Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal theft"

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uglypitbull
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Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal theft"

Post by uglypitbull »

Really? Of all places....Utah??!! What do they need to do, vote on these bills to find out whats in them??!! X( X(

Utah Made It Easier For Cops To Seize Innocent People's Property. And Not A Single Lawmaker Voted Against It

http://www.forbes.com/sites/institutefo ... gainst-it/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the story of how a botched drug raid on a lonely veteran in January 2012 sparked a fascinating movement for police reform -- in Utah of all places.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/2 ... 1382806699" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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mes5464
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

Post by mes5464 »

This is just some of the evidence that law enforcement in the USA has become a criminal (secret combination) organization.
Some of the evidence of this is:

Civil Asset Forfeiture
Body Cavity Searches (in New Mexico)
No Knock Warrants
SWAT Teams
Armored Vehicles
Nation Wide Police Brutality
Forced Blood Draws

The list goes on.

(Thank you RaVan.)
Last edited by mes5464 on December 24th, 2013, 8:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

RaVaN
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

Post by RaVaN »

@mes5464

You forgot one thing that horrifies me the most...forcible blood draws. My God how can people conscious such a thing.

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mes5464
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

Post by mes5464 »

Wow! I finished reading the whole article and what it tells me is that at least in the three largest counties of Utah, there law enforcement is a proven criminal organization. Beware of Utah, the natural laws to life, liberty, and property have been repealed.

karend77
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

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Just another reason I want to leave this state. agh!

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mes5464
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

Post by mes5464 »

karend77 wrote:Just another reason I want to leave this state. agh!
The problem is there are few places to run to. And as Elder Holland said, we can no longer flee Babylon, we have to stand and fight.

karend77
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

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mes5464 wrote:
karend77 wrote:Just another reason I want to leave this state. agh!
The problem is there are few places to run to. And as Elder Holland said, we can no longer flee Babylon, we have to stand and fight.
Yea, you are probably right. But my hubby and I have been fighting the good fight being involved in local politics for 30 years. It is especially disheartening in a state of significant population of LDS that are so ignorant of the Constitution, their civil rights etc. They have the "all is well in Zion" attitude and we cant seem to shake it out of them that they need to be educated and vigilant :-s

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mes5464
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

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karend77 wrote:Yea, you are probably right. But my hubby and I have been fighting the good fight being involved in local politics for 30 years. It is especially disheartening in a state of significant population of LDS that are so ignorant of the Constitution, their civil rights etc. They have the "all is well in Zion" attitude and we cant seem to shake it out of them that they need to be educated and vigilant :-s

You are right. They are fulfilling prophecy and I don't really see that turning around.

When I say stand and fight, I mean on a personal level. It will probably get me killed one day, but I am willing to protect my children from body cavity searches and blood draws, even unto the shedding of blood.

Thomas
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

Post by Thomas »

We already pay our police forces to do a job. The initiative against police seizure of property was overwhelming supported by Utah voters, yet, law enforcement refuses to abide to the will of the people. Mark Shurtleft, former Utah Attorney General was stumping hard for Utahans to overturn this vote. He basically said Utahans were stupid and didn't understand that police forces needed this extra money.

The seizure mentality gives police an incentive to be treasure hunters instead of doing the job they are already paid to do. It also violates citizen property rights.

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uglypitbull
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

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Thomas wrote:We already pay our police forces to do a job. The initiative against police seizure of property was overwhelming supported by Utah voters, yet, law enforcement refuses to abide to the will of the people. Mark Shurtleft, former Utah Attorney General was stumping hard for Utahans to overturn this vote. He basically said Utahans were stupid and didn't understand that police forces needed this extra money.

The seizure mentality gives police an incentive to be treasure hunters instead of doing the job they are already paid to do. It also violates citizen property rights.
I can agree with Mr. Shurtleft when it comes to voting...especially the large font part. I think the same comment could apply to just about every state though. At least in my ward here, there are more people paying attention to what is going on. My old ward I was able to count on one finger how many families were awake.
karend77 wrote:Just another reason I want to leave this state. agh!
I agree with Mes....there is nowhere left to go. It truly is an awful situation.....stand and fight, awaken others, make comments that force people to think, be ready to answer questions, and above all.....stock up on patience. ;)

isaacs2066
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

Post by isaacs2066 »

mes5464 wrote:
karend77 wrote:Just another reason I want to leave this state. agh!
The problem is there are few places to run to. And as Elder Holland said, we can no longer flee Babylon, we have to stand and fight.


Well, we could always go and build Zion already.

That will be the only safe place when crap really starts hitting the fan.

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Melissa
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

Post by Melissa »

isaacs2066 wrote:
mes5464 wrote:
karend77 wrote:Just another reason I want to leave this state. agh!
The problem is there are few places to run to. And as Elder Holland said, we can no longer flee Babylon, we have to stand and fight.


Well, we could always go and build Zion already.

That will be the only safe place when crap really starts hitting the fan.
Are we supposed to wait for something before we attempt to build Zion? The church pretty much let's people decide most things, but what about Zion? I wonder what would happen if people just started to live a Zion community, the church couldn't really say not too because people have already said they would.

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friendsofthe
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal theft"

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Melissa wrote:
Are we supposed to wait for something before we attempt to build Zion? The church pretty much let's people decide most things, but what about Zion? I wonder what would happen if people just started to live a Zion community, the church couldn't really say not too because people have already said they would.
Ezra Taft Benson taught us that the BOM gives us the pattern for the Second Coming. The Nephites were able to establish a Zion society, however, they didn’t achieve it until after they went through a great wave of destruction, which let to Christ’s appearing to them and teaching them. It was only after Christ appeared to and ministered among them that they became a Zion society. So, there is your pattern folks!

Ezra Taft Benson also taught that Christ’s first appearance would be to the “the righteous Saints who have gathered to the New Jerusalem.” This of course will be after great distraction comes upon America. The BOM pattern you know!? It is than that we will begin to build a true Zion society, not until!

isaacs2066
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

Post by isaacs2066 »

Melissa wrote:
isaacs2066 wrote:
mes5464 wrote:
karend77 wrote:Just another reason I want to leave this state. agh!
The problem is there are few places to run to. And as Elder Holland said, we can no longer flee Babylon, we have to stand and fight.


Well, we could always go and build Zion already.

That will be the only safe place when crap really starts hitting the fan.
Are we supposed to wait for something before we attempt to build Zion? The church pretty much let's people decide most things, but what about Zion? I wonder what would happen if people just started to live a Zion community, the church couldn't really say not too because people have already said they would.


First, I just have to thank you for not flipping the crazy switch and calling me an apostate right off the bat.

I mean I see our current church leaders kind of how Isaiah saw his (dumb watch dogs unable to bark) but I have never in my life denied Jesus Christ or his gospel.

The above view point of mine is due to the double fulfillment that Christ says all of Isaiah's words have.

Now, to answer your question we do not have to wait for the church leaders to tell us to do it because the Lord himself told us to go back and redeem Zion in the D&C after we were expelled the first time.

This Is still a standing commandment that has never been revoked by the Lord.

The way we gather was however changed slightly because the Lord said to gather together as much as possible in one place instead of branching out, this was for protection.

Nauvoo itself was a staging area, the Lord told the people who had just been kicked out by state militia to go back and prepare to take Zion back by force if it came to it.

Actually the revelation mentions that we at the time needed for the armies of israel to be sanctified before we could take Zion back.

The armies of israel were literally militias set up and run by the church (one for each stake more or less) for defense.

Anyway, fast forward to now. We do not even have to force people off the land, the church has forty billion in assets that we could throw at the people of Independence and likely outright by the city itself.

We know that the only laws we have to keep to be Zion are the five we covenant to keep anyway in the temple, so it is not like we are not good enough to be Zion it is that most of us do not want to.

Which that attitude itself confounds me, if we lived the five celestial laws (which actually are a lot smaller in scope then people think) we would literally end up being the most righteous, the strongest, the wealthiest, and the happiest people on earth.

But hey, I am just an "apostate" crying in the wilderness...

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harakim
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal theft"

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Anyway, no one is saying you can't build a practice Zion. Practice makes perfect

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h_p
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Post by h_p »

isaacs2066 wrote:Well, we could always go and build Zion already.

That will be the only safe place when crap really starts hitting the fan.
This should be the mindset of every single LDS member. I'm doing everything I can to get myself and my extended family and friends preparing for this. It's truly our only hope now.

We haven't built Zion because there are still too many people who haven't woken up yet. Remember Monson's parable of the eggs and weeds.

isaacs2066
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal theft"

Post by isaacs2066 »

friendsofthe wrote:
Melissa wrote:
Are we supposed to wait for something before we attempt to build Zion? The church pretty much let's people decide most things, but what about Zion? I wonder what would happen if people just started to live a Zion community, the church couldn't really say not too because people have already said they would.
Ezra Taft Benson taught us that the BOM gives us the pattern for the Second Coming. The Nephites were able to establish a Zion society, however, they didn’t achieve it until after they went through a great wave of destruction, which let to Christ’s appearing to them and teaching them. It was only after Christ appeared to and ministered among them that they became a Zion society. So, there is your pattern folks!

Ezra Taft Benson also taught that Christ’s first appearance would be to the “the righteous Saints who have gathered to the New Jerusalem.” This of course will be after great distraction comes upon America. The BOM pattern you know!? It is than that we will begin to build a true Zion society, not until!


Isaiah seems to indicate that Zion will be established before the the whole destruction starts.

Also if it isn't then no one will have anywhere to flee to.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

Post by Rose Garden »

Melissa wrote:
isaacs2066 wrote:
mes5464 wrote:
karend77 wrote:Just another reason I want to leave this state. agh!
The problem is there are few places to run to. And as Elder Holland said, we can no longer flee Babylon, we have to stand and fight.


Well, we could always go and build Zion already.

That will be the only safe place when crap really starts hitting the fan.
Are we supposed to wait for something before we attempt to build Zion? The church pretty much let's people decide most things, but what about Zion? I wonder what would happen if people just started to live a Zion community, the church couldn't really say not too because people have already said they would.
You don't have to wait for something before attempting to build Zion, but you do need to recognize what Zion is before you will be successful about anything. Numerous people throughout history have tried to build utopia and failed because they tried to build it on telestial principles. Zion is first a condition of the heart and that condition is best developed within your family. If you haven't yet learned to serve cheerfully, turn the other cheek, persuade your children to do your will cheerfully and not out of fear, etc., in your own home, you aren't going to have any success building a larger Zion community. When you have Zion in your own home, you God will guide you himself to a Zion community.

isaacs2066
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

Post by isaacs2066 »

Jezebel wrote:
Melissa wrote:
isaacs2066 wrote:
mes5464 wrote:
The problem is there are few places to run to. And as Elder Holland said, we can no longer flee Babylon, we have to stand and fight.


Well, we could always go and build Zion already.

That will be the only safe place when crap really starts hitting the fan.
Are we supposed to wait for something before we attempt to build Zion? The church pretty much let's people decide most things, but what about Zion? I wonder what would happen if people just started to live a Zion community, the church couldn't really say not too because people have already said they would.
You don't have to wait for something before attempting to build Zion, but you do need to recognize what Zion is before you will be successful about anything. Numerous people throughout history have tried to build utopia and failed because they tried to build it on telestial principles. Zion is first a condition of the heart and that condition is best developed within your family. If you haven't yet learned to serve cheerfully, turn the other cheek, persuade your children to do your will cheerfully and not out of fear, etc., in your own home, you aren't going to have any success building a larger Zion community. When you have Zion in your own home, you God will guide you himself to a Zion community.


That is a good point, but Zion isn't going to be based so much on service to others (although that will be a big part) as economic assistance to others through consecration.

The key part is that we need to be able to not horde wealth like greedy bankers.

I mean all of our needs will be provided for and then we will give our excess at the end of the year to the storehouse.

Idk if I am just weird, or if maybe it has something to do with having the baptism of fire but I just don't need or really want a ton of fancy crap.

That would just mean more stuff to have to organize and clean lol.

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Chip
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

Post by Chip »

It is especially disheartening in a state of significant population of LDS that are so ignorant of the Constitution, their civil rights etc. They have the "all is well in Zion" attitude and we cant seem to shake it out of them that they need to be educated and vigilant :-s
Huh, I wonder where they get that from.

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Melissa
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

Post by Melissa »

isaacs2066 wrote:
Jezebel wrote:
Melissa wrote:
isaacs2066 wrote:


Well, we could always go and build Zion already.

That will be the only safe place when crap really starts hitting the fan.
Are we supposed to wait for something before we attempt to build Zion? The church pretty much let's people decide most things, but what about Zion? I wonder what would happen if people just started to live a Zion community, the church couldn't really say not too because people have already said they would.
You don't have to wait for something before attempting to build Zion, but you do need to recognize what Zion is before you will be successful about anything. Numerous people throughout history have tried to build utopia and failed because they tried to build it on telestial principles. Zion is first a condition of the heart and that condition is best developed within your family. If you haven't yet learned to serve cheerfully, turn the other cheek, persuade your children to do your will cheerfully and not out of fear, etc., in your own home, you aren't going to have any success building a larger Zion community. When you have Zion in your own home, you God will guide you himself to a Zion community.


That is a good point, but Zion isn't going to be based so much on service to others (although that will be a big part) as economic assistance to others through consecration.

The key part is that we need to be able to not horde wealth like greedy bankers.

I mean all of our needs will be provided for and then we will give our excess at the end of the year to the storehouse.

Idk if I am just weird, or if maybe it has something to do with having the baptism of fire but I just don't need or really want a ton of fancy crap.

That would just mean more stuff to have to organize and clean lol.
Don't think a baptism of fire is the reason necessarily. I think level headed people who have eyes for more than this world don't like a bunch of crap. Also, once you mature you don't care for so much either.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

Post by Rose Garden »

isaacs2066 wrote:
Jezebel wrote:
Melissa wrote:
isaacs2066 wrote:


Well, we could always go and build Zion already.

That will be the only safe place when crap really starts hitting the fan.
Are we supposed to wait for something before we attempt to build Zion? The church pretty much let's people decide most things, but what about Zion? I wonder what would happen if people just started to live a Zion community, the church couldn't really say not too because people have already said they would.
You don't have to wait for something before attempting to build Zion, but you do need to recognize what Zion is before you will be successful about anything. Numerous people throughout history have tried to build utopia and failed because they tried to build it on telestial principles. Zion is first a condition of the heart and that condition is best developed within your family. If you haven't yet learned to serve cheerfully, turn the other cheek, persuade your children to do your will cheerfully and not out of fear, etc., in your own home, you aren't going to have any success building a larger Zion community. When you have Zion in your own home, you God will guide you himself to a Zion community.


That is a good point, but Zion isn't going to be based so much on service to others (although that will be a big part) as economic assistance to others through consecration.

The key part is that we need to be able to not horde wealth like greedy bankers.

I mean all of our needs will be provided for and then we will give our excess at the end of the year to the storehouse.

Idk if I am just weird, or if maybe it has something to do with having the baptism of fire but I just don't need or really want a ton of fancy crap.

That would just mean more stuff to have to organize and clean lol.
Not quite sure if you understood the point of my post.

Who is going to provide for our needs?

isaacs2066
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Re: Utah & its horrible civil forfeiture law aka "legal thef

Post by isaacs2066 »

Jezebel wrote:
isaacs2066 wrote:
Jezebel wrote:
Melissa wrote:
Are we supposed to wait for something before we attempt to build Zion? The church pretty much let's people decide most things, but what about Zion? I wonder what would happen if people just started to live a Zion community, the church couldn't really say not too because people have already said they would.
You don't have to wait for something before attempting to build Zion, but you do need to recognize what Zion is before you will be successful about anything. Numerous people throughout history have tried to build utopia and failed because they tried to build it on telestial principles. Zion is first a condition of the heart and that condition is best developed within your family. If you haven't yet learned to serve cheerfully, turn the other cheek, persuade your children to do your will cheerfully and not out of fear, etc., in your own home, you aren't going to have any success building a larger Zion community. When you have Zion in your own home, you God will guide you himself to a Zion community.


That is a good point, but Zion isn't going to be based so much on service to others (although that will be a big part) as economic assistance to others through consecration.

The key part is that we need to be able to not horde wealth like greedy bankers.

I mean all of our needs will be provided for and then we will give our excess at the end of the year to the storehouse.

Idk if I am just weird, or if maybe it has something to do with having the baptism of fire but I just don't need or really want a ton of fancy crap.

That would just mean more stuff to have to organize and clean lol.
Not quite sure if you understood the point of my post.

Who is going to provide for our needs?


We will provide for our needs just like we do now, the economy will be free market it is just that we will give what we do not use to the united order to be used by those who do need it.

preferably though the storehouse should be like a bank without any interest rates.

You take out what you need to improve your land or house or what have you and then make it up by giving all of your excess back.

Obviously the most basic use of the money in the storehouse would be to help people get to a place where not only can they provide for themselves but also have some excess to contribute.

After a length of time eventually if everything went semi smoothly then everyone in the united order would just be hyper wealthy.

That is how it would humble the rich and exalt the poor, because everyone would be wealthy.

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