Freedom thought for the day

[believer]

Benjamin Franklin--
"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
(Smyth, Writings of Benjamin Franklin, 9:569.)

[Chloroforminprint]

I love this idea. At BYU there was a history professor that did American Heritage, forget his name, who pointed out that the argument over market vs. planned economies is based on a faulty premise.

The issue with societies is not that we should assume they are fallen and how can we make system that is resistant to being gamed. Any system can be, eventually. The issue is that economics and "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" ends up being about economic growth and giving everyone a chance to seek to be superior to others rather than about promoting good values and seeking to help everyone become more self-sufficient, temporally and morally.

[believer]

Thanks Chloro. I appreciate that.

[believer]

"Literary power and statesmanship were combined in George Washington, the greatest political leader of his time and also the greatest intellectual and moral force of the Revolutionary period. Everybody knows Washington as a quiet member of the Virginia Assembly of the two Continental Congresses, and of the Constitutional Convention. Few people realize that he was also the most voluminous American writer of his period and that his principles of government have had more influence on the development of the American commmonwealth than those of any other man."
Noah Webster, 1828

[believer]

" Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens.... Let it simply be asked, where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education...reason and experience both forbid as to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
( From George Washington's Farewell Address)

[lundbaek]

How is it that a religion that includes learning and abiding by the principles of the US Constitution "in the tradition of the Founding Fathers" turns out so many members who do not understand the principles of the Constitution, and do not understand their doctrinal imperative to learn and abide by them ?

[ajax]

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." - H. L. Mencken

[David13]

How is it that a religion that includes learning and abiding by the principles of the US Constitution "in the tradition of the Founding Fathers" turns out so many members who do not understand the principles of the Constitution, and do not understand their doctrinal imperative to learn and abide by them ?

You ought to see the other churches, what they turn out. Like, for instance, the Catholic Church.
dc

[lundbaek]

The other churches do not have a doctrinal imperative to preserve liberty. I guess I can be patient with them. They have never, as far as I know, been told by a latter-day prophet anything like "We,... MUST be vigilant in doing our part to preserve the Constitution and safeguard the way of life it makes possible.", "We MUST learn the principles of the Constitution and then abide by its precepts." and "We MUST learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers."

[Desert Roses]

The other churches do not have a doctrinal imperative to preserve liberty. I guess I can be patient with them. They have never, as far as I know, been told by a latter-day prophet anything like "We,... MUST be vigilant in doing our part to preserve the Constitution and safeguard the way of life it makes possible.", "We MUST learn the principles of the Constitution and then abide by its precepts." and "We MUST learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers."

Does that apply to Latter-day Saints in Korea? How about Mexico? Guatemala? Liberia? Russia? Ukraine? Argentina? You get the point. Most Latter-day Saints now live outside the United States, to which this quote applies. It is not a CHURCH or gospel mandate.

[lundbaek]

Nearly 28 years ago, during the October 1987 Church General Conference, the Prophet, Ezra Taft Benson, told Latter-day Saints that "we must learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers." I note his use of the word "must". Earlier that same year, 1987, we were admonished: "We, as Latter-day Saints, MUST be vigilant in doing our part to preserve the Constitution and safeguard the way of life it makes possible." and "We MUST learn the principles of the Constitution and then abide by its precepts." As far as I know, the instructions have never been repealed in any way by a subsequent Prophet. I believe the principles are meant to apply to all people, not just Americans. And I've talked with many European Church members who understand and appreciate those principles.

According to statements in the Doctrine and Covenants and recorded statements especially of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, Melvin J. Ballard, J. Reuben Clark, Harold B. Lee, and Ezra Taft Benson, it appears that God committed to Americans the task of learning and upholding the principles of the US Constitution as it was intended to be understood by the Lord such that by example those principles would reverberate to other nations where people would desire to live by its precepts and choose to be governed by them, and those principles would be established forever. That appears to have been the wish. Interesting it is that those statements were given specifically to Latter-day Saints.

[samizdat]

Nearly 28 years ago, during the October 1987 Church General Conference, the Prophet, Ezra Taft Benson, told Latter-day Saints that "we must learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers." I note his use of the word "must". Earlier that same year, 1987, we were admonished: "We, as Latter-day Saints, MUST be vigilant in doing our part to preserve the Constitution and safeguard the way of life it makes possible." and "We MUST learn the principles of the Constitution and then abide by its precepts." As far as I know, the instructions have never been repealed in any way by a subsequent Prophet. I believe the principles are meant to apply to all people, not just Americans. And I've talked with many European Church members who understand and appreciate those principles.

According to statements in the Doctrine and Covenants and recorded statements especially of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, Melvin J. Ballard, J. Reuben Clark, Harold B. Lee, and Ezra Taft Benson, it appears that God committed to Americans the task of learning and upholding the principles of the US Constitution as it was intended to be understood by the Lord such that by example those principles would reverberate to other nations where people would desire to live by its precepts and choose to be governed by them, and those principles would be established forever. That appears to have been the wish. Interesting it is that those statements were given specifically to Latter-day Saints.

Yes, it is an admonishment for Americans to remember the Consitution. It is an admonishment for others, to learn of its principles...you are right that that has never been rescinded. But because the Church is more global now, we won't hear much of the Constitution in a General Conference setting, and that has caused many American members to fall asleep, as if to say, "The Constitution mustn't be so important now because no one talks about it anymore".

[lundbaek]

The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants reveal the design and will of God Re. the political liberty of "all flesh". They reveal that liberty and agency are etermal doctrines of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And almost every prophet in this dispensation has emphasized the importance of defending, upholding, and adhering to the Constitution and its principles. However, at this time there are people in positions of power in the United States and in other nations who are very much opposed to government by the principles of the US Constitution, and also in positions from which they could effect retribution against the Church if it promoted understanding of and government by the principles of the Constitution. I believe that is the main reason we no longer hear and read statements from 50 East North Temple St. about the vital role freedom plays in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is now more up to us to learn of this by careful study of the scriptures.

[believer]

Samuel Adams:

"The sum of all is, if we would most truly enjoy the gift of Heaven, let us become a virtuous people; then shall we both deserve and enjoy it. While, on the other hand, if we are universally vicious and debauched in our manners, though the form of our Constitution carries the face of the most exalted freedom, we shall in reality be the most abject slaves."
(Wells, Life of Samuel Adams, 1:22-23.)

[believer]

--George Washington, 1792
"I am sure there never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe, that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God, who is alone able to protect them."
(The Writings of George Washington, by John C. Fitzpatrick, GPO, 1931-44. Vol. 32:2.)

[believer]

John Adams: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
(The Works of John Adams, Boston: Little Brown Co., 1851. 4:31.)

[lundbaek]

John Adams and Thomas Jefferson reportedly quarreled over which of the two of them would write the Declaration of Independence, and Adams gave three reason why he felt he should not: “Reason first – You are a Virginian, and a Virginian ought to appear at the head of this business. Reason second – I am obnoxious, suspected, and unpopular. You are very much otherwise. Reason third – You can write ten times better than I can.”

My source: "The Making Of America" by W. Cleon Skousen

[Sirocco]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RArGl2vkGI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[marc]

John Adams and Thomas Jefferson reportedly quarreled over which of the two of them would write the Declaration of Independence, and Adams gave three reason why he felt he should not: “Reason first – You are a Virginian, and a Virginian ought to appear at the head of this business. Reason second – I am obnoxious, suspected, and unpopular. You are very much otherwise. Reason third – You can write ten times better than I can.”

My source: "The Making Of America" by W. Cleon Skousen

Is it weird that I pictured Paul Giamatti talking as I read that quote? :p

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472027/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[KMCopeland]

How is it that a religion that includes learning and abiding by the principles of the US Constitution "in the tradition of the Founding Fathers" turns out so many members who do not understand the principles of the Constitution, and do not understand their doctrinal imperative to learn and abide by them ?

If you could allow for the possibility that you're the one who's got this wrong, instead of "so many members," you might feel a little bit better about them.

How do you figure you and a handful of fellow LDS Birchers are the only ones in the Church who understand their responsibilities to the Constitution?

[KMCopeland]

John Adams and Thomas Jefferson reportedly quarreled over which of the two of them would write the Declaration of Independence, and Adams gave three reason why he felt he should not: “Reason first – You are a Virginian, and a Virginian ought to appear at the head of this business. Reason second – I am obnoxious, suspected, and unpopular. You are very much otherwise. Reason third – You can write ten times better than I can.”

My source: "The Making Of America" by W. Cleon Skousen

Is it weird that I pictured Paul Giamatti talking as I read that quote? :p

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472027/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Great mini-series.

[believer]

George Washington (1788): "We may, with a kind of pious and grateful exultation, trace the fingers of Providence through those dark and mysterious events which first induced the states to appoint a general convention, and then led them one after another...into an adoption of the system recommended by that by general convention, thereby, in all human probability, laying a lasting foundation for tranquility and happiness, when we had but too much reason to fear that confusion and misery were coming rapidly upon us. That the same good Providence may still continue to protect us, and prevent us from dashing the cup of national felicity just as it has been lifted to our lips, is {my} earnest prayer."
The Writings of George Washington, by John C. Fitzpatrick, GPO, 1931-44, Vol. 30:22.)

[KMCopeland]

“On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country” -- Boy Scouts of America

[Fiannan]

How is it that a religion that includes learning and abiding by the principles of the US Constitution "in the tradition of the Founding Fathers" turns out so many members who do not understand the principles of the Constitution, and do not understand their doctrinal imperative to learn and abide by them ?

You ought to see the other churches, what they turn out. Like, for instance, the Catholic Church.
dc

Agreed. Been to the Vatican a few times and did not return with any positive vibes.

[Sirocco]

“On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country” -- Boy Scouts of America

Here we say God and the Queen (or the King if there is one)