How Low Can America Go?

[wargames83]

My only point is that if two gay men live together committedly all their lives and have sex only with the other, it's the same grievous sin as when one guy goes through his life having sex with ten guys or a hundred guys or a thousand guys. To my mind, homosexual activity does not have a "well at least this is better than that" characteristic barring lack of consent or outside entanglements. Obviously age and willing consent matter, as well as if one of the guys is married to a woman, that's adultery and is worse to my mind. Gay people can't be married for God's purposes, so gay marriage doesn't exist outside of the idiotic laws of man.

So basically there is no place in the LDS church for a gay of lesbian person with an active sex drive and/or desire for a romantic relationship to be happy and not be condemned. I think that is sad. The church has really painted itself in a corner on this issue I my opinion.

[Lizzy60]

^^^^^^^^This reasoning expressed by wargames83 is, in my ever-so-humble opinion, why the Church(tm) will keep moving down the slippery slope until gay marriage is no longer considered a sin. Of course, I believe God will always consider it a sin.

My grandmother believed interracial marriage (especially to a black-skinned person) would doom a participant to hell. She could quote support for this from various Apostles and First Presidency men.

Some younger people no doubt believe they will be saying the same thing about my beliefs, as I'm saying about my grandmother......

[skmo]

So basically there is no place in the LDS church for a gay of lesbian person with an active sex drive and/or desire for a romantic relationship to be happy and not be condemned. I think that is sad. The church has really painted itself in a corner on this issue I my opinion.

There is a place for them. On the pew next to me or in front of me or behind me obeying the same commandments I do and repenting the same as I do when I sin and trying to live the gospel more fully. If that means a person is going to have to be celibate all their lives (or sin and repent - realizing it has to be true repentance) then that is their choice. The LDS Church doesn't make the commandments: God does. We simply do the best we can to obey them. Some of us fail rather dramatically. We keep trying.

[wargames83]

There is a place for them. On the pew next to me or in front of me or behind me obeying the same commandments I do and repenting the same as I do when I sin and trying to live the gospel more fully.

Okay so far just like you

If that means a person is going to have to be celibate all their lives (or sin and repent - realizing it has to be true repentance) then that is their choice.

Now it is no longer just like you. Straight people in the Church are not expected to be celibate all their lives.

The LDS Church doesn't make the commandments: God does.

That is the claim anyway. As Thomas Paine said in Age of Reason someone claiming to receive divine revelation is just hearsay to everyone else.

[skmo]

Now it is no longer just like you. Straight people in the Church are not expected to be celibate all their lives.

Yes, it is. It means that I have to practice the Law of Chastity the same as everyone else. I may have sex with my wife and no one else regardless of their gender. Does bum me out, but I accept and live it because it's a commandment.

That is the claim anyway. As Thomas Paine said in Age of Reason someone claiming to receive divine revelation is just hearsay to everyone else.

That's not the dumbest thing I've heard, but it's up there among the higher end. If you don't believe the revelations our prophets and apostles have received, why would you be a member of the church? If you're not a member of the church, why go to a discussion board where LDS people are discussing freedom from the LDS point of view?

[Sunain]

Same sex marriage= moral decline, progressing at a rapid pace.

I miss the old America.

One can't even watch television without being exposed to sexually explicit pseudo porn, even or especially in the commercials. I can't believe what I see! The Sears catalog was about as sexually explicit as anyone could find. :ymblushing:

Prayer in school was common, immorality wasn't, there were no condom machines in the bathrooms. Every day at school started with the pledge of allegiance. We are now on the brink of economic disaster, illegals flooding into our country, children being taught in school that homosexuality is a normal lifestyle, and not accepting it is intolerant and small minded. How have we gone this far astray?

How Low Can America Go? Obviously a lot lower as we're all still here O:-)

There are a lot worse off places in the world currently than the United States. I do agree we have to be even more careful watching TV now more than ever. Sometimes I'll read the synopsis or episode reviews before watching these days even though it can be a bit of a spoiler but they flash stuff up or put stuff in the episodes unexpectedly these days that you can't even fast foward or skip. Every show now also seems to make it a specific point to put gay people in the show.

We are starting to be forced to accept homosexuality now regardless of our beliefs which I don't like. Yes, they have their rights, but don't infringe upon my right to disagree with homosexuality.

[captainfearnot]

^^^^^^^^This reasoning expressed by wargames83 is, in my ever-so-humble opinion, why the Church(tm) will keep moving down the slippery slope until gay marriage is no longer considered a sin. Of course, I believe God will always consider it a sin.

My grandmother believed interracial marriage (especially to a black-skinned person) would doom a participant to hell. She could quote support for this from various Apostles and First Presidency men.

Some younger people no doubt believe they will be saying the same thing about my beliefs, as I'm saying about my grandmother......

I can't quite figure out how to interpret this.

On the one hand you appear to be saying something quite insightful, that every generation believes that God shares its own beliefs and biases.

On the other hand, while acknowledging that every generation does the same thing, you still seem to claim that yours is the only one that is right to do so. In other words, in order to be in agreement with God, your grandparents would have had to be much more tolerant that the times they lived in, including the church. By the same token, in order to be in agreement with God, your grandchildren will have to be much less tolerant than the times they live in, including the church. But your generation happens to have it just right. You were lucky enough to be born in that singular window in history when the church was right in line with God on these issues, and so you don't have to make the great mental and spiritual sacrifices that would be required of your grandparents and grandchildren in order to arrive at correct beliefs. You can just believe what is easiest and most comfortable to believe, with every confidence that your position matches God's. Call it the Goldilocks Generation.

Do I have that right?

[Lizzy60]

I never claimed that any particular generation has it "right." I didn't state what my belief is on interracial marriage. I actually don't know, as I haven't found it necessary to ask God that question.

If you study church history in detail, you will find that the Brethren have almost always followed social dictates, in some cases lagging behind, but eventually evolving their views. As we have become a worldwide church, this has become even more apparent. It's hard to soundly denouce socialism while so many members live happily under socialistic laws. It's impossible to denouce government entitlement programs, like earlier church authorities did, when you are not prepared, or willing, to provide the monetary aid that members need, and get from the government.

Times change, yes, and I honestly don't know how much of the change the Church makes is the will of God, and how much is the necessity of running and managing a billion-dollar business enterprise.

[captainfearnot]

Okay. You did say that (of course) you believe that God will always consider gay marriage to be a sin. And you seemed to draw a parallel with your grandmother's belief about interracial marriage being a sin. I guess I assumed that meant you disagreed with her, as you expect future generations to disagree with you on gay marriage. I apologize if I misunderstood your position.

I agree with you, we are all products of the prevailing thinking of our times and places, the church included. And since that thinking changes over time, the church necessarily changes with it. So either God changes along with it as well, or else the church has been/will be in line with God at only one point in its history.

Assuming God doesn't change, it seems to me that this point of congruence would either come at the beginning or the end, rather than somewhere in the middle. Either the church and God were on the same page at the restoration, and have been gradually parting ways ever since, or else the restoration has been a work in progress and we have been inching closer and closer to congruence over time.

But I do think it's human nature to believe that congruence occurred right in the prime of our own lives, whenever that may have been. That's what "feels" right to all of us. That's what I read in your post above, but maybe I'm projecting my own views onto you.