Government and the war in Heaven.

[shadow]

How does the proper role of government relate to the war in Heaven? Some here argue that socialism is good and is actually Christlike. How? To me it makes no sense at all. Certainly one must define socialism first. So what is socialism? Is it forcing others to give to the greater good? But the socialist says "force" is a strong word. They want to redefine it with such soft phrases as "the people voted for it" and "it helps everyone". But is that the plan that was set up? Is that what I fought for in the war in heaven? To be forced to help the general welfare? To me helping is good, force is bad.

The Bible dictionary defines the war in heaven as such:

"This term arises out of Rev. 12:17 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involved such things as AGENCY, how to gain salvation, and who should be the redeemer. The war broke out because one-third of the spirit children refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the Fathers plan of redemption. It was evident THAT IF GIVEN AGENCY, SOME PERSONS WOULD FALL SHORT OF COMPLETE SALVATION; Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come AUTOMATICALLY to all who passed through mortality, WITHOUT REGARD TO INDIVIDUAL PREFERENCE, AGENCY, OR VOLUNTARY DEDICATION (sounds a lot like socialism). The spirits who rebelled and persisted were thrust out of Heaven and cast down to earth without mortal bodies, "and thus came the devil and his angels".

The warfare is CONTINUED in mortality in the conflict between right and wrong; BETWEEN THE GOSPEL AND FALSE PRINCIPLES, ETC. THE SAME CONTESTENTS AND THE SAME ISSUES ARE DOING BATTLE, AND THE SAME SALVATION IS AT STAKE."

So Lucifer and his 1/3 wanted everyone to be saved. No choice. Is that bad? I fear a few here believe it to be good. Lets not forget their fall. They wanted everyone to be saved without a choice. Or shall I say they wanted everyone to have health care, to have a full stomach, to live in a nice house, to be equals with everyone else. God's plan was that "some persons would fall short of complete salvation". Why would they? Because they CHOSE to, not that God didn't want them to.

Fortunately God sent a savior, and it isn't government. "The same issues are doing battle". Where lies your faith? Who's on the Lord's side, who?

[a-train]

We can see here that Satan's policy was a fear based preemption plan. His policy would not tolerate the notion that any soul would be lost. Indeed, it is a charitable desire to love those who would be lost, but it is even less charitable to remove their agency. What is seemingly misunderstood is that the loss of a soul comes by way of slavery. The lost soul is bound and lacks the liberty of salvation.

'Damned' is a great word. I cannot fail to see the word 'dam' in it. It is a strong containment. To be damned is to lose liberty. How then could we ever expect to grant liberty by taking it away?

Satan's desire remains to usurp the powers of freedom. How does he do it? Lies. Lies bring fear which brings hatred and bitterness. Through deception, man can be the slave of a lie, whether he is the teller or the hearer of it.

We need not fear the loss of souls. Nor need we fear man at all. Gun control is a fear based preemptive policy. Drug laws are fear based preemptive rules. Preemptive wars are the result of national fear. Men have ever risen in violence because of fear.

What did Paul say? 'For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.' (2 Tim. 1:7)

Today we have a government policy of great fear. When we are fearful of some nation, we go bombing it preemptively which starts conflicts. It was the fear of communism and the military effort to contain it that brought us into Vietnam and kept us there. It is ironic that after our departure, Communist Vietnam took out Pol-Pot and led the way for a constitutional monarchy in Cambodia. Vietnam then began privatization reforms in the 80's which have continued to this day.

What many do not seem to remember is that Germany's fixation on Poland and ultimate invasion was the Nazi fear of Communism and their efforts to contain it. The Nazi policy was one of fear and preemption.

Are we learning yet?

-a-train

[shadow]

Laws are eternal. Lucifer had a plan that would save all. But could it really work? No! It wouldn't have mattered if 100% chose to follow Lucifer. His plan was a failure from the get go. It was against the law. The law requires choice. Mistakes would be made with choice, thus a savior was provided and we had faith in him and the atonement.

Government is to protect my rights, my use of agency. It is not to "save" me. It is not to provide for me, not even when I'm down on my luck. Governments role is to make sure that I have full access to the fruits of my labor.

[Moses]

You have your heart in the right place.But I have to suggest that Governments role is also to protect its citizens. to provide a climate where business can flourish and people can have access to proper medical and educational facilities.

You talk about force and theft. how about those in positions of power, such as The medical profession the legal profession, and other professions who can do a service that in a matter of a week, could demand enough from a family to reqire them to mortage or even sell their home in order to pay for one weeks work or less. a home that took 25 years to pay for can be lost because of an operation. these professionals have huge huge homes, paid for by the hard earned money of the normal people on the street. You talk about force. these people have no where else to go for help. I am so so sorry but the anti welfare hobby horse,is very selective on punishing one group and ignoring many other wrongs. The scriptures including the BOM condemn these practices.

Social policies are not concerned with robbing you or me of our right to choose good or evil. They are concerned with protecting the public from those businesses who use legalised plunder, and given the man in the street a fair deal.


Maybe its not perfect, but it is sure as anything , as perfect as the alternatives currently available.

[jbalm]

You talk about force and theft. how about those in positions of power, such as The medical profession the legal profession, and other professions who can do a service that in a matter of a week, could demand enough from a family to reqire them to mortage or even sell their home in order to pay for one weeks work or less. a home that took 25 years to pay for can be lost because of an operation. these professionals have huge huge homes, paid for by the hard earned money of the normal people on the street. You talk about force. these people have no where else to go for help. I am so so sorry but the anti welfare hobby horse,is very selective on punishing one group and ignoring many other wrongs. The scriptures including the BOM condemn these practices.

Ever heard of insurance?

With very few exceptions, anything the government can do, free people can do better.

[a-train]

Imagine for a moment if 100% of Americans had ZERO health insurance, not a cent in coverage. And, imagine there was no government assistance in the matter. What would happen? Healthcare prices would drop to their lowest sustainable level. There would not be such a huge paycheck in store for the medical doctor. Many people would forego medical services and pharmecuticals altogther. 20 visit pre-natal plans would be cut to 3. Overnight stays for observation would be at home. Drug prices would go way down as demand fell.

An ambulance ride would not cost 800 times more than a cab ride. A bed in a hospital would not cost 20 times more than a bed in a nicer hotel. Perhaps smart hospitals would outsource their cafeteria to a local business who could provide the food and service at a fraction of the cost. Administrative fees would drop. Medical services in general would become less expensive. Establishments and professionals offering medical services would focus on service in order to entice business.

Perhaps healthcare would really CARE.

I would love it if the government did a single payer skateboard program and my business and profits would skyrocket by government mandate. I'm starting a new universal skateboard lobby. We are going to solve the global environmental issue by providing energy renewable, emissions free, transportation for everyone. We will issue skateboards to the poor who can't afford them. The 6% of Americans who control half of U.S. wealth will pay only about 6% of the bill and the rest of America will pay the remaining 94%. In fact, all Americans making over $100,000 a year will only pay what we charge someone with a $100,000 annual income. But, the kids flipping burgers part time for $6.25 an hour to save up for college will pay the full percentage on their wages.

The skateboard prices I charge would skyrocket! Once in a while, fears of wheel shortages could be put on television to keep people hoping the government will do more to support my industry. Soon, I'll be one of those millionaires who contribute only a small token to the pot while riding in a car rather than on a skateboard. And when someone catches on that the whole thing is just a scam, I'll just say: 'You are so inhumane! You would deny a person's right to a skateboard?!?!? How could you!!??'

-a-train

[Mark]

Ever heard of insurance?

With very few exceptions, anything the government can do, free people can do better.

Amen and hallelujia brother! If governments would just do what is right in the eyes of God then people would have plenty of funds available to purchase insurance and give charitably to the less fortunate who cant provide for themselves. Socialized systems are never righteous because they are based on false principles and corruption from those who get a little authority as they deem. Zion will never be based on socialisms implementation. It is just the opposite form of governence. Agency and protection of God given rights will rule the day once Zion is established. Until then wicked and conspiring men in the last days will continue to implement the philosophies of men.

[ChelC]

I am so so sorry but the anti welfare hobby horse,is very selective on punishing one group and ignoring many other wrongs.

I agree. This is absolutely true. We often turn our backs to corporate welfare and the rape and pillaging of average joe by corporations, but are pretty harsh on average joe who lives on the system.

I just wish you would see that both are wrong. I wish I could find the modern day version of Aesop's Ants and the Grasshopper tale. I'll try to hunt it down.

[ChelC]

Found it!

The fable concerns a grasshopper who has spent the warm months singing away while the ant (or ants in some editions) worked to store up food for winter. After the winter has come, the grasshopper finds itself dying of hunger, and upon asking the ant for food is only rebuked for its idleness. The story is used to teach the virtues of hard work and saving, and the perils of improvidence. Some versions of the fable state a moral at the end, along the lines of:
Idleness brings want
To work today is to eat tomorrow
It is best to prepare for the days of necessity


THE NEW LIBERAL VERSION OF THE SAME STORY
It starts out the same but when winter comes the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, NBC, and ABC show up and show pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to some film of the ant in his comfortable warm home with a table filled with food.
America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can it be, in a country of such wealth that this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?
Then a representative of the N.A.A.G.B. (The National Association of Green Bugs) shows up on Night Line and charges the ant with "Green Bias" and makes the case that the grasshopper is the victim of 30 million years of greenism. Kermit the frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper and everybody cries when he sings "It's Not Easy Being Green."
Bill and Hillary Clinton make a special guest appearance on the CBS evening news and tell a concerned Dan Rather that they will do everything they can for the grasshopper who has been denied the prosperity he deserves by those who benefitted unfairly during the summer, or as Bill refers to it, the "Temperatures Of The 80's".
Finally the E.E.O.C. drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Greenism Act" RETRO- ACTIVE to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and having nothing left to pay his Retro-Active Taxes, his home is confiscated by the government.
The modern version of the story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last little bits of the ant's food while the government house he's living in .... which just happens to be the ant's old house .... crumbles around him since he doesn't know or seem to care how to maintain it.
The ant has disappeared in the snow. And on the big screen TV, which the grasshopper bought by selling most of the ant's food, Bill Clinton is standing before a wildly applauding group of Liberals announcing that a new era of "Fairness" has dawned in America!

[shadow]

Moses, I don't want to hear your sad stories, trust me , we all have them. What I want to hear is principles. We can talk issues all day but until we get to the principles (eternal laws) we go no where. The war in Heaven was principle based. Agency or no agency. Lucifer wanted all to be saved (that's not bad is it?), at least that's what he said, and 1/3 believed him. He was willing to FORCE it so all could be saved. Did Gods plan involve force? At any time has God ever forced someone to follow Him? Certainly it's in our best interest to follow Him though isn't it? You want all to have health care. It's so good that you'd be willing to force all to participate. Do you see any similarities? Do you sense any principles that are being broken with your support of such a system? I do. The war isn't over bro. Think about what plan your supporting. God is allowing you to choose. Satan wouldn't have. How do you want to be governed?

[Moses]

The fable concerns a grasshopper who has spent the warm months singing away while the ant (or ants in some editions) worked to store up food for winter. After the winter has come, the grasshopper finds itself dying of hunger, and upon asking the ant for food is only rebuked for its idleness. The story is used to teach the virtues of hard work and saving, and the perils of improvidence. Some versions of the fable state a moral at the end, along the lines of:
Idleness brings want

So,you insinuate that Socialists are somehow supporting idleness. Just shows how little you do know about the subject. seems like the knowlege is based on cliche's and pet quotes. There is a big big difference between communism and socialism. Just as an aside, I dont support communism but look at their emblem the Hammer and sickle, doesnt that spell out work, not idleness?

I would say the socialists I know are very hard working (proud men) highly skilled and dedicated on building for others, and not the industry based on self that the Every man for himself theories that are promoted by the Conservatives both in the USA and Britain.

Moses, I don't want to hear your sad stories, trust me , we all have them

Are those your true colours ,Dont want to know the problems of others. Shame on you if thats how you really feel.

Principles, okay. I consider myself as much as Latter day saint as anyone of you, and I consider my principles to be sound. I care about results, and I totally reject that its evil to help others with the tax dollar. I dont who says it is.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

I have to side with the prophets on this one.

[Army Of Truth]

Like communism, socialism is also evil in theory and in practice. They both have as their end goals total state control and little or no individual freedom. They simply differ by their means of achieving them. It's collectivism versus individualism.

“No, brethren, socialism is not the United Order. However, notwithstanding my abhorrence of it, I am persuaded that socialism is the wave of the present and of the foreseeable future. We here in the United States, in converting our government into a social welfare state, have ourselves adopted much of socialism. Specifically, we have to an alarming degree adopted the use of the power of the state in the control and distribution of the fruits of industry.” – Marion G. Romney, GC April 1966, Address on socialism and the united order

"We must ever keep in mind that collectivized socialism is part of the communistic strategy. Communism is fundamentally socialism. When socialism is understood, we will realize that many of the programs advocated, and some of these already adopted in the U.S., fall clearly within the category of socialism. What is socialism? It is simply governmental ownership or management of the essential means for the production and distribution of goods and services. The socialistic-communistic conspiracy to weaken the U.S. involves attacks on many fronts. Their press and other propaganda media are therefore constantly selling the principles of centralized or federal control of farms, railroads, electric power, schools, steel, shipping, and many other aspects of the economy - but always in the name of public welfare." - Ezra Taft Benson - CR Oct 1961

[Moses]

Im not against the Prophets. False is false no matter who says it. 1 plus 1 is always 2

England has had a socialist government and Tony Blair for over a decade. Excuse me, back your rethoric with facts,where is his desire to take over peoples lives to the extent you claim in your quotes.

Many people say that mormonism is wrong and they cite racism, Polygamy. etc etc..... by your logic we have to support them, because we used to be all those things.


Your examples are right for a different subject for a different time. and a different place.

[Moses]

Ever heard of insurance

Yes I have heard of insurance. Even then, the insurance company is using my money to pay its claimants, and paying the same inflated costs to overpaid surgeons,Lawyers, and other opportunists. So you and others who object so much to being ripped off by government seem more than happy to have it ripped off by others, as long as they are not Socialists.

I put it to you the professional fraternities with substance have got there often by legalised plunder. IE. one operation or defending a law suit, or being sued for some trivial reason, costing a persons house.

Choice and force also exist where a monopoly and profiteering exist. that way the individual has nowhere else to go. Legal plunder are everywhere.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Like communism, socialism is also evil in theory and in practice. They both have as their end goals total state control and little or no individual freedom. They simply differ by their means of achieving them. It's collectivism versus individualism.

“No, brethren, socialism is not the United Order. However, notwithstanding my abhorrence of it, I am persuaded that socialism is the wave of the present and of the foreseeable future. We here in the United States, in converting our government into a social welfare state, have ourselves adopted much of socialism. Specifically, we have to an alarming degree adopted the use of the power of the state in the control and distribution of the fruits of industry.” – Marion G. Romney, GC April 1966, Address on socialism and the united order

"We must ever keep in mind that collectivized socialism is part of the communistic strategy. Communism is fundamentally socialism. When socialism is understood, we will realize that many of the programs advocated, and some of these already adopted in the U.S., fall clearly within the category of socialism. What is socialism? It is simply governmental ownership or management of the essential means for the production and distribution of goods and services. The socialistic-communistic conspiracy to weaken the U.S. involves attacks on many fronts. Their press and other propaganda media are therefore constantly selling the principles of centralized or federal control of farms, railroads, electric power, schools, steel, shipping, and many other aspects of the economy - but always in the name of public welfare." - Ezra Taft Benson - CR Oct 1961

How is it a different subject?

You are talking about socialism today, and he was talking about Socialism and that the PTB are pushing us towards it as part of the communist plan, and doing so under the idea that it is for the public welfare.

I bet you could find that Blair's pockets are pretty well lined.

[shadow]

Agency or force. It's all a matter of principle.

[Moses]

The acid test Do I feel forced? nor do I have any limitations on my freedom to preach the gospel, live the gospel, have free speech, set up a business, run it as I see fit.. Buy a house, sell it rent it. Choose any job I wish leave it, get another (different) job. I have freedom of travel, freedom to open a bank account. spend my money as I see fit.

I do not see any of the things that would limit my freedom.

The truth is, what really happens , not rethoric.

[a-train]

The acid test Do I feel forced? nor do I have any limitations on my freedom to preach the gospel, live the gospel, have free speech, set up a business, run it as I see fit.. Buy a house, sell it rent it. Choose any job I wish leave it, get another (different) job. I have freedom of travel, freedom to open a bank account. spend my money as I see fit.

I do not see any of the things that would limit my freedom.

The truth is, what really happens , not rethoric.

I hope we keep our liberty. State capitalism is a nasty monopolization. The only difference between state capitalism and socialism is that state capitalism distributes profits to an exclusive group while socialism at least pays lip service to a universal distribution of such profits, they both still enforce a liberty crushing mandated state monopoly. A mandated single payer system is just such a state mandated monopoly. Like the so-called social security program, it will ultimately demonstrate itself as nothing more than a right to property depriving failure.

Have we become so lazy that we would rather have the government take our alms out of our checks before we get them and do all the leg work in providing for the poor so we can go home to our xBox 360 without wasting our time donating to and volunteering for a private organization that provides medical services to the poor?

-a-train

[jbalm]

The acid test Do I feel forced? nor do I have any limitations on my freedom to preach the gospel, live the gospel, have free speech, set up a business, run it as I see fit.. Buy a house, sell it rent it. Choose any job I wish leave it, get another (different) job. I have freedom of travel, freedom to open a bank account. spend my money as I see fit.

There are always plenty of slavish people who don't mind having someone else make decisions for them.

Yes, you can preach the gospel, as long as you don't offend homosexuals.

You can speak freely, as long as you don't engage in "hate speech" (per the arbitrary definition of the day).

You can buy or build a house as long as you obey all the environmental, zoning, and whatever other regulations that apply. And of course, you must pay the government for permits for everything you want to do. And if you decide to rent your house out, be sure you don't violate any of the myriad of regulations that apply to that. And the house isn't really ever yours, because if you don't pay the property tax, you'll get the old heave ho.

You can get any job you want, just as long as it isn't one in which the government makes you buy a license from them. And try to open a business without the government elbow-deep in your rear end trying to control you like a sock puppet.

You can travel as long as your government issued papers are in order. And pay the fuel taxes, airline taxes, and whatever other taxes apply.

You can open a bank account. Whoopee. That makes it easier for the government to financially debilitate you if you are accused of a crime.

You can spend whatever money you have left after income taxes, property taxes, VAT, etc.

The fact is, you probably can't name a dozen things you can do that isn't regulated in some way by government. Basically, you're free to do what the government allows. No more. If that's all you want, fine. The problem is many people aren't that subservient.

We got this way because the slavish types outnumber those who like to face life's challenges on their own. Those who want their hand held all the time, and are afraid of life in general, are now the majority. They've discovered how to vote benefits for themselves out of the pockets of everyone else.

But being in the majority doesn't make you right. Quite the opposite usually. When I find myself in agreement with the majority, I always have to step back and reconsider my position.

The masses are asses. How else can you explain the popularity of Paris Hilton, the ratings of "American Idol," or the fact that "Three's Company" stayed on the air for 8 years?

[ChelC]

You can't even go to the bathroom without the government! Were I live, even if you have quite a bit of acreage you cannot use a septic tank. You must use low flow toilets too! There is a point system for farm animals so that heaven forbid, someone might smell a little chicken crap... but don't worry about all that cat crap or dog duke that is left all over my yard from someone else's animals, because if animals are cute and cuddly they are fine. It's just the kind that make you self sufficient that government has a problem with.

I'm just wondering when government will start regulating butt wiping. They have to keep us safe from ourselves, and I know a lot of people who've suffered from that one ply scratchy t.p.

Wear a seat belt, wear a helmet, make your kid wear a helmet to ride his tricycle in the driveway, make your kid sit in a booster seat until he's thirty five. You'd better discipline that twit and make him exercise and eat right, and if you don't the state will take him. You'd better be credentialed to teach that child at home or the state will take him. You'd better not spank your child on the rear end when he's naughty or the state might take him.

You cannot drive with a crack in your windshield, if your vehicle puts out exhaust, if your tires don't have enough tread, if your view is obstructed by a sticker, if you're too young, sometimes if you're too old, and definitely not if you're too short. You pay taxes on your paycheck, taxes on your gas, taxes when you buy anything, taxes when you win anything, taxes when you inherit anything, taxes when you go to a national or state public owned park, taxes on your house, taxes, taxes and more taxes or you go to jail. You can't drive your four wheeler down the rural street, on the sidewalk or anywhere that isn't a designated spot. If environmentalists have their way you won't be able to drive one at all unless you buy all the land that you drive it on. It is impossible for anyone to live a life on their own, build a house in the woods and live freely like any animal can do.

But count your blessings if the government lets you pretend to be free! After all, think how bad it could be.

[Army Of Truth]

The acid test Do I feel forced? nor do I have any limitations on my freedom to preach the gospel, live the gospel, have free speech, set up a business, run it as I see fit.. Buy a house, sell it rent it. Choose any job I wish leave it, get another (different) job. I have freedom of travel, freedom to open a bank account. spend my money as I see fit.

There are always plenty of slavish people who don't mind having someone else make decisions for them.
Yes, you can preach the gospel, as long as you don't offend homosexuals. (and belong to a 501c3 organization so that you can't speak politics in church)
You can speak freely, as long as you don't engage in "hate speech" (per the arbitrary definition of the day). (or as long as you stay in "speech free" zones when you say anything bad about the current administration and/or speak any truth that contradicts the governments theories like Constitution signs or 9/11 signs, etc.)
You can buy or build a house as long as you obey all the environmental, zoning, and whatever other regulations that apply. And of course, you must pay the government for permits for everything you want to do. And if you decide to rent your house out, be sure you don't violate any of the myriad of regulations that apply to that. And the house isn't really ever yours, because if you don't pay the property tax, you'll get the old heave ho.
You can get any job you want, just as long as it isn't one in which the government makes you buy a license from them. And try to open a business without the government elbow-deep in your rear end trying to control you like a sock puppet.
You can travel as long as your government issued papers are in order. And pay the fuel taxes, airline taxes, and whatever other taxes apply. (and as long as you have your National ID Card - coming soon thanks to DHS)
You can open a bank account. Whoopee. That makes it easier for the government to financially debilitate you if you are accused of a crime. (and as long as you have your National ID Card)
You can spend whatever money you have left after income taxes, property taxes, VAT, etc.
The fact is, you probably can't name a dozen things you can do that isn't regulated in some way by government. Basically, you're free to do what the government allows. No more. If that's all you want, fine. The problem is many people aren't that subservient. (How about a license to marry and license to drive? Why do we have to have permission from the government to do these activities while the founding fathers and every other American in their time didn't need "permission")
We got this way because the slavish types outnumber those who like to face life's challenges on their own. Those who want their hand held all the time, and are afraid of life in general, are now the majority. They've discovered how to vote benefits for themselves out of the pockets of everyone else.
But being in the majority doesn't make you right. Quite the opposite usually. When I find myself in agreement with the majority, I always have to step back and reconsider my position.
The masses are asses. How else can you explain the popularity of Paris Hilton, the ratings of "American Idol," or the fact that "Three's Company" stayed on the air for 8 years?

Well said, jbalm. I was about to go off but you beat me to it. 8)

“The more corrupt the State, the more it legislates.” – Cornelius Tacitus; Ancient Roman historian, 55 A.D – 120 A.D.

“The more laws, the less justice.” – Marcus Tullius Cicero

“There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him.” – Robert Heinlein

[shadow]

The acid test Do I feel forced? nor do I have any limitations on my freedom to preach the gospel, live the gospel, have free speech, set up a business, run it as I see fit.. Buy a house, sell it rent it. Choose any job I wish leave it, get another (different) job. I have freedom of travel, freedom to open a bank account. spend my money as I see fit.

I do not see any of the things that would limit my freedom.

The truth is, what really happens , not rethoric.

How about the rights to the fruits of your labor? Are you free to use those as you choose?

If a group of people want to form a community and ALL agree to a tax then great! More power to them. But when this group forces others to participate then a principle, an eternal law is broken.

Also, what I meant by not wanting to hear your sad stories is that the ends don't justify the means. You base your support of state welfare and universal health care on how it sometimes helps people. To that I agree, but that doesn't make it right. This is principle based, lets leave the emotions out of it. That's what I meant about the sad stories. I'm sorry for coming off as un-caring. It was a bad choice of words. My bad. Sometimes I get caught up in the passion of the argument.

Sometimes when I get headaches I'll go get a Mountain Dew. The caffeine helps me get rid of them. The end result is no more headache. Does that justify the drink?? I know, I'm weak. When Joseph Smith had his operation he denied the alcohol for pain relief. For him, the end (less pain) didn't justify the means (drinking alcohol). Now if he had chosen to take the alcohol, he could have given a sad story about the pain he would have had to go through without it. But it wouldn't have made it right in his mind.

[buffalo_girl]

Ever heard of insurance?

With very few exceptions, anything the government can do, free people can do better.

Now...who are the 'free people' who will come take care of me when I have West Nile Virus and am unable to lift my head from the floor? My Home Teacher or Visiting Teachers?

That may well be the reality some will face in the not so distant future.

No sob story, just the facts. Are we prepared to be a ZION People?

D&C 105:
5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

Under what principle do we refuse the petition of the sick and afflicted, the hungry and the poor?

Mosiah 4:
16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.
17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—
18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.
19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

[Moses]

Very weak responses.As I expected. To have a society on the scale that we have today , requires organisation and rules. A weakiness in people is an inability to be led, or governed. it is a lack of humilty or something like it.

The key to me after much thought, is the spirit of something. not the letter. Helping people is always good, and if something is not 100% according to the letter, it doesnt matter , if the spirit is right. The letter killeth.

I am appreciative of your points, but I am happy with the feeling I get from the status quo.

Kind regards

Moses