Poll: illegal immigration

Discussion of principles relating to God's Law, Agency, Freedom, Liberty, the US constitution, and the Proper Role of Government.

Are you for...

Deportation
39
54%
Amnesty
6
8%
Something in between
27
38%
 
Total votes: 72

Seek the Truth
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Poll: illegal immigration

Postby Seek the Truth » Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:11 am

I'm just wanting a snapshot of people here, do you support amnesty, are you for deportation, or some middle ground.

I am for hardline deportation. Any amnesty will simply encourage more illegal immigrants ie the creation of a de facto open border and I can't see why the US is required of all the nations to have an open border.

The Senate Democrat bill is racist because it presumes deportation will begin again after the amnesty, and if deportation is racist today it will be racist the day after we grant amnesty.
The ancient prophets declared in the last days the God of Heaven should set up a kingdom which should never be destroyed, nor left to other people.

Joseph Smith HC, v6 pg 364-365

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby ajax » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:31 am

I am for the full dismantling of the welfare/warfare state, thus making immigration a non-issue.
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby Seek the Truth » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:46 am

I don't think that solution is on the table.
The ancient prophets declared in the last days the God of Heaven should set up a kingdom which should never be destroyed, nor left to other people.

Joseph Smith HC, v6 pg 364-365

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby ajax » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:54 am

"Striking at the root" solutions rarely are on the table. tsk tsk.

Your "solution" is nothing more than hacking at the brances and creating more evil by a ramped up police/surveillance state.
Last edited by ajax on Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby cayenne » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:46 am

is it not odd that the church says to gather to your own lands, and yet they seem to want amnesty for the illegals? All i know is God's house is one of order, and illegals should obey the laws of citizenship requirements for their country of choice. Since the church pushes gathering to your own country, what gives? could it be the 100,000 plus illegals in Utah that give cheap labor to some of Utah's richest corporations? If the church wants amnesty, what are they doing to help the 'mormon illegals become citizens?

They need to all be sent back, and do things correctly (in order)…if i were in their shoes i would not try to come into a country illegally and then try to get benefits from that countries working class paying taxes so i can get free stuff, etc…..

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby Hyrcanus » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:16 am

ajax wrote:I am for the full dismantling of the welfare/warfare state, thus making immigration a non-issue.

This times 1,000. The problem isn't all immigration, at least I don't believe it is. The problem is people that immigrate with the goal of taking from others without providing anything in return.
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby lundbaek » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:36 am

The statement "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discourages its members from entering any country without legal documentation, and from deliberately overstaying legal travel visas." should be adequate explanation of the Church's position on illegal immigration. ( http://newsroom.lds.org/article/immigra ... -statement )

I firmly believe that illegal immigration and amnesty has been and is still being fomented by latter-day gadiantons to make a shambles of this country by destroying its culture, siphoning off its wealth, and increasing the size of the socialist voting bloc by securing voting rights for immigrants of socialist persuasion.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby Seek the Truth » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:41 am

ajax wrote:"Striking at the root" solutions rarely are on the table. tsk tsk.

Your "solution" is nothing more than hacking at the brances and creating more evil by a ramped up police/surveillance state.

My solution was simply an exercise in brevity, conveying that illegals should go back under the law one way or the other.
The ancient prophets declared in the last days the God of Heaven should set up a kingdom which should never be destroyed, nor left to other people.

Joseph Smith HC, v6 pg 364-365

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby lundbaek » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:51 am

How do you reply to the cry that we need to be loving and chartable. My response is that I strongly disagree with those who believe that righteousness and charity include supporting initiatives, programs and legislation that force people to involuntarily contribute to the welfare of others. To contribute of one's own wealth to charity is righteous, but to use other people's wealth for charity is legalized plunder (a.k.a. theft).

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby GeeR » Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:53 pm

lundbaek wrote:How do you reply to the cry that we need to be loving and chartable.


I'd ask them what's charitable about illegals stealing identity and exploiting American citizens! Wouldn't you call that national suicide?

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby lundbaek » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:03 pm

Many members of the Church perceive most illegal immigrants as kind, humble, hardworking people who deserve a chance at a better life. And I cannot deny that. Also, many claim immigrants will have a better chance of learning about and accepting the gospel here than in other countries. Many clain those of us who oppose amnesty and further illegal immigration are racially bigoted. We all have different perspectives on this problem.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby freedomforall » Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:14 am

lundbaek wrote:Many members of the Church perceive most illegal immigrants as kind, humble, hardworking people who deserve a chance at a better life. And I cannot deny that. Also, many claim immigrants will have a better chance of learning about and accepting the gospel here than in other countries. Many clain those of us who oppose amnesty and further illegal immigration are racially bigoted. We all have different perspectives on this problem.

How many of these illegals are upstanding, honest and good people? How many are in street gangs? How many are in our jails? Does allowing amnesty allow more criminal activity?
How would any one of us be treated if we sneaked across the border into Mexico and later got caught.
Another issue I see is that by our country becoming socialistic, including amnesty, will eventually turn this country into the same state of evil and chaos the illegals are now running from. So what is gained? Has anyone looked at a genocide chart lately?

Here's one way illegal immigrants gets transported and sometimes caught.

GUESS WHO

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

To the very best of my recollection...I don't remember!

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby sevenator » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:33 am

Here's a winner for you:

3 year old killed by an illegal immigrant drunk driver. Right out there in Utah, no less.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=28496541&nid=148&title=3-year-old-killed-in-taylorsville-crash-identified&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-1

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby embryopocket » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:49 am

sevenator wrote:Here's a winner for you:

3 year old killed by an illegal immigrant drunk driver. Right out there in Utah, no less.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=28496541&nid=148&title=3-year-old-killed-in-taylorsville-crash-identified&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-1

Nowhere in the article does it say that the man was an illegal immigrant. Most latinos here are here legally, you can't just see someone with dark skin, a mustache and a Spanish name and call them illegal.
"If a man get a fulness of the priesthood of God, he has to get it in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it, and that was by keeping all the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord." - Joseph Smith

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby marc » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:10 am

A land stolen by foreigners who, by a so called Manifest Destiny, thought it right to butcher the indigenous peoples and exploit the natural resources, is ironically declared the land of the free and home of the brave, while pushing off the native men, women and children, whose right it is to possess the land.

"Send them back to where they came from," the masses ignorantly cry. "They have no legal right to be here!"

Their only reply as the natives stand their ground, "We never left!"

Something to think about.
"I advise all to go on to perfection, and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -- Joseph Smith, TPJS p.364

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby BrianM » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:19 am

ajax wrote:I am for the full dismantling of the welfare/warfare state, thus making immigration a non-issue.

yes, the poll needed an option like that.
All my opinions are tentative pending further data...

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby natasha » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:34 am

coachmarc wrote:A land stolen by foreigners who, by a so called Manifest Destiny, thought it right to butcher the indigenous peoples and exploit the natural resources, is ironically declared the land of the free and home of the brave, while pushing off the native men, women and children, whose right it is to possess the land.

"Send them back to where they came from," the masses ignorantly cry. "They have no legal right to be here!"

Their only reply as the natives stand their ground, "We never left!"

Something to think about.


Coachmarc....I understand your feelings. However, the B of M prophesies that this land of promise would be the home of many people who would establish a country that was condusive for the restoration of the gospel. In saying that...I understand your feelings and it doesn't make right the things that were done wrong. On the other hand, that too was prophesied to happen...and it is through the gentiles that the Lamanites would find the gospel again.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby RaVaN » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:35 am

coachmarc wrote:A land stolen by foreigners who, by a so called Manifest Destiny, thought it right to butcher the indigenous peoples and exploit the natural resources, is ironically declared the land of the free and home of the brave, while pushing off the native men, women and children, whose right it is to possess the land.

"Send them back to where they came from," the masses ignorantly cry. "They have no legal right to be here!"

Their only reply as the natives stand their ground, "We never left!"

Something to think about.


Whose right is it to possess the land? I have always found this to be a shallow argument. The majority of lands in the world are possessed by those who butchered their predecessors. The Canaanites could use this argument against Israel. At what point do a dispossessed people lose the right to their land? When they lose the power to retain it.

You end up with God being the only person who gives the "right" to possess a land and the power to retain it.

Using that argument today is even more shallow due to the fact that there are many "native" Americans today. How many are blood relatives to both groups at the same time that are US Citizens? How many of these "natives" have never had ancestors who fought and bled on both sides for the piece of land? Never left? Most never were here!

Anyhow, I get the underlying sentiment, but it's pretty much false emotional blackmail with no meaning other than being racist. Most Americans can claim the majority of the world by that argument. The same is true for many other peoples of the world. I know with my roots I can claim everything except maybe(and I stress MAYBE) parts of Asia. My forebears were killing each other continually over the "right" to possess a land.

God gives the right and no one else.
I am only one,
But I am one.
I cannot do everything,
But I can do something.
What I can do I ought to do;
And what I ought to do
By the grace of God I will do.
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby marc » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:41 am

IMO, at no point do dispossessed people lose their right to their land as only God gives that right, which is my entire point.
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby RaVaN » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:54 am

coachmarc wrote:IMO, at no point do dispossessed people lose their right to their land as only God gives that right, which is my entire point.


Probably a better way of wording it in my opinion is, "The only truly dispossessed people are those God has dispossessed".

Regardless, agree with your statement, disagree with the parable used earlier.
I am only one,
But I am one.
I cannot do everything,
But I can do something.
What I can do I ought to do;
And what I ought to do
By the grace of God I will do.
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby marc » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:57 am

RaVaN wrote:
coachmarc wrote:IMO, at no point do dispossessed people lose their right to their land as only God gives that right, which is my entire point.


Probably a better way of wording it in my opinion is, "The only truly dispossessed people are those God has dispossessed".


Agreed

RaVaN wrote:Regardless, agree with your statement, disagree with the parable used earlier.


Wasn't a parable. It's historically accurate, but arguably too complex to fit neatly into my short narrative.
"I advise all to go on to perfection, and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -- Joseph Smith, TPJS p.364

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby abelchirino » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:03 am

I'm Hispanic but I'm also an American citizen from birth. Now I believe that laws should be obeyed and even though I'm Hispanic, I don't like the Immigration Bill which is being debated at the moment nor do I support it. As much as I love my people, I don't want an amnesty. Now as far as God is concerned, I do believe that the God wants us all to gather in our own lands. Or at least that He has assigned a gathering place for each nation and people.

But I hear much talk here about obeying the law. Now the supreme law of the land is the Constitution. But we don't abide by the Constitution anymore. We have ignored the Constitution for more than 100 years. For more than 100 years, laws have been passed that are completely contrary to the Constitution, in the language of the Founding Fathers. Welfare at any level, even to citizens, is unconstitutional and wrong. Subsidized student loans are unconstitutional. Pell grants are unconstitutional. Minimum wage laws is a clear example. Laws to supposedly protect the employee are unconstitutional as well. The mandating of certain employment benefits is unconstitutional. The income tax is unconstitutional. Now the reason why I mention the income tax is because there are laws, that encourage an employer to offer health insurance to an employee since it is tax exempt. All these laws are unconstitutional. Illegal immigration is not the problem. It is only a symptom. A symptom of the real problem.

The real problem is that for many years we have all, together, stopped abiding the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND. If we did, then immigration would not be a problem. There wouldn't be no such thing as illegals coming for "cheap labor". The term "cheap labor" exists only because we have, in an unconstitutional manner, made labor really expensive. Instead of fighting "cheap labor", fight "unconstitution labor". Everyone would have to compete at the same level. American citizens have all sold themselves as the people of Akish did. Now we're all suffering the consequences of it. Take all these bad laws down and you'll see that "illegal Immigration" will cease. It would not be a problem.

Ask yourselves why it wasn't the problem more than 100 years ago. Ask yourselves why immigration, more than 100 years ago, always helped the country.

I heard this once and I thought it was really true: when the European settlers came they felt that it was their right to take the land because they felt God had given it to them. And indeed, the Book of Mormon says God did. The people that had been living here before the European settlers came felt that it was their right to keep the land. And indeed, the Book of Mormon says God had given it to them too. Both were angry at each other though. And when you think about it, the land did not belong to either of them. Who does this land belong to? Why does it belong to us? It doesn't, it belongs to God! It's His! He made it! When God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He made them (and at the same time each and everyone of us too) stewards of His land. To cultivate it, to take of it, to provide for ourselves and have joy therein. That is it! We're all just stewards only! Nothing more! Now I'm a strong believer of National sovereignty and of the Constitution, I don't want there to be a North American Union. But think about the Book of Mormon, at their more righteous moments, the nephites and the lamanites had free commerce with each other and people could go from one land to the other freely. They had borders still, but they understood true freedom. They may not have had a Constitution, but they did have the same principles.

The problem is not illegal immigration. The solution is neither amnesty nor deportation. The solution is to abide by the Constitution, in the language of the Founding Fathers. The solution is to obey the commandments of God to not add or take away from it. Once we're doing that, there will be no such thing as illegal immigration nor illegals coming for "cheap labor".

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby uglypitbull » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:06 am

ajax wrote:I am for the full dismantling of the welfare/warfare state, thus making immigration a non-issue.


THIS!!!!!! :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby abelchirino » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:27 am

In fact, I will go as far as to say that during this unconstitutional system of ours, we need "cheap labor". It would completely devastate our economy if we deport or grant amnesty. Here's why.

Let's say that you round up all illegals and you kick them out. This will cause one of at least two outcomes or more.

1st outcome

Those "cheap labor" jobs are offered to American Citizens. Right off the bat, these employers will have to account for more expenses (from all the unconstitutional benefits and protections that we American citizens enjoy) and will either have to close, raise costs or not hire that many people. This will not help unemployment and will definitely put heavier burdens on our wallets.

2nd outcome

These companies outsource. This will not help overcome unemployment.

Now lets say we grant amnesty.

Now these people working in "cheap labor" positions will now have to, by law, receive all the unconstitutional benefits and protections we American citizens enjoy and will ultimately make unemployment and prices skyrocket.

We have to understand how the economy functions. Neither deportation nor amnesty is the answer.

Lets not be hypocritical, get rid of all these unconstitutional laws, benefits and protections and it will end illegal immigration. There would be no such thing as illegal immigration nor "cheap labor".

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby sevenator » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:33 pm

Link to the story I provided was furnished by a man claiming to be the uncle of the 3 year-old in a post on another (non-religion based) forum that I frequent. I do not know if he is the mother or father's sibling.

From his post:

Our family needs prayers during this difficult time. His older brother was sitting right next to him during the accident and his last memory of his little brother will be of him dying at the scene. The driver was an uninsured illegal from mexico...The driver tried to walk away but was luckily detained by the good folks that stopped to help.


Exercise your own judgement, but you don't really think anyone in the media would report that the man was illegal, do you?

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby lundbaek » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:01 pm

Top Reasons Why S. 744 is a bad idea, from the office of Arizona Congressional Representative Matt Salmon. I read this part of the bill on line and also at Congressman Salmon's office, and can verify all of this. Both Arizona Senators, John McCain and Jeff Flake supported this bill.

1. Does not require any additional border fencing or the completion of our current border fencing requirements. Only requires DHS to submit to Congress a strategy of recommendations for additional necessary fencing.

2. Does not end the abuse of prosecutorial discretion by DHS and the administration. It directs immigration agents to release illegal aliens deemed low priority.

3. Authorizes DHS to waive unlawful behavior when determining admissibility of undocumented immigrants, including: gang membership, three or more DUIs, domestic violence, child abuse, crimes of moral turpitude, drug law violations, passport trafficking, providing fraudulent immigration services, prostitution, visa violations, and all other violations not specifically listed in the bill.

4. Allows DHS to grant legal status in 6 months, prior to any measures to secure the border.

5. Voids state and local E-verify laws.

6. Prohibits immigration enforcement actions in 'sensitive areas' including: hospitals, schools, churches, and certain organizations.

7. Does not provide for punishment of undocumented immigrants who make false statements in a registered provisional immigrant application. Yet it creates criminal penalties and a fine up to $10,000 for federal official who discloses information found on an application.

8. Does not require the deportation of a single undocumented immigrant. DHS is not explicitly required to deport an immigrant whose RPI application is denied.

9. Allows Secretary of DHS to exercise discretion to waive a ground of inadmissibility or deportability if the Secretary deems it to be against the public interest or a hardship to the family of the deportable individual.

10. Allows undocumented immigrants to bring class action lawsuits against the government for denial of RPI status.

11. Requires DHS to waive the public charge law when determining which immigrants are eligible for legal status.

12. Excludes three-time DUI offenders from a path to citizenship, but two-time drunk drivers would be acceptable.

13. Requires that passport forgers would no longer be prosecuted for making a single fake travel document, with the bar being set at three.

14. Requires that document counterfeiters whose materials are used to obtain passports would only be jailed if they contributed to at least 10 phony passports.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby Joel » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:14 pm

ajax wrote:I am for the full dismantling of the welfare/warfare state, thus making immigration a non-issue.


I vote for this and Amnesty


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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby abelchirino » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:58 pm

The bill is a bad one and I agree. But Immigration is not the problem. Look up Milton Friedman, an Austrian economist. He has some good points about Immigration and what the real problem is. It is all part of the free market. An employer wants to pay the least as possible. The employee as well wants to be paid as much as he can. The provider wants to charge as much as he wants. The consumer wants to pay the least as possible. These are not evil desires. They are just part of our natural desire to obtain the best deal. It is the profit motif. Now, we have made it really expensive to hire. It was the fact that we allowed unconstitutional laws to be passed. All these benefits, protections and minimum wages are unconstitutional.

But funny enough though, even when the consumer and the employee support these measures, they don't want to pay more for services or products. We still want everything to be cheap. So, in order to make it cheap, these providers and employers have been forced to either break the law, by hiring illegals who are willing to work for less without any of these unconstitutional protections and benefits or to outsource just so that we Americans can have cheaper products and services. The government cannot provide the best of both worlds. Only the free market can. Our demand for cheaper products, higher wages, more government mandated benefits and protections has been answered by the supply of "cheap labor".

Then we have also allowed our government to offer welfare, handouts or provide safety nets so as to make it economically smarter to just come to the US. Many people argue that if we were to go back to an open border, the way the nation used to be, then all chaos would break loose from the uncontrollable influx of immigrants. But that is not the case. If we would abide by the Constitution and the Free-Market, you may see people coming to the US but nobody will come with a higher advantage than the ones that are already here. They will not come to steal jobs. They will not come for benefits or welfare. Some are not going to be willing to take the risk and will decide to stay where they are. Some will come and may not make it as they were expecting and may decide to go back. Some will come, labor, struggle and stick at it until they do make it and will end up being very beneficial to the overall economy. That is the American way.

That is why I believe that the free-market is a correct principle. It naturally solves so many questions and problems of society, just as the Gospel does. The Free-Market is not all that you need in order to have complete and perfect freedom but you will never have complete and perfect freedom without the Free-Market. Don't fight "cheap labor", fight "unconstitutional labor". Fight unconstitutional laws.

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby M249Gunner » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:28 pm

Deportation. I bet that drunk driving puke that just killed that little three year old boy in Tailorsville came here illegally. I'm sick of the double standard. Illegals get away with murder (at least figuratively), yet I am expected to obey the laws. We need control of who comes into our nation.
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Postby marc » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:31 pm

Beloved wrote:


I admit, I laughed. :))

I'll share another.

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