How does God protect us from harm while still protecting the agency of all people?

[curioussaint25]

How does God protect us from the adversary? If we are all "agents unto ourselves", then what about people who are in circumstances where people have ill will or bad intentions toward them, whether it be do to jealousy, hatred, misunderstandings, etc?

If it is my duty to be humble, and always choose the right when I am challenged in all things, including dealing with people who may not like me, then what about their free agency? That is what makes me think that God, in all his wisdom, might do things in the universe to make others not be "in your way" as much as you try to live a righteous life...but then I know he is a God of law, so by his own law he couldn't take away their agency even if they choose to be mean, harmful, or try to sabotage your efforts towards things...I would like some input on how he protects us from harm people while preserving the agency and freedom of choice to all people both good and bad. Thanks!

[Elizabeth]

Inspiring to avoid potential harmful situations.

[oneClimbs]

If you look in the scriptures you will find places where God intervenes and when he does not. He delivered Alma and Amulek but allowed Abinadi to be murdered, the same with Alma and Amulek's initial converts. The story of Job, whether it was actual or allegorical, illustrates another idea. We see that God allows suffering up to a point, he may even allow that suffering to end in death.

I believe the reason for this is that he knows what will break us, what is too much for us to bear and what isn't. I believe that even tremendous suffering and death are not enough to break most people. In the cases where it would, where it would be too much or where there is a need for a particular person to live for foreordained reasons, then God intervenes.

Remember that we are here to know the bitter and the sweet. God never promises that we won't suffer, in fact, it is said that all who will live Godly in Jesus Christ shall suffer persecution (2 Timothy 3:12). Righteousness it seems, will bring even more suffering rather than less. I believe this is because a righteous person often has more powerful tools to help them reconcile such situations. In the absence of such knowledge, I think God bestows greater grace, an ability to bear the most wretched of abuses.

To us, we tend to put ourselves in the shoes of others and say, "That is impossible to bear because I couldn't bear it" well that may be true but you are not them. Someone could say the same of what you are going through and you may be fine with it or at least able to bear it in a manner that you can move forward.

The bottom line is that God knows us. Ultimately, we can either trust him or complain and just live out our lives blindly in a universe created by God but pretending he isn't there. I trust God, I definitely don't understand the "why" of every situation, but I can understand the "why" in my own life or at least try to.

I've seen and experienced enough to know that God is aware of me and he loves me. I know that he loves everyone else as well.

[jbalm]

Have you ever witnessed a bona fide case of divine intervention?

[Desert Roses]

Have you ever witnessed a bona fide case of divine intervention?

Yes. More than one.

[jbalm]

Real ones, that couldn't be explained by anything else?

If so, then did the divine intervention(s) interfere with anyone else's agency?

[David13]

I do not believe God protects you from harm.
The question always is, why do bad things happen to good people.
The answer is easy - free will, or as it's known in the Mormon world, agency.
Sometimes there are near misses. I suppose those can be explained in two ways. God's intervention. Or, bad aim.
dc

[rewcox]

Deuteronomy 20
1 When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the Lord thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

[Matchmaker]

I do not believe God protects you from harm.
The question always is, why do bad things happen to good people.
The answer is easy - free will, or as it's known in the Mormon world, agency.
Sometimes there are near misses. I suppose those can be explained in two ways. God's intervention. Or, bad aim.
dc

David13,

Maybe God is trying to protect you by inspiring you to move to Utah from LA. We'll be glad to have you here, although both places are overdue the big earthquake.

[oneClimbs]

Have you ever witnessed a bona fide case of divine intervention?

I have been witness to several and while I cannot detail them here, I will provide a short synopsis. I understand that nothing here will satisfy the skeptic, because after all, these are just words and prove nothing. But since a witness was asked for I will provide just a few that immediately come to mind.

1. A six-year-old that I am very close to had endured a grueling series of operations since they were a little over a year old four times per year each year. This child was in deep distress and said that they couldn't continue because of the pain, etc. They were told to pray and that a 'warm feeling' would bring them peace. The next morning the child announced that they had prayed but didn't have any kind of warm feeling. Instead the child said, "He spoke to me." When asked what he said, the reply was, "Oh, I can't remember all of that" and after further inquiry small details like, "He told me to be strong and keep going and that he loved me very much." the child never complained about the surgeries again.

2. An old man fell off of a ladder and cracked his head on the foundation of his home. My missionary companion and I were walking several blocks away. We had seen some kind of movement in the distance when to both of us simultaneously the Spirit shouted "RUN!" We gave him a blessing and turned him on his side so that he wouldn't drown on the blood pooling up in his mouth. He survived, but could have died if we had not been there. It was a very small town and a quiet street.

3. This third example is one that I am a first-hand witness to. This is the trickiest one of all because I am not comfortable sharing the details. I will say this though, that I would be dead now if it wasn't for God's intervention. The particulars of my experience are fairly unique in that I don't know of any other similar parallel. But it was only the unexpected intervention of God that saved me. If you want the details and have an open mind, I can share them in a PM but I don't feel that they should be public. Maybe someday, but not now.

In each case (and in others I haven't shared here) I don't see where agency has been violated. Bodily defects, accidents, and unusual circumstances were made bearable or the cause for suffering was eliminated, but it doesn't appear that agency was violated.

I am a first-hand witness of the power of God's practice of intervening. While God did intervene in my behalf, it wasn't until after almost a decade of fear and unanswered prayer. In those years there was almost no sense of God's presence or existence until I reached the end, a point where only intervention could have saved me.

In retrospect, while those years were horrible, they did not destroy me. While I slowly descended deeper into darkness and even felt like I hit the bottom, I was raised back up and then beyond. I can relate to Alma who said that his joy was as exceeding as his pain. I call it an intervention because the results were the opposite of what I had planned or expected. I'm having to speak in veiled references which makes explaining very difficult, but sufficed it to say that yes, I have witnessed intervention and at least for me, I understand why and how and why it took so long to happen. It does give context to the rest of the suffering I see in the world and I know that such things pain God greatly and when intervention is truly needed (as he sees it) he rushes in.

[jbalm]

Sorry,

I shouldn't have made it look like I was arguing whether divine intervention actually happens or not.

My main point was to find out, if such things actually occurred, whether they interfered with anyone's agency.

But I can see how my regular skepticism could make my point get lost. Especially when I worded my post as I did.

[David13]

When I saw what I believe was divine intervention, it did not interfere with free will or agency.
dc

[gnolaum]

If it is my duty to be humble, and always choose the right when I am challenged in all things, including dealing with people who may not like me, then what about their free agency?

Some definitions:

AGENCY: The ability to choose good or evil. This is unalienable. It cannot be removed from a child of God.

FREEDOM/LIBERTY: The ability to act according to ones agency. This can be taken away or curtailed.

God does not trounce agency. EVER! I believe He can get around that eternal law though, by temporarily curtailing your freedom. Let's say someone wants to do you harm, but maybe God needs you to accomplish something that will affect millions of people in a positive way. I believe He can put obstacles in the way of your enemy so that he cannot do you harm, thus temporarily circumventing his ability to do that specific act. The enemy still has his agency (or freedom to choose) but he may be prevented from acting on it in certain circumstances.

I think most often He allows us to act according to our own consciences (Light of Christ) by choosing good or evil and if that means someone is allowed to murder you, it is counted as a witness against the them and maybe to your own glory depending on the circumstances.

So often the secular world says something like, how can there be a God who allows all the evil in the world. I think you have hit on the answer with your topic. Agency is paramount. It is the reason for the war in heaven and satan's expulsion. God will never circumvent our agency.

Having said that I think some of us are put on the earth in bodies with mental disabilities which prevent us from being responsible for our choices. But I think those individuals are particularly special.

[zionminded]

God gives all their agency. He's also very interested in us, and is very involved in our lives. These two seem to be in conflict, and most people gravitate to one or the other, but few can believe in both at once. The key is in eternal perspective, and a bit of faith.

Before we were all born, we agreed to certain situations, both in things we would do (harm) others, and also things that we agreed to be receive (harm) to us. We understood these were for our improvement and learning experience. We choose before we were born all these things between us and Father (in a covenant relationship), thus Father honors those decisions from before we were born. This allows God to help craft our experience and be very involved in our lives.

The hard part with that description is it seems to pigeon hole us into "fate", where things have been so pre-programmed, such that the choices of others and us, have already been made. Therefore, we choose (a) or (b) it has already been decided, eliminating agency. This is where the faith comes in. We need to believe that God is omnipotent, in every way. That does take faith, since somebody all-knowing isn't readily apparent in this experience (earth).

The atonement covers the rest, both for harm done, but also where agency doesn't quite pan out the way it should. But God knew that too.

[Serragon]

My experiences with the divine have been to bring me or others to greater understanding in a miraculous way. I have never personally experienced my agency being curtailed in any way.

[Desert Roses]

Real ones, that couldn't be explained by anything else?

If so, then did the divine intervention(s) interfere with anyone else's agency?

A family I was involved with from a recovery aspect: Grandma had custody of the grandchildren after mom left because she was using drugs; dad overdosed and died. The dad died 2 days before anyone found out and the kids (ages 3 and 18 months) were in the house with the body those 2 days. When Grandma said how sad she was they had been alone during that time, the 3 year old pointed to a picture of Christ on the wall and said, "We weren't alone. He was there." Grandma told me this when someone else mentioned the song back in the 90's about the little girl hiding behind the couch when her dad shot her mom and then himself, and she said Jesus had been with her. No, that intervention didn't interfere with anyone's agency.

Personal experience. I was inactive in the church after my divorce from an abusive husband, but we had been sealed. I was living a very non-LDS life, and was confronted by a bishop who told me that I shouldn't be living with the man I was with. I basically flipped him off and told him it was none of his business. A few months later, as I was working the 12-Steps of AA, and during Step 3 realized God's will was that I go back to church (His will, not His forcing me--I could choose), and part of that was dealing with that bishop. When I came to him, he stated flatly that there would be a church court, and that since I was an endowed member, I would be excommunicated. I spent quite a bit of time telling the Lord I would accept whatever happened but that if I were excommunicated it would be hard, because I would know I was no longer a member and no longer under the promises I had made as a member. When the court came back with the decision, I have never seen a man literally "tortured" by the words he spoke. I walked out of that room with not even being disfellowshipped, much less excommunicated. I KNOW Christ personally intervened in that church court. Did it take away the bishop's agency? In that case, I believe the bishop was acting as Christ's servant and was thus obligated by that role to do what Christ wanted, even if it was contrary to what he personally wanted--like someone who has been hired to paint a house fire engine red when they think it should be painted brown. I don't know--I just know I was being protected and forgiven by my Savior.

[Sirocco]

Sorry,

I shouldn't have made it look like I was arguing whether divine intervention actually happens or not.

My main point was to find out, if such things actually occurred, whether they interfered with anyone's agency.

But I can see how my regular skepticism could make my point get lost. Especially when I worded my post as I did.

I have had people claim divine intervention in my life though I didn't and don't believe it was that.
(Long story short, have an x ray, dentist says there's cyst-tumour-thing in my jaw, when they go in, its just a hole, he didn't really know how it happened since I had never taken a large enough blow to my head to cause such a thing).

Not sure where agency plays into that, maybe my belief in if it was a "miracle" or not.

[oneClimbs]

Sorry,

I shouldn't have made it look like I was arguing whether divine intervention actually happens or not.

My main point was to find out, if such things actually occurred, whether they interfered with anyone's agency.

But I can see how my regular skepticism could make my point get lost. Especially when I worded my post as I did.

Sorry back at cha, I didn't mean to imply that anyone was a skeptic. That was the thought in my mind though as I was thinking of the best way to share things. I thought to myself "Hmm, I wonder if I could write in a way that could convince a skeptic," but quickly reminded myself that nobody can be convinced by words alone. So I added a caveat, but wasn't directing it at anyone.

Believe it or not, I am very skeptical. Even in the middle of some spiritual experiences I have actually sat there and have thought, "yeah, but what if this is just" only to be convinced the next moment as the realization truth drops.

Good news hard-headed folks, God will work with you if you solider on.

My skepticism raises eyebrows at all claims but is willing to give things a shot to see what develops.

[Desert Roses]

I've been pondering the questions in this thread, and I began to think of how few humans in the history of the world have had "agency" as it seems to be understood here. Many, in fact the overwhelming majority, of humankind has lived their lives in either complete slavery or under the thumb of a very harsh and controlling system of society and government. They mostly lived in what we would think of as the most abject poverty, so their choices about anything were very limited. They rarely traveled unless they were in the military and marched to conquest. They had very little choice of food, clothing, home, and even family. Spouses were chosen for them, and life was not something that was "chosen". The time and circumstances of death are not chosen by most of us.

I suppose my point is that our culture values human choice very highly, but we are a great exception to human history. Even within our choices, there are many choices we do not get to make, and yet that seems not an interference with our agency. To interfere with agency would require that God take away not just our ability to act as we choose, but our ability to think and feel. Actions are almost always limited in some fashion; thought and feeling are not and indeed, cannot be. My agency is not whether I can act to harm or not harm another person, but whether I can think and feel against God and others.

I love "Man's Search for Meaning", (Viktor Frankl) as he points out that while the Nazis completely took away choice of everything from those in the camps, the choice to feel, to care, and to think positively could not be taken away. Our agency to choose our own response for good or evil is something that not even God can ever take from us.

[gnolaum]

I've been pondering the questions in this thread, and I began to think of how few humans in the history of the world have had "agency" as it seems to be understood here. Many, in fact the overwhelming majority, of humankind has lived their lives in either complete slavery or under the thumb of a very harsh and controlling system of society and government. They mostly lived in what we would think of as the most abject poverty, so their choices about anything were very limited. They rarely traveled unless they were in the military and marched to conquest. They had very little choice of food, clothing, home, and even family. Spouses were chosen for them, and life was not something that was "chosen". The time and circumstances of death are not chosen by most of us.

Clearly you understand that agency is not equivalent to freedom. Agency is the ability to choose good or evil. No matter one's circumstances they still have agency (the ability to choose good or evil). Agency does not mean everyone has the ability to choose to drive a Porche, or even to walk around freely. One may be incarcerated or a slave, but their ability to choose cannot be taken away. Though choices of action may be severely limited, the laws of spiritual physics does not allow agency to be taken away completely. Just like the telestial law of gravity, it never goes away. We can temporarily overcome its effects using other laws like thrust and lift but the law does not change and indeed cannot.

I suppose my point is that our culture values human choice very highly, but we are a great exception to human history. Even within our choices, there are many choices we do not get to make, and yet that seems not an interference with our agency. To interfere with agency would require that God take away not just our ability to act as we choose, but our ability to think and feel. Actions are almost always limited in some fashion; thought and feeling are not and indeed, cannot be. My agency is not whether I can act to harm or not harm another person, but whether I can think and feel against God and others.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. One's actions may certainly be limited and indeed taken away entirely. One could lose his arms and legs and still have agency in his thoughts and feelings. In concert with this example it is easy to see how we are able to learn much better and more quickly when we have physicality and a minimal bit of freedom. The reason is because we can use our agency to determine our actions. We can then experience the physical, emotional and spiritual repercussions of those actions (good or bad), which, again, are the result of our choices or agency. Without physical bodies our ability to learn would be greatly hindered.

I love "Man's Search for Meaning", (Viktor Frankl) as he points out that while the Nazis completely took away choice of everything from those in the camps, the choice to feel, to care, and to think positively could not be taken away. Our agency to choose our own response for good or evil is something that not even God can ever take from us.

Totally agree! Thank you for this post. =;

[passionflower]

Real ones, that couldn't be explained by anything else?

If so, then did the divine intervention(s) interfere with anyone else's agency?

I can tell you a simple story concerning divine intervention that happened to me. And yes, my agency was interfered with.

When I was three years old I stayed with my grandparents while my own parents took a trip out of the country. I remember it was autumn, and my Oma sent me outside to play after putting a coat on me.

There were some swampy areas surrounding a creek in the vicinity of her home. One thing I enjoyed doing on her property with my cousins(who lived in the neighboring house) was collecting polywogs and picking tall flowers that grew along the creek side. I remember the sky being overcast as I walked along a road ( this was still on their property )and it had just rained. When I am gone a ways, I see some tall flowers that lined the bank of the creek. I want to go pick them VERY much, so I turn to walk towards them. But suddenly some invisible person I sense but cannot see, kneels behind me, slides his arms under mine, crossing them over the front of my body and then firmly grasping my shoulders. I feel this vise like grip this person has on me, but I really want those flowers, so I struggle against this person who is now holding me fast. I have quite a temper tantrum over it, but soon tire out, and change my mind about getting those flowers. As if the person behind me could read my mind, his arms slip away, and he disappears. I continue walking down the road..

So why did an invisible yet powerful man stop me from picking flowers that day?

When I was seven years old, I was playing with my cousins, who lived on this same land. We were catching polywogs in the creek, and putting them in jars. I was the youngest, when suddenly they left, and there I was all alone. I kept catching polywogs, moving further up the creek to find more, until my jar was full. Wanting to show everyone my "catch", I made to go towards the house. When I took one step onto the bank of the creek, suddenly I sunk up to my hip in quicksand! I was very frightened, but right then, a voice inside my head, a man's voice said " take your other leg and walk forward!" I forced my other leg through this awful engulfing slush of sand and to my relief, felt solid ground. The voice then said "pick up the other leg and move forward!" I was very scared, but found I could do it. Another step, and I was out, and running back to the house in tears!

So could this be why, no matter how strong my own will was to obtain a handful of flowers, I held back that day four years earlier? My cousin told me many years later, that as a teenager, she had fallen into quicksand along that creek clear up to her waist!

[BTH&T]

How does God protect us from the adversary? If we are all "agents unto ourselves", then what about people who are in circumstances where people have ill will or bad intentions toward them, whether it be do to jealousy, hatred, misunderstandings, etc?

If it is my duty to be humble, and always choose the right when I am challenged in all things, including dealing with people who may not like me, then what about their free agency? That is what makes me think that God, in all his wisdom, might do things in the universe to make others not be "in your way" as much as you try to live a righteous life...but then I know he is a God of law, so by his own law he couldn't take away their agency even if they choose to be mean, harmful, or try to sabotage your efforts towards things...I would like some input on how he protects us from harm people while preserving the agency and freedom of choice to all people both good and bad. Thanks!

here is a great talk on Free Agency https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/neal-a-m ... ee-choose/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Matchmaker]

How does God protect us from the adversary? If we are all "agents unto ourselves", then what about people who are in circumstances where people have ill will or bad intentions toward them, whether it be do to jealousy, hatred, misunderstandings, etc?

If it is my duty to be humble, and always choose the right when I am challenged in all things, including dealing with people who may not like me, then what about their free agency? That is what makes me think that God, in all his wisdom, might do things in the universe to make others not be "in your way" as much as you try to live a righteous life...but then I know he is a God of law, so by his own law he couldn't take away their agency even if they choose to be mean, harmful, or try to sabotage your efforts towards things...I would like some input on how he protects us from harm people while preserving the agency and freedom of choice to all people both good and bad. Thanks!

here is a great talk on Free Agency https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/neal-a-m ... ee-choose/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Neal A. Maxwell was one of my favorite Apostles. Thank you, BTH&T, for the link.

[JKimball]

There is a really interesting story in the Book of Mormon where God basically just ends a man's life to protect Ammon:

Alma 19:22 Now, one of them, whose brother had been slain with the sword of Ammon, being exceedingly angry with Ammon, drew his sword and went forth that he might let it fall upon Ammon, to slay him; and as he lifted the sword to smite him, behold, he fell dead.

Mormon suggests that this remarkable example of intervention is due to a specific promise Mosiah had obtained from God:

23 Now we see that Ammon could not be slain, for the Lord had said unto Mosiah, his father: I will spare him, and it shall be unto him according to thy faith—therefore, Mosiah trusted him unto the Lord.

[Nebguy]

If it is my duty to be humble, and always choose the right when I am challenged in all things, including dealing with people who may not like me, then what about their free agency?

Some definitions:

AGENCY: The ability to choose good or evil. This is unalienable. It cannot be removed from a child of God.

FREEDOM/LIBERTY: The ability to act according to ones agency. This can be taken away or curtailed.

God does not trounce agency. EVER! I believe He can get around that eternal law though, by temporarily curtailing your freedom. Let's say someone wants to do you harm, but maybe God needs you to accomplish something that will affect millions of people in a positive way. I believe He can put obstacles in the way of your enemy so that he cannot do you harm, thus temporarily circumventing his ability to do that specific act. The enemy still has his agency (or freedom to choose) but he may be prevented from acting on it in certain circumstances.

I think most often He allows us to act according to our own consciences (Light of Christ) by choosing good or evil and if that means someone is allowed to murder you, it is counted as a witness against the them and maybe to your own glory depending on the circumstances.

So often the secular world says something like, how can there be a God who allows all the evil in the world. I think you have hit on the answer with your topic. Agency is paramount. It is the reason for the war in heaven and satan's expulsion. God will never circumvent our agency.

Having said that I think some of us are put on the earth in bodies with mental disabilities which prevent us from being responsible for our choices. But I think those individuals are particularly special.

Very good points all around! The lord cannot violate the agency of those who choose to do evil. In that case, most of the time, that decision has been taken from you and you alone must make the judgment call of the appropriate response.
As for the last part of your post, if anyone truly wants to see the Christlike attributes of man, check out the Special Olympics. Volunteers are not for everyone, but I promise you, you will see adults more Christlike than most of us could ever dream of being.