Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

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jbalm
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by jbalm »

I would argue that the principles of truth being discussed here were carried over from Europe.
This is absolutely correct. The U.S. Constitution is a direct descendant of the Magna Carta, which for its time was a much more revolutionary document than was the Constitution.

But a free nation is much like a new car. A new car is never as pristine as the day you drive it off the lot. No matter how hard you try to maintain it, over the years little dings and scratches appear, until someday, its just another old car.

Likewise, the U.S. was never so pristine as when the Constitution was first ratified. Almost immediately after that freedoms began to be compromised until we find ourselves in our present predicament.

England's car is just older than ours.

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ChelC
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by ChelC »

Yeah, but a pristinely restored car can be better than new, and cherished more carefully too when you know what can happen to it and how hard it was to get there.

Just think how fantastic it will be when we fix up the old clunker.

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shadow
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by shadow »

Interesting question. How many would help the poor if not forced to? First I must say that it is the welfare system that has created so much poor. Not that there wouldn't be poor among us, just not as much. I then think about how the church is set up. It's members pay a tithe and a generous fast offering. I remember as a deacon going to the inactive members of our ward collecting a fast offering on fast Sunday. And guess what? They donated!! A good society will never let the poor and the hungry go without. Now I'm not so naive as to think that ALL will donate. But enough will to provide. But it's foolish to mandate a tax so the government can redistribute as it sees fit. The D&C speaks about what men do when given a little power. Certainly Moses can see the unrighteous dominion governments, including Englands, heavy hand exercises? Well, maybe he can't.

I also want to point out that as a church, we don't practice the law of consecration as of yet, but that time will come. And even then, we will be able to meet with our Bishop and figure out what our excess is. I'm guessing no jail time for consecration evasion.

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by HeirofNumenor »

but I was wondering what it would be like if suddenly the welfare state disappeared, and with it went mandatory taxation. Would people step up and provide for the poor and hungry by choice? That would be interesting for sure.
"I recall hearing that James Madison said something to the effect of:

"Nothing will encourage the people to give of themselves generously to help those around them, when they are completely secure in their income, free from taxation."

(paraphrased according to the best of my recollection).

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

Food is a central part of Tlingit culture, and the land is an abundant provider. A saying amongst the Tlingit is that "when the tide goes out the table is set". This refers to the richness of intertidal life found on the beaches of Southeast Alaska, most of which can be harvested for food. Another saying is that "in Lingít Aaní you have to be an idiot to starve". Since food is so easy to gather from the beaches, a person who can't feed himself at least enough to stay alive is considered to be a fool, perhaps mentally incompetent or suffering from very bad luck. However, though eating off the beach would provide a fairly healthy and varied diet, eating nothing but "beach food" is considered contemptible among the Tlingit, and a sign of poverty. Indeed, shamans and their families were required to abstain from all food gathered from the beach, and men might avoid eating beach food before battles or strenuous activities in the belief that it would weaken them spiritually and perhaps physically as well. Thus for both spiritual reasons as well as to add some variety to the diet, the Tlingit harvest many other resources for food besides those which are easily found outside their front doors. No other food resource receives as much emphasis as salmon; however seal and game are both close seconds.
If the resources were available to any of sound mind and body, then charity would be limited to those absolutely unable to provide for themselves.

All that the various forms of welfare have done is increase the number of those unable to provide for themselves (with the eventual goal of all being included). Wait, isn't absolute dependence satan's plan? Then why permit him to "buy up everything"(with worthless currency) and extort us thereby?

Ask Buffalo Girl how the government feels about self sufficiency. The combine does not like it at all! It is in direct opposition to satan's plan. Ergo, want to know a good way to fight? Promote widespread self sufficiency.

That the church might stand independent of all things here below.

Proud 2b Peculiar
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

D&C 98: 5
5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.

D&C 109: 54.
54 Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the nations of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever.

D&C 101
77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;

D&C 134
5 We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

The US is currently the most charitible nation in the world. If they knew that there was need here, they would fill it.

The true need is unknown due to government intervention. The intervention kind of numbs people from reality, what is really going on. When you try to live off the system after being on it, like we have, it is easier to feel the economical changes, and realize that something is up. It makes it possible to make better decisions to be more prepared.

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Moses
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by Moses »

Where there is no welfare there is abject poverty. England has proven this.

Prior to the introduction of welfarism , when the rich we free to make a difference to the poor, but didnt they had their chance, Kids were suffering on a large scale with malnutrition, rickets, TB , Polio and all manner of diseases. People not working were often called "lunatics" and put into asylums. Churches did all they could to help but it was crumbs at the table. but it was not until the welfare state that, these sufferings were alleviated. And we hear quotes that welfare is evil??????

No wonder the scriptures say in the last days men will call evil good and good evil

If some people abuse welfare, then thats a problem between them and their concience and ultimately God. But we must not stop helping those who are genuine, just because of the ones who are dishonest.

Proud 2b Peculiar
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

Welfare is not wrong, in the sense of providing willingly for your fellowman. Good Christian Charity is a just and holy principle. So there is no calling good evil here.

What is evil, is stealing in order to provide for others. Satan will use many truths to get you to accept one lie.

The reality is, that the people of England experienced poverty like they did because their wealth was robbed from them. Even though their ancestors had once lived by higher laws, and had abundance, eventually, they were conquered. They were conquered by the same system that is destroying America now. There was so much suffering because of this greed and selfishness. And in the welfare state, greed is still a factor. Those that have put in the programs get to take money from everyone who works at all. They have legalized the robbery of the fruit of their labors. That money that is taken still has to cover administration and line a few pockets before it is used to help the people.

This same system, which is controlled by Satan, is trying to take over the entire world. In countries like Iran, or any other nation that is Islamic, they do not believe in Usury. But those that are conquering them, are helping to install a usury system. That system transfers the wealth, and when it reaches its full goals, it will have robbed all people and have left them without property and homeless. It brings to pass the destruction of nations and free people. Not saying that Iraq was free, the US had been pressing them under their thumb indirectly for some time now.

It can be hard to understand these things. When I was living off the state system of welfare, I did not understand that I was doing something wrong. I felt ashamed that I needed the help, and that on that help, I lived better then those that were paying in to it that I knew. After studying the way that the church did things, and my bishop warning me to use the church rather then the state, I realized the HUGE difference between the systems. One is of God, the other is Satan's counterfeit that robs. Once I truly understood that, there is no way that I could any longer partake of the spoils of Babylon.

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jbalm
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by jbalm »

Prior to the introduction of welfarism , when the rich we free to make a difference to the poor, but didnt they had their chance, Kids were suffering on a large scale with malnutrition, rickets, TB , Polio and all manner of diseases.
Are you sure that the reason for the poverty was the lack of a welfare state? I ask this because a lack of freedom, or excessive regulation, is often a cause of poverty. Historically, those who are given nothing but the unbridled freedom to pursue their interests are quite prosperous.

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jbalm
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by jbalm »

No wonder the scriptures say in the last days men will call evil good and good evil
Such as...the LDS prophets? None of them have been complimentary to governments' forcible redistribution of wealth. Many have spoken openly against it.

As for the wealthy who neglected the poor, they will be judged accordingly.

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WYp8riot
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by WYp8riot »

I havent been convinced that taxes are used for helping the needy. Which specific tax does so?

Some local taxes may go to public education etc, but which specific tax is actually used ditrectly for benifit of needy and not benifit of the more evil and fraudulent monetary system?

Before the debate continues, there should be some proof that taxation was used in such a manner? My iunderstanding is that all that money comes from more borrowing (bondage of the citizens) from the banking cartel. We may continue to support such while our country is near collapse.

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ChelC
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by ChelC »

We are arguing in circles now.

Moses holds the same belief as do the majority of the voting base in this nation. It just opens my eyes more to the challenge ahead.

I hope Moses will read the entire text of the Manifesto that I recommended, and the proper role of government for starters. There is nothing humane in this system. If there were not enough Christians to support the poor without tax, if indeed that is the whole story, then it just proves that no system will survive without religious conviction. Anyone who would see that need and not try to fill it will have to answer for such disregard. That doesn't make the system right.

Under the Lord's plan many would be lost. Does that make Satan's plan correct? Why not?

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shadow
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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by shadow »

Again Moses, my disconnect with you is your belief that welfare is somehow only tied to government and taxes. That is NOT true. Forced welfare is NO welfare at all. Think it through.

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Re: Rights are given by God statement TOO NARROW

Post by creator »

...going back to the first statement in this discussion...
The statement "Rights are given by God" whilst true is too narrow and it lends support to right wing dogma that distorts the "Picture as a whole"
My 2 cents,

I think it depends on your perspective. Your comments reminded me of what W. Cleon Skousen once taught me:

“Everyone can choose right from wrong. But there is no right to do wrong.” He went on to explain “There is no right to abort a baby.” Just as there is no right to murder or steal. There was a man in the class who asked if it's right for the Government to control certain things and to this Dr. Skousen responded “You are not violating their rights by not allowing them to do wrong. . . If you are not obedient to God you have no agency.”

I think with that understanding "Rights are given by God" is not too narrow, because those god-given rights are only the right to do that whic is good; so I don't see how it could lend support to right wing dogma when understood in the correct light.

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