Poll: illegal immigration

Discussion of principles relating to God's Law, Agency, Freedom, Liberty, the US constitution, and the Proper Role of Government.

Are you for...

Deportation
39
54%
Amnesty
6
8%
Something in between
27
38%
 
Total votes: 72

lundbaek
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby lundbaek » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:43 pm

I don't think the "Elders of Israel" are prepared to step forward and save the Constitution. If they were to try, there would be all kinds of disagreements over what is constitutional and what is unconstitutional. For example,many Mormons with whom I have discussed constitutional issues think case law takes precedence over original intent, and what the Supreme Court says in constitutional is constitutional even it it violates the Constitution as worded now. Just look at all the unconstitutional actions and programs that Mitt Romney supported.

Many Mormons maintain that until the Prophet tells us what to do Re. the Constitution we should not get involved with it. Then consider how much good all the preaching by Presidents McKay, Clark, Romney, and Benson did.

It's a pretty discouraging situation, but all I can do is try to educate younger people who might be among the "remnant" that does in fact restore the Constitution as prophesied.

I cannot urge members strongly enough to suggest to their bishops and stake presidents that even a few minutes be taken in sacrament meeting or a stake conference to instruct or remind members of our doctrinal imperative to preserve liberty. My multiple suggestions to both bishops and stake presidents have been rejected, but at least they know from me if from no one else that there was a time when latter-day Prophets gave us some pretty strong words about our duty to the Constitution.

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light-one
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby light-one » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:07 pm

They can be convinced to self deport if hiring an illegal is considered treason and punishable by death after a very speedy trial. Add a bounty of $500 for every illegal turned in dead or alive. I imagine they would head back south to draw graffiti, deal drugs, and rape.

lundbaek
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby lundbaek » Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:29 pm

It should be obvious by now that the people in control of our FedGov (latter-day gadiantons) have every intention of fomenting continued illegal immigration and migration of so-called refugees into America. What is even more difficult for most to understand is the reason for all this.

The planned new world order (world government) can really only come together after the United States is reduced to a shambles and is out of the way. A vital, economically strong, Christian United States would have at its disposal the spiritual and material force to prohibit a worldwide satanic dictatorship from incorporating the United States into the NWO. Consequently, the great effort to destroy the United States

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby markharr » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:00 am

I think this is fulfilment of scripture. For the most part we are a wicked people. This land was reserved for the righteous. Since we are no longer righteous we are being invaded.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby lundbaek » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:54 am

I guess my nest question is should we welcome the invaders, as many Americans (including Mormons) are doing, should we just turn a blind eye to the invasion, or should we do what we can to "repel boarders" and at least do what we can to "suffer not" that the "murderous combination" shall get above us?

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby markharr » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:23 am

lundbaek wrote:I guess my nest question is should we welcome the invaders, as many Americans (including Mormons) are doing, should we just turn a blind eye to the invasion, or should we do what we can to "repel boarders" and at least do what we can to "suffer not" that the "murderous combination" shall get above us?

Those who have criminal records or that commit crimes beyond the crime they have already commited by crossing our borders illegaly should be deported for sure. I don't know the answer for the rest. I like to think that maybe there is some of gods plan in this by allowing some of his faithful servents to get a little closer to zion before the tribulaitons start.

That last statement doesn't mean that I support what our current president, and other politicians are doing with our borders.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby skmo » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:46 am

lundbaek wrote:How do you reply to the cry that we need to be loving and chartable...
By explaining that sometimes you express love by holding someone's hand, and sometimes you express it by slapping their hand. I've experienced both, I've employed both. If your body has an infection, sometimes you take medicine to heal. Sometimes to need surgery to remove the infection before the healing can occur.
Governments don’t live together, people live together. With governments you don’t always get a fair word or a fair fight. Well I’ve come here to give you either one - Or get either one from you.

lundbaek
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby lundbaek » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:47 am

I believe that God's original plan, which I'm sure He knew would fail, was for both the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the principles of liberty as incorporated in the US Constitution would be espoused and complied with to the extent that they would reverberate to other nations where people would desire to live by their precepts and choose to be governed by them, and those principles would eventually apply to "all flesh" and "be established forever". It is my understanding that the prophesies about the "remnant of the House of Jacob" and the "House of Jacob" wreaking havoc among the "Gentiles" are to apply only if the Gentiles fail to live righteously enough, which I believe is the actual case now.

I believe many Mormons think we should support and encourage this mass migration and the wreaking havoc among us because it is the will of the Lord. The Lord may let it happen, but I believe it is evil and certainly not what the Lord originally wanted.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby GeeR » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:18 pm

lundbaek wrote:I believe that God's original plan, which I'm sure He knew would fail, was for both the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the principles of liberty as incorporated in the US Constitution would be espoused and complied with to the extent that they would reverberate to other nations where people would desire to live by their precepts and choose to be governed by them, and those principles would eventually apply to "all flesh" and "be established forever". It is my understanding that the prophesies about the "remnant of the House of Jacob" and the "House of Jacob" wreaking havoc among the "Gentiles" are to apply only if the Gentiles fail to live righteously enough, which I believe is the actual case now.

I believe many Mormons think we should support and encourage this mass migration and the wreaking havoc among us because it is the will of the Lord. The Lord may let it happen, but I believe it is evil and certainly not what the Lord originally wanted.
I have a different take on those scriptures about the seed of Jacob tearing through the Gentiles like a lion than practically everyone else in this church. Whilst all believe it is the Lamanites that will execute the blood bath I believe it will be the Ephraimites that will accomplish the deed.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby lundbaek » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:14 pm

Certainly worth considering, GeeR. Could you please tell us how the Ephrainites fit into this.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby markharr » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:54 am

Speaking of immigration. Can someone please explain to me why we are allowing a false prophet who isn't a citizen of this nation, let alone an elected representative to lecture us on immigration, and the death penalty?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ntiff.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby lundbaek » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:22 pm

The Pope is openly supportive of immigration into the USA and amnesty. I believe he is also supportive of the globalist agenda.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby samizdat » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:53 pm

markharr wrote:Speaking of immigration. Can someone please explain to me why we are allowing a false prophet who isn't a citizen of this nation, let alone an elected representative to lecture us on immigration, and the death penalty?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ntiff.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Be careful what you wish for. The Pope is regarded by 70 million Catholics in the United States as the Vicar of Christ, over four times the GLOBAL population of Mormons that recognize Thomas S. Monson as a Prophet of God.

As a religious leader he has the absolute RIGHT to speak out on issues that concern him the most. He happens to be from Latin America. He happens to have come to power during the Juan Peron dictatorship which was definitely leftist (opposed to the rightest dictatorship of Agustin Pinochet).

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby samizdat » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:56 pm

The Church's immigration plan is there for everybody to see. The Church does NOT encourage people enter illegally nor visa overstays. The Church though DOES support plans that would not divide up the family. You will NEVER be able to deport an illegal immigrant population of 11 million nor build a wall to keep them out.

You have airplanes, drones, helicopters to go over any wall and tunnels to go under any wall. And the Mexican ingenuity of constructing a 51 foot ladder to go over a 50 foot high wall.

As long as current labor conditions exist there is going to be an invariable flow of migrants from poorer areas to richer areas. That is what is going on in Europe, and what is going on in the USA.

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skmo
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby skmo » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:02 pm

markharr wrote:Speaking of immigration. Can someone please explain to me why we are allowing a false prophet who isn't a citizen of this nation, let alone an elected representative to lecture us on immigration, and the death penalty?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ntiff.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I can explain it very simply:

The fruits of the Catholic Church throughout history speak volumes about those who lead it. If you need further information on this, try "The Great Apostasy" by James Talmage.
Governments don’t live together, people live together. With governments you don’t always get a fair word or a fair fight. Well I’ve come here to give you either one - Or get either one from you.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby carbon dioxide » Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:30 pm

ajax wrote:I am for the full dismantling of the welfare/warfare state, thus making immigration a non-issue.
One does not need to round up the illegal aliens. Treat the situation like a campground with a bear problem. Get rid of the things that attract the bears, they will leave. Get rid of the government benefits, the free education, and enforce the employment laws, they will deport themselves.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby GeeR » Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:54 pm

lundbaek wrote:Certainly worth considering, GeeR. Could you please tell us how the Ephrainites fit into this.
Lundbaek, after a little homework I have an answer. Basically, Bruce R. McConkie says this prophecy in the Book of Mormon concerning the remnant of Jacob going through the Gentiles as a lion through a flock of sheep to tear them apart is NOT A LOCAL EVENT by the offspring of Lehi concerning American Gentiles but it IS A GENERAL SIMILITUDE concerning the destruction of ALL Gentile nations through the world at Christ’s second coming due to their wickedness and rejection of the restored gospel. It’s taken from Micah 5:8-14. McConkie says: “Except for a few who are the humble followers of Christ, the Gentiles will not repent. They will revel in their abominations and sin against the restored gospel, and they will be burned by the brightness of our Lord’s coming while the righteous—here called the remnant of Jacob—shall abide the day. AND THEN, IN THE PROPHETIC IMAGERY, IT WILL BE AS THOUGH the remnant of Israel overthrew their enemies as a young lion among the flocks of sheep.” (The Millennial Messiah: The Second Coming of the Son of Man [1982], 248; see also p.242; Mortal Messiah 4:334-37.)

The words of Joseph Fielding Smith are congruent with McConkie’s words, said he: “He also said that if the gentiles, not only upon this land, but also of all lands, did not repent he would bring the fulness of the gospel from among them. The remnant of the house of Israel spoken of in First Nephi, chapter 13, and Third Nephi, chapters 16, 20, and 21, does not have reference only to the descendants of Lehi, but to all the house of Israel, the children of Jacob, those upon this land and those in other lands. Reference to the gentiles also is to all the gentiles on this land and in other lands.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2: 247-248.)

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby lundbaek » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:48 pm

Thank you, GeeR, for the explanation and for the awareness of the homework that I need to do on this subject.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby freedomforall » Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:45 am

This article is too long to post. Those interested may find it educational.

The Mormon Church and Illegal Immigration

http://cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/arti ... ration.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
GUESS WHO

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

To the very best of my recollection...I don't remember!

lundbaek
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby lundbaek » Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:43 pm

I have for some years now been very much concerned about immigration into the United States because of the influence many immigrants have exerted toward the transitioning of this nation from a constitutional republic, which I highly appreciate, into a centralized socialist state like those from which many of the immigrants come from. I believe I am on the Lord's side in wanting and working to retain our constitutional republic as it was intended to be maintained. I also believe that if lots more Americans had in past understood and tried to uphold the principles of the original US Constitution, most of the government-caused grief we are experiencing now would not exist.

I think that once immigrants are in the United States, legally or illegally, we have a divinely mandated obligation to treat them with civility, yet in accordance with U.S. Immigration and other laws. But it seems to me that the Lord, acting thru His Prophet and Apostles, may be enabling many of those here illegally to remain here. I may be wrong about this, but I calls 'em as I sees 'em. The actions of a number of local Church authorities in the greater Phoenix, AZ area seem to have convinced many members here that amnesty and open borders are the Lord's will. And I don't think that is going to change anytime soon.

What I would like to see and would strongly support is a program run by the Church to instruct new immigrants in the history of the United States and in the form of government which the Lord obviously intended this country to have. I think that there is plenty enuf scripture in the Book of Mormon and in the Doctrine of Covenants, and probably in other books of scripture as well, to get off to a good start in that direction. I would like to see that followed up with instruction in statements by latter-day prophets and apostles about the history of the founding of the United States and the writing of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and about how the U.S. Government is supposed to work. For Church members that should be well enuf to get them on their way to awareness of what the Lord intended the United Sates to be: a land from which both the gospel and the desire for liberty to reverberate to other nations.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby harakim » Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:31 pm

Rural America is one of the last bastions of freedom around the world. It is the last line of defense for freedom and the only thing holding several other countries in check. The balance is slowly moving in favor of the large city / large government people who are out of touch with the reality of how the world works. When America falls, so will the rest of the world. Most of the illegal immigrants are coming from countries where freedom is a foreign concept. We need to be able to restrict the number of people who don't understand the American way of life to the amount that can be assimilated. I think we are blowing past that threshold.

To abelchirino's point, I don't really care what happens to the economy. I want restore freedom throughout the world more than I want to have easy access to 65" TVs. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby freedomforall » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:23 am

Van Flips and 28 Illegal Immigrants Jump Out
GUESS WHO

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

To the very best of my recollection...I don't remember!

lundbaek
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby lundbaek » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:57 pm

It is not uncommon for motor vehicle accidents here in Arizona to involve a vehicle carrying any number of illegal immigrants sneaking into the country. The MSM and illegal immigrant and amnesty supporters use these incidents to make their case for open borders.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby freedomforall » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:06 pm

lundbaek wrote:It is not uncommon for motor vehicle accidents here in Arizona to involve a vehicle carrying any number of illegal immigrants sneaking into the country. The MSM and illegal immigrant and amnesty supporters use these incidents to make their case for open borders.
Nothing like turning America into that which the illegals came from.
Garbage Everywhere.jpg
Garbage Everywhere.jpg (159.29 KiB) Viewed 589 times
GUESS WHO

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

To the very best of my recollection...I don't remember!

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ajax
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby ajax » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:28 am

Frederick Douglass on Immigration
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalr ... ation.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I submit that this question of Chinese immigration should be settled upon higher principles than those of a cold and selfish expediency.

There are such things in the world as human rights. They rest upon no conventional foundation, but are external, universal, and indestructible. Among these, is the right of locomotion; the right of migration; the right which belongs to no particular race, but belongs alike to all and to all alike. It is the right you assert by staying here, and your fathers asserted by coming here. It is this great right that I assert for the Chinese and Japanese, and for all other varieties of men equally with yourselves, now and forever. I know of no rights of race superior to the rights of humanity, and when there is a supposed conflict between human and national rights, it is safe to go to the side of humanity. I have great respect for the blue eyed and light haired races of America. They are a mighty people. In any struggle for the good things of this world they need have no fear. They have no need to doubt that they will get their full share.

But I reject the arrogant and scornful theory by which they would limit migratory rights, or any other essential human rights to themselves, and which would make them the owners of this great continent to the exclusion of all other races of men.
Are we Christians? We act like pagans . . . . - J Reuben Clark

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby ajax » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:37 am

California Committee Passes Bill to End Support for Most Federal Immigration Enforcement
http://www.targetliberty.com/2017/02/ca ... o-end.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
An important California Senate Committee passed a bill to withdraw state resources from the enforcement of most federal immigration laws. Passage into law will likely have the effect of further nullifying those federal acts in practice, reports The Tenth Amendment Center.

Introduced by Sen. President Kevin de Leon and four co-sponsors, Senate Bill 54 (SB54) was passed by a 5-2 vote yesterday in the Senate Public Safety Committee.

Known as the “California Values Act,” the bill would “prohibit state and local law enforcement agencies and school police and security departments from using resources to investigate, interrogate, detain, detect, or arrest persons for immigration enforcement purposes.”

While the bill would not allow state agencies to directly interfere with federal immigration enforcement, it would leave the enforcement of federal immigration law to the federal government in most situations.

So let me think for a minute how Trump will respond to this. Oh yeah, send more ICE and other federal agents into the state.
Are we Christians? We act like pagans . . . . - J Reuben Clark


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