Town hall & the 51% majority

[Moses]

Isnt it nice when we can disagree without being disagreeable:)

My only qualm with all this is that there is a perception that Moses is living somewhere where hes not free.
Im sitting here now idle (shame) because I am enthralled by this discussion,. Now is there someone at my door telling my I have had long enough on my PC get off and ge to work?

I have a business which give me two homes, two free standing homes in nice areas. an upmarket store in a good part of town. Two cars ( one for her and one for him) a 2 minute walk to the beach. ( maybe ten haha) I dont see anything that limits me at all, I am 100% autonomous. Not saying this to boast, just to illustrate that hey its okay my government wont be here in ten minutes checkiong up on me, Even my tax return is unaudited

My kids attend a free school which gives them a great education. no hidden socialist agendas.

My Prime minister came to our stake house and gave a talk on education her ministers often pop in and sit in our stake conference.Occasionaly giving talks.

Its all dogma, rethoric, and fear of the unfearful. I am okay we are okay we live a free life.

Just to say that Soviet russia and Red China are nothing to do with us......

NEW ZEALAND NATIONAL ANTHEM

God of nations! at Thy feet
In the bonds of love we meet,
Hear our voices, we entreat,
God defend our Free Land.
Guard Pacific's triple star,
From the shafts of strife and war,
Make her praises heard afar,
God defend New Zealand

Men of ev'ry creed and race
Gather here before Thy face,
Asking Thee to bless this place,
God defend our Free Land.
From dissension, envy, hate,
And corruption guard our State,
Make our country good and great,
God defend New Zealand.

Peace, not war, shall be our boast,
But, should foes assail our coast,
Make us then a mighty host,
God defend our Free Land.
Lord of battles in thy might,
Put our enemies to flight,
Let our cause be just and right,
God defend New Zealand.
Let our love for Thee increase,
May Thy blessings never cease,
Give us plenty, give us peace,
God defend our Free Land.
From dishonour and from shame
Guard our country's spotless name
Crown her with immortal fame,
God defend New Zealand.

May our mountains ever be
Freedom's ramparts on the sea,
Make us faithful unto Thee,
God defend our Free Land.
Guide her in the nations' van,
Preaching love and truth to man,
Working out Thy Glorious plan,
God defend New Zealand

[shadow]

Moses, I would imagine your country is probably more free than mine.

[Moses]

I feel that wherever we are we can feel free, or feel like we are oppressed. Its that which is inside us that is importabt , not that which is outslde.

Shadow , your cool.... thanks for those kind words. You know how to reach someone, dont you? Thank you. so much , you made me feel happy

[jbalm]

Simple. Taxation is not theft, and its on a general level all who earn, pay it.

Your home is quite a different matter. 10000 times more relevant to the question.

I dont object to a dollar of tax, but I object to you dipping your hand in my wallet.

Ones personal and the other is not.

I think the fact that in your view , anything goes, when it comes to business really disqualifies your statements that Tax to give to the poor it theft.

I really fail to see how you don't see causing a subjective decrease in real estate value as "personal" and having your paycheck looted as "not." How is an income tax not having someone dip their hand in your wallet?

I also think that you try to bolster your argument by trying to paint anti-tax people as anti-poor.

Do you consider it wrong for a government to tax citizens to engage in immoral wars? What about using tax revenue to help JP Morgan take over Bear Stearns? What about using tax revenues to prop up foreign dictators because some domestic businesses may benefit?

There are lots of reasons to feel violated by taxation.

In my land(S) we do have resource consent actsThat places the environment above developers interests. That is the land was here before any of us. and is not ours, we are stewards of the land for the next generations.

I grew up in a heavlily industrial part of Northern England , our legacy from the greedy Mine owners was filthy slag heaps of coal waste all around and a smokey polluted air.

The so called Socialists of the post 50s have transformed the area into a green belt with clean air for all to enjoy. Life expectancy in our area has increased we get tourists , who bring their money and spend it in the town, where previously they would drive miles out of their way to avoid it. Industry has been made accountable for their waste and environmental activities.

At least we can agree on something. Sort of.

Callously destroying the environment for gain is evil, whether done by an evil private citizen or a magnanimous, all-loving government entity.

But actually attributing environmental cleanup to socialism is, in my opinion, a bit displaced. History provides plenty of examples to illustrate that socialism and environmentalism are not synonyms.

Read some of Brigham Young's teachings. He was an environmentalist, but certainly not a socialist.

[ChelC]

New Zealand does have a cool national anthem.

I don't believe that you can be free anywhere, it isn't a frame of mind. No way. I do believe that the Lord can bless you with peace and happiness in any situation, but a Jew in Nazi Germany wasn't free, no matter how much they told themselves so.

I live in America, I enjoy many freedoms. I cannot compare my existence to anything resembling nazi germany. I fear for the future though, because I know where this road goes. Thank Heavens I know where the road ends! I am not as free as I should be, even here. Have you never looked at a bird with envy? I have! I was in the city yesterday taking the kids to a children's museum. It was fun, but my spirit was aching for wide spaces by the time we were done. The human soul yearns to be free and peaceful, that means different things to different people. Some birds are loners and they soar in wide spaces, some fly in tight knit flocks. People are much the same. Why then can we not allow each other the freedom to find our own way? It isn't one size fits all. We're supposed to drop to our knees with Thanksgiving to almighty government for allowing us the privilege of having an equal slice of the pie. Anyone who has kids knows it can never be equal. I don't want the fancy clothes or the fancy cars. Give me land and some independence and I'll find my way. I'll pay my share of what I use. I'll be a neighbor. I'll help my community. Let me figure out how when and how much. Leave me alone. Let me teach my children without arrogantly assuming I'm not educated enough to do it. Let me keep the animals I believe will comfortably fit in my parcel of land. Let me drive my truck with the crack in the windshield. If I think it's blocking my vision, I'll replace it. I value my life more than you. Stop micromanaging me! Mind your own business! Stop reading tabloids! Worry about yourself! If I need help I'll ask my family, friends and neighbors for it.

I don't think I'm alone in my yearning to get the heck out of dodge and just live.

[Moses]

Hi ChelC

I agree, it would be impossible to be exactly equal. For a start, who wants to be exactly the same as his neighbour?

Talking about cracked windscreens. I had one and my car failed its annual inspection because of it, I had to change it. I felt that it was a bit picky. But when I took it to be changed, I complained to the windshield guy about it and he showed me a photo of an accident where 4 people died including 3 pre schoolers. It was caused by a defective windshield that shattered going over a bump.

Sometimes we don’t know what’s best.

I’m not completely in opposition to your views I don’t like being told everything I can and cannot do. But I am able to decide the issues that are of importance and those that are not. I don’t think there are many issues that bother me too much. One of course I don’t like and its paying a tax on a tax. That happened here we pay vehicle registration fee to the government, which I don’t object to as it pays to maintain the roads, but they then add GST at 12.5% on to of that. (That’s like your sales tax) I object to that.

Getting back to the question of taxation for illegal wars and other things. I don’t object to paying tax for defence. But I do see your point on that one. And I do object to my tax dollar $10 million going on the Americas Cup regatta for team New Zealand that does grate those teeth I assure you.

But for health Education etc I am 100% committed to it.

I really fail to see how you don't see causing a subjective decrease in real estate value as "personal" and having your paycheck looted as "not." How is an income tax not having someone dip their hand in your wallet?

Taxation or a part of it goes to the betterment of the people, or the ones who need the help , could be me, could be you. so its not taking without intention of giving it or some of it back. If you dip your hand in my wallet, then you are stealing from me with intention of permanently depriving me of what is mine.

Tax is contributing to the national housekeeping. just like I give my wife my paypacket she then spends it on food and clothing and saves some.I dont accuse her of theft if she buys a hot chocolate in the Mall.

[ChelC]

Oh my gosh! Come over here, I'll empty your wallet. I could probably give you a little back to keep you happy. Sound good?

[Moses]

Oh my gosh! Come over here, I'll empty your wallet. I could probably give you a little back to keep you happy. Sound good?

My wife will probably taken it . I have 2 taxmen , one NZ iRD and 2 my lovely wife. I have pocket money with my three boys haha.

My Late uncle was a great man he was socialist from top to toe. but he was oh so successful in business. He proved you can do both. I think his was a higher law, he gave freely to the tax man, and he gave generously as you are suggesting. Its not a matter of either or.He gave jobs to people who werent qualified and carried them on the payroll in the belief they would amount to something in the end. He would never fire them. I suppose he built them into his budget.

I dare say there are conservatives who would do the same, so Im not suggesting Socialists have a monoloply on kindness , no sir. But I am saying that its wrong to lump an ism together and pronounce them evil. Ive met great people from both sides of the divide.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

I hope my husband never sees me as a tax man....

That made me feel queasy...

[Moses]

hope my husband never sees me as a tax man....

That made me feel queasy...

A little humour

[tribrac]

Hey

I read this thread and just had to weigh in. I work for a city in a planning department. (Please don't hurt my family or tell my bishop)

First let me say I don't think Moses is a bad man, neither are all of the concepts of socialism. Unfortunately, people in the USA are only exposed to the liberal left idea of socialism which teaches people to give up religion, hate themselves for having children or for existing on mother earth. When people talk to Moses they are speaking and hearing out of totally different experiences.

NZ and Usa also do planning differently. In the USA the City makes their future plans available to the public--then if you buy a house next to an empty field that is planned for condos it is expected that a reasonalble person would have checked the public record to see what might happen next door and you cannot claim damages. This system works great for people moving into a community, but has some problems for people who are there when the plans change (and plans always change).

Next, I can say that I cannot recall a single Christian at a public hearing. The people who come to city hall lie, swear, threaten, try to take advatange of their neighbor, seek only their own good and use every device and artifice to get their way. Therefore I am sure that not a single christian has come here.

Finally Joesph Smith planned city layouts and included restrictions on uses, but I don't know how he felt about polka-dots.

[shadow]

The city can't plan for all open fields unless the city owns them and has the rights to them.

Heres a comical (I think) story. About 10 years ago a new subdivision came in. Behind that was an open field. Some people who backed that field built their houses towards the back of their lot. That way they have the "appearance" of having a large lot by having a deep front yard. Well, of course the owner of that field sold it to a developer recently. The developer tried to get the land rezoned for a subdivision. The people who backed that field put up a big stink and caused the developer to hire an attorney and delay the work by over a year. The developer rightfully won his case and is now putting in the roads. The one side of the road that parallels the back of these homes has it's own set of CC&R's. Any guesses on the requirements of those homes on that one side of the street?? 2 story! Plus the land has a grade to it so those houses will look huge from the back. They'll all have walkout basements. Gotta love spite. I think it's silly that once someone builds a house they say "I'm here! lets shut the door on all future development." They should have pooled their money and bought the land when it was for sale. Then they would have the rights to it.