Government and the war in Heaven.

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
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ChelC
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by ChelC »

Buffalo girl, I think I'm missing something. What makes you think I don't want to help?

Moses, I agree. Until hearts change it's use is weakened. Eventually if our course does not change, it will be utterly useless. I think it's worth fighting for keeping it and changing those hearts, rather than calling uncle and accepting a forceful system.

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shadow
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by shadow »

buffalo_girl wrote:
All this talk of establishing a Zion society is so out of place it is ridiculous.
Don't worry, I won't ask you for help.
(I'll try posting my comment once again. It seems to have been lost.)

I do understand that AGENCY is Eternal Law:
Doctrine & Covenants 93:30-31

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
What I am not understanding is: HOW those folks still sitting on the roofs of their homes - whilst swirling storm waters rife with alligators making self-determined escape impossible - will be brought to safety without outside assistance.

I know the government does not want to do it. It looks like no one here wants to do it.

The choices then must be - Which way do I choose to die? How soon will I choose to die? Who goes first? What will be my attitude when I die?

I don't quite follow your post.

Is it the governments role to get people off roofs? The National Guard should have been there from the start -My opinion. FEMA shouldn't exist, neither should the Homeland Security.
What comments have been made that would give you the idea that no one here would help? Certainly there was a need for help in New Orleans. Was the need met? I don't think so. A failed government failed. Some people failed, but don't discount the many people that did help.

buffalo_girl
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by buffalo_girl »

I was quoting jbalm above. I find it rather odd that mention of a ZION People on this thread is inappropriate when "government", "agency" and "the War in Heaven" are the subject of the discussion.

Ultimately the ONLY choice we have is to FOLLOW CHRIST, or NOT.

If we FOLLOW CHRIST we will DO that which we have seen Him DO.


I believe that when we are able to live God's Law as exemplified by His Son's mortal ministry we will be living, "Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.". That will be the Government.

You made the point about a moral people and the Constitution for the United States. The Declaration of Independence declares that "We...are endowed by [the] Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

Without a responsible, educated, and moral people - a people who acknowledge the Creator - we don't have a prayer of maintaining our "rights" or knowing what powers we should consent to.

The Constitution for the United States simply defines the checks and balances between the several branches of a Federal Constitutional Republic designed to HOLD together the various autonomous "States".

The Bill of Rights (Original 10 Amendments to the Constitution) defines our rights as individual "People" and as individual autonomous "States". ALL TEN of them have pretty much been thrown into the waste compactor in the past 100 years or so and more thoroughly shredded in the past eight. Most people haven't noticed.

My point is that while we argue whether or not the United States is the ONLY true country because of OUR Nation's Constitution (Yes, it was inspired by God and does stand for ALL Nations and People.) - we are failing to live God's Law as exemplified by His Son.

For many years I have observed 'good' LDS people excuse themselves from assisting others by citing the statement from our General Authorities that a member must do all in his power to see to his own needs. When he cannot, then his immediate family must see to his needs. After the extended family's resources have been exhausted by assistance to the 'needy' member - then, and only then - does the Church lend assistance.

With but little imagination one can envision countless circumstances in which that formula will not DO what is needed for an individual in peril. And yet, we say, "Well, if they had been prepared they wouldn't be in that situation."

I am not looking to the US Federal Bureaucracy, Communist China, Hugo Chavez, the KGB, the EU, or my closest neighbor across the creek to take care of my needs.

Although...it would be a pleasant surprise to think that someone might follow Christ's example and be inspired to lend a hand in the event I found myself in immediate peril.

I fear that our self assurance in regard to our own preparations may be sorely tested. I sincerely hope not.

The rancor with which some participating in this discussion express themselves is a sad commentary in and of itself.

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Moses
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by Moses »

I feel the people in the day of our Lord, would have been at pains to distance themselves from the Lords parable of the good Samaritan, they would have been as opposed to the help for this unfortunate man from a Samaritan, just as strongly as some are saying that we cant have help form taxation of the 'Government'.

If people are helped then thats what Jesus would want. he would say the letter killeth, he would say ye strain a gnat and swallow a camel.

Its not about the constitution its about brotherly kindness. and its about stopping the apathy towards the poor, or driving the other way so we dont see the homeless our way home from work. I dont know if a child who has some relief from a pain or a meal on her table really cares where it came from. Good does not only come from LDS welfare it comes from so many many other sources. I hope with my heart that the voluntary agencies make enough progress that we dont need any state welfare. When that day comes , please let me know. :D

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jbalm
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by jbalm »

I was quoting jbalm above. I find it rather odd that mention of a ZION People on this thread is inappropriate when "government", "agency" and "the War in Heaven" are the subject of the discussion.
I never said it was inappropriate, I was simply pointing out that any step toward socialism is a step further away from Zion.

No need to get cantankerous.

I interpreted your prior posts as wondering how you can be assured that someone will provide for your temporal needs if you cannot. Quite frankly, that is unusual on this forum. Most people wonder how they can help others, if they mention it at all. If I'm wrong, so be it.

Face it--we're all going to die sometime. Some will experience a more pleasant death than others. Ultimately, the only thing we can guarantee is the condition of our own souls when the inevitable occurs. Worrying whether or not someone else will guarantee temporal aid in the mean time is a waste of effort.

Scolding certainly won't help.

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ChelC
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by ChelC »

That's strange. I could have sworn that was my quote. I went back to find it and it was Jbalm's quote. Leave me alone, I have fried mommy brains...

:lol: When I thought I said it I meant that we were arguing circles, and discussing Zion was ridiculous until we could nail down the fact that Zionism isn't applicable to a wicked people. No form of government can compensate for people who are not loving. I definitely don't think of Russia or Germany as warm and cozy love your neighbor kind of places.

I got the same impression as Jbalm, that you were suggesting that without socialism no one would care for the needy. I reject that. I don't know those people who walk past the man in the street. When I stop on the side of the road to read or write something down, I duck my head because I know someone will stop to see if I need help. My husband never drives past someone with a flat tire without offering help... unless it is absolutely obvious that they are handling it. If someone is fumbling for correct change in the store, more often than not I see people fill the need and pay the remainder for them. I stopped to give lunch to a homeless man once, and while I was handing it to him someone else gave money. I could give countless examples. My Father taught us this, and he's not some rare enigma. People help people. We don't need goverment as a barometer, we know what is expected, and if we don't do it we will face the damnation for it.

buffalo_girl
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by buffalo_girl »

I interpreted your prior posts as wondering how you can be assured that someone will provide for your temporal needs if you cannot. Quite frankly, that is unusual on this forum. Most people wonder how they can help others, if they mention it at all. If I'm wrong, so be it.
Perhaps our inability to carefully read one another's posts contributes to the chronic misinterpretation of one another's meaning. I did use 'first person singular' with the intent of 'personalizing' a situation in which any person might be suddenly found in dire peril. I'll change the pronoun:
What I am not understanding is: HOW those folks still sitting on the roofs of their homes - whilst swirling storm waters rife with alligators making self-determined escape impossible - will be brought to safety without outside assistance.

I know the government does not want to do it. It looks like no one here wants to do it.

The choices then must be - Which way does one choose to die? How soon does one choose to die? Who goes first? What will be one's attitude when he dies?
I am not looking to the US Federal Bureaucracy, Communist China, Hugo Chavez, the KGB, the EU, or my closest neighbor across the creek to take care of my needs.
As you see from a previous post, no one is this household is looking for or requesting a hand in a time of need. I might add, most especially from someone unwilling to imagine himself in a situation of helplessness and dire peril.

My hope & prayer for you is that you and your loved ones will never find yourselves in dire peril without assistance and that you will not need to remind yourself of the following:
Face it--we're all going to die sometime. Some will experience a more pleasant death than others. Ultimately, the only thing we can guarantee is the condition of our own souls when the inevitable occurs. Worrying whether or not someone else will guarantee temporal aid in the mean time is a waste of effort.
"Cantankerous"? No, ASTOUNDED!!! and quite as willing as you to express my opinion.

Now...What church is it you attend?

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jbalm
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by jbalm »

My hope & prayer for you is that you and your loved ones will never find yourselves in dire peril without assistance and that you will not need to remind yourself of the following:

Quote:
Face it--we're all going to die sometime. Some will experience a more pleasant death than others. Ultimately, the only thing we can guarantee is the condition of our own souls when the inevitable occurs. Worrying whether or not someone else will guarantee temporal aid in the mean time is a waste of effort.
Been there, thanks. I just don't fuss about it and complain that my home teachers weren't there to stop the bleeding. God helped me though it. It was really up to him.

In fact that incident is the largest single factor that shapes my outlook. Facing your own mortality makes you realize how fragile we are (even 6'4" 275 pounders). No matter how much friends and neighbors fawn over you (or don't), you are finite. Looking back, I'm actually grateful that it happened. I don't sweat the small stuff as much as those who haven't.
Now...What church is it you attend?
Overlooking your ridiculously myopic insinuation, I attend the LDS church, Howell (MI) ward, Ann Arbor Stake. How about you?

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Moses
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by Moses »

I wonder what conditions prevailed in the city of Enoch, prior to being taken up to heaven.

I would imagine they wouldnt have needed Government welfare. There were no poor among them, so I suspect they didnt have an every man for himself attitude and turn a blind eye to those in need. I also believe they would not have coveted their own property.

Now we aren't in that City . We have a wide spectrum of opinions and utterances about how, or indeed if the poor should get any help. If anything would cause me to doubt the Church and currently I dont doubt it. but it would be the hard line dogma against anything that resembles socialism. I dont hear it from the pulpit these days, but I do hear it in forums and talks have been given concerning it.

Its almost a hate thing. if its government organised it must therefore be evil. Not taking into account that Goverments are made up of people. And good people can be in government. Good people that are charitable in their own life, can when in a position of influence, decide to help more people by using their influence to help many. This is quite different to using their influence for selfish or personal gain.

I reject totally that Government has no place in welfare.I also say the welfare systems are the reason why less people are on the bread line, less people are in poverty.lLess people are homeless ( not voluntary homelessness)

If state welfare is wrong, then shame on the religious concience for letting what they see as Satan, doing their work for them.

Poverty and sickness, what are they like ? when you walk around or crawl with hunger pains, with no relief. worry about where your next meal is coming from. Having a sickness that lingers for years and you have no releif from it. Being blind because of Catharacts that can be fixed in minutes but cant be done because of lack of funds. There are many degrees and many different sufferings. I find it imposible to understand a thinking that would even suggest that taking tax for the relief of these ailments, and conditions is somehow wrong or theft. I would guess than some of these needy would be releived by charities on a very one off basis. But the real problem is not going to be helped by charity.

Here is the crunch line. Many of the people that welfare helps ( not all) go on to get meaningful gainful employment and achieve a lot with their lives, and enjoy lives and have the chance to themselves pay taxes. Get releif from their illnesses that prevented them from working and go on to have productive lives. They go on to provide better for their kids and their kids get better education, and compete with the kids of "non welfare families"

I have a couple of friends who were languishing in England years ago,because of their parents poverty had no shoes to wear, had runny noses and sicknesses. their parents who were proud and resisted eventually went on to state welfare , they started to improve their lives little by litte, and these boys are now 1/Computer anaylist earning $300 PER HOUR, and 2/ Medical specialist in a hospital in England.

Both of these boys put a lot more back into the system than they ever took out. I dont believe anyone with a heart would begrudge them their success.which by virtue of state education, state help with their housing when they were kids, and state funded medical care.

its all good.

I know there are those that are content to remain as kept individuals, but we must not tar everyone with the same brush.

The leader of the opposition in New Zealand who many beleive will be our next prime minister, ( Conservative) Grew up in a family on state welfare in a state home. He is now a multi milionaire and though being a conservative he is not really pro welfare, he does not shy away from his roots and he is not ashamed. Nor will he scrap welfare when he comes into power, he may moderate welfare and make it more difficult to abuse it ( I agree with this) But welfare is not the evil that many stateside say it is.

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jbalm
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by jbalm »

I won't get into too deeply Moses, because its been rehashed over and over again.

Charity is good. Nobody argues about that.

If you think charity = socialism, so be it. But you'd have to redefine the words to suit your purposes.

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ChelC
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by ChelC »

How do you make the jump from rejecting socialism to rejecting the poor? You're presenting it like it's a given. It's not.

Shame on whoever let your friends go without shoes, but an illustration of someone getting help from a socialistic system doesn't mean it's the correct or only way to get that help. I don't know statistics, but I've always heard the US is the most generous nation as far as private charitable donations, but somehow when we promote freedom it is always assumed that we do so for selfish reasons. I've tried to illustrate some of the flaws, but I'm apparently not making my point well.

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shadow
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by shadow »

I imagine the citizens of the city of Enoch were not forced in anything. There were no poor because all willfully took care of each other. I imagine the government was nothing more than eternal truths. Force would not have been a part of it (it's opposite eternal truth). A neighbor without wouldn't have a desire to gather a majority together, plead a case, then have the majority take from another to satisfy a need or want. I imagine when someone saw a need, they freely offered what they had.

Socialism is not charity. To have charity one must choose and that requires agency. I don't believe I can be forced to have charity. It seems contrary to me. It seems contrary to me to see a need, force another to fill it and still count it as good. It's all quite foreign in my mind.

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shadow
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by shadow »

I'm not so sure all this talk really matters now. Our governments will fail. The "systems" will fail. The next step will hopefully be the law of consecration.

buffalo_girl
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by buffalo_girl »

Now...What church is it you attend?
I apologize, jbalm. That was a cheap shot pure and simple.
I just don't fuss about it and complain that my home teachers weren't there to stop the bleeding. God helped me though it. It was really up to him.
Yes, I've been in that situation as a single mother with two sons. God helped me through it as well. I didn't fuss and complain, either.

I was able to keep my weight very low eating only once a day and feeding the kids on a $55 food budget for an entire month. I had good food storage & food wasn't nearly as expensive then, so we made out pretty well while I worked part-time - sometimes full-time - and went to school full-time. I sure didn't need to worry about 'home teachers'. I never met them.

The Lord saw us through it.

I do sometimes wonder though if my older sons, Ephraim & Samuel, might be active members of the Church now if the Scout Master in our Provo Ward hadn't thought it was ok for the other LDS boys to make fun of them during scouting activities because their mother was divorced. When I called to find out if he was aware of a problem that might need to be addressed, his response was, "Oh, yeah, we had another boy awhile back whose mother was divorced. The boys made fun of him, too. He finally stopped coming."

Well, by golly, so did my sons. They are highly successful carpenters and not one whit interested in being LDS. I'm not faulting anyone for that. I'm certain that their inactivity had nothing to do with their experiences as children. They have their agency.

If we are to be worthy of Christ then perhaps we need to follow His example of compassion and service.

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jbalm
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by jbalm »

I do sometimes wonder though if my older sons, Ephraim & Samuel, might be active members of the Church now if the Scout Master in our Provo Ward hadn't thought it was ok for the other LDS boys to make fun of them during scouting activities because their mother was divorced. When I called to find out if he was aware of a problem that might need to be addressed, his response was, "Oh, yeah, we had another boy awhile back whose mother was divorced. He finally stopped coming."
It is truly shameful when that is allowed to happen. Boys will be boys, but the leaders are there to foster a good environment. My calling has been with the young men for several years now. When any of the boys start picking on another, they get smacked down quickly.

As an aside, I left the church for 15 years because I took offense to actions of certain members. The circumstances surrounding my re-activation were quite unusual. Your sons may still return.

They must be good people after all--they're carpenters. (I was a carpenter for years until the incident to which I referred above forced me into a desk job. I really loved it.)

Proud 2b Peculiar
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

Matt 6
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

D&C 58
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.

D&C 123: 7
7 It is an imperative duty that we owe to God, to angels, with whom we shall be brought to stand, and also to ourselves, to our wives and children, who have been made to bow down with grief, sorrow, and care, under the most damning hand of murder, tyranny, and oppression, supported and urged on and upheld by the influence of that spirit which hath so strongly riveted the creeds of the fathers, who have inherited lies, upon the hearts of the children, and filled the world with confusion, and has been growing stronger and stronger, and is now the very mainspring of all corruption, and the whole dearth groans under the weight of its iniquity.


Ether 10: 5-6
5 And it came to pass that Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines, and did lay that upon men’s shoulders which was grievous to be borne; yea, he did tax them with heavy taxes; and with the taxes he did build many spacious buildings.

6 And he did erect him an exceedingly beautiful throne; and he did build many prisons, and whoso would not be subject unto taxes he did cast into prison; and whoso was not able to pay taxes he did cast into prison; and he did cause that they should labor continually for their support; and whoso refused to labor he did cause to be put to death.


Mosiah 11: 3, 6
3 And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed, a fifth part of their gold and of their silver, and a fifth part of their ziff, and of their copper, and of their brass and their iron; and a fifth part of their fatlings; and also a fifth part of all their grain.
• • •
6 Yea, and thus they were supported in their laziness, and in their idolatry, and in their whoredoms, by the taxes which king Noah had put upon his people; thus did the people labor exceedingly to support iniquity.



Mosiah 2: 14
14 And even I, myself, have labored with mine own hands that I might serve you, and that ye should not be laden with taxes, and that there should nothing come upon you which was grievous to be borne—and of all these things which I have spoken, ye yourselves are witnesses this day.


Ezek. 46: 18.
18 Moreover the prince shall not take of the people’s inheritance by oppression, to thrust them out of their possession; but he shall give his sons inheritance out of his own possession: that my people be not scattered every man from his possession.

Isaiah 10
1 Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed;

2 To turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they may rob the fatherless!

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Moses
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by Moses »

I will have to rest from this I feel. Your quotations about Communism are making me feel that you have an unbreakable cord between Welfare and Communism plainly they are not one and the same.
Im talking apples and you are talking oranges. with great respect that isnt going to make us understand each other.

I dont think anyone in my circle of influence is in any degree in support of force in any way.
If you believe I do, then thats for you to decide. But my concience is very clear on that matter.

Its not for Prophets to tell me how to believe politically, Even Jesus said "My Kingdom is not of this world" Render unto Ceaser the things that are Ceasers and unto God the things that are God's

Tony Blair or GW Bush arent saying to people , "look forget God I am the way." that would be a counterfeit religion. he isnt saying that, nor is anyone else that I follow and respect for that matter.

Fanatacism is rife everywhere , even in Churches. Before I explained to you that I dont support communism you were ignorant to my views, but once I explain I am against communism, I would think any reasnable person would get that mewssage, but you still keep quoting communism at me. I dont like that in the light of my continual explanations to the contrary.

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ChelC
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by ChelC »

Yep, we need definitions, to me socialism is the sissy primer to communism. How do you define socialism?

By the way Buffalo Girl, how old are your sons? Have they had children? It may come back to them. Our old bishop was telling us once that just before he was reactivated he had written a letter to church headquarters asking them to remove his name from church records, he never sent it - something happened. Amazing transformation that he went through not too many years ago and he's an impressive person with an awesome testimony.

My husband and I have already discussed certain punishments if we catch our boys making fun of others. I've seen it happen too often.

I'm sorry that happened with your boys, and sorry no one was there to relieve you during that experience.

buffalo_girl
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by buffalo_girl »

Thank you, jbalm & chelc for the expressions of concern for our sons.

They were both adopted by my second husband 27 years ago in Salt Lake City - a year after we were married. Although he has lived among Mormons for 34 years and been an unflinching support of our membership and my involvement in all sorts of callings, he only just joined the Church six months ago! Those two older sons (in their mid-30's now) have softened a great deal toward the Church since their dad's baptism. There was a time when the oldest, Ephraim (6'5") thin, solid with Viking fierceness would literally run visitors from the Church off his front porch. Samuel, no less intimidating (6'5") but huge had his own way of discouraging visitors from Church. I'm not sure if their current Wards have their records & I haven't felt it my place to contact Church headquarters for them.
Fanatacism is rife everywhere , even in Churches. Before I explained to you that I dont support communism you were ignorant to my views, but once I explain I am against communism, I would think any reasnable person would get that message, but you still keep quoting communism at me. I dont like that in the light of my continual explanations to the contrary.
Exactly! That's why I jumped in with my 'theoretical' situation. If we cannot commit to assisting those in need by our private, non-government efforts and organization, then who does? Of course, it should be the Savior's way. How many of us are committed to doing it the Savior's way?

It seems to me that in a truly 'free' society, the People determine how to regulate and apportion their resources into agreed upon organizations which serve the needs of the community. Those organizations are instituted, regulated, and monitored by the People. This is self-determination, the exercise of 'free agency' on a community scale. Call it what you will. It is an agreed upon Plan established by a Free People.

Tyranny is when the State determines what is best for the People. That is Lucifer's Plan. Tyranny is any Totalitarian State - I care not what label it wears.

Not to get everyone started again in this tedious, everyone yelling at the top of their voices, debate, but ah...where do city operated fire departments, schools, and libraries fit into our 'no government' at any cost ideas of freedom?

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shadow
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by shadow »

Yes Buffalo, and I'm just glad that our government is protecting us from bad food too. The USDA is a great asset to our country as it protects us from bad farmers. All farm animals should have an identification and be registered for our own good. :D We don't need mad cow disease running rampant in our food supply. :!:

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ChelC
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by ChelC »

The way I see this, we all agree that:
1. We should love our neighbors as ourselves.
2. We admit that many including ourselves fail at this responsibility.
3. We should give charity willingly.

Most agree that:
1. We should be free to act according to our will so long as it is in keeping with the laws of God and doesn't infringe on anothers rights.
2. Government (any organization of the people and delegation of certain responsibilities to that body) is necessary. (Maybe all believe this?)

We are split on:
1. When people shirk their responsibility to the poor it is a condemnation to be born, but doesn't legitimize the breaking of other laws of God.
vs. 2. When people shirk their responsibility to the poor it is the greater law to force them to provide.
- with various caveats and asides to both of those...

It is being falsely assumed that government is good or better at providing welfare than the people would be if faced with the need with more of their own money available to give to whichever charities they see fit. The organization of the church doesn't forcefully take fast offerings or tithing. Failure to pay either of these results in the witholding of various blessings, but not forceful punishments. This is because we fail in our responsibility, but have not openly offended the church and anothers rights, IMO.

With tithing, which funds things we partake of, if we do not pay we are still welcome to church but we lose the access to higher blessings and privileges. Maybe those who fail to pay taxes providing them with defense and the necessary things of government outlined in the Constitution should not be able to vote, hold office, or some similar kinds of punishments. With fast offering, we forfeit blessings when we do not pay, but our standing isn't questioned to my knowledge. In my socialist government if I don't pay taxes (which are the same as 40% tithing by church leaders pocketing the 30% for pet causes) I lose my home and go to jail. Something I see being comparable to tithing is registering a vehicle to use the roads (tax, not safety and emissions). Income tax is completely on a different wavelength. Social Security is to me like church leaders forcing me to get food storage, not guaranteeing I'd ever get it, and charging me for it against my will. The various welfare programs are the same as the church determining the fast offering you should pay, taking it forcefully with threat of retaliation, never guaranteeing your being provided by those services, having extreme overhead for providing services, doing a crap job, and excommunicating if you didn't pay.

Proud 2b Peculiar
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Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

When I was trying to wrap my mind around these principles I looked at the Church as the representation as the government of God on earth, perfect order, with checks and balances all the way. The ability to choose to obey or not to obey, to give or not to give. Blessings being predicated upon the principles and laws lived. If they did not live those principles, they still could exist and were not forced to do so.

When it came to the poor, all those who are compassionate give, and the church helps members and non members a like, and if a ward is poor, there are more channels to approach to assist, leading all the way up to the Lord himself if we cannot all help each other.

The other governments of the earth today, take the property and penalize the people if they do not give what they are required to give by compelling laws. They have created a belief system of entitlements, entitled to this entitled that that regardless if principles were lived.

If we know that this is the Church of the Living God, then we know what perfect government looks like. If we are in the last days, then we know what a wicked world looks like, and if we are in agreement on these two things, then it is easy to see that siding with the majority is a spiritually and even temporally fatal mistake.

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Moses
captain of 100
Posts: 316
Location: New Zealand

Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by Moses »

When it came to the poor, all those who are compassionate give, and the church helps members and non members a like, and if a ward is poor, there are more channels to approach to assist, leading all the way up to the Lord himself if we cannot all help each other
Did anyone bother to ask me if I liked the Church system of welfare? I think its very very good. I wish, that the whole globe had such a system. I also appreciate the Church has the capacity to help non members too.

When the day comes that the Church has the capacity to encompass everyone, Member and non member alike then it will be a happy day.

The Church obviously recognises the need for welfare. and we need to bear that in mind when we discuss welfare issues.

Because the Church currently cannot reach everyone , then there needs to be , even on a temporary basis, Other means to help people. Voluntary agencies are another good source of help.

The world has never had as many people all at one time in its history. and naturally the number of needy are also growing by the minute. And will continue to grow.

I do agree that we ought to try ourselves to sort out our problem, and if our family can't help us, then we need to go somewhere.
I somehow think that begging on the street is not really an option for most. and besides the people complain about that as well. Why should I have beggars in my path on my way to work every day. Complain to the authorities and have them removed.It has to be acknowleged that the problem of poverty and welfare is societies problem and society has to address it.

We are our brothers keeper whether we like it or not. we are all shepherds whether we like it or not, either we are good shepherds or bad shepherds. Unfortunately there are too many bad shepherds among us, and I guess to a degree we are all bad shepherds from time to time, some more than others. ( definitely me included). So the problem remains, there arent enough agencies and good shepherds to address the huge problems in society.

This is where state sponsored welfare has become an unavoidable reality. I wish we didnt need it. But until we as a society care enough, and until the people who are in need are confident enough to ask for help from those who may ridicule them then we are stuck with welfare.

I wonder where a person contract Multiple sclerosis or some other degenerative disease where they will require more and more care. Which welfare agency will take care of that person for the duration of their incapacity? Statre welfare does.

I have a friend who migrated to America, from England, and met a local man in Utah. all was well, until he contracted Multiple sclerosis. , the outcome was that they moved to England where he could receive proper care without having to declare bankrupcy. This is a story close to home and hit home to that American boy that sometimes Life isnt all black and white.

Like we all keep on agreeing, its all about love and all about the care of the needy. How we arrive at that can be as varied as the sands on the sea. Lets not label one evil because we dont understand it.

The pharasees were rigid and always quoted from what others had written and indeed they said . " Is it not written "? they were hamstrung about rules and regulations, we cant walk on the Sabbath more than so many steps, not pick corn on Sunday.

Rules are fine and Prophets utterances are fine, but the law is for the people and not the people for the law, we must be less rigid and feel with the spirit more. I feel very happy when suffering is releived. You may too, but for me I am not happy with selected people getting help. I am happy when I see the face that grimmacfes with pain slowly turn to a face with a relaxed smile that I enjoy. Lets help those in need. The church way if we can, but lets not discount that other less palatable ways have to be considered.

Remember "They who are not against us are with us"

In Love

Moses

And a happy Easter to you all

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ChelC
The Law
Posts: 5982
Location: Utah

Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by ChelC »

I agree with most of that, just not that I can roll over and accept my definition of socialism.

Are you ever going to tell me your definition? Pretty please.

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shadow
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: Government and the war in Heaven.

Post by shadow »

My mom used to always ask me "What would Jesus do?" I like to think I try to live that way everyday. "what would Jesus do?" The will of the Father. My spirit, backed by the scriptures and words of the prophets tell me that they would not support force. Satans plan wanted all to be saved. Not bad. He said he wanted it so much that he would force the issue. Force wasn't the way our Father intended. Agency was. Let them choose. Yes, many would be lost and not make it. But so be it. Agency, choice. I want to govern myself. What of me Moses? Are you willing to FORCE me to comply? Is that supporting force (for the good of all) or agency. With agency, I can still give of myself (and do a better job of it than any bureaucrat).

I went to the hospital the other night with a neighbor to offer blessings and assistance. He is a business owner as I am. He told me he wished payroll taxes weren't so high so he could hire more people. Do you see the problem there? It costs too much to hire people! He COULD take someone not employed and employ him but the government takes too much! Silly isn't it? In fact, he said he could probably sell his building, which he pays property taxes on, lay off his current employees and work out of his house and he'd probably take home more or work less so he'd have more time with his family. I can tell you that if government got their hands out of the pockets of it's citizens more people would have work.

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