Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves

[Darren]

I believe that I have seen the issue that is going to divide the Church in the Last Days

The issue is wither the Church is to be lead primarily by its head or primarily by its heart.

Should the Church be lead by its Heart or by its Head? By the Spirit or Policy?

Ever heard the statement, “Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves?”

Have you ever lived in a Church Unit that runs more by policy rather than more by the spirit?

As I see it this is the big issue of the next few years in the Church, and I see a great division in the Church over this issue.

Please respond with your perspective on this.

This is what happened this weekend:

My son who is 19 and waiting for his mission call has been teaching the 9 year old primary class.

Last Saturday evening he got a call from a sister (2nd councilor Stake President's wife, and mother to the Branch President) in the branch asking him to attend the temple preparation class that next morning. My son attempted to call the Primary President to get a substitute but was unable to reach anyone.

My wife all excited in getting this young man ready for his mission suggested that she could cover for him in his primary class at the last minute, so he could attend the temple preparation class that next morning in Sunday School.

My wife who has recently been released from the primary presidency just a few months ago, had just started my son's lesson in the 9 year old primary class when the Branch President looks into the class and acting most disturbed said, “We have a Policy that only teachers on a list may substitute.”

My wife was immediately devastated by the comment and was quite offended, she took it personally, and told me that she no longer wants to attend church.

Thinking about what happened has caused me to reflect on the recent push to dictate to members things like, what they should say in their testimonies over the pulpit.

I think this is a very important issue for the members of this forum as I am aware that many of us are home schoolers, John Birchers, Constitutionalists, and that you like myself follow your hearts much more than you follow all the advise or policy mixing at all levels in the Church, not that you loose you heads, it is just that you put much into following you hearts.

D&C 121:36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

The Church has a Handbook of Instructions, not a Policy and Proceedures Manual.

In the Handbook of Instructions it says something like this, "Follow the Scriptures, the words of the Prophets, and the promptings of the Holy Spirit." That the purpose of the Handbook of Instructions is to help us operate our local units according to the Law of God, not the policy of man. Is this not true?

Someone with access to the Handbook of Instructions please get the exact quote.

What do you think about Leaders in the Church coming out with policies that micro-manage the Church, all the callings, anything and everything that goes on in your Church, leaving little room for following the spirit in operating your Church Unit?

God Bless,
Darren

[AussieOi]

I believe that I have seen the issue that is going to divide the Church in the Last Days

The issue is wither the Church is to be lead primarily by its head or primarily by its heart.

Should the Church be lead by its Head or by its Heart? By the Spirit or Policy?

Ever heard the statement, “Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves?”

Have you ever lived in a Church Unit that runs by more by policy rather than more by the spirit?

As I see it this is the big issue of the next few years in the Church, and I see a great division in the Church over this issue.

Please respond with your perspective on this.

This is what happened this weekend:

My son who is 19 and waiting for his mission call has been teaching the 9 year old primary class.

Last Saturday evening he got a call from a sister (2nd councilor Stake President's wife, and mother to the Branch President) in the branch asking him to attend the temple preparation class that next morning. My son attempted to call the Primary President to get a substitute but was unable to reach anyone.

My wife all excited in getting this young man ready for his mission suggested that she could cover for him in his primary class at the last minute, so he could attend the temple preparation class that next morning in Sunday School.

My wife who has recently been released from the primary presidency just a few months ago, had just started my son's lesson in the 9 year old primary class when the Branch President looks into the class and acting most disturbed said, “We have a Policy that only teachers on a list may substitute.”

My wife was immediately devastated by the comment and was quite offended, she took it personally, and told me that she no longer wants to attend church.

Thinking about what happened has caused me to reflect in the recent push to dictate to members things like, what they should say in their testimonies over the pulpit.

I think this is a very important issue for the members of this forum as I am aware that many of them are home schoolers, John Birchers, Constitutionalists, and you follow your hearts much more than you follow your heads, not that you loose you heads, it is just that you put much into following you hearts.

What would you do if the Leaders of the Church came out with policies that micro-manage the Church, leaving little room for following the spirit in running your Church Unit?

God Bless,
Darren

what do you mean "IF"? how long you been going to church? wow. welcomed the your standard high council meeting.

what a jerk this woman was. approved list?

they're idiots. maybe she should have told primary president as a courtesy she was covering.....but that's still a maybe.

All the same your wife took it too personally. Man, if she only just gets over this one she'll be back out the door in a fortnight when the next headcase rubs her up the wrong way.

i'm a member_despite the other members like that.

lists, she was on the presidency, what a joke.

must say i've never heard of this policy. is it in the church handbook? I love the handbook, makes it easy for us.

[Darren]

I made a few changes to the original post:

I believe that I have seen the issue that is going to divide the Church in the Last Days

The issue is wither the Church is to be lead primarily by its head or primarily by its heart.

Should the Church be lead by its Heart or by its Head? By the Spirit or Policy?

Ever heard the statement, “Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves?”

Have you ever lived in a Church Unit that runs more by policy rather than more by the spirit?

As I see it this is the big issue of the next few years in the Church, and I see a great division in the Church over this issue.

Please respond with your perspective on this.

This is what happened this weekend:

My son who is 19 and waiting for his mission call has been teaching the 9 year old primary class.

Last Saturday evening he got a call from a sister (2nd councilor Stake President's wife, and mother to the Branch President) in the branch asking him to attend the temple preparation class that next morning. My son attempted to call the Primary President to get a substitute but was unable to reach anyone.

My wife all excited in getting this young man ready for his mission suggested that she could cover for him in his primary class at the last minute, so he could attend the temple preparation class that next morning in Sunday School.

My wife who has recently been released from the primary presidency just a few months ago, had just started my son's lesson in the 9 year old primary class when the Branch President looks into the class and acting most disturbed said, “We have a Policy that only teachers on a list may substitute.”

My wife was immediately devastated by the comment and was quite offended, she took it personally, and told me that she no longer wants to attend church.

Thinking about what happened has caused me to reflect on the recent push to dictate to members things like, what they should say in their testimonies over the pulpit.

I think this is a very important issue for the members of this forum as I am aware that many of us are home schoolers, John Birchers, Constitutionalists, and that you like myself follow your hearts much more than you follow all the advise or policy mixing at all levels in the Church, not that you loose you heads, it is just that you put much into following you hearts.

D&C 121:36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

The Church has a Handbook of Instructions, not a Policy and Procedures Manual.

In the Handbook of Instructions it says something like this, "Follow the Scriptures, the words of the Prophets, and the promptings of the Holy Spirit." That the purpose of the Handbook of Instructions is to help us operate our local units according to the Law of God, not the policy of man. Is this not true?

Someone with access to the Handbook of Instructions please get the exact quote.

What do you think about Leaders in the Church coming out with policies that micro-manage the Church, all the callings, anything and everything that goes on in your Church, leaving little room for following the spirit in operating your Church Unit?

God Bless,
Darren

AussieOi,
I think us guys are a little more thick skinned than the gals. Something like this I would have just blown off, it will take my wife a long while. This I know from experience.

I wish I could find a copy of the Handbook of Instructions, the Church actively pursues anyone who posts a copy on the internet. Does anyone have a copy they can email me?

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Darren,

I am shocked, yet not, that your wife and I experienced similar hurts on the same day.

I woke up this morning still feeling a lot of hurt. I got a blessing from my husband, but I still have a sense of being stunned.

You mentioned policy, and I have felt that I suddenly am in public school rather then primary because of the policies that we have there.

There are a few things that were mentioned in this meeting that bothered me.

1. I felt that my testimony was attacked. While I have experienced anti-Mormon's and other members that would get frustrated with me, I have never had a direct attack on my testimony, and that hurt.

2. I was told that it was received negatively, and felt that the counselor was talking about himself only.

3. The counselor pointed out that since I was given my calling of teaching in primary that the Primary President is concerned because I missed two Sundays, and they had to get a substitute. The truth is, my husband got the substitute to work with him, and that he has not missed one Sunday. I missed a Sunday due to my endometriosis, and another Sunday due to being sick, which was a result from over-extending myself.

4. The issue I think that is going on is the fact that there needs to be a couple or two priesthood holders in each classroom because it is policy for a man not to teach alone. My husband made sure that this policy was met, but there was concern in me not being consistent enough.

I felt like this 'talk' was poking at any weakness that I was perceived to have by others either the counselor himself, or the Primary President.

Before I spoke up, I literally had the feeling of picking up my things and leaving. I wanted to leave the room rather then deal with what was being said, but instead I felt this push to defend rather then run. So, that is what I did.

The spirit I felt then, the spirit I felt during my blessing this morning, combined with the letter from President Hinckley, who I wrote to about these exact issues, has been a comfort to me.

I will not leave the church because of the positions that others take, but what I must fight is the desire to be silent and never to speak again.

When I stood and bore that testimony, I knew in the depths of my heart that it would be the last one that I gave in that ward. I knew that I would be moving.

This interview has only made me see that it is time for me to return to a smaller ward, and why I was getting the impressions I was to prepare to move soon.

As soon as the needed repairs are completed, I will go.

One thing I am thankful for, is that the counselor had asked that we leave our children outside the room for this conversation. I am glad that they did not have to hear any of this.

All of my family, except for me, bore their testimonies yesterday. The children got up all on their own, and were near the very first of the meeting. I am proud of them, I am glad that they are growing in the gospel. And maybe this move is just as much for them.

Darren, hug your wife for me. I know how she is feeling, and I also know what a good woman she is. Tell her that the true test is still returning to worship the Lord, despite the acts of others. As I have always been taught, living a life of service and happiness is the greatest revenge LOL.... Continue to serve the Lord. We are there for Him, and our families. We may be able to serve, love and help others, but our main purpose is to be strengthened and to renew our covenants.

[Darren]

Thanks LoveChrist,

It is going to take some additional help to get her through this.

I will mention your experiance to her, and we will pray for you too.

And thank you to the kind person who sent me a copy of the Handbook of Instructions.

I found the quote I was looking for:

Introduction

The Lord admonished, "Wherefore, now let every man learn his duty, and to act in the office in which he is appointed, in all diligence" (D&C 107:99; see also D&C 105:10).

Church leaders should seek personal revelation to help them learn and fulfill the duties of their callings.

Studying the scriptures and the teachings of latter-day prophets will also help leaders learn their duties. The Lord has admonished leaders to treasure up in their minds continually the words of God so they will be receptive to the influence of the Spirit (see D&C 84:85).

85 Neither take ye thought beforehand what ye shall say; but treasure up in your minds continually the words of life, and it shall be given you in the very hour that portion that shall be meted unto every man.

The Church is run by revelation from the Holy Ghost, not by the Policy of man.

God Bless,
Darren

[ShineOn]

There is one thing that may be relevant in this situation, I don't know. But wards and branches have to be a little careful with who they let be teachers and substitute teachers for primary and youth. I'm sure your wife is fine, but because of risks of abuse, some wards and branches have to have a list of members who are cleared to teach. I have been in a branch where there was at least (that I knew of) man that really liked hanging out with the youth and would love to teach, but he was a child molester. I doubt that everyone knew that, so some teacher might have thought they he would make a good person to sub for him. In this scenario, the Branch President would been in a really awkward situation Sunday morning find that a child molester was going to be teaching young kids. Should he prevent him, or just let him and hope nothing happens? This is one reason some wards and branches have lists for subs. The Primary Preside can show this list to the Bishop and he can basically approves everyone on it, or not. This keeps everything confidential but keeps those from teaching who shouldn't be teaching.

I don't know if this is what is going on in your branch, but it wouldn't surprise me. I see\hear people's concerns every once in awhile with policy or some apparently overbearing actions from local church leaders, and all I've got to say is that I have known of some situation where the leaders are actually protecting the members, unbeknownst to them. I have also seen members who seem to be treated un fairly or unequally than other members, only to find out that have some major issues in their private lives that they refuse to correct. I'm not claiming that's how it always is, but the farther I can stay away from issue the Bishop deal with, the better. It's depressing having to deal with abuse problems, marriage problems, immorality, and everything else, and then have to try to make the meetings be spiritually edifying. Even in the "good" wards, there are some scary people, or some people with scary problems.

[Darren]

ShineOn,
Your point was well taken. But the Branch President in the above situtaion I mentioned was not tactful in his comments to my wife. Teachers List or not, what he said to my wife as she was beginning to teach in front of the class was very painful.

My wife and I discussed the potential list and why it would be there. But that does not account for this confrontation when my wife, a previous councilor in the primary presidency, is confronted in such a situation. It is a no brainer to just let my wife teach and maybe mention the list to her later, everyone in the branch knows her to be a good person.

Common sense is gone. It died when the Policy replaced God's Law.

Thank you for your comments.
Darren

[Mark]

Your wife needs to read a talk given by Catherine Thomas titled "Zion and the Spirit of At-one-ment" Darren. It is profoundly insightful and must be understood and practiced by all who want to make it thru the trials of this life. Otherwise the adversary as a roaring lion will devour any who do not internalize these principles and let them find place in their hearts.


http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table= ... ipts&id=35

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Darren, these helped me, maybe they will help your sweetheart.

John 14: 27
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

D&C 82: 23
23 Leave judgment alone with me, for it is mine and I will repay. Peace be with you; my blessings continue with you.

[ShawnC]

I believe that I have seen the issue that is going to divide the Church in the Last Days

The issue is wither the Church is to be lead primarily by its head or primarily by its heart.

Should the Church be lead by its Heart or by its Head? By the Spirit or Policy?

Ever heard the statement, “Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves?”

Have you ever lived in a Church Unit that runs more by policy rather than more by the spirit?

As I see it this is the big issue of the next few years in the Church, and I see a great division in the Church over this issue.

Please respond with your perspective on this.

This is what happened this weekend:

My son who is 19 and waiting for his mission call has been teaching the 9 year old primary class.

Last Saturday evening he got a call from a sister (2nd councilor Stake President's wife, and mother to the Branch President) in the branch asking him to attend the temple preparation class that next morning. My son attempted to call the Primary President to get a substitute but was unable to reach anyone.

My wife all excited in getting this young man ready for his mission suggested that she could cover for him in his primary class at the last minute, so he could attend the temple preparation class that next morning in Sunday School.

My wife who has recently been released from the primary presidency just a few months ago, had just started my son's lesson in the 9 year old primary class when the Branch President looks into the class and acting most disturbed said, “We have a Policy that only teachers on a list may substitute.”

My wife was immediately devastated by the comment and was quite offended, she took it personally, and told me that she no longer wants to attend church.

Thinking about what happened has caused me to reflect on the recent push to dictate to members things like, what they should say in their testimonies over the pulpit.

I think this is a very important issue for the members of this forum as I am aware that many of us are home schoolers, John Birchers, Constitutionalists, and that you like myself follow your hearts much more than you follow all the advise or policy mixing at all levels in the Church, not that you loose you heads, it is just that you put much into following you hearts.

D&C 121:36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

The Church has a Handbook of Instructions, not a Policy and Proceedures Manual.

In the Handbook of Instructions it says something like this, "Follow the Scriptures, the words of the Prophets, and the promptings of the Holy Spirit." That the purpose of the Handbook of Instructions is to help us operate our local units according to the Law of God, not the policy of man. Is this not true?

Someone with access to the Handbook of Instructions please get the exact quote.

What do you think about Leaders in the Church coming out with policies that micro-manage the Church, all the callings, anything and everything that goes on in your Church, leaving little room for following the spirit in operating your Church Unit?

God Bless,
Darren

Just address it with the Branch President. If he wants to allow himself to "not be wrong" then that is his own problem. Don't allow that to affect you.
I had a Bishop who in my opinion is an exceptionally arrogant man, and who yelled at me for questioning him on more than one occasion. I tried to humbly address the problems with him and he purposefully avoided me. It's OK if he wants to damage relationships. I truly don't hold it against him. He was put into the Stake Presidency shortly after that. I spoke with the Stake President about my concerns and the Stake President spoke with him. He humbly apologized which I appreciated. I wish it could have been in different circumstances, instead of him being compelled to confront the issue, but I won;t leave the church because of it. My new Bishop said something very rude to me because of a misunderstanding and I let him know that I felt that it was very rude. He called me up and humbly apologized and there are no hard feelings at all.
When anyone allows their pride to convince them that they are offended and that they will not attend church to prove some point which is essentially trying to prove themselves right and that they need some sort of apology, then they are wrong, 100%. What it really is, is just a way of somehow holding something above another. I am going to be mad and stay away from church just to be able to justify my feeling which are just feelings that the adversary is exploiting to inflame our pride and keep us away from church.
Believe me, I have been through such stuff over and over. It's pointless. Get over it. President Benson said that there is no such thing as righteous pride and I believe him. If you believe the truth is within the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that such truth is instituted through the organization of the LDS church, then that is good. Don't choose to allow someone else to keep you from partaking of that truth.
If not, then you can take it upon yourself to believe that you have been called of God to separate yourself from Babylon, and go to Manti or Missouri or someplace and start your own church or commune type group.

I know this sounds somewhat harsh, but I have seen how these things start time and again. Members may mock and offend, but true HUMBLE followers of Christ are not affected by such because they know where their strength is and where their heart belongs. Know what I mean? Of all people I think you Darren do know what I mean. Like President Hinckley said, "forget yourself, and go to work".

Shawn

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

If not, then you can take it upon yourself to believe that you have been called of God to separate yourself from Babylon, and go to Manti or Missouri or someplace and start your own church or commune type group.

We do have a third example from the Book of Mormon in Alma 32.

[truthseeker]

Your wife needs to read a talk given by Catherine Thomas titled "Zion and the Spirit of At-one-ment" Darren. It is profoundly insightful and must be understood and practiced by all who want to make it thru the trials of this life. Otherwise the adversary as a roaring lion will devour any who do not internalize these principles and let them find place in their hearts.


http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table= ... ipts&id=35

Mark, thank you so much for posting this article. I think this is something I really needed.

[TCG]

The church is true......and slap his face. Tell that fool he betta recognize.

[Mark]

Thank you for your kind response truthseeker. I felt that someone here would appreciate reading this talk. I am glad to know that someone did. The principles taught are life changing for those with ears to hear. My best to you in your quest for at-one-ment.