hide. Too many want to say none.

[zionminded]

Animals are Gods creations and they too, have their agency. They choose in all cases to serve God and the sons of Adam. In many cases they agreed to be "food".

Having said that, this doesn't mean that "we" can abuse animals, that is wrong always. Also eating meat and animals is an order here and now (the Telestial world), but is not of a Terrestrial or certainly Celestial order. Many individuals over time as the world evolves into a Terrestrial state, will choose not to eat meat.

[Vision]

1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Paul forewarned us about the animal rights movement.

[oneClimbs]

Here's my personal take on the subject: http://oneclimbs.com/2011/10/05/a-fresh ... of-wisdom/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Complete abstinance is wrong because animals have been placed here for our use when there is a legitimate "need," however today, I don't think there is much need for a large segment of the first world.

Joseph Fielding Smith has some insightful words:

"This is my answer to you in relation to President Brigham Young’s statement that mothers should not feed their small children meat. Yes! Small children do not need the flesh of animals. May I add also that adults would be better if they would refrain from too much eating of meat. As far as I am concerned the eating of meat should be very sparingly. In fact I will be contented if the Millennium was to be ushered in next week. When it is, we will learn that the eating of meat is not good for us. Why do we feel that we do not have a square meal unless it is based largely on meat. Let the dumb animals live. They enjoy life as well as we do.

In the beginning the Lord granted man the use of the flesh of certain animals. See Genesis 9:1-6, but with so many fruits of the soil and from the trees of the earth, why cannot man be content? Naturally in times of famine the flesh of animals was perhaps a necessity, but in my judgment when the Millennium reaches us, we will live above the need of killing dumb innocent animals and eating them. If we will take this stand in my judgment we may live longer. [In a letter to a member sister in El Paso, Texas, dated 30 Dec. 1966, quoted in Health Is A Blessing: A Guide to the Scriptural Laws of Good Health, by Steven H. Horne, advance publication copy (Springville, Utah: Nature’s Field, 1994), p. 34.]

If I needed animal flesh, I would eat it, but for the past four years I have prospered without any of it. Why use what I don't need?

[Elizabeth]

"The need of a Redeemer lies in the inability of man to raise himself from the temporal to the spiritual plane, from the lower kingdom to the higher. In this conception we are not without analogies in the natural world. We recognize a fundamental distinction between inanimate and living matter, between the inorganic and the organic, between the lifeless mineral on the one hand and the living plant or animal on the other. Within the limitations of its order the dead mineral grows by accretion of substance, and may attain a relatively perfect condition of structure and form as is seen in the crystal. But mineral matter, though acted upon favorably by the forces of nature—light, heat, electric energy and others—can never become a living organism; nor can the dead elements, through any process of chemical combination dissociated from life, enter into the tissues of the plant as essential parts thereof. But the plant, which is of a higher order, sends its rootlets into the earth, spreads its leaves in the atmosphere, and through these organs absorbs the solutions of the soil, inspires the gases of the air, and from such lifeless materials weaves the tissue of its wondrous structure. No mineral particle, no dead chemical substance has ever been made a constituent of organic tissue except through the agency of life. We may, perhaps with profit, carry the analogy a step farther. The plant is unable to advance its own tissue to the animal plane. Though it be the recognized order of nature that the “animal kingdom” is dependent upon the “vegetable kingdom” for its sustenance, the substance of the plant may become part of the animal organism only as the latter reaches down from its higher plane and by its own vital action incorporates the vegetable compounds with itself. In turn, animal matter can never become, even transitorily, part of a human body, except as the living man assimilates it, and by the vital processes of his own existence lifts, for the time being, the substance of the animal that supplied him food to the higher plane of his own existence. The comparison herein employed is admittedly defective if carried beyond reasonable limits of application; for the raising of mineral matter to the plane of the plant, vegetable tissue to the level of the animal, and the elevation of either to the human plane, is but a temporary change; with the dissolution of the higher tissues the material thereof falls again to the level of the inanimate and the dead."
https://www.lds.org/manual/jesus-the-ch ... 3?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BTH&T]

Since we are discussing animals:
https://maddmedic.wordpress.com/2015/08 ... -choirboy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SmallFarm]

Since we are discussing animals:
https://maddmedic.wordpress.com/2015/08 ... -choirboy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh he stole the head of the gazelle so he could mount it in his study and wasted all the rest of the meat? Boy that dentist is sounding more and more like a hero every day! @-) :ymsigh: 8-|

[Bgood]

How do you know they do not have feelings?

Oh I wasn't actually implying they don't have feelings, just that those feeling are very different than what you and I experience. Why did Jesus curse the fig tree?

That part of a living being which exists before mortal birth, which dwells in the physical body during mortality, and which exists after death as a separate being until the resurrection. All living things—mankind, animals, and plants—were spirits before any form of life existed upon the earth (Gen. 2:4–5; Moses 3:4–7). The spirit body looks like the physical body (1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15–16; D&C 77:2; D&C 129). Spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure than mortal element or matter (D&C 131:7).

Every person is literally a son or a daughter of God, having been born as a spirit to Heavenly Parents before being born to mortal parents on the earth (Heb. 12:9). Each person on earth has an immortal spirit body in addition to a body of flesh and bone. As sometimes defined in scripture, the spirit and the physical body together constitute the soul (Gen. 2:7;D&C 88:15; Moses 3:7, 9, 19; Abr. 5:7). A spirit can live without a physical body, but the physical body cannot live without the spirit (James 2:26). Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. In the resurrection, the spirit is reunited with the same physical body of flesh and bone it possessed as a mortal, with two major differences: they will never be separated again, and the physical body will be immortal and perfected (Alma 11:45; D&C 138:16–17) :o)

[SmallFarm]

How do you know they do not have feelings?

Oh I wasn't actually implying they don't have feelings, just that those feeling are very different than what you and I experience. Why did Jesus curse the fig tree?

That part of a living being which exists before mortal birth, which dwells in the physical body during mortality, and which exists after death as a separate being until the resurrection. All living things—mankind, animals, and plants—were spirits before any form of life existed upon the earth (Gen. 2:4–5; Moses 3:4–7). The spirit body looks like the physical body (1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15–16; D&C 77:2; D&C 129). Spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure than mortal element or matter (D&C 131:7).

Every person is literally a son or a daughter of God, having been born as a spirit to Heavenly Parents before being born to mortal parents on the earth (Heb. 12:9). Each person on earth has an immortal spirit body in addition to a body of flesh and bone. As sometimes defined in scripture, the spirit and the physical body together constitute the soul (Gen. 2:7;D&C 88:15; Moses 3:7, 9, 19; Abr. 5:7). A spirit can live without a physical body, but the physical body cannot live without the spirit (James 2:26). Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. In the resurrection, the spirit is reunited with the same physical body of flesh and bone it possessed as a mortal, with two major differences: they will never be separated again, and the physical body will be immortal and perfected (Alma 11:45; D&C 138:16–17) :o)

I'm trying to see your point

[inho]

Are animal spirits also awaiting in the pre-mortal existence to obtain their mortal bodies on this earth? I think they are.

I believe that too.

D&C 77:2
the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

So then I hope that Cecil the Lion goes to... the Lion Celestial Kingdom, do Lions have an afterlife? Will I be up there and run from immortal lions?

Looks like Cecil the lion is speaking as a voice from the dust. Karen Anderson-Animal Communicator, reportedly made contact with the lion from the afterlife and posted his message to Facebook...

"Let not the actions of these few men defeat us or allow darkness to enter our hearts. If we do then we become one of them. Raise your vibration and allow this energy to move us forward. What happened does not need to be discussed as it is what it is. Take heart my child, I am finer than ever, grander than before as no one can take our purity, our truth or our soul. Ever. I am here. Be strong and speak for all the others who suffer needlessly to satisfy human greed. Bring Light and Love and we will rise above this."

http://www.dailydot.com/lol/cecil-the-l ... hic/?fb=dd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[passionflower]

A while back someone asked proof that a modern Prophet ever spoke about meat consumption. No one came forward, they just kept quoting D&C 89 over and over again.

Well, a modern prophet DID expound on meat eating mentioned in this section. That prophet being President Spencer W. Kimball in about 1976(?), wherein he spoke to a general Priesthood Meeting at the Tabernacle on Temple Square. Previously he had done one for the youth of the church. I think a women's meeting was held a few years later.

I have tried to find a transcript of this priesthood meeting online, but I could not find it. My son-in-law found it, he says, and verified this story:

A young man I knew was interested in the church. I find out about this Priesthood meeting, and think " what a great way for him to hear a modern prophet speak!" so on that night I drive him up to temple square and drop him off, intending to come back for him in a couple of hours.

So when I come back, I park the car and come onto Temple Square looking for him To my dismay, the square was filled with men in suits everywhere even lining the steps going up to the tabernacle. Instead of going home, they were in circles of 6-8, vehemently arguing and shouting. Though some were trying to calm others down, it just got worse as I wove my way through this frightening crowd full of very angry men. It was so bad, I thought the police should be called, or even the National Guard.

Finally, my friend finds me. I ask him "WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?!!" We get off the temple grounds and he proceeds to tell me this:

He was sitting in the back of the Tabernacle. After this meeting begins with hymn singing and prayer, this 'old guy' got up ( meaning Pres Kimball )and gives a sermon on the WOW. After talking awhile, this 'old guy' gets to the part about God saying don't eat meat. Then with a "Thus saith the Lord" Hunting was only appropriate when there wasn't enough other food or warm clothing, etc. Any man who hunted for sport or profit was NOT worthy of his Priesthood or Temple Recommend.

So when the 'old guy' says this, a literal roar went up from the congregation that would not stop. He thought people were going to kill him!

My friend ( who did go on to join the church, BTW) remarked that "what the 'old guy' said made perfect sense to him. He was the only son of a farmer in Ohio, with five younger sisters. They pretty much lived off their farm, and did not always have cash. During most of the winter or during other hard times, if there wasn't a good meal to put on the table, he and his dad would get their shot guns or fishing poles, and go get a jack rabbit or fish for dinner. If they had just hunted for the fun of it any old time, there might not have been enough food when they needed it.

Now, I wasn't in this meeting, so I can't say I'm not an "ear" witness, But with the way those men were acting, this HAD to be what Pres Kimball said! My own son in law is from a family of five boys, with a real hunting traditions, and he didn't believe this story. He was so mad about it, he went to look it up online(to prove me wrong). Now he won't go hunting with them anymore.

Raising meat and eggs to consume or sell ( or make clothing, etc ) from the flocks and herds you yourself are working with it not against the WOW. Neither is anything from the grocery store. But going out into the wild and hunting for sport IS, most emphatically. And I have since come to observe it being about as addicting as smoking or coffee drinking, costs too much money, and often is done over Sunday.

When the WOW was given to JS, we were seeing the near demise of many wonderful creatures on this earth through hunting. We are taught in this country to almost romanticize the "fur trappers" like Jim Bridger. But the whole beaver population was nearly lost over nothing but a beaver fur fashion whim in England. Then european fashion turned to feathers, and exotic beautiful birds from south america became extinct to please this trend. And do we need a reminder over what happened to the american buffalo, because it's tongue was considered a delicacy? Later on, in Africa, elephants were killed for their ivory alone, and Lions were bagged by the hundreds, with big game hunters responsible for this travesty given movie star hero status in America!

According to President Kimball, this is what the Lord was talking about in section 89, NOT whether you had bacon and eggs for breakfast.

You see, raising your own flocks and herds is hard work and requires constant attention and even devotion. It's a big character building responsibility.
But hunting is fun and thrilling. How many men would rather go on a hunting trip than stay home feeding the pigs day after day? Fathers and sons can learn a lot of life lessons from raising their own animals to consume or sell.

[EmmaLee]

If hunting for sport is against the WoW, and Pres. Kimball preached against it, ^^^ it makes you wonder why the Church owns several hunting preserves. Just google 'LDS Church hunting preserves' for many articles describing them - some for, some against. Here's a snippet from one of the articles from the Deseret News -

"The church owns thousands of acres of farm and ranch land throughout the West, including the Deseret Land and Livestock Co., a private big-game hunting preserve scattered over 200,000 acres in northern Utah. Hunters from around the country vie for a limited number of elk and moose permits there that cost as much as $8,500 each.

Complete with a formal hunting lodge for housing and meals, the hunts are guided by a local outfitter. And while there's no guarantee that a hunter's bullet will find its mark, hunting on the preserve is so popular, there's a six-year waiting list to buy a permit."

I'm against hunting for sport, or hunting animals at all, unless you NEED the meat to survive.

[David13]

There is not enough hunting, actually.
Deer population is overrunning many areas. 1,500,000 motor vehicle / deer accidents occur each year, and cost the motoring public billions of dollars.
If you buy auto insurance, you pay for it.
Hunted meat seldom goes to waste. Nationwide there are processors and food banks everywhere that provide for the distribution of the hunted meat to needy persons.
Deer are invading suburbs everywhere and eating gardening and landscaping. Many suburban areas have brought in hunters to deal with this problem.
There are still quite a few people in this nation that supplement their food supply with hunted meat.
dc

[passionflower]

If hunting for sport is against the WoW, and Pres. Kimball preached against it, ^^^ it makes you wonder why the Church owns several hunting preserves. Just google 'LDS Church hunting preserves' for many articles describing them - some for, some against. Here's a snippet from one of the articles from the Deseret News -

"The church owns thousands of acres of farm and ranch land throughout the West, including the Deseret Land and Livestock Co., a private big-game hunting preserve scattered over 200,000 acres in northern Utah. Hunters from around the country vie for a limited number of elk and moose permits there that cost as much as $8,500 each.

Complete with a formal hunting lodge for housing and meals, the hunts are guided by a local outfitter. And while there's no guarantee that a hunter's bullet will find its mark, hunting on the preserve is so popular, there's a six-year waiting list to buy a permit."

I'm against hunting for sport, or hunting animals at all, unless you NEED the meat to survive.

This isn't an "if" proposition TR. And SWP didn't preach against it, the Lord did. And what I said happened with the recent history of hunting is a fact.

I since have learned that Joseph F Smith tried to preach against it, too, and basically got the same reaction.

I wasn't in the Tabernacle that summer to hear this myself, but I was a witness to this reaction, which was violent. I was frightened!

Why, therefore, does the church have hunting preserves?

Well, considering the story I told, you gotta know what would happen if the church came out against hunting. Sometimes the Lord just tells the Prophet to withdraw from the fight. ( BTW, I know of one hunting preserve that was shut down a few years ago )

A little while back, when Julie Beck was General RS President, she gave a talk that was given the thumbs up by President Hinckley beforehand, admonishing women to keep their homes clean and orderly to improve the spirit within. Our Stake RSP has a sister who, being a secretary to Julie Beck, was eyewitness to the bags and bags and bags and bags and BAGS of angry HATE MAIL full of threats that flowed on top of her desk every day for over a month! This onslaught does not include the vitriol sent to the church by E-mail, or was published on the internet or in the newspapers.

Did she ever bring that up again? No. Neither has anybody else. Some subjects cause too much contention within the church.

After President Benson gave his now infamous speech in which he said women shouldn't work outside the home, we all know what happened, right? I could tell you stuff about this that would truly shock you, TB. But the church doesn't talk about it anymore, do they?

Keeping the WOW by abstaining from the Big Four, wasn't just preached in the 1930's. I have church publications going back to the 1800's where time and time again, this subject is brought up, only to have John and Jane church member get pretty upset about it. If, back then, the church had made avoiding these substances a prerequisite before attending the temple, very little temple work could have been done ( and it's part of the three-fold mission of the church)

We could all be a much more spiritually developed people if we had the attitude of a willing heart and mind.

[EmmaLee]

Maybe you missed the part of my post where I said, "...unless you NEED the meat to survive." If the meat from hunted animals is going to feed people who would otherwise be hungry - great! With as much perfectly good meat that is thrown away in this country every day though, probably not necessary to go hunting animals to feed hungry people. I know the homeless shelters in the city here are VERY picky and particular about what food they will even accept - they have a specific list of items they will take - deer meat is not on it. Neither are canned or boxed goods that are even one day past their expiration date. Seems strange to me, but whatever.

You seem to have also missed the main point of my post, as well, which was - if hunting for sport is against the Word of Wisdom, and Pres. Kimball spoke out against it - why does the LDS Church have several hunting-for-sport preserves?

[EmmaLee]

What I said about the current LDS Church currently owning, operating, and promoting several hunting-for-sport preserves is also FACT. Sorry if those FACTS bother you, but they are what they are. Anyone can do the research themselves.

As for the leaders of the Church changing their tune on various things due to the outcry from members - that's sad any way you want to look at it. The Lord gives the people what they want. Which explains a lot, actually.