Liberty

[mingano]

They want to be free but practice wickedness to their hearts content. To enjoy their stripper parties while ranting about individual liberties all while inherently knowing that money will dictate the resolution.

Sorry, I'm a libertarian and don't want to enjoy a stripper party. Clearly you haven't got a clue.

FYI - I'm not the one calling several prophets liars.

I didn't call a prophet a liar, but you said that I did. Who is the liar here?

Despite President Grant making the declaration over the pulpit in General Conference as a prophet - both in counsel and regret following the saints choices....as well as several following prophets who testified of his position on it as God's spokesman (also in General Conference). Well hopefully you wake up and recognize libertarianism for what it is rather than stiffening your neck and getting your back up in defense of your skewed paradigm.

If I print up the Constitution on some toilet paper will you happily use it?

[Walden]

They want to be free but practice wickedness to their hearts content. To enjoy their stripper parties while ranting about individual liberties all while inherently knowing that money will dictate the resolution.

Sorry, I'm a libertarian and don't want to enjoy a stripper party. Clearly you haven't got a clue.

FYI - I'm not the one calling several prophets liars.

I didn't call a prophet a liar, but you said that I did. Who is the liar here?

Despite President Grant making the declaration over the pulpit in General Conference as a prophet - both in counsel and regret following the saints choices....as well as several following prophets who testified of his position on it as God's spokesman (also in General Conference). Well hopefully you wake up and recognize libertarianism for what it is rather than stiffening your neck and getting your back up in defense of your skewed paradigm.

If I print up the Constitution on some toilet paper will you happily use it?

+1 I also associate myself with the libertarians. You people who attack them don't understand that there is more then one type of libertarian.

[mingano]

I've studied it enough to know I want no part of it.

Are you going to kill me if I don't do what you want? That is what your way advocates.

From the folks who funded it to the basic premises of the religion (with all its key words just like the new age movement - force, violence, etc).

Religion? You are equating constructionism with a religion?

Libertarianism preaches Utopia

Boy, what in THE heck are you talking about? Libertarianism doesn't preach utopia - for you to claim so clearly indicates that you haven't the slightest clue about libertarians. Libertarians believe in personal responsibility that a Constitutionally limited government. That's pretty much it.

but in application practices craft and deceit. The proponents ignore God and the moral or natural law aspect of society.

Again, you haven't the slightest clue about this. If I wanted to read fiction then I'd pick up a copy of The Economic Consequences of the Peace.

They want to be free but practice wickedness to their hearts content.

Judgmental little git, ain't you? In the first place, libertarians come from all walks of life - some will have different moral values than you and some will not. Some see no harm in promiscuity and others do. Some see no harm in strippers and some do. Some are pro-life, some are pro-abortion. It is incredibly offensive that you deem somebody wicked just because they don't believe in unlimited welfare, police and military power.

Despite President Grant making the declaration over the pulpit in General Conference as a prophet - both in counsel and regret following the saints choices....as well as several following prophets who testified of his position on it as God's spokesman (also in General Conference).

SWK openly declared Brigham Young to be wrong about Adam-God. In general conference. Do you accuse one prophet of calling another prophet a liar?

Well hopefully you wake up and recognize libertarianism for what it is

I would be happy to discuss it as soon as you have even a glimmer of a token passing awareness of what libertarianism is. In the meantime, how is Wickard v Filburn working out for you? You agree with that decision, right? If you don't then you share significant overlap with libertarians.

[Jason]

They want to be free but practice wickedness to their hearts content. To enjoy their stripper parties while ranting about individual liberties all while inherently knowing that money will dictate the resolution.

Sorry, I'm a libertarian and don't want to enjoy a stripper party. Clearly you haven't got a clue.

The stripper comment is in reference to Hans-Hermann Hoppe (of the MISES Institute) having strippers circulate amongst the crowd at his annual gathering of "The Property and Freedom Society". I could provide numerous other related references to such activities that aren't in alignment with their preaching (like MISES president Douglas French's banking practices)....but there's probably no point considering how far deeply you are buried in this crap.

FYI - I'm not the one calling several prophets liars.

I didn't call a prophet a liar, but you said that I did. Who is the liar here?

Great question -

President Grant, a Word of Wisdom advocate, called Prohibition “the greatest financial and moral blessing that has ever come to humanity.”

This was his personal opinion, and I do not believe that it was a revelation from God because God could not possibly have been so wrong about anything.

I have never felt so humiliated in my life over anything as that the State of Utah voted for the repeal of Prohibition.

- President Heber J. Grant, Conference, Oct. 1934

From this very stand he pleaded with us not to repeal the Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. He didn't speak as Heber J. Grant, the man, he spoke as the President of the Church and the representative of our Heavenly Father.

- George Albert Smith, Conference, Oct 1943

One of the saddest days in all of Utah's history was when the people, including the Latter-day Saints (for it could not have been done without them), rejected the counsel and urging of the Lord's prophet, Heber J. Grant, and repealed Prohibition long years ago--yet many of those voters had sung numerous times, "We Thank Thee, O God, For A Prophet."

- The Teachings of Spencer. W. Kimball

I go back to the words of Jehoshaphat: “Believe in the Lord your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.” (2 Chr. 20:20.)

There are many little things that test our willingness to accept the word of the prophets. Jesus said, “How often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” (Matt. 23:37.)

So it has been through the history of mankind, and so it is today. In our own communities, even here in Utah, we have experienced some of this. President Grant carried to his grave a deep sense of sorrow that, contrary to his counsel, the people of Utah cast the final vote, in 1934, that repealed the Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution.

I am grateful to say that we had a different experience some years ago when we joined with other citizens in a campaign to control the distribution of liquor. There is no question in my mind that great benefits have come as a result of the overwhelming response to direction from our prophet.

- President Gordan B. Hinckley, "Believe His Prophets", General Conference April 1992

Despite President Grant making the declaration over the pulpit in General Conference as a prophet - both in counsel and regret following the saints choices....as well as several following prophets who testified of his position on it as God's spokesman (also in General Conference). Well hopefully you wake up and recognize libertarianism for what it is rather than stiffening your neck and getting your back up in defense of your skewed paradigm.

If I print up the Constitution on some toilet paper will you happily use it?

You may as well and use it yourself because you obviously haven't studied it nor understand its precepts. Instead its just a word you use to push your opinion which is at odds with not only the prophets but God. Obviously contradicting the Constitution in the process which was established by God.

It is fascinating how people justify throwing the "Constitution" around to support wickedness (chain people down to addictions of both substances and body chemistry) when that would be one of the last things on God's agenda in establishing it.

[mingano]

[quote="Legion"This was his personal opinion, and I do not believe that it was a revelation from God because God could not possibly have been so wrong about anything.[/quote]

Wow you have a... unique... way of interpreting things. I didn't say he was a liar, I said that he had a personal opinion. Since you claimed that I said something that I clearly did not then that makes you the liar.

I go back to the words of Jehoshaphat: “Believe in the Lord your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.” (2 Chr. 20:20.)

So you are telling us to believe in Adam-God? Or that people live on the sun?

If I print up the Constitution on some toilet paper will you happily use it?

You may as well and use it yourself because you obviously haven't studied it nor understand its precepts.

HA! Bring it on. You can start by using the Constitution to justify civil forfeiture. Go on, give it a shot. What is there in the Constitution that justifies your advocacy to simply confiscate personal property without a warrant or trial and to force the victims of the overt government theft to prove innocence. Go on, give it a shot.

It is fascinating how people justify throwing the "Constitution" around to support wickedness (chain people down to addictions of both substances and body chemistry) when that would be one of the last things on God's agenda in establishing it.

Holy freaking crap you're an offensive little git. There are so many things wrong with your statement and so many questions that I have raised that you ignored.

Let me know when you can justify civil forfeiture. Until then you have nothing of value to contribute.

[Jason]

This was his personal opinion, and I do not believe that it was a revelation from God because God could not possibly have been so wrong about anything.

Wow you have a... unique... way of interpreting things. I didn't say he was a liar, I said that he had a personal opinion. Since you claimed that I said something that I clearly did not then that makes you the liar.

I go back to the words of Jehoshaphat: “Believe in the Lord your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.” (2 Chr. 20:20.)

So you are telling us to believe in Adam-God? Or that people live on the sun?

If I print up the Constitution on some toilet paper will you happily use it?

You may as well and use it yourself because you obviously haven't studied it nor understand its precepts.

HA! Bring it on. You can start by using the Constitution to justify civil forfeiture. Go on, give it a shot. What is there in the Constitution that justifies your advocacy to simply confiscate personal property without a warrant or trial and to force the victims of the overt government theft to prove innocence. Go on, give it a shot.

It is fascinating how people justify throwing the "Constitution" around to support wickedness (chain people down to addictions of both substances and body chemistry) when that would be one of the last things on God's agenda in establishing it.

Holy freaking crap you're an offensive little git. There are so many things wrong with your statement and so many questions that I have raised that you ignored.

Let me know when you can justify civil forfeiture. Until then you have nothing of value to contribute.

If you can't get past the whole liar thing and admit you blew it there (bad paradigm that isn't in alignment with prophets and ultimately God)......then there is no point in proceeding.

You say - "I do not believe that it was a revelation from God"

President George Albert Smith specifically states in General Conference - "he spoke as the President of the Church and the representative of our Heavenly Father"

How do you reconcile that belief without saying that you think George Albert Smith is a liar?

[mingano]

President George Albert Smith specifically states in General Conference - "he spoke as the President of the Church and the representative of our Heavenly Father"

How do you reconcile that belief without saying that you think George Albert Smith is a liar?

I notice that you still refuse to answer the question about civil forfeiture... you are an intellectual coward, incapable of justifying your beliefs.

How do I reconcile these two statements? Simple. GAS described the messenger, not the source of the message. Was he the President of the Church at the time? Yes. Was the the messenger of Heavenly Father? Yes. Does that mean that every single word that is uttered by the man in that position is direct, pure and perfect revelation? No, and your stupidity is pressing my patience for implying that it is.

Now learn how to trim your posts (your signal to noise ration sucks) and start justifying your positions and answering questions or stop bothering me with your unsubstantiated whines about a Constitution that you are demonstrating a complete inability to comprehend or defend.

Last time I'm going to ask: use the Constitution to defend civil forfeiture. If you can't do it then you must admit that you are wrong. If you won't even try then it will appear as if you know that you are wrong.

[Original_Intent]

I think that stating that Prohibition was "the greatest financial or moral blessing" was hyperbole AT BEST.
The mouthpiece of the Lord was "humiliated" that Utah voted to repeal prohibition? I could understand sorrow for a wrong choice, but humiliation? Once again we come to the "fallible or infallible" debate. I won't say he was wrong, but I will say I haven't gotten confirmation nor do I expect to.

[Jason]

Further thoughts?

[Separatist]

The war on drugs is one of the biggest shams perpetrated on the American public.

Billions down the drain. Increased police state. Rise of the prison industrial complex. Treating non criminals as criminals. Harassment of citizens. The rise and strengthening of cartels etc.

Progressive do-goodism gone amuck.

[Jason]

The war on drugs is one of the biggest shams perpetrated on the American public.

Billions down the drain. Increased police state. Rise of the prison industrial complex. Treating non criminals as criminals. Harassment of citizens. The rise and strengthening of cartels etc.

Progressive do-goodism gone amuck.

Have you studied the effects of the legalization of marijuana? Colorado is prime testing ground right now....

By the time Elder Heber J. Grant became Church President in 1918, America was in a reform crusade called Prohibition. One year earlier, in December 1917, the U.S. Congress had approved an amendment to the Constitution making the production and sale of alcohol illegal; the states ratified the amendment in January 1919. President Grant, a Word of Wisdom advocate, called Prohibition “the greatest financial and moral blessing that has ever come to humanity.” 10 But Prohibition failed to end the alcohol trade, driving it underground instead.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/09/the-c ... h?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have never felt so humiliated in my life over anything as that the State of Utah voted for the repeal of Prohibition.

- President Heber J. Grant, Conference, Oct. 1934

In 1933, while the Church was in the process of assisting its needy, a constitutional amendment ending Prohibition was proposed. Ignoring President Grant’s objections, Utah cast the deciding vote to repeal Prohibition. An unhappy President Grant remarked that some members who sang “We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet” seemed to add the words, “provided he keeps his mouth shut politically.” 18

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/09/the-c ... h?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Church President Heber J. Grant was vocal in his disapproval of the policies of the thirty-second President, especially after the death of his pro-Roosevelt first counselor, Anthony B. Ivins, in September 1934. He would often become upset when discussing FDR, and in one heated discussions slammed his cane on the desk of Franklin J. Murdock, shattering the glass desktop in his anti-Roosevelt fury. It comes as no surprise, then, that in the election of 1936, President Grant openly endorsed the Republican candidate for President, Alf Landon. However, he pointed out that he was speaking for himself and not for the Church…As the 1936 election drew near, an unsigned, front-page editorial in the Church-owned Deseret News accused FDR of knowingly promoting unconstitutional laws and advocating Communism…Former First Presidency member Marion G. Romney, a staunch Democrat committed to vote for Roosevelt, was deeply torn…After fasting and three hours of prayer Marion concluded that the editorial was inspired and given through the Lord’s prophet. He then reversed his political loyalties and labored to dissuade his friends from voting for Roosevelt.”

In 1940, the General Authorities once again drafted a joint anti-Roosevelt statement. Yet despite all of the anti-Roosevelt sentiment against FDR, he carried Utah all four times he ran, increasing his total each election, a result that left President Grant “dumbfounded.” President Grant regarded the support for FDR as “one of the most serious conditions that has confronted me since I became President of the Church.”

http://www.millennialstar.org/heber-j-grant-and-fdr/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From this very stand he pleaded with us not to repeal the Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. He didn't speak as Heber J. Grant, the man, he spoke as the President of the Church and the representative of our Heavenly Father.

- George Albert Smith, Conference, Oct 1943

One of the saddest days in all of Utah's history was when the people, including the Latter-day Saints (for it could not have been done without them), rejected the counsel and urging of the Lord's prophet, Heber J. Grant, and repealed Prohibition long years ago--yet many of those voters had sung numerous times, "We Thank Thee, O God, For A Prophet."

- The Teachings of Spencer. W. Kimball

I go back to the words of Jehoshaphat: “Believe in the Lord your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.” (2 Chr. 20:20.)

There are many little things that test our willingness to accept the word of the prophets. Jesus said, “How often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” (Matt. 23:37.)

So it has been through the history of mankind, and so it is today. In our own communities, even here in Utah, we have experienced some of this. President Grant carried to his grave a deep sense of sorrow that, contrary to his counsel, the people of Utah cast the final vote, in 1934, that repealed the Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution.

I am grateful to say that we had a different experience some years ago when we joined with other citizens in a campaign to control the distribution of liquor. There is no question in my mind that great benefits have come as a result of the overwhelming response to direction from our prophet.

- President Gordan B. Hinckley, "Believe His Prophets", General Conference April 1992

[Separatist]

Have you studied the effects of prohibition? In my estimation the costs are much worse.

Help treat and rehab those who struggle, don't criminalize them.

Heber J was wrong.

btw- if you put your thinking cap on for a moment, this doesn't mean I encourage this usage, but that may be too much nuance for you.

[lundbaek]

Prohibition did give rise to a great deal of criminal activity in the United States. Heber J. Grant was the Prophet at the time he admonished the Church members to oppose the repeal of prohibition. I find it difficult to imagine what things would be like today if prohibition had remained in effect in stead of having been repealed. But that's not the only case of warnings and admonitions of latter-day prophets being rejected. Many Church members thought (and still think) President Benson was wrong in his admonitions to learn and abide by the principles of the US Constitution and safeguard the freedoms it was intended to provide. Many members ignored and still ignore the prophetic warnings to "eschew socialism". I can certainly see the results of that failure of LDS people. As for what the continued prohibition of strong drink might have accomplished and prevented I can only speculate.

[Separatist]

Libertarianism preaches Utopia [no it doesn't] but in application practices craft and deceit [no it doesn't]. The proponents ignore God and the moral or natural law aspect of society. [I don't ignore God. In fact there are many God believing libertarians.] They want to be free but practice wickedness to their hearts content. [Intellectual laziness.] To enjoy their stripper parties [right, because only libertarians go to strip clubs 8-| ] while ranting about individual liberties all while inherently knowing that money will dictate the resolution.

FYI - I'm not the one calling several prophets liars. [BS. Nobody called them liars. They are fallible men who speak their own opinions many times.]

This is simple really. All law is eventually enforced by coercion and violence, at the end of a gun if you will. I take that idea very seriously. In thinking about certain laws, I ask myself if I'm ok if violence/force and eventually death is used to enforce said law. And no, I'm not ok with these methods being used on someone who smokes a doobie or drinks a Bud.

"Teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."

Interestingly enough, the WoW went from non-commandment, to alleged commandment, to being enforced by the State by threat of violence. I call incorrect principle, and I don't care if Heber J said otherwise. It's an improper role of government. Heber J is free to preach against, persuade etc, but once he starts advocating state violence and enforcement, he's gone too far.

Heber J should have known this, especially having lived through the Gov't's push to end what they saw as barbarism, namely polygamy. It was part of the party platform of your man of God, Lincoln. I guess one man's vice is another man's virtue.

[Robert Sinclair]

Liberty as given of the law of God where the oppressed are set free, is done by a people of freewill, who distribute, homes and lands, food and raiment, unto all sufficient for their wants and needs that are just and righteous, with clean hands and pure hearts.

This is the highest form of liberty one can have, as was written of the people of 4th Nephi in verse 3 -----

"They were all made free." ♡

[Jason]

A sea of opinions...the only one that really matters is God's...and His chosen spokesmen when they speak for Him. Our job is to get in alignment that our souls may resonate with His spirit.

[Separatist]

And it's not drug laws.

[light-one]

God chooses freedom of choice every time. Every time. Every time.

Laws or even rules, regulations, statutes, or ordinances that prohibit freedom of choice are evil and from Satan. Every time. Every time. Every time.

[Separatist]

offended-lol.jpg (25.63 KiB) Viewed 980 times

Not only offended, but then seek to subjugate others under the heavy hand of Gov't (which is nothing but force - George Washington)

[Jason]

God chooses freedom of choice every time. Every time. Every time.

Laws or even rules, regulations, statutes, or ordinances that prohibit freedom of choice are evil and from Satan. Every time. Every time. Every time.

Long as your remember that He instituted laws and consequences to go with that freedom of choice....and government to officiate.

[Ezra]

Prohibition was not about alcohol. It was a bill pushed into place by Rockefeller to gain a monopoly on gasoline. Look it up.

Once that object was gained prohibition went away. At the time many people and farmers made there own fuel out of the crops they produced. Once the vehicles were all tuned to gasoline and the alcohol stills were gone for the most part and the only easy fuel option was gasoline or deisel. Which the Rockefellers controlled.

Too this day it's you have to jump through government hoops to produce your own Alcohol.

[Teancum]

Prohibition was not about alcohol. It was a bill pushed into place by Rockefeller to gain a monopoly on gasoline. Look it up.

Once that object was gained prohibition went away. At the time many people and farmers made there own fuel out of the crops they produced. Once the vehicles were all tuned to gasoline and the alcohol stills were gone for the most part and the only easy fuel option was gasoline or deisel. Which the Rockefellers controlled.

Too this day it's you have to jump through government hoops to produce your own Alcohol.

If any are interested, here is an alternative to alcohol. It can use any hydrocarbon from waste motor oil to wood chips to recycled plastics - as long as it is a hydrocarbon.

Please see Energeticforum.com:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable ... eaply.html

[davedan]

It is the jurisdiction of government to prosecute and rehabilitate those who cause harm to others such as distributing recreational drugs. Distrubution causes harm to the buyer. The recreational intent is directly connected to the form in which the substance is being sold. Abusing ourselves with psychoactive chemicals (natural or synthetic) exploits our natural brain-reward systems. Chemical abuse and causal sexual immorality contributes to greater poverty via decreased productivity (idle poor) and illegitimacy (broken families). Yes, recreational drinking beverage alcohol should not be illegal, but distribution should be.

Religion has the jurisdiction to discipline those who cause harm to themselves. The jurisdiction of the Church is welfare and virtue (James 1:27). Government can tax and then write and distribute checks but they cannot inspire personal virtue at the root cause of poverty like religion can. Only religion can discipline, rehabilitate, and inspire personal virtue. Only religion can end poverty and realize greater social justice.

Greater private immorality leads to increasing public poverty and greater social injustice. In the setting of social inequality, corrupt and opportunistic individuals swoop in to seize government power promising greater social equality in exchange for our freedom. In reality, government welfare enables and exploits the poor until there is an absolute consolidation of power and all our freedoms and liberties have been wrested away.


Government: prosecutes those who cause harm to others
Religion: disciplines those who cause harm to themselves

Taking psychoactive chemicals exploits the natural brain-reward system that is ment to reward productive behavior. How productive are you going to be if you can simulate a "high" while sitting on the couch. Eating is productive, reproducing is productive, exercizing is productive, achieving a goal is productive. Taking psychoactive chemicals is cheating yourself. Masterbation, pornography, casual sex is cheating yourself. You didn't really earn the reward. If you say you are just rewarding yourself after a hard day work, because your job in and of itself is not rewarding, you need to get a new job that is rewarding.

Abusing yourself should not be illegal, but distributing products that are intented to be used for people to abuse themselves should be illegal (ie drugs, alcohol, prostitution, pornography, etc.)


Without rules, we would only know to do whatever our stomach said to do. There would be no choice, but only to react to appetites and fear. Rules, give us a choice. My stomach says to do this, but I choose to do the other. We would have no idea to act contrary to our appetities and fears if the commandments were not revealed to us by God. Since, not everyone can get whatever they want. Then the alpha human would control other the others through a system of fear, control, bribes, and manipulation (pyramid system). God's system operates out of love. Satan's system is fear-based.

[Ezra]

Prohibition was not about alcohol. It was a bill pushed into place by Rockefeller to gain a monopoly on gasoline. Look it up.

Once that object was gained prohibition went away. At the time many people and farmers made there own fuel out of the crops they produced. Once the vehicles were all tuned to gasoline and the alcohol stills were gone for the most part and the only easy fuel option was gasoline or deisel. Which the Rockefellers controlled.

Too this day it's you have to jump through government hoops to produce your own Alcohol.

If any are interested, here is an alternative to alcohol. It can use any hydrocarbon from waste motor oil to wood chips to recycled plastics - as long as it is a hydrocarbon.

Please see Energeticforum.com:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable ... eaply.html

Used motor oil works great for deisel by itself. Same with used transmission fluid

[Jason]

Prohibition was not about alcohol. It was a bill pushed into place by Rockefeller to gain a monopoly on gasoline. Look it up.

Once that object was gained prohibition went away. At the time many people and farmers made there own fuel out of the crops they produced. Once the vehicles were all tuned to gasoline and the alcohol stills were gone for the most part and the only easy fuel option was gasoline or deisel. Which the Rockefellers controlled.

Too this day it's you have to jump through government hoops to produce your own Alcohol.

You talk about the control by private money then blame government.

I'll stick with the prophets on prohibition.