Liberty

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Liberty. What is it and how do we define it? Especially with respect to law?

Is liberty defined as allowance and tolerance for addictive substances? We've already been given our agency and everyone can choose for themselves no matter what men legally try to constrain themselves to (or not constrain themselves to). We can choose to obey or disobey those laws just the same as the ones God has given us. So what is real liberty and real freedom? Is it tied to law? God's law? Man's law? If so then how so?

[captainFreedomcaptain of 10]

Jefferson: "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

Rothbard: "If liberty should be the highest political end, then what is the grounding for that goal? It should be clear from this work that, first and foremost, liberty is a moral principle, grounded in the nature of man. In particular, it is a principle of justice, of the abolition of aggressive violence in the affairs of men."

Quesnay: "Every man has a natural right to the free exercise of his faculties provided he does not employ them to the injury of others. This right to liberty implies as a corollary the right to property," and the only function of the government is to defend that right.

[Tribunalcaptain of 1,000]

Liberty is what you have after government regulation.

Freedom is what you have in absence of government regulation.

[alexoyarzuncaptain of 10]

You are right. We are all free to choose. But, true freedom comes with choosing to align ourselves with the spirit of our creator - Love. This is exactly why Jesus never cared about politics or seeking some type of position of power within government or drafting some type of constitution. Most people within the church and within this forum still believe that government can provide freedom or liberty. This is the big lie. Freedom is an internal state of being that is free no matter what is happening on the outside; no matter what country you are in, no matter who is persecuting you, etc. Governments have always tried to brainwash the masses to believe that they can give the people what they need - Freedom. But, only through the spirit of Christ can you truly be free... in China, Russia, India, or the USofA; This is why many people who have had life-altering moments, have been in circumstances that have been unbearable (like concentration camps), but have still managed to choose to love. It is this choice that grants freedom, no matter the circumstances, because then no matter what life throws at you, no matter what the government throws at you, no matter what others throw at you, you are stubbornly unchanging and free within the grace of the Lord. Don't believe that freedom can be found in a constitution or in a political agenda. All of these agendas are always backed by violence, and without violence, they fail. Don't believe that freedom can be given to you by anyone other than yourself. In order to be free, you must change the inside, not the outside. If you are free inside, then you are free. This is the good news. This is the good news that liberated (and continues to liberate) the poor and the captive and the downtrodden around the world. Make the switch. Turn the key. Freedom is right here.

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Jefferson: "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

Rothbard: "If liberty should be the highest political end, then what is the grounding for that goal? It should be clear from this work that, first and foremost, liberty is a moral principle, grounded in the nature of man. In particular, it is a principle of justice, of the abolition of aggressive violence in the affairs of men."

Quesnay: "Every man has a natural right to the free exercise of his faculties provided he does not employ them to the injury of others. This right to liberty implies as a corollary the right to property," and the only function of the government is to defend that right.

Sorry Rothbard and liberty don't go together....especially when claiming it is grounded in the nature of man (natural man is an enemy to God).

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Liberty is what you have after government regulation.

Freedom is what you have in absence of government regulation.

Can you have freedom while under the control of another?

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

You are right. We are all free to choose. But, true freedom comes with choosing to align ourselves with the spirit of our creator - Love. This is exactly why Jesus never cared about politics or seeking some type of position of power within government or drafting some type of constitution. Most people within the church and within this forum still believe that government can provide freedom or liberty. This is the big lie. Freedom is an internal state of being that is free no matter what is happening on the outside; no matter what country you are in, no matter who is persecuting you, etc. Governments have always tried to brainwash the masses to believe that they can give the people what they need - Freedom. But, only through the spirit of Christ can you truly be free... in China, Russia, India, or the USofA; This is why many people who have had life-altering moments, have been in circumstances that have been unbearable (like concentration camps), but have still managed to choose to love. It is this choice that grants freedom, no matter the circumstances, because then no matter what life throws at you, no matter what the government throws at you, no matter what others throw at you, you are stubbornly unchanging and free within the grace of the Lord. Don't believe that freedom can be found in a constitution or in a political agenda. All of these agendas are always backed by violence, and without violence, they fail. Don't believe that freedom can be given to you by anyone other than yourself. In order to be free, you must change the inside, not the outside. If you are free inside, then you are free. This is the good news. This is the good news that liberated (and continues to liberate) the poor and the captive and the downtrodden around the world. Make the switch. Turn the key. Freedom is right here.

Isn't government just a tool....which can either be used for freedom/liberty....OR....captivity and physical/spiritual death?

Can love alone carry the day? Any constraints on love? What about law and obedience to law? If ye love me - keep my commandments. Isn't it obedience to the law that makes us free? Doesn't God operate within the constraints of universal law? With that law He knows a given input will create a certain output? If this course of action is taken then this will be the result? If you are not obedient to the law and become a law unto yourself (wrapped up in loving yourself) then can you still be free inside (or outside)?

Government can make us free IF man's laws are in compliance with God's laws.

[alexoyarzuncaptain of 10]

You are right. We are all free to choose. But, true freedom comes with choosing to align ourselves with the spirit of our creator - Love. This is exactly why Jesus never cared about politics or seeking some type of position of power within government or drafting some type of constitution. Most people within the church and within this forum still believe that government can provide freedom or liberty. This is the big lie. Freedom is an internal state of being that is free no matter what is happening on the outside; no matter what country you are in, no matter who is persecuting you, etc. Governments have always tried to brainwash the masses to believe that they can give the people what they need - Freedom. But, only through the spirit of Christ can you truly be free... in China, Russia, India, or the USofA; This is why many people who have had life-altering moments, have been in circumstances that have been unbearable (like concentration camps), but have still managed to choose to love. It is this choice that grants freedom, no matter the circumstances, because then no matter what life throws at you, no matter what the government throws at you, no matter what others throw at you, you are stubbornly unchanging and free within the grace of the Lord. Don't believe that freedom can be found in a constitution or in a political agenda. All of these agendas are always backed by violence, and without violence, they fail. Don't believe that freedom can be given to you by anyone other than yourself. In order to be free, you must change the inside, not the outside. If you are free inside, then you are free. This is the good news. This is the good news that liberated (and continues to liberate) the poor and the captive and the downtrodden around the world. Make the switch. Turn the key. Freedom is right here.

Isn't government just a tool....which can either be used for freedom/liberty....OR....captivity and physical/spiritual death?

Can love alone carry the day? Any constraints on love? What about law and obedience to law? If ye love me - keep my commandments. Isn't it obedience to the law that makes us free? Doesn't God operate within the constraints of universal law? With that law He knows a given input will create a certain output? If this course of action is taken then this will be the result? If you are not obedient to the law and become a law unto yourself (wrapped up in loving yourself) then can you still be free inside (or outside)?

Government can make us free IF man's laws are in compliance with God's laws.

Good one Legion... If ye love me - keep my commandments... and what is the commandment? love God, love neighbor... as i have loved you, love one another... my new commandment, love one another.... absolutely, love alone can carry the day. The only constraint on love is love itself... the alpha and the omega... God doesn't operate within universal law, God is the creator of universal law, God is universal law which is love. Now, you present an important point, what is love? how do you love? Once you embark on this journey, the questions never stop because there is so much we don't know about love, but we keep on learning a little more every day. And by definition, love is concerned about the well being of the other, as opposed to the self... the giving of the self for the benefit of the other, because ultimately the other is the self, in the grand scheme of things, we are all one within God.

In regard to government, because this is where you are stumped: Government is nothing but a reflection of the culture of the time. If culture is selfish and self-centered, then government leaders will be as well; why would you expect anything more from them? They are just looking out for their best interest and that of their families (getting re-elected, having a long political career). Isn't this what most people in our culture do anyway? Why do you put politicians at a higher standard than the normal person on the street. Culture creates governments and their leaders. This is why we keep on changing the people in government, but the result is the same. Changing oranges with oranges. So, the only way to change government is to change culture, and how do you change culture? First people must change, and then governments will slowly change. There are no short-cuts, unfortunately. Of course we try to force change in government through violent revolution, but the result will be the same... oranges with oranges. So, we do our best to follow the one and only law. This is the way and only way - "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

You are right. We are all free to choose. But, true freedom comes with choosing to align ourselves with the spirit of our creator - Love. This is exactly why Jesus never cared about politics or seeking some type of position of power within government or drafting some type of constitution. Most people within the church and within this forum still believe that government can provide freedom or liberty. This is the big lie. Freedom is an internal state of being that is free no matter what is happening on the outside; no matter what country you are in, no matter who is persecuting you, etc. Governments have always tried to brainwash the masses to believe that they can give the people what they need - Freedom. But, only through the spirit of Christ can you truly be free... in China, Russia, India, or the USofA; This is why many people who have had life-altering moments, have been in circumstances that have been unbearable (like concentration camps), but have still managed to choose to love. It is this choice that grants freedom, no matter the circumstances, because then no matter what life throws at you, no matter what the government throws at you, no matter what others throw at you, you are stubbornly unchanging and free within the grace of the Lord. Don't believe that freedom can be found in a constitution or in a political agenda. All of these agendas are always backed by violence, and without violence, they fail. Don't believe that freedom can be given to you by anyone other than yourself. In order to be free, you must change the inside, not the outside. If you are free inside, then you are free. This is the good news. This is the good news that liberated (and continues to liberate) the poor and the captive and the downtrodden around the world. Make the switch. Turn the key. Freedom is right here.

Isn't government just a tool....which can either be used for freedom/liberty....OR....captivity and physical/spiritual death?

Can love alone carry the day? Any constraints on love? What about law and obedience to law? If ye love me - keep my commandments. Isn't it obedience to the law that makes us free? Doesn't God operate within the constraints of universal law? With that law He knows a given input will create a certain output? If this course of action is taken then this will be the result? If you are not obedient to the law and become a law unto yourself (wrapped up in loving yourself) then can you still be free inside (or outside)?

Government can make us free IF man's laws are in compliance with God's laws.

Good one Legion... If ye love me - keep my commandments... and what is the commandment? love God, love neighbor... as i have loved you, love one another... my new commandment, love one another.... absolutely, love alone can carry the day. The only constraint on love is love itself... the alpha and the omega... God doesn't operate within universal law, God is the creator of universal law, God is universal law which is love. Now, you present an important point, what is love? how do you love? Once you embark on this journey, the questions never stop because there is so much we don't know about love, but we keep on learning a little more every day. And by definition, love is concerned about the well being of the other, as opposed to the self... the giving of the self for the benefit of the other, because ultimately the other is the self, in the grand scheme of things, we are all one within God.

In regard to government, because this is where you are stumped: Government is nothing but a reflection of the culture of the time. If culture is selfish and self-centered, then government leaders will be as well; why would you expect anything more from them? They are just looking out for their best interest and that of their families (getting re-elected, having a long political career). Isn't this what most people in our culture do anyway? Why do you put politicians at a higher standard than the normal person on the street. Culture creates governments and their leaders. This is why we keep on changing the people in government, but the result is the same. Changing oranges with oranges. So, the only way to change government is to change culture, and how do you change culture? First people must change, and then governments will slowly change. There are no short-cuts, unfortunately. Of course we try to force change in government through violent revolution, but the result will be the same... oranges with oranges. So, we do our best to follow the one and only law. This is the way and only way - "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"

I have been impressed to speak about God’s love and God’s commandments. My message is that God’s universal and perfect love is shown in all the blessings of His gospel plan, including the fact that His choicest blessings are reserved for those who obey His laws. 1 These are eternal principles that should guide parents in their love and teaching of their children.

We read again and again in the Bible and in modern scriptures of God’s anger with the wicked 3 and of His acting in His wrath 4 against those who violate His laws. How are anger and wrath evidence of His love? Joseph Smith taught that God “institute[d] laws whereby [the spirits that He would send into the world] could have a privilege to advance like himself.” 5 God’s love is so perfect that He lovingly requires us to obey His commandments because He knows that only through obedience to His laws can we become perfect, as He is. For this reason, God’s anger and His wrath are not a contradiction of His love but an evidence of His love. Every parent knows that you can love a child totally and completely while still being creatively angry and disappointed at that child’s self-defeating behavior.

The love of God is so universal that His perfect plan bestows many gifts on all of His children, even those who disobey His laws. Mortality is one such gift, bestowed on all who qualified in the War in Heaven. 6 Another unconditional gift is the universal resurrection: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). Many other mortal gifts are not tied to our personal obedience to law. As Jesus taught, our Heavenly Father “maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust” (Matthew 5:45).

The key teaching is from modern revelation:

“There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

“And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated” (D&C 130:20–21).

This great principle helps us understand the why of many things, like justice and mercy balanced by the Atonement. It also explains why God will not forestall the exercise of agency by His children. Agency—our power to choose—is fundamental to the gospel plan that brings us to earth. God does not intervene to forestall the consequences of some persons’ choices in order to protect the well-being of other persons—even when they kill, injure, or oppress one another—for this would destroy His plan for our eternal progress. 8 He will bless us to endure the consequences of others’ choices, but He will not prevent those choices. 9

If a person understands the teachings of Jesus, he or she cannot reasonably conclude that our loving Heavenly Father or His divine Son believes that Their love supersedes Their commandments.

The effect of God’s commandments and laws is not changed to accommodate popular behavior or desires. If anyone thinks that godly or parental love for an individual grants the loved one license to disobey the law, he or she does not understand either love or law. The Lord declared: “That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still” (D&C 88:35).

We read in modern revelation, “All kingdoms have a law given” (D&C 88:36). For example:

“He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

“And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

“And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory” (D&C 88:22–24).

In other words, the kingdom of glory to which the Final Judgment assigns us is not determined by love but by the law that God has invoked in His plan to qualify us for eternal life, “the greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 14:7).

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... w?lang=eng

He further explained that for these opposites or alternatives to exist, there must be law. Law provides us the options. It is by the operation of laws that things happen. By using or obeying a law, one can bring about a particular result—and by disobedience, the opposite result. Without law there could be no God, for He would be powerless to cause anything to happen (see 2 Nephi 2:13). Without law, neither He nor we would be able to predict or choose a particular outcome by a given action. Our existence and the creation around us are convincing evidence that God, the Creator, exists and that our mortal world consists of “both things to act and things to be acted upon” (2 Nephi 2:14)—or, in other words, choices.

Freedom of choice is the freedom to obey or disobey existing laws—not the freedom to alter their consequences. Law, as mentioned earlier, exists as a foundational element of moral agency with fixed outcomes that do not vary according to our opinions or preferences. Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles observed, “We are responsible to use our agency in a world of choices. It will not do to pretend that our agency has been taken away when we are not free to exercise it without unwelcome consequences.”

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2009/06/moral-agency?lang=eng

As the great Lawgiver, He gave laws and commandments for the benefit of all our Heavenly Father’s children. Indeed, His law fulfilled all previous covenants with the house of Israel. Said He:

“Behold, I am the law, and the light. Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life.” (3 Ne. 15:9.)

His law required all mankind, regardless of station in life, to repent and be baptized in His name and receive the Holy Ghost as the sanctifying power to cleanse themselves from sin. Compliance with these laws and ordinances will enable each individual to stand guiltless before Him at the day of judgment. Those who so comply are likened to one who builds his house on a firm foundation—so that even “the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.” (3 Ne. 11:39.)

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1990/06/jesus ... r?lang=eng

Yes I do agree that government is a reflection of the people and the people must change before the government will change. Thus 1st priority is crying repentance - example as well as the preaching that follows.

[alexoyarzuncaptain of 10]

Nice chatting with you Legion... the very best... some great ideas

[tevye08Hi, I'm new.]

Liberty and Freedom
By William J. Dell – 23 November 2011
Amore Dei, Familiae, Patriae ducit !
http://www.freedom-fightersforum.org/opines/forum-2011/liberty-and-freedom/

In a previous article I wrote, “To be an American is to have the Light of Liberty radiating within your soul because the Fire of Freedom is burning fearlessly and determinedly [fiercely] in your heart not just for yourself but for all men everywhere.” Some have suggested that Liberty and Freedom are synonymous. This seems to be true when using a current dictionary, but during our Founding Fathers era I do not believe this was so.

It might be of interest to know that the word Liberty is used three time in the Constitution, once each in the Preamble, the Fifth Amendment and the Fourteenth Amendment. Each of these references refer to our unalienable right from God to Liberty. The word Freedom appears but once in the First Amendment. This reference is associated with our freedom of religion, speech, press and right to assembly.

In the following treatise, I use Noah Webster’s 1828 Dictionary to define the terms “Liberty” and “Freedom” because his listed definitions would be much closer to the understanding of our Founding Fathers. The semantics of a word often changes as time rolls on from year to year. Often it is therefore important to return to the past to understand what was being written in our founding documents. I believe it is very important for We the People, individually and as a nation, to understand the difference between Liberty and Freedom if we are to preserve the VISION of our Founding Fathers and the Constitutional Republic they gave us.

In the Declaration of Independence our Founding Fathers wrote, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” A “self-evident” truth according to Noah Webster’s 1828 Dictionary is one which is evident without proof or reasoning or that produces certainty or clear conviction upon a bare presentation to the mind. To be “endowed” with an “unalienable right” is to be indued, clothed or invested with a “right” that may not be transferred. Therefore, the “self-evident” Liberty mentioned in the Declaration of Independence is an endowment or gift to “all men” from their Creator [Almighty God] that may NOT be transferred. Further because our Liberty comes from God, it is self-evident that no man has the power or right to abridge another man’s God-given right to Liberty without the permission of that man.

Noah Webster defined Liberty as follows:

Freedom from restraint, in a general sense, and applicable to the body, or to the will or mind. The body is at liberty, when not confined; the will or mind is at liberty, when not checked or controlled. A man enjoys liberty, when no physical force operates to restrain his actions or volitions.

He further defined what he called Natural Liberty as:

Consists in the power of acting as one thinks fit, without any restraint or control, except from the laws of nature. It is the state of exemption from the control of others, and from positive laws and the institutions of social life. This liberty is abridged by the establishment of government.

I believe that from these two definitions of “Liberty” we can understand what the Founding Fathers considered as man’s unalienable right of Liberty mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.

You must be absolutely free to exercise your God given unalienable right of Liberty. When men mutually come together to form a “civil society” [defined as a community, state or nation] for the benefit of all, as Noah Webster indicated, they voluntarily surrender a portion of their “Natural Liberty” which they received as a gift from God. They agree that for the benefit of the civil society that they will be considerate of the “liberty” of others. Noah Webster called this self-imposed restriction on our unalienable right of Liberty – Civil Liberty. He defined Civil Liberty as:

The liberty of men in a state of society, or natural liberty, so far only abridged and restrained, as is necessary and expedient for the safety and interest of the society, state or nation. A restraint of natural liberty, not necessary or expedient for the public, is tyranny or oppression. Civil Liberty is an exemption from the arbitrary will of others, which exemption is secured by established laws, which restrain every man from injuring or controlling another. Hence the restraints of law are essential to civil liberty.

Once a civil society establishes “Civil Liberty” through law, as in the case of We the People’s grant of power to the federal government through our U.S. Constitution, Freedom is born! We the People, as individuals, continue to retain our unalienable right to Liberty from God, but We the People, collectively, agree to “limit” our individual exercise of our God given Liberty for the good of the nation.

The Freedoms defined by We the People through our Constitution establishes two sets of limits. First, for the federal government, the Constitution limits by written law what they may do and by the Bill of Rights to what they may NOT do. Second, for We the People, as individuals, the Constitution defines the self-imposed limits on our God-given individual unalienable right to Liberty within our civil society, our Constitutional Republic and informs the federal government through the Tenth Amendment that “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, non prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” [Emphasis added.]

We, as individuals, may then exercise our Freedom(s) provided we do not exceed the limits We the People have established by our civil society’s laws, our Constitution. As Noah Webster says in his definition of Freedom, we are in a “state of exemption from the power or control of another” or the civil society as long as we are in compliance with the constitutional laws of the civil society in which we choose to live, our Constitutional Republic.

So it can be seen that Liberty is greater than Freedom because Liberty is an unalienable right – a gift from God. Freedom is established by man through law. Therefore, Freedom is a subset of our unalienable right to Liberty.

Noah Webster further stated, “A restraint of natural liberty, not necessary or expedient for the public, is tyranny or oppression.” When the government of our Constitutional Republic exceeds the mandate of We the People contained in the Constitution, it has usurped, contrary to the Tenth Amendment, power(s) not granted. Such usurpation, by necessity, unlawfully abridges the God given right of Liberty granted to We the People, individually, beyond what was granted or intended and further restricts our individual and collective Freedom(s). By definition, this is TYRANNY!

It was John Pilpot Curran who stated, “It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights [Freedoms] become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God has given Liberty to man is eternal vigilance.” We the People cannot have an attitude of both vigilance and apathy as they are mutually exclusive of each other. The Freedom to exercise your God given Liberty, within the constraints of a civil society – our Constitutional Republic, is something each citizen has to be vigilant about and sometimes fight for.

You fight for your unalienable right of Liberty with Freedom being the result within your civil society if you are victorious. If you cease to be vigilant and lose your fight, you are brought into a condition of servitude or slavery by a tyrant [dictator or king] or by a tyrannical government [an oligarchy]. A measure of freedom may then be granted to you even under these conditions of servitude or slavery, but your Liberty as a servant or slave remains unabridged because it is a gift from God to ALL men. You are only prohibited from exercising your God given Liberty beyond the limits “granted” by your oppressor(s).

So to be an American, one must understand that Liberty is a gift of God and that with this understanding we are required to “proclaim Liberty throughout all the land [world] unto all the inhabitants thereof.” [Leviticus 25:10b] As we do this the Light of Liberty will radiate within our soul. Further, because of our divinely inspired Constitution and the establishment of our Constitutional Republic by We the People, we should have the Fire of Freedom burning in our hearts to guard against our elected representatives [politicians] penchant for political power. The truth of Lord Acton’s statement, “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely” is certainly true of politicians. Rare it is to find within our Constitutional Republic, or any other civil society, Statesmen of the caliber of Washington, Jefferson, Madison and Lincoln. Statesmen who have NO desire to usurp power(s) not granted in our Constitution thereby abridging We the People’s Freedom(s) beyond the Constitutional mandate granted to them.

This writer believes that “Statesmen” and “Politicians,” elected or unelected, are on opposite ends of the continuum of “Public Service.” Statesmen are on the right side of Public Service supporting Liberty and Freedom, but Politicians are on the left side of Public Service supporting servitude and slavery. As it says in Ecclesiastes 10:2, “A wise man’s [Statesman’s] heart is at his right hand; but a fool’s [Politician’s] heart at his left.”

In our Constitutional Republic, the continuum of “Public Service” is defined and limited by the mandate from We the People as set forth in the U. S. Constitution. Therefore the principal determination to be made in deciding if someone is acting as a Statesman or a Politician is: Does his or her actions serve the long-term best interests of our Constitutional Republic, our civil society, by preserving the citizens unalienable rights from God to Life, Liberty and Property or does his or her actions erode and destroy the Freedom(s) mandated by We the People as defined in our Constitution thereby moving We the People toward political and/or economic servitude and slavery in a Welfare Socialist State? More simply stated, does his or her actions support self-reliance and self-determination or does his or her action make one dependent upon the state? Truly, “When the righteous [Statesmen] are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked [Politicians] beareth rule, the people mourn.” [Proverbs 29:2]

In this our Constitutional Republic, our civil society, We the People must always remember that Liberty is a gift from God and that our Freedoms were established by our Founding Fathers through Judeo-Christian principles written into our Constitution, a Constitution that established a “government of the people, by the people, for the people.” I pray that those principles and Freedoms “shall not perish from the earth.”

May God Bless and Save the United States of America.
Our Constitutional Republic !

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Nice chatting with you Legion... the very best... some great ideas

Likewise!!!

[Tribunalcaptain of 1,000]

Liberty is what you have after government regulation.

Freedom is what you have in absence of government regulation.

Can you have freedom while under the control of another?

No. You can't.

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Liberty is what you have after government regulation.

Freedom is what you have in absence of government regulation.

Can you have freedom while under the control of another?

No. You can't.

Is the ultimate taker of freedom/liberty, and also the destroyer of agency (seeking complete mastery and control over you), satan?

If so, then is not the distinction between what creates freedom/liberty and what destroys freedom/liberty dependent upon whether it is of God or of satan?

Isn't government just a tool to be wielded by either side? Righteous vs. wicked king? Voice of the majority either being wicked or righteous?

And thus associated and respective laws and regulations? If the regulations are in alignment with God's commandments (such as King Benjamin and King Mosiah making the Laws of Moses also the laws of the land) then aren't they helping create freedom and liberty?

Is it "the government" or is it who is controlling the government? And for what purpose?

[moonwhimcaptain of 1,000]

Is the ultimate taker of freedom/liberty, and also the destroyer of agency (seeking complete mastery and control over you), satan?

If so, then is not the distinction between what creates freedom/liberty and what destroys freedom/liberty dependent upon whether it is of God or of satan?

Isn't government just a tool to be wielded by either side? Righteous vs. wicked king? Voice of the majority either being wicked or righteous?

And thus associated and respective laws and regulations? If the regulations are in alignment with God's commandments (such as King Benjamin and King Mosiah making the Laws of Moses also the laws of the land) then aren't they helping create freedom and liberty?

Is it "the government" or is it who is controlling the government? And for what purpose?

"We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion." (D&C 121:39)

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Is the ultimate taker of freedom/liberty, and also the destroyer of agency (seeking complete mastery and control over you), satan?

If so, then is not the distinction between what creates freedom/liberty and what destroys freedom/liberty dependent upon whether it is of God or of satan?

Isn't government just a tool to be wielded by either side? Righteous vs. wicked king? Voice of the majority either being wicked or righteous?

And thus associated and respective laws and regulations? If the regulations are in alignment with God's commandments (such as King Benjamin and King Mosiah making the Laws of Moses also the laws of the land) then aren't they helping create freedom and liberty?

Is it "the government" or is it who is controlling the government? And for what purpose?

"We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion." (D&C 121:39)

What is your point?

[moonwhimcaptain of 1,000]

Is the ultimate taker of freedom/liberty, and also the destroyer of agency (seeking complete mastery and control over you), satan?

If so, then is not the distinction between what creates freedom/liberty and what destroys freedom/liberty dependent upon whether it is of God or of satan?

Isn't government just a tool to be wielded by either side? Righteous vs. wicked king? Voice of the majority either being wicked or righteous?

And thus associated and respective laws and regulations? If the regulations are in alignment with God's commandments (such as King Benjamin and King Mosiah making the Laws of Moses also the laws of the land) then aren't they helping create freedom and liberty?

Is it "the government" or is it who is controlling the government? And for what purpose?

"We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion." (D&C 121:39)

What is your point?

The importance of having government limited so that the above disposition will be stifled.

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Is the ultimate taker of freedom/liberty, and also the destroyer of agency (seeking complete mastery and control over you), satan?

If so, then is not the distinction between what creates freedom/liberty and what destroys freedom/liberty dependent upon whether it is of God or of satan?

Isn't government just a tool to be wielded by either side? Righteous vs. wicked king? Voice of the majority either being wicked or righteous?

And thus associated and respective laws and regulations? If the regulations are in alignment with God's commandments (such as King Benjamin and King Mosiah making the Laws of Moses also the laws of the land) then aren't they helping create freedom and liberty?

Is it "the government" or is it who is controlling the government? And for what purpose?

"We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion." (D&C 121:39)

What is your point?

The importance of having government limited so that the above disposition will be stifled.

Okay. How should it be limited? Or what does it mean to limit "government"? Or what is your idea of "limited government"?

How do those thoughts fit into the liberty/freedom scenario described above? Or is the take above off base and they shouldn't fit?

[Tribunalcaptain of 1,000]

Is the ultimate taker of freedom/liberty, and also the destroyer of agency (seeking complete mastery and control over you), satan?

Ultimately I would say 'yes'.

If so, then is not the distinction between what creates freedom/liberty and what destroys freedom/liberty dependent upon whether it is of God or of satan?

I believe so. I also believe it is a very thin line.

Isn't government just a tool to be wielded by either side? Righteous vs. wicked king? Voice of the majority either being wicked or righteous?

I believe Government is a tool used by both sides, and I believe Government is ordained by God for the benefit of the people.

And thus associated and respective laws and regulations? If the regulations are in alignment with God's commandments (such as King Benjamin and King Mosiah making the Laws of Moses also the laws of the land) then aren't they helping create freedom and liberty?

People can only delegate powers to Government that they possess so if they are granting powers that violating people then Government is a tool of Satan and fulfills his agenda. If the people are delegating powers that they possess, and nothing more, then it is a tool of Christ and fulfills His agenda.

Is it "the government" or is it who is controlling the government? And for what purpose?

Again, Government is made up of people who are accountable for their actions, whether they are establishing law, or administering the law.

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Is the ultimate taker of freedom/liberty, and also the destroyer of agency (seeking complete mastery and control over you), satan?

Ultimately I would say 'yes'.

If so, then is not the distinction between what creates freedom/liberty and what destroys freedom/liberty dependent upon whether it is of God or of satan?

I believe so. I also believe it is a very thin line.

Isn't government just a tool to be wielded by either side? Righteous vs. wicked king? Voice of the majority either being wicked or righteous?

I believe Government is a tool used by both sides, and I believe Government is ordained by God for the benefit of the people.

And thus associated and respective laws and regulations? If the regulations are in alignment with God's commandments (such as King Benjamin and King Mosiah making the Laws of Moses also the laws of the land) then aren't they helping create freedom and liberty?

People can only delegate powers to Government that they possess so if they are granting powers that violating people then Government is a tool of Satan and fulfills his agenda. If the people are delegating powers that they possess, and nothing more, then it is a tool of Christ and fulfills His agenda.

Is it "the government" or is it who is controlling the government? And for what purpose?

Again, Government is made up of people who are accountable for their actions, whether they are establishing law, or administering the law.

You bring up some interesting thoughts. What powers do people possess that they can delegate to government? I'm thinking again back to the Captain Moroni and Pahoran situation where we have a majority rule (voice of the people) against a minority of whom some of which lost their heads as a result. The prohibition. Proposition 8. And other items along that train of thought where we see the church or those have been called righteous men taking a stand that some assume violates the rights of others.

Also what is the agenda of Christ and how do governments fit into it?

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

Okay. How should it be limited? Or what does it mean to limit "government"? Or what is your idea of "limited government"?

We used to have a limited government - the US Constitution was set up explicitly and openly to limit government, to apply constraints and declare that THESE are the powers of government and no further. It was unfortunate that the Bill of Rights were needed as they speak volumes of the inability of men in power to limit themselves - I am glad they are there, but in a perfect world they would have been unnecessary.

Higher up in this thread you reference the tolerance of various substances. Unfortunately you err in failing to distinguish between government tolerance and personal tolerance. Evil is the man who seeks to constrain the will of others, not through kindness and persuasion but through the violence of force, imposed upon the citizenry by a government immune to the will of the common man. When the agents of force are tasked to decide between personal gain through an unsheathed sword and the dullness of watching with scabbard sealed the choice is clearly against those deserving of protection.

The influence of a loving family and a gentle friend, blazing in example glorious and true is the force rooted in the pure love of God. It is only through the longsuffering coax, meek and gentle that a truly free nation can blossom. To compel on threat of death to comply or shed blood is not the way of God and will lead only to a struggle, violent and prolonged as each seeks to right perceived wrongs.

Our nation has lost liberty - we are now a nation of aspiring fascists, with local governments basking in martial retribution against even the smallest of slights. A small child with poor impulse control? The shackles go on. A man is challenged by confusion caused by a glycemic problem? Tazing him to death is deemed appropriate by those who are granted immunity from reason and responsibility.

We cannot be free in a land where a detective can take an autistic boy into a room and lie about having video of him raping his younger sister, even more mentally challenged, and demand that he either testify that his innocent father had raped the young girl or he would go to prison himself. Said detective was held personally immune for his misdeeds, with the burden of the settlement to be borne by the taxpayers he was sword to protect.

[Tribunalcaptain of 1,000]

You bring up some interesting thoughts. What powers do people possess that they can delegate to government? I'm thinking again back to the Captain Moroni and Pahoran situation where we have a majority rule (voice of the people) against a minority of whom some of which lost their heads as a result. The prohibition. Proposition 8. And other items along that train of thought where we see the church or those have been called righteous men taking a stand that some assume violates the rights of others.

Also what is the agenda of Christ and how do governments fit into it?

The people have the power to exercise Rights and engage in Contracts. The people can form a Contract with those who serve in government and delegate to them the Right to self-defense and the defense of others. The most basic example of this is the Sheriff Principle. A community of people don't want to stand on their land all day and defend their property, so they pool their resources and hire a sheriff to defend them while they go about their lives. This one person makes a living defending those around him/her and mediates conflicts. This is the birth of government.

I believe that government is instituted by God for the benefit of man. Government is a tool that can be used either righteously, like in the Sheriff Principle, or un-righteously, like in socialism and other forms of tyranny.

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Okay. How should it be limited? Or what does it mean to limit "government"? Or what is your idea of "limited government"?

We used to have a limited government - the US Constitution was set up explicitly and openly to limit government, to apply constraints and declare that THESE are the powers of government and no further. It was unfortunate that the Bill of Rights were needed as they speak volumes of the inability of men in power to limit themselves - I am glad they are there, but in a perfect world they would have been unnecessary.

Higher up in this thread you reference the tolerance of various substances. Unfortunately you err in failing to distinguish between government tolerance and personal tolerance. Evil is the man who seeks to constrain the will of others, not through kindness and persuasion but through the violence of force, imposed upon the citizenry by a government immune to the will of the common man. When the agents of force are tasked to decide between personal gain through an unsheathed sword and the dullness of watching with scabbard sealed the choice is clearly against those deserving of protection.

The influence of a loving family and a gentle friend, blazing in example glorious and true is the force rooted in the pure love of God. It is only through the longsuffering coax, meek and gentle that a truly free nation can blossom. To compel on threat of death to comply or shed blood is not the way of God and will lead only to a struggle, violent and prolonged as each seeks to right perceived wrongs.

Our nation has lost liberty - we are now a nation of aspiring fascists, with local governments basking in martial retribution against even the smallest of slights. A small child with poor impulse control? The shackles go on. A man is challenged by confusion caused by a glycemic problem? Tazing him to death is deemed appropriate by those who are granted immunity from reason and responsibility.

We cannot be free in a land where a detective can take an autistic boy into a room and lie about having video of him raping his younger sister, even more mentally challenged, and demand that he either testify that his innocent father had raped the young girl or he would go to prison himself. Said detective was held personally immune for his misdeeds, with the burden of the settlement to be borne by the taxpayers he was sword to protect.

I already dealt with you on that in the other thread. You failed to support your issue there. Substances that take over the mind which controls the body (temple) which houses the spirit....are the opposite of liberty/freedom. Setting laws regarding such is a noble effort towards maintaining liberty/freedom. Unfortunately we now live during a time in which men call evil good and good evil.

I turn next to the courage you will need to be chaste and virtuous. You live in a world where moral values have, in great measure, been tossed aside, where sin is flagrantly on display, and where temptations to stray from the strait and narrow path surround you. Many are the voices telling you that you are far too provincial or that there is something wrong with you if you still believe there is such a thing as immoral behavior.

Isaiah declared, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness.” 4

Great courage will be required as you remain chaste and virtuous amid the accepted thinking of the times.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... e?lang=eng

Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn temptations toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Remember, God is our Heavenly Father.

Paul promised that “God … will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” 14 You can, if you will, break the habits and conquer an addiction and come away from that which is not worthy of any member of the Church. As Alma cautioned, we must “watch and pray continually.” 15

Isaiah warned, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” 16

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... l?lang=eng

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

I already dealt with you on that in the other thread. You failed to support your issue there. Substances that take over the mind which controls the body (temple) which houses the spirit....are the opposite of liberty/freedom. Setting laws regarding such is a noble effort towards maintaining liberty/freedom. Unfortunately we now live during a time in which men call evil good and good evil.

I am continuing to address it - you are choosing to ignore the vicious evil that is the drug war. Out of everybody on this forum I haven't seen a single person who is happier in attempting to destroy the US Constitution than you are.

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

I already dealt with you on that in the other thread. You failed to support your issue there. Substances that take over the mind which controls the body (temple) which houses the spirit....are the opposite of liberty/freedom. Setting laws regarding such is a noble effort towards maintaining liberty/freedom. Unfortunately we now live during a time in which men call evil good and good evil.

I am continuing to address it - you are choosing to ignore the vicious evil that is the drug war. Out of everybody on this forum I haven't seen a single person who is happier in attempting to destroy the US Constitution than you are.

That the sole object and only legitimate end of government is to protect the citizen in the enjoyment of life, liberty, and property, and when the government assumes other functions it is usurpation and oppression.

- The Proper Role of Government by Ezra Taft Benson

Do you have liberty or freedom when you are addicted to chemical substances?

Substances that take over the mind which controls the body (temple) which houses the spirit....are the opposite of liberty/freedom.

What has caused the drug war? The law made by the representatives of the people? The wickedness of the people (unwilling to abide by the law - a law unto themselves)?

Speaking of calling evil good and good evil....the drug war is the result of people who are unwilling to abide by the law (a law unto themselves) - both in government and outside of government....from the user to the seller to the transporter (etc etc etc).

What's the difference between the drug war today and the drug war of yesterday (Prohibition)?

By the time Elder Heber J. Grant became Church President in 1918, America was in a reform crusade called Prohibition. One year earlier, in December 1917, the U.S. Congress had approved an amendment to the Constitution making the production and sale of alcohol illegal; the states ratified the amendment in January 1919. President Grant, a Word of Wisdom advocate, called Prohibition “the greatest financial and moral blessing that has ever come to humanity.” 10 But Prohibition failed to end the alcohol trade, driving it underground instead.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/09/the-c ... h?lang=eng

Was it the law that was made by the representatives of the people or was it the wickedness of the people?

Unfortunately the people were much too wicked to abide by it and became a law unto themselves. Of course the devil made them do it. The alcohol didn't have anything to do with it either....or the money to be made from people desperate to have it (chained down by addiction). If anything the battle over Prohibition demonstrated the power of alcohol over the people (and not in the pursuit of freedom/liberty either).

So was it the law? Or was it wickedness and the chains of the devil that caused all of the symptoms you speak of?

I have never felt so humiliated in my life over anything as that the State of Utah voted for the repeal of Prohibition.

- President Heber J. Grant, Conference, Oct. 1934

From this very stand he pleaded with us not to repeal the Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. He didn't speak as Heber J. Grant, the man, he spoke as the President of the Church and the representative of our Heavenly Father. And yet in a state where we could have retained what we had, there were enough Latter-day Saints . . . who paid no attention to what the Lord wanted . . .and what is the result? Such delinquency as we have never known. . . .

- George Albert Smith, Conference, Oct 1943

One of the saddest days in all of Utah's history was when the people, including the Latter-day Saints (for it could not have been done without them), rejected the counsel and urging of the Lord's prophet, Heber J. Grant, and repealed Prohibition long years ago--yet many of those voters had sung numerous times, "We Thank Thee, O God, For A Prophet."

- The Teachings of Spencer. W. Kimball

Don't say you weren't warned...

Isaiah declared, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness.”

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... e?lang=eng

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

Do you have liberty or freedom when you are addicted to chemical substances?

Do you have liberty or freedom when the government monitors your every action, travel and word and grants themselves the absolute right to search your person or property at any time without a warrant?

Substances that take over the mind which controls the body (temple) which houses the spirit....are the opposite of liberty/freedom.

Will you please stop and think about what is being discussed here?

What's the difference between the drug war today and the drug war of yesterday (Prohibition)

Very little.

President Grant, a Word of Wisdom advocate, called Prohibition “the greatest financial and moral blessing that has ever come to humanity.”

This was his personal opinion, and I do not believe that it was a revelation from God because God could not possibly have been so wrong about anything.

But Prohibition failed to end the alcohol trade, driving it underground instead.

Duh. The outcome was manifestly obvious.

Was it the law that was made by the representatives of the people or was it the wickedness of the people?

The grammar of this fails to convey a coherent thought - care to try again?

The law was made by the representatives of the people - wickedness is intangible and has no vote in the halls of Congress. I must therefore conclude that you are attempting to express something but haven't quite made the translation from internal thought to spoken English.

So was it the law? Or was it wickedness and the chains of the devil that caused all of the symptoms you speak of?

If not for the law the devil would not have had the power.

I have never felt so humiliated in my life over anything as that the State of Utah voted for the repeal of Prohibition.

- President Heber J. Grant, Conference, Oct. 1934

From this very stand he pleaded with us not to repeal the Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. He didn't speak as Heber J. Grant, the man, he spoke as the President of the Church and the representative of our Heavenly Father.

A lot of people said that <long list of names here> were speaking as President of the Church and the representative of our Heavenly Father when they said that blacks would NEVER hold the priesthood.

And yet in a state where we could have retained what we had, there were enough Latter-day Saints . . . who paid no attention to what the Lord wanted . . .and what is the result? Such delinquency as we have never known. . . .

So your claim is not a SINGLE member prayed and believed that God told them to repeal the law that enabled Al Capone? The ONLY chance that the United States had to rid itself of the corruption and violence that was the inevitable outcome of prohibition was to lure the production, sale and trade of alcoholic beverages back out into the light. Prohibition was an evil law, a botched plan so categorically stupid and impotent from the start that there is no possible way that God had even a fraction of a fingerprint on it. There were only two possible outcomes - become a nation so divested of freedom that Saudi Arabia would have been inspired or the nation of corruption and vice that we saw.

Remember, both Hatch and Reid claim that God is guiding them. Which one is lying?

Isaiah declared, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness.”

And here you are, saying that it is good to subvert the Constitution of the United States of America. Here you are, saying that it is God's will to eliminate all personal freedom. Here you are, saying that God was only kidding when he inspired good, honest men to include a Bill of Rights protection your person and papers from unreasonable search.

You are waging an open war against life and liberty and have subverted a document inspired directly by God to justify your vision for a totalitarian government that seeks to emulate Lucifer himself. You are openly declaring that God no longer condemns those who would use force to compel obedience. 1/3 of the hosts of heaven agreed with you and look where they are now.

Legion, you have some serious repenting to do. God has never condoned the compulsion that you advocate and can not possibly be pleased with your invocation of His name to justify the brutal nature of the government you imagine.

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Do you have liberty or freedom when you are addicted to chemical substances?

Do you have liberty or freedom when the government monitors your every action, travel and word and grants themselves the absolute right to search your person or property at any time without a warrant?

Substances that take over the mind which controls the body (temple) which houses the spirit....are the opposite of liberty/freedom.

Will you please stop and think about what is being discussed here?

What's the difference between the drug war today and the drug war of yesterday (Prohibition)

Very little.

President Grant, a Word of Wisdom advocate, called Prohibition “the greatest financial and moral blessing that has ever come to humanity.”

This was his personal opinion, and I do not believe that it was a revelation from God because God could not possibly have been so wrong about anything.

Was it the law that was made by the representatives of the people or was it the wickedness of the people?

The grammar of this fails to convey a coherent thought - care to try again?

The law was made by the representatives of the people - wickedness is intangible and has no vote in the halls of Congress. I must therefore conclude that you are attempting to express something but haven't quite made the translation from internal thought to spoken English.

So was it the law? Or was it wickedness and the chains of the devil that caused all of the symptoms you speak of?

If not for the law the devil would not have had the power.

I have never felt so humiliated in my life over anything as that the State of Utah voted for the repeal of Prohibition.

- President Heber J. Grant, Conference, Oct. 1934

From this very stand he pleaded with us not to repeal the Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. He didn't speak as Heber J. Grant, the man, he spoke as the President of the Church and the representative of our Heavenly Father.

- George Albert Smith, Conference, Oct 1943

One of the saddest days in all of Utah's history was when the people, including the Latter-day Saints (for it could not have been done without them), rejected the counsel and urging of the Lord's prophet, Heber J. Grant, and repealed Prohibition long years ago--yet many of those voters had sung numerous times, "We Thank Thee, O God, For A Prophet."

- The Teachings of Spencer. W. Kimball

A lot of people said that <long list of names here> were speaking as President of the Church and the representative of our Heavenly Father when they said that blacks would NEVER hold the priesthood.

And yet in a state where we could have retained what we had, there were enough Latter-day Saints . . . who paid no attention to what the Lord wanted . . .and what is the result? Such delinquency as we have never known. . . .

So your claim is not a SINGLE member prayed and believed that God told them to repeal the law that enabled Al Capone? The ONLY chance that the United States had to rid itself of the corruption and violence that was the inevitable outcome of prohibition was to lure the production, sale and trade of alcoholic beverages back out into the light. Prohibition was an evil law, a botched plan so categorically stupid and impotent from the start that there is no possible way that God had even a fraction of a fingerprint on it. There were only two possible outcomes - become a nation so divested of freedom that Saudi Arabia would have been inspired or the nation of corruption and vice that we saw.

Remember, both Hatch and Reid claim that God is guiding them. Which one is lying?

Isaiah declared, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness.”

And here you are, saying that it is good to subvert the Constitution of the United States of America. Here you are, saying that it is God's will to eliminate all personal freedom. Here you are, saying that God was only kidding when he inspired good, honest men to include a Bill of Rights protection your person and papers from unreasonable search.

You are waging an open war against life and liberty and have subverted a document inspired directly by God to justify your vision for a totalitarian government that seeks to emulate Lucifer himself. You are openly declaring that God no longer condemns those who would use force to compel obedience. 1/3 of the hosts of heaven agreed with you and look where they are now.

Legion, you have some serious repenting to do. God has never condoned the compulsion that you advocate and can not possibly be pleased with your invocation of His name to justify the brutal nature of the government you imagine.

Agree to disagree. The only liberating thing about libertarianism is the liberation from your agency.

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

In 1933, while the Church was in the process of assisting its needy, a constitutional amendment ending Prohibition was proposed. Ignoring President Grant’s objections, Utah cast the deciding vote to repeal Prohibition. An unhappy President Grant remarked that some members who sang “We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet” seemed to add the words, “provided he keeps his mouth shut politically.” 18

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/09/the-c ... h?lang=eng

Believe His Prophets

I heard President Grant on several occasions before I met him. As teenage boys, my brother and I came to this Tabernacle at conference when there was room for anybody who wished to come. As boys are wont to do, we sat in the balcony at the very far end of the building. To me it was always impressive when this tall man stood to speak. Some kind of electricity passed through my boyish frame. His voice rang out in testimony of the Book of Mormon. When he said it was true, I knew it was true. He spoke with great power on the Word of Wisdom and, without hesitation, promised blessings to the people if they would observe it. I have often thought of the human misery, the pain that has resulted from the smoking of cigarettes, the poverty that has resulted from the drinking of liquor which might have been avoided had his prophetic counsel been followed.

He warned against the enslavement of personal debt. The world at that time was on a reckless pursuit of riches. Then came Black Thursday of November 1929. I was nineteen years of age, a student at the university. I saw the economy crumble. I saw men whom I knew lose everything as their creditors moved against them. I saw much of the trauma and the stress of the times. I thought then, and I have thought since, how so many people might have been saved pain and misery, suffering, embarrassment, and trouble had they listened to the counsel of a prophet concerning personal debt.

I go back to the words of Jehoshaphat: “Believe in the Lord your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.” (2 Chr. 20:20.)

There are many little things that test our willingness to accept the word of the prophets. Jesus said, “How often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” (Matt. 23:37.)

So it has been through the history of mankind, and so it is today. In our own communities, even here in Utah, we have experienced some of this. President Grant carried to his grave a deep sense of sorrow that, contrary to his counsel, the people of Utah cast the final vote, in 1934, that repealed the Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution.

I am grateful to say that we had a different experience some years ago when we joined with other citizens in a campaign to control the distribution of liquor. There is no question in my mind that great benefits have come as a result of the overwhelming response to direction from our prophet. There was a similar result when it was proposed that an MX Missile site be located here. Under the leadership of President Kimball, we took a position on this matter. I believe that not only were we of this part of the country blessed because of that position, but also the entire nation, and perhaps the world.

Now again, as always, we are faced with public moral issues, this time concerning lotteries, pari-mutuel betting, and other forms of gambling. The Presidents of the Church have spoken clearly and unequivocally on these matters.

These are little things, but they are important things. They bring to mind the great contest between the prophet Elijah and the priests of Baal. Said Elijah on that occasion, “How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him.” (1 Kgs. 18:21.)

I speak to the priesthood of this Church, wherever you may be gathered across the world, in gratitude for a prophet to guide us in these latter days. I plead for loyalty to him whom the Lord has called and anointed. I plead for steadfastness in upholding him and giving attention to his teachings. I have said on another occasion at this pulpit that if we have a prophet, we have everything. If we do not have a prophet, we have nothing. We do have a prophet. We have had prophets since the founding of this Church. We shall never be without a prophet if we live worthy of a prophet.

The Lord is watching over this work. This is His kingdom. We are not as sheep without a shepherd. We are not as an army without a leader.

I go back to those three words so frequently spoken by President Joseph Fielding Smith—“true and faithful.” God help us to be true and faithful, to hear with listening ears that counsel which has come from Him who is our Father and our God, and from Him who is our Savior and our Redeemer as they have spoken to us through those whom we sustain as prophets. I bear witness and testimony of these things and, my brethren, leave my blessing and love with you in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... s?lang=eng

I was on a mission, working in London, England, when I read the newspaper headlines that screamed, “Utah Kills Prohibition.”

President Heber J. Grant, then President of this Church, had pleaded with our people against voting to nullify Prohibition. It broke his heart when so many members of the Church in this state disregarded his counsel.

On this occasion I am not going to talk about the good or bad of Prohibition but rather of uncompromising loyalty to the Church.

How grateful, my brethren, I feel, how profoundly grateful for the tremendous faith of so many Latter-day Saints who, when facing a major decision on which the Church has taken a stand, align themselves with that position. And I am especially grateful to be able to say that among those who are loyal are men and women of achievement, of accomplishment, of education, of influence, of strength—highly intelligent and capable individuals.

Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... y?lang=eng

Are there moral absolutes? Speaking to our BYU students earlier this year, President Rex E. Lee said:

“I cannot think of anything more important than for each of you to build a firm, personal testimony that there are in this life some absolutes, things that never change, regardless of time, place, or circumstances. They are eternal truths, eternal principles and, as Paul tells us, they are and will be the same yesterday, today, and forever.” 1

Unfortunately, other educators deny the existence of God or deem God irrelevant to the human condition. Persons who accept this view deny the existence of moral absolutes. They maintain that right and wrong are relative concepts, and morality is merely a matter of personal choice or expediency. For example, a university professor reported that her students lacked what she called “moral common sense.” She said they believed that “there was no such thing as right or wrong, just good or bad arguments.” 2 In that view, even the most fundamental moral questions have at least two sides, and every assertion of right or wrong is open to debate.

I believe that these contrasting approaches underlie the whole discussion of religious values in public policy. Many differences of opinion over the role of religion in public life simply mirror a difference of opinion over whether there are moral absolutes. But this underlying difference is rarely made explicit. It is as if those who assume that all values are relative have established their assumption by law or tradition and have rendered illegitimate the fundamental belief of those who hold that some values are absolute.

One of the consequences of shifting from moral absolutes to moral relativism in public policy is that this produces a corresponding shift of emphasis from responsibilities to rights. Responsibilities originate in moral absolutes. In contrast, rights find their origin in legal principles, which are easily manipulated by moral relativism. Sooner or later the substance of rights must depend on either the voluntary fulfillment of responsibilities or the legal enforcement of duties. When our laws or our public leaders question the existence of absolute moral values, they undercut the basis for the voluntary fulfillment of responsibilities, which is economical, and compel our society to rely more and more on the legal enforcement of rights, which is expensive.

Some moral absolutes or convictions must be at the foundation of any system of law. This does not mean that all laws are so based. Many laws and administrative actions are simply a matter of wisdom or expediency. But many laws and administrative actions are based upon the moral standards of our society. If most of us believe that it is wrong to kill or steal or lie, our laws will include punishment for those acts. If most of us believe that it is right to care for the poor and needy, our laws will accomplish or facilitate those activities. Society continually legislates morality. The only question is whose morality and what legislation.

In the United States, the moral absolutes are the ones derived from what we refer to as the Judeo-Christian tradition, as set forth in the Bible—Old Testament and New Testament.

Despite ample evidence of majority adherence to moral absolutes, some still question the legitimacy of a moral foundation for our laws and public policy. To avoid any suggestion of adopting or contradicting any particular religious absolute, some secularists argue that our laws must be entirely neutral, with no discernable relation to any particular religious tradition. Such proposed neutrality is unrealistic, unless we are willing to cut away the entire idea that there are moral absolutes.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/10/relig ... y?lang=eng

To underscore further the dimensions of discipleship in our mortal experience, one way of looking at the “thou shalt not” commandments is that these prohibitions help us to avoid misery by turning us away from that which is enticing but harmful and wrong. However, once we are settled in terms of the direction of our discipleship and the gross sins are left firmly behind—“misery prevention” it might be called—then the major focus falls upon the “thou shalt” commandments.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/09/the-p ... p?lang=eng

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

The only liberating thing about libertarianism is the liberation from your agency.

You clearly don't have the first clue about libertarianism.

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

The only liberating thing about libertarianism is the liberation from your agency.

You clearly don't have the first clue about libertarianism.

LOL....I've studied it enough to know I want no part of it. From the folks who funded it to the basic premises of the religion (with all its key words just like the new age movement - force, violence, etc). Libertarianism preaches Utopia but in application practices craft and deceit. The proponents ignore God and the moral or natural law aspect of society. They want to be free but practice wickedness to their hearts content. To enjoy their stripper parties while ranting about individual liberties all while inherently knowing that money will dictate the resolution.

FYI - I'm not the one calling several prophets liars. When your pride has gotten to the point of making comments like this -

This was his personal opinion, and I do not believe that it was a revelation from God because God could not possibly have been so wrong about anything.

Despite President Grant making the declaration over the pulpit in General Conference as a prophet - both in counsel and regret following the saints choices....as well as several following prophets who testified of his position on it as God's spokesman (also in General Conference). Well hopefully you wake up and recognize libertarianism for what it is rather than stiffening your neck and getting your back up in defense of your skewed paradigm.