Religious Freedom vs. LBGT freedom?

[prisonchaplain]

America was founded, and is united, by our dedication to freedom. Pilgrim's fled religious persecution, and sought a society in which they could worship God according to the dictate's of their conscience. Today some argue freedom of religion is too costly. They say it hurts other groups, and allows hatred and bigotry. Too many Americans shed blood, for us to give in to such division. God sent Jesus to free us from sin--to set captives free. Those who would attempt to suppress faith in their name of their own freedom fall for Satan's ruse. "Take the fruit and you will be like God, knowing good from evil."

[karend77]

Great article everyone should read about the misuse of the word tolerance and she says "If we want a false harmony and a philosophy that continues to breed self-righteousness from all sides, by all means, let us continue defining and practicing tolerance as we have."

https://boehadden.wordpress.com/2011/08 ... -together/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[marc]

PC, glad you're still around. To me, in a nutshell, freedom, or rather liberty is universal. There have been some excellent discussions on this forum about liberty, what it is and what it isn't. Some quick thoughts are what King Mosiah in the Book of Mormon explained concerning freedom and when a society as a group has exercised freedom to choose until it has become ripe for destruction.

Freedom has always, in my mind, been infected with prejudice and judgment, especially by Christians and of course Mormons. We tend to judge others according to our own individual understanding of what God has commanded rather than what He has actually said. Thus, rather than loving one another and exercising patience, brotherly kindness, meekness, longsuffering and charity to serve others and persuade, we tend to preach heavy handed with condemnation because everyone else sins differently than we do. Sheer hypocrisy.

The world now wants freedom from religion and as such is increasingly denying the rest their freedom of religion. And I suppose we deserve it for not being Christlike in our example of what it means to be disciples of Jesus Christ. The Gentiles are now reaping what they have sown for about four hundred years.

[prisonchaplain]

Christians have been all that you say, marc. Yet, I disagree with those who apologize on behalf of "The Church." Whether that be LDS, or broadly Christian, The Church did not impose slavery on African-Americans. It did not bully LBGT teens. It did not bind gays to fences to die. And, most poignantly, it did not attend gay funerals with signs saying God hates f*gs! Individuals and small groups did such things--yes, in the name of God. Yet, always, there were other Christians opposing these actions.

We cannot and will not bless gay marriages. We cannot bless unrepentant sin. However, given the chance, we'll love our neighbors--including LBGT folks. No group--including Christians--deserves to be less free.

[EmmaLee]

Are the Bishops in this Idaho city going to go to jail and pay fines? The Church says they are not to marry gay couples - the State says they have to. Whose freedom is being infringed on in this situation? Who is at liberty to follow the dictates of their own conscience?

"Consistent with our fundamental beliefs, Church officers will not employ their ecclesiastical authority to perform marriages between two people of the same sex, and the Church does not permit its meetinghouses or other properties to be used for ceremonies, receptions, or other activities associated with same‐sex marriages."

vs.

Coeur d‘Alene, Idaho, city officials have laid down the law to Christian pastors within their community, telling them bluntly via an ordinance that if they refuse to marry homosexuals, they will face jail time and fines.

[EmmaLee]

Christians have been all that you say, marc.

As have ALL groups - ALL religions - ALL ethnicities - ALL races, etc. Near as I can tell, the only group ever, on the face of this earth, who avoided such are the people of Enoch's city (and for awhile, the Nephites after Christ visited here after his resurrection).

[karend77]

Are the Bishops in this Idaho city going to go to jail and pay fines? The Church says they are not to marry gay couples - the State says they have to. Whose freedom is being infringed on in this situation? Who is at liberty to follow the dictates of their own conscience?

"Consistent with our fundamental beliefs, Church officers will not employ their ecclesiastical authority to perform marriages between two people of the same sex, and the Church does not permit its meetinghouses or other properties to be used for ceremonies, receptions, or other activities associated with same‐sex marriages."

vs.

Coeur d‘Alene, Idaho, city officials have laid down the law to Christian pastors within their community, telling them bluntly via an ordinance that if they refuse to marry homosexuals, they will face jail time and fines.

The actual ordinance in question can be viewed by anyone. The link to the specific ordinance is here (Chapter 9.56 DISCRIMINATION IN HOUSING, EMPLOYMENT AND PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS PROHIBITED). In short, the ordinance is a reflection of federal guidelines that prohibit any form of discrimination based on gender, race, ethnicity, religion, etc. There is also a very clear exemption contained in the ordinance which reads as follows:
“A. Notwithstanding any other provision herein, nothing in this chapter is intended to alter or abridge other rights, protections, or privileges secured under state and/or federal law. This chapter shall be construed and applied in a manner consistent with first amendment jurisprudence regarding the freedom of speech and exercise of religion.
“B. This chapter does not apply to:
1. Religious corporations, associations, educational institutions, or societies.
2. An expressive association whose employment of a person protected by this chapter would significantly burden the association’s rights of expressive association under Boy Scouts Of America v. Dale, 530 U.S. 640 (2000).
3. The United States government, any of its departments or agencies, or any corporation wholly owned by it; or the state of Idaho or any of its departments, agencies, or political subdivisions, other than the city of Coeur d’Alene.
“C. This chapter shall not apply: 1) to the rental of a housing accommodation in a building which contains housing accommodations for not more than two (2) families living independently of each other, if the lessor or a member of his family resides in one of the housing accommodations, or 2) to the rental of a room or rooms in a single-family residential housing accommodation by an individual if he or a member of his family resides therein. (Ord. 3466, 2013)”
Readers should clearly note that point “B” lays out the matter of exemptions to this ordinance. Please note that “religious corporations, associations, educational institutions, or societies” are exempt. What this means is that any religious organization (and notice that it does not stipulate that said religious organization must be “non-profit” either), is fully exempt from having to marry people whom they do not want to marry.

http://studygrowknowblog.com/2015/04/27 ... dor-fines/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[EmmaLee]

Here's where I got the information (I appreciate it when people give sources). This may be the case today (that church's are exempt) - highly unlikely it will be the case tomorrow (or in the very near future). The writing is on the wall, and it's not even in cursive. ;)

By Cheryl K. Chumley - The Washington Times - Monday, October 20, 2014

Coeur d‘Alene, Idaho, city officials have laid down the law to Christian pastors within their community, telling them bluntly via an ordinance that if they refuse to marry homosexuals, they will face jail time and fines.

The dictate comes on the heels of a legal battle with Donald and Evelyn Knapp, ordained ministers who own the Hitching Post wedding chapel in the city, but who oppose gay marriage, The Daily Caller reported.

A federal judge recently ruled that the state’s ban on gay marriage was unconstitutional, while the city of Coeur d‘Alene has an ordinance that prevents discrimination based on sexual preference.

The Supreme Court’s recent refusal to take on gay rights’ appeals from five states has opened the doors for same-sex marriages to go forth.

The Knapps were just asked by a gay couple to perform their wedding ceremony, The Daily Caller reported.

“On Friday, a same-sex couple asked to be married by the Knapps, and the Knapps politely declined,” The Daily Signal reported. “The Knapps now face a 180-day jail term and a $1,000 fine for each day they decline to celebrate the same-sex wedding.”

The Alliance Defending Freedom has filed a suit in federal court to stop the city from enforcing the fine and jail sentence, saying in a statement from senior legal counsel Jeremy Tedesco that the government has overstepped its bounds, The Daily Caller reported.

“Many have denied that pastors would ever be forced to perform ceremonies that are completely at odds with their faith, but that’s what is happening here — and it’s happened this quickly,” Mr. Tedersco said, The Daily Caller reported.

But the city sees it differently. As far back as May, city officials were insisting that their ordinance is indeed in line with law.

“If you turn away a gay couple, refuse to provide services for them, then in theory you violated our code, and you’re looking at a potential misdemeanor citation,” said Coeur d‘Alene City Attorney Warren Wilson, to KXLY months ago.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... z3eyd682Ex" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[EmmaLee]

http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/9364" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

COEUR D’ALENE, Idaho – Alliance Defending Freedom attorneys filed a federal lawsuit and a motion for a temporary restraining order Friday to stop officials in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, from forcing two ordained Christian ministers to perform wedding ceremonies for same-sex couples.

City officials told Donald Knapp that he and his wife Evelyn, both ordained ministers who run Hitching Post Wedding Chapel, are required to perform such ceremonies or face months in jail and/or thousands of dollars in fines. The city claims its “non-discrimination” ordinance requires the Knapps to perform same-sex wedding ceremonies now that the courts have overridden Idaho’s voter-approved constitutional amendment that affirmed marriage as the union of a man and a woman.

“The government should not force ordained ministers to act contrary to their faith under threat of jail time and criminal fines,” said ADF Senior Legal Counsel Jeremy Tedesco. “Many have denied that pastors would ever be forced to perform ceremonies that are completely at odds with their faith, but that’s what is happening here – and it’s happened this quickly. The city is on seriously flawed legal ground, and our lawsuit intends to ensure that this couple’s freedom to adhere to their own faith as pastors is protected just as the First Amendment intended.”

“The government exists to protect and respect our freedoms, not attack them,” Tedesco added. “The city cannot erase these fundamental freedoms and replace them with government coercion and intolerance.”

The Hitching Post Wedding Chapel is across the street from the Kootenai County Clerk’s office, which issues marriage licenses. The Knapps, both in their 60s and who themselves have been married for 47 years, began operating the wedding chapel in 1989 as a ministry. They perform religious wedding ceremonies, which include references to God, the invocation of God’s blessing on the union, brief remarks drawn from the Bible designed to encourage the couple and help them to have a successful marriage, and more. They also provide each couple they marry with a CD that includes two sermons about marriage, and they recommend numerous Christian books on the subject. The Knapps charge a small fee for their services.

Coeur d’Alene officials told the Knapps privately and also publicly stated that the couple would violate the city’s public accommodations statute once same-sex marriage became legal in Idaho if they declined to perform a same-sex ceremony at their chapel. On Friday, the Knapps respectfully declined such a ceremony and now face up to 180 days in jail and up to $1,000 in fines for each day they decline to perform that ceremony.

“The city somehow expects ordained pastors to flip a switch and turn off all faithfulness to their God and their vows,” explained ADF Legal Counsel Jonathan Scruggs. “The U.S. Constitution as well as federal and state law clearly stand against that. The city cannot mandate across-the-board conformity to its interpretation of a city ordinance in utter disregard for the guaranteed freedoms Americans treasure in our society.”

Virginia McNulty Robinson, one of nearly 2,500 private attorneys allied with ADF, is serving as local counsel on behalf of the Knapps in Knapp v. City of Coeur d’Alene, filed in the U.S. District Court for the District of Idaho.

Alliance Defending Freedom is an alliance-building, non-profit legal organization that advocates for the right of people to freely live out their faith.

[marc]

Christians have been all that you say, marc. Yet, I disagree with those who apologize on behalf of "The Church." Whether that be LDS, or broadly Christian, The Church did not impose slavery on African-Americans...

I'm going to make a distinction, which is my own. Nobody need agree. To me, the "church" is the body of disciples. It is all of us who believe in and follow Christ, or rather who claim to do so. When you claim that the church did not impose slavery, etc, etc, I agree in a sense, or at least in the sense, which I believe you are making. To me, however, there is the head and there is the body. The head is Jesus Christ. The body is the rest of us. Thus, it was various parts of the body, or rather, the "church" or "Church," if you prefer to capitalize it that did indeed impose slavery, etc. unless there were those in the company of said church who are not disciples and/or believers, whatever denomination. Our society is composed of a wide range of people from all walks of life and beliefs, but not all are of the body of Christ, or the "church."

I suppose in the final analysis, to me, there are "covenant" people and the rest. The Jews called the rest, "gentiles." I do agree that nobody should be less free. Unfortunately we are all plugged in to Babylon where we give a centralized "government" the power to tell us what we can and cannot legally do, although, the "government" is just another body of people no greater than the rest. They are not even the head. We just let them think they are and that is the problem as I see it.

[prisonchaplain]

First, Marc, I respond as I do, in part, because a few well-known ministers have taken this tack of apologizing for the past sins of the church. Their effort is to present as humble and compassionate. However, I fear that in so doing they over-implicate Christians and Christianity, and they give the false impression that homosexual behavior is not so bad in God's eyes. These concerns drive my response. On the other hand, other better-known ministers (probably smarter too) agree with you, so that's something.

To all: A couple of cases you may want to look into. Chaplain Wes Modder is facing "separation with cause" for counseling sailors that gay sex is wrong, and that premarital sex is shameful. After more than 19 years service, he faces the potential of losing his retirement benefits and being kicked out. Perhaps more urgent (and of interest to the BYU communities) is that the solicitor general, when questioned by the Supreme Court on the marriage case, said that Christian schools who do not accommodate married gay students (for housing or admission) would likely face serious legal problems, should gay marriage be declared a Constitutional right. Of course, it won't end with higher education.

[JohnnyL]

Are the Bishops in this Idaho city going to go to jail and pay fines? The Church says they are not to marry gay couples - the State says they have to. Whose freedom is being infringed on in this situation? Who is at liberty to follow the dictates of their own conscience?

"Consistent with our fundamental beliefs, Church officers will not employ their ecclesiastical authority to perform marriages between two people of the same sex, and the Church does not permit its meetinghouses or other properties to be used for ceremonies, receptions, or other activities associated with same‐sex marriages."

vs.

Coeur d‘Alene, Idaho, city officials have laid down the law to Christian pastors within their community, telling them bluntly via an ordinance that if they refuse to marry homosexuals, they will face jail time and fines.

Weird that it's Coeur d'Alene--didn't it used to be a very "anti-government" area?

Anyway, lawsuit time or referendum time.

[David13]

JohnnyL
The problem is liberal democrats, and California liberal democrats, who also believe in socialism, communism, etc.
They spread out, just like cockroaches. And infest even the smallest of little towns, or towns of much size where they move in.
And therefore you end up with what we would believe would be a good town that has gone off it's rocker like much of the country, like all the big cities.
dc

[EmmaLee]

Are the Bishops in this Idaho city going to go to jail and pay fines? The Church says they are not to marry gay couples - the State says they have to. Whose freedom is being infringed on in this situation? Who is at liberty to follow the dictates of their own conscience?

"Consistent with our fundamental beliefs, Church officers will not employ their ecclesiastical authority to perform marriages between two people of the same sex, and the Church does not permit its meetinghouses or other properties to be used for ceremonies, receptions, or other activities associated with same‐sex marriages."

vs.

Coeur d‘Alene, Idaho, city officials have laid down the law to Christian pastors within their community, telling them bluntly via an ordinance that if they refuse to marry homosexuals, they will face jail time and fines.

Weird that it's Coeur d'Alene--didn't it used to be a very "anti-government" area?
Anyway, lawsuit time or referendum time.

I thought that, too, but in talking to one of my sisters who lives in western Idaho, she said all the rebel types live out in the woods and in tiny towns, not anywhere near the bigger towns/cities. Plus, there's been a massive influx of people from California and Oregon to all the cities along western Idaho in the last few years - so that may explain it.

[JohnnyL]

Are the Bishops in this Idaho city going to go to jail and pay fines? The Church says they are not to marry gay couples - the State says they have to. Whose freedom is being infringed on in this situation? Who is at liberty to follow the dictates of their own conscience?

"Consistent with our fundamental beliefs, Church officers will not employ their ecclesiastical authority to perform marriages between two people of the same sex, and the Church does not permit its meetinghouses or other properties to be used for ceremonies, receptions, or other activities associated with same‐sex marriages."
vs.
Coeur d‘Alene, Idaho, city officials have laid down the law to Christian pastors within their community, telling them bluntly via an ordinance that if they refuse to marry homosexuals, they will face jail time and fines.

Weird that it's Coeur d'Alene--didn't it used to be a very "anti-government" area?
Anyway, lawsuit time or referendum time.

I thought that, too, but in talking to one of my sisters who lives in western Idaho, she said all the rebel types live out in the woods and in tiny towns, not anywhere near the bigger towns/cities. Plus, there's been a massive influx of people from California and Oregon to all the cities along western Idaho in the last few years - so that may explain it.

Ahh, I believe that would explain a lot.

[lgr3065]

I would have thought the Church in its recent letters to all the Stakes that are to be discussed in the next few weeks would have addressed some of these concerns. From what has been said on the forums, there has be little discussion, some areas not even permitted. Any questions, go to talk with Bishop. There is pretty of confusion among the members. It appears that minister/bishops should stop marrying and let the state do it. Probably will be in lds arena, marriage will be done by the state and sealing will be done in private

[EmmaLee]

What concerns do you mean? ^^ Where is the confusion?

I definitely agree the Church will have to stop marrying people - probably sooner rather than later. That won't be enough though, and I believe the Church will also have its tax exempt status removed for not providing same-sex married housing at BYU (since BYU accepts federal funds), and for not allowing same-sex sealings in the temple, etc. Although, these other things are probably a few years down the road. Hard to say though.

[SmallFarm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPKofixG6yc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;