How Low Can America Go?

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Sirocco
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by Sirocco »

No no no, that's not the point, I don't prove things to myself like that anyway.
A book of supposed historical records requires historical artifacts, a book of inspired stories...well then no, because that's not what it's saying.
If you expect something to be history you have to back it up as history, if it's not then I can't argue against it because then it just becomes something you believe and I don't.
I often wonder at my extreme lack of faith, at times I've wanted it but it just goes away when my moods change, and they change like the wind.
Maybe it's my cold view of the world and it's people, or the past, or just how I am distrustful of things that seem too good to be true.
I don't know.

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rewcox
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by rewcox »

Sirocco wrote:No no no, that's not the point, I don't prove things to myself like that anyway.
A book of supposed historical records requires historical artifacts, a book of inspired stories...well then no, because that's not what it's saying.
If you expect something to be history you have to back it up as history, if it's not then I can't argue against it because then it just becomes something you believe and I don't.
I often wonder at my extreme lack of faith, at times I've wanted it but it just goes away when my moods change, and they change like the wind.
Maybe it's my cold view of the world and it's people, or the past, or just how I am distrustful of things that seem too good to be true.
I don't know.
Actually it is the point. In religion, Faith comes first. Then the knowledge.

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Sirocco
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by Sirocco »

rewcox wrote:
Sirocco wrote:No no no, that's not the point, I don't prove things to myself like that anyway.
A book of supposed historical records requires historical artifacts, a book of inspired stories...well then no, because that's not what it's saying.
If you expect something to be history you have to back it up as history, if it's not then I can't argue against it because then it just becomes something you believe and I don't.
I often wonder at my extreme lack of faith, at times I've wanted it but it just goes away when my moods change, and they change like the wind.
Maybe it's my cold view of the world and it's people, or the past, or just how I am distrustful of things that seem too good to be true.
I don't know.
Actually it is the point. In religion, Faith comes first. Then the knowledge.
That may be so but I just can't wrap my head around that.

karend77
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by karend77 »

Bee Prepared wrote:Same sex marriage= moral decline, progressing at a rapid pace.

I miss the old America.
I am really tired of everyone complaining and bemoaning and "preparing" for the end of the world. It's such a Jonah mindset. We need to get up off our b**ts and fight for our country. Get involved in politics on a local level, be vocal with your leaders.

"“We are facing all kinds of trouble in our country and in the world. And we have talked about the soldiers that have protected this nation, but I want to spend a few minutes talking to you about our responsibility now to protect this nation,” Beck said. “We are the front line. We are the last line of defense, and if we fail, liberty will be lost.

You want to get fired up watch the video on this link-
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07 ... -stand-up/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

christian.a
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by christian.a »

I'd like to be one to "get up and fight" I used to be really a "let's get to it guy" the sad thing is I feel that my resources and time are wasted because the majority is not in favor of what most of us would be in favor to. I feel like it's fighting against a current that's stronger than you. I'm not saying to lay down and let people give you the beating of a lifetime or let them strip you of your rights, but use your resources wisely, prayerfully.

karend77
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by karend77 »

christian.argyle wrote:I'd like to be one to "get up and fight" I used to be really a "let's get to it guy" the sad thing is I feel that my resources and time are wasted because the majority is not in favor of what most of us would be in favor to. I feel like it's fighting against a current that's stronger than you. I'm not saying to lay down and let people give you the beating of a lifetime or let them strip you of your rights, but use your resources wisely, prayerfully.
Your attitude is typical, sorry.

During the American Revolution, the active forces in the field against England was about 3% of the colonists of which perhaps 10% of the population actively supported them. There was possibly another 20% who agreed but did little or nothing to support it. About 30% of the population sided with the King and then 30-40% took no side and took what came. This is approximate as percentages vary from historians.

History, sadly, is made by determined minorities. So, where are you in this, who shall shape the future of our nation?

Great website about being one on the courageous -http://www.anamericanwarning.com/2014/0 ... percenter/

Bee Prepared
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by Bee Prepared »

karend77 wrote:
Bee Prepared wrote:Same sex marriage= moral decline, progressing at a rapid pace.

I miss the old America.
I am really tired of everyone complaining and bemoaning and "preparing" for the end of the world. It's such a Jonah mindset. We need to get up off our b**ts and fight for our country. Get involved in politics on a local level, be vocal with your leaders.

"“We are facing all kinds of trouble in our country and in the world. And we have talked about the soldiers that have protected this nation, but I want to spend a few minutes talking to you about our responsibility now to protect this nation,” Beck said. “We are the front line. We are the last line of defense, and if we fail, liberty will be lost.

You want to get fired up watch the video on this link-
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07 ... -stand-up/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I agree with you Karen. I haven't just sat on my butt and bemoaned the decline of America, I also agree there's more we need to do.

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captainfearnot
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by captainfearnot »

Bee Prepared wrote:I miss the old America.
When exactly was the old America? Can you put a year on it? Or a decade? According to your chart, American culture peaked in the 1950s. Is that your view, or did you have another time in mind?

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Sirocco
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by Sirocco »

captainfearnot wrote:
Bee Prepared wrote:I miss the old America.
When exactly was the old America? Can you put a year on it? Or a decade? According to your chart, American culture peaked in the 1950s. Is that your view, or did you have another time in mind?
Well if you were white.

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Robin Hood
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by Robin Hood »

karend77 wrote: I am really tired of everyone complaining and bemoaning and "preparing" for the end of the world. It's such a Jonah mindset. We need to get up off our b**ts and fight for our country. Get involved in politics on a local level, be vocal with your leaders.
I used to think this was the answer. I don't anymore.
I believe we need to entirely disengage from politics (I was pleased Romney didn't win) and plough our own furrow.
I admire the JW's for the position they take.
Positions are so polarized now that there is no prospect or appetite for reasonable compromise anymore. It's time to acknowledge that the world will go it's own way and experience the consequences, and we'll go ours.

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Betadynamique
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by Betadynamique »

Sirocco wrote:
rewcox wrote:
Actually it is the point. In religion, Faith comes first. Then the knowledge.
That may be so but I just can't wrap my head around that.
If I explain to you, would you believe the explanation? It's okay, you don't have to, it's not a serious matter, but it's like saying you can prove the moon orbits the earth. Does it? Can you prove it, or did someone teach it to you and you believed it was so? Faith is a gift from God, if faith is something used to create God then that is idolatry, but faith is a way like an investment, it has a return value. Some put faith into church, they receive friendships and other benefits in return. If you have no faith at all, you could not function, everything would be worthless to you, meaningless, you see? So you maybe not want to put faith into religion, could be a bad investment, and for many it is because not everyone is called to it. There was a time hundreds of years ago, if you do not worship the Bishop of Rome as the official representative of God on earth, you get tortured per their beliefs in universal imperialism. Some things change, some things stay the same, no? So here we are.

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Sirocco
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by Sirocco »

Betadynamique wrote:
Sirocco wrote:
rewcox wrote:
Actually it is the point. In religion, Faith comes first. Then the knowledge.
That may be so but I just can't wrap my head around that.
If I explain to you, would you believe the explanation? It's okay, you don't have to, it's not a serious matter, but it's like saying you can prove the moon orbits the earth. Does it? Can you prove it, or did someone teach it to you and you believed it was so? Faith is a gift from God, if faith is something used to create God then that is idolatry, but faith is a way like an investment, it has a return value. Some put faith into church, they receive friendships and other benefits in return. If you have no faith at all, you could not function, everything would be worthless to you, meaningless, you see? So you maybe not want to put faith into religion, could be a bad investment, and for many it is because not everyone is called to it. There was a time hundreds of years ago, if you do not worship the Bishop of Rome as the official representative of God on earth, you get tortured per their beliefs in universal imperialism. Some things change, some things stay the same, no? So here we are.
Yes I can, more so because you can see the moon in its phases and the like, and math and all that stuff.
It's like I can see the sun set every night, how the stars change places in the sky, how gravity works...
While yes someone told me that, I can see it for myself. There is no "belief" in the sun setting every day.
And really it depends on the explanation given and what I can do with it.

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David13
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by David13 »

I don't think it can go any lower than trying to justify sin.
dc

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Deborah
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by Deborah »

David13 wrote:Bee my childhood was much the same.
And I quite agree about the tv. Nothing but garbage and pandering to the prurient interests.
I do want to say tho', that I do not think "we" have gone astray. Yes, it is an extremely high portion of the population. But remember, California, a state filled with more nuts, fruits and perverts of every type, particularly in the government is the state that passed Proposition 8 twice a few years ago.
The church is looking for land in Orange County as the church is growing fast there.
I went to the Los Angeles Temple today and it was crowded.
So there may be hope.
But it seems to be a very overwhelming battle with the evil in this country today, what with the sodomites parading in the street to 'celebrate' their perversions. The situation in the schools, all the media. I don't know when the end will come.
dc
My mom lived in CA for years & was there when prop. 8 passed both times, & then it was taken to the courts. We all know where that went.

This has happened all over the nation. The voice of the people is no longer heard. We have a government & courts who have gone rogue. The Supreme Court no longer upholds the Constitution, which they have sworn to do, but they create law. We have a president who swore to uphold the Constitution, & all he has done is use executive orders to take away our rights. I don't need to go on, but we are in very precarious circumstances.

wargames83
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by wargames83 »

rewcox wrote:
Sirocco wrote:No no no, that's not the point, I don't prove things to myself like that anyway.
A book of supposed historical records requires historical artifacts, a book of inspired stories...well then no, because that's not what it's saying.
If you expect something to be history you have to back it up as history, if it's not then I can't argue against it because then it just becomes something you believe and I don't.
I often wonder at my extreme lack of faith, at times I've wanted it but it just goes away when my moods change, and they change like the wind.
Maybe it's my cold view of the world and it's people, or the past, or just how I am distrustful of things that seem too good to be true.
I don't know.
Actually it is the point. In religion, Faith comes first. Then the knowledge.
If it ever comes at all. There are many religions and people have faith in contradictory things. The common religious principal that "faith" is an intrinsically good thing is one of the major problems I have with religion.

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Sandinista
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by Sandinista »

wargames83 wrote:
Bee Prepared wrote:
Would you?
No. My point is that it is not right to restrict marriage for same sex attracted people to people that they are not sexually attracted to.
The problem with your argument is with the idea that marriage is about attraction based on "sex", which is what the sex driven culture we live in is telling everyone. In reality marriage is not about "sex". I don't have the time or inclination to get into a huge debate about what marriage is. I'll just say that though I love to have "sex" with my wife it isn't the basis for our relationship. I was initially attracted to my wife because of her intellect, personality, and beliefs. I didn't actually meet her in person until we had spent quite some time exchanging letters, e-mails, and then moving to phone calls. I was attracted to her because of the woman that I got to know long before I ever know what she looked like (no I had not even seen a picture). That she is really "hot" (in my opinion) was just icing on the cake when I did finally meet her in person.

When you start to look at "marriage" as a covenant relationship between a son and daughter of God, with all the promise that covenant relationship implies, and not a relationship based on "sexual" attraction you start to view "marriage" in a whole different light.

Mala_Suerte
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by Mala_Suerte »

wargames83 wrote:
Bee Prepared wrote:
Would you?
No. My point is that it is not right to restrict marriage for same sex attracted people to people that they are not sexually attracted to.
So you're saying that we should not put any limits on marriage b/c it's wrong to require people to marry someone they are not sexually attracted to?

That puts us squarely on the slippery slope. What if two sisters are only sexually attracted to each other and not any other male or female - should they be able to marry? What if a daughter is only sexually attracted to her father? Your theory opens Pandora's box.

Same sex "marriage" is not about obtaining equal rights under the law as most supporters claim. Most states, for a number of years, have had laws in effect so that a same sex partner was legally treated the same as a spouse. For example, you could put them on your insurance, they could inherit your property, etc.

Regarding the change in society, President Benson stated, back in '89, that the world would become black or white - there would no longer be shades of gray. His words have been fulfilled.

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captainfearnot
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by captainfearnot »

How low can America go?

Seems like the easiest way to answer that question would be to read a history book.

We could legalize slavery. We could legalize sweatshops, child labor, indentured servitude. We could set up internment camps for the Japanese. We could cheat on virtually every deal we cut with the Native Americans. We could we disenfranchise everyone but white male landowners. We could enable folks like McCarthy in their political witch hunts. We could promote eugenics. Etc.

Turns out we can go pretty low.

carbon dioxide
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by carbon dioxide »

wargames83 wrote:
Bee Prepared wrote:Same sex marriage= moral decline, progressing at a rapid pace.
In fact sames-sex marriage and being accepted into the mainstream in general could help gay people become more monogamous.
1. Maybe for Lesbians but guys are more naturally inclined to cheat than women. So two gay guys doubles the risk that at least one of them will cheat.

2. Does it really matter if gay people are more monogamous? Wickedness is wickedness even if the people involved are faithful in their wickedness.

wargames83
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by wargames83 »

captainfearnot wrote:How low can America go?

Seems like the easiest way to answer that question would be to read a history book.

We could legalize slavery. We could legalize sweatshops, child labor, indentured servitude. We could set up internment camps for the Japanese. We could cheat on virtually every deal we cut with the Native Americans. We could we disenfranchise everyone but white male landowners. We could enable folks like McCarthy in their political witch hunts. We could promote eugenics. Etc.

Turns out we can go pretty low.
Awesome post. Those who keep going on and on about how everything is getting worse definitely have a limited view of history and are looking at things only one way.

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MormonPatriot
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by MormonPatriot »

wargames83 wrote:
Bee Prepared wrote:Same sex marriage= moral decline, progressing at a rapid pace.
No it doesn't. In fact sames-sex marriage and being accepted into the mainstream in general could help gay people become more monogamous.
Bee Prepared wrote: I miss the old America.
How old are you talking here? Go back far enough and you will reach the days when state governors could sign death warrants against Mormons. You could try to appeal to the Federal government to for protection from a state that is trying to kill you but the President would just say,"‘Gentlemen, your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you". Ah, good old states rights in action! There's nothing like the good old days, right?
Bee Prepared wrote: Prayer in school was common, immorality wasn't
Teen pregnancies have gone down considerably since the early 90s (though it is still pretty high throughout much of the South and Southwest). http://www.hhs.gov/ash/oah/adolescent-h ... rends.html
Bee Prepared wrote: , there were no condom machines in the bathrooms. Every day at school started with the pledge of allegiance.
Better talk to Ezra if you think reciting the pledge is a good thing. Do you really want your kids reciting something written by socialist?

Bee Prepared wrote: We are now on the brink of economic disaster, illegals flooding into our country, children being taught in school that homosexuality is a normal lifestyle, and not accepting it is intolerant and small minded. How have we gone this far astray?
Strange that they are taught that homosexuality is a lifestyle rather than a sexual orientation. Are you sure you got that right?
Bee Prepared wrote: I remember my Father working hard to support our family, teaching us that accepting government handouts was a disgrace.
Yes, it is disgrace when someone who could work chooses not to and takes government handouts instead, but it also a disgrace that we let the handicapped, disabled, mentally ill, and other genuinely unemployed people live out in the streets in hunger.
What is this garbage?

Your mind has been poisoned my friend.

Please, get on your knees and starting praying again. Study the scriptures.

Go talk to your Bishop.

I will pray for you.

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MormonPatriot
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by MormonPatriot »

Bee, I am with you 100%. When I was a kids we all knew that being gay was a sin, that is why people kept it to themselves...they were ashamed.

Now even some in the church claim that people are born that way....BULLOCKS

If it was not for the wisdom and guidance of those 15 Prophets at the top, I cannot even imagine where my Church would be today.

Stay strong Bee and don't let those deceived by the serpent bully you.

Lizzy60
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by Lizzy60 »

MormonPatriot wrote:Bee, I am with you 100%. When I was a kids we all knew that being gay was a sin, that is why people kept it to themselves...they were ashamed.

Now even some in the church claim that people are born that way....BULLOCKS

If it was not for the wisdom and guidance of those 15 Prophets at the top, I cannot even imagine where my Church would be today.

Stay strong Bee and don't let those deceived by the serpent bully you.
FYI, the leadership of the Church now agree that some people are "born that way."

Also, Bee has been banned from the forum, so she is able to read your comment addressed to her, but she will not be able to respond. I just want to make sure you don't get your feelings hurt if she seems to be ignoring your support.

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MormonPatriot
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by MormonPatriot »

Lizzy60 wrote:
MormonPatriot wrote:Bee, I am with you 100%. When I was a kids we all knew that being gay was a sin, that is why people kept it to themselves...they were ashamed.

Now even some in the church claim that people are born that way....BULLOCKS

If it was not for the wisdom and guidance of those 15 Prophets at the top, I cannot even imagine where my Church would be today.

Stay strong Bee and don't let those deceived by the serpent bully you.
FYI, the leadership of the Church now agree that some people are "born that way."

Also, Bee has been banned from the forum, so she is able to read your comment addressed to her, but she will not be able to respond. I just want to make sure you don't get your feelings hurt if she seems to be ignoring your support.

Has one of the 15 Prophets said it? I doubt it.

Out of curiosity, why was she banned?

samizdat
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Re: How Low Can America Go?

Post by samizdat »

Elder Holland referenced a person that suffered from same sex attraction that did make it to the promised land.

So no, not born that way.

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