The Most brutal empire in history

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[BlueMoon5]

You would do well to visit the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial in France. Its 172.5 acres contains the graves of 9,387 U.S. men and women who paid the ultimate price.

: ....but large American corporations funded and helped create the Third Reich.....so that isn't what they died for. Next?

: Before moving to "Next," please provide documentation that discloses the names of those "large American corporations," the number involved, the means by which they "helped to create the Third Reich," and the dollar amounts they contributed (or other form of aid). Also, please name your sources.

Your post is impressive, even though much of it is far afield from what I invited you to do. The factoids are, admittedly, interesting. Some, however, derive conclusions that are at least open to challenge, or that could benefit from some context. Note: "There was nothing illegal doing business with the Thyssens throughout the 1930s, and many of America's best-known companies invested heavily in the German economic recovery" (theguardian, "How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power," Sept. 25, 2004). It is true, according to theguardian, that "even after America had entered the war and there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and polices, [Prescott] worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power."

It's fair to ask (Prescott being the exception), how many companies would have done business with the Nazis if they knew the evil state Gemany would become? In the early 30s Germany was perceived as just another international trading partner--not an entity that would annihilate six million Jews. That circumstance turns out to be a major problem with what I term "conspiracy literature." Yes, the factoids you post are correct as far as I know. The problem surfaces when those factoids are not counterbalanced with mitigatng information or are not put in perspective, as I have done in the first part of this paragraph.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Your post is impressive, even though much of it is far afield from what I invited you to do. The factoids are, admittedly, interesting. Some, however, derive conclusions that are at least open to challenge, or that could benefit from some context. Note: "There was nothing illegal doing business with the Thyssens throughout the 1930s, and many of America's best-known companies invested heavily in the German economic recovery" (theguardian, "How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power," Sept. 25, 2004). It is true, according to theguardian, that "even after America had entered the war and there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and polices, [Prescott] worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power."

It's fair to ask (Prescott being the exception), how many companies would have done business with the Nazis if they knew the evil state Gemany would become? In the early 30s Germany was perceived as just another international trading partner--not an entity that would annihilate six million Jews. That circumstance turns out to be a major problem with what I term "conspiracy literature." Yes, the factoids you post are correct as far as I know. The problem surfaces when those factoids are not counterbalanced with mitigatng information or are not put in perspective, as I have done in the first part of this paragraph.

You miss the point BlueMoon5. Many American companies were in business before and during the war. But that's just the beginning of the problem. IBM, General Motors, and Ford to name a few were allowed to continue business as usual under German subsidiaries under the marching orders from the owners of these companies. If that doesn't throw up Red Flags maybe this will. These companies not only build our military and weapons of War but they also built up Hitlers Military! Built by so called "American" companies. You see the problem yet..... These companies were profiteering on from both sides of the War. They were making huge profits off Germany because of slave labor. (Jewish slave labor) Ford and GM factories were transformed overnight from automakers into military producing machines.These companies had all the reason to want a war. Were talking huge profits. Under normal conditions a fair profit is somewhere between 3%-20%. During war however.... that is completely another matter -- 80%, 90%, 100%, 200%, 400%, 1,800% -- the sky is the limit. All that traffic will bear. Uncle Sam has unlimited money.. At American tax payers expense. Of course these companies love War and conspire for it.

When Hitlers Germany lost, these companies lost huge amounts of money... No war, no slave labor, less profits. So what do you think the American people did to reward these rich American/European men for there treachery? We start handing out BAILOUTS! We reward them by bailing them out.. Bailouts are nothing new. Almost unbelievable. These auto companies said they suffered so much loss from closing down shop in Nazi Germany that they needed help to cover their losses. And instead of hanging them for treason, or letting their companies fail.....we rewarded them. How stupid are we. It's no different today. They make a killing on the way up....and on the way down.

Here is a good article from the Washington Post concerning the history of Ford, GM and Nazi Germany. titled; "Ford and GM Scrutinized for Alleged Nazi Collaboration" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/na ... cars30.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

China's and Russia military machines.... built and paid for by us. If we go to war with Iran we will be fighting our own weapons. The ONLY ones who benefit from wars and benefit from bloodshed are the very ones who control America today. And these are the very men who NEVER had to shouldered a rifle or go to war. Never had to go through and endure the vigorous of war. They have us small guys die for their profit. Blood profit that is. War profiteers. These are the few who gained immensely from War and are a few of the very people that J Reuben Clark informed the church when he said in General Conference;

"The power people are now planning another war for you. They (power people)have made this depression last many more years than it would have ordinarily lasted. They got stock down to 14 cents on a dollar. They just bought up everything at 14 cents on a dollar, and they're now ready to make additional billions as they put you through another world war. They're going to have you pay for it. You're going to be involved in it. You don't think you'll get involved, but they'll say that for the peace of the world, you must come in, and you'll feel so soft-hearted about it, you'll come in. It will be just as big a mistake as World War I," which I thought was just great when we went in, and I now know, could have been handled differently, and we could have saved ourselves a lot of problems."

Who has the power to manipulate the great depression?? (you probably think the great depression was not deliberately planned) And how do they have the power to put us in another war? And he was right, they got there war, they got us involved, and we did pay for it. J Reuben Clark was right all along. J Reuben Clark knew the inner working of these groups because he worked for one. He worked for JP Morgan. He figured out their plans and spoke up and got fired. I guess you could call him a whistle blower. But he knew exactly what was going on, and how the people he worked for knew war was on the horizon and were willing to do whatever it took to get America involved and make a profit, and gain more control of the people. Here is an excerpt from a talk by Cleon Skousen recounting J Reuben Clarks experience working with JP Morgan.


J. Reuben Clark Was Trapped

But meanwhile, he had been trapped just like Woodrow Wilson had. It all came about in 1916, when a man — who was one of the wealthiest men, one of the top men in the country, whose name was Willard Strait, he was part of the J. P. Morgan people — came to him and asked if he wouldn’t like to have a junior partner. To have Mr. Strait, you know, as your partner, for a boy from Grantsville, way out in Utah, I mean, he’s gone clear up on the top level.

“Well,” he said, “where would we have our office?”

“Oh, in New York.”

“Where in New York?”

“Well, we have a skyscraper there, and we’ll be on the lower floor. Everything above you will be our client.”

“Just one client?”

“Yes, just one client.”

“What’s it called?”

“The American International Corporation, the first international conglomerate of industrial power that was ever organized in the United States.”

“What are we going to do?”

“Well, we’re going to use our money that all our people have, and we’re going to start buying up the industries and get things kind of organized together.”

What J. Reuben Clark didn’t know, they were going to have a war within about eighteen months, and they wanted to all of the copper and the steel and the boats and the railroads and everything to make the money from it. Clever. American International Corporation, and guess who was its attorney? J. Reuben Clark.

At first it seemed great, because they were buying up these great industries in Central America, the big fruit companies, all the boats they could get their hands on, the wharfs, steel, copper — I have them all listed here.

At the head of this international association, listen to who was on their board: Stone of the Webster Engineering Company, Percy Rockefeller of Standard Oil, J. Ogden of the Armor Company, Charles Kaufman of General Electric, James Hill of the Great Northern Railway, Oliver Kahn of Kunelob and Company, Robert Lovell of the Union Pacific, and so it goes on. I mean, you’re talking with the richest, the most powerful, and the strongest. He’s buying up millions and millions of dollar’s worth in all these companies.

So in 1916, Woodrow Wilson was elected on the basis that he would keep us out of the war. After he was inaugurated, we were in the war within six weeks. It’s all in this book. At that time, I was about five years old. I was getting on the scene now, gradually here, so I could watch what J. Reuben was doing.

The Life of J. Reuben Clark, Jr. by W. Cleon Skousen
http://www.latterdayconservative.com/ar ... -clark-jr/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JP Morgan (American International Corporation) knew WWII was around the corner and wanted to profit from it. So what did the American International Corporation do? They bought up everything they could make a profit on. Steel, Copper, and everything that goes along with war. Leather, powder, nickle, sugar, cotton, coal, garment makers, shoes, Airplane and engine manufacturers. Every country who was involved in WWII, weather it was America,France, Germany had to go to certain Corporations who had the product they needed for their war machines. These corporations were open to business to the world. Kinda like private contractors, military industrial complex, and many agencies. All open for business no mater who you are or where they come from. Wars, stealing, plundering, Pride, the desire for money, control. These are the few of the power people described by j R Clark. Tragedy and Hope by Carroll Quigley, None Dare Call it a Conspiracy by Gary Alan, The Politician by Robert Welch, and The Naked Capitalist by Cleon Skousen are a few of the many books that go more into detail into the workings of these "power people. "secret combinations"

Helaman 6:38 And it came to pass on the other hand, that the Nephites did build them up and support them, beginning at the more wicked part of them, until they had overspread all the land of the Nephites, and had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils, and to join with them in their secret murders and combinations.

The righteous did believe in their works and partake of their spoils. They bought the propaganda, believed the Wars were a good thing and eventually profited themselves. Who is building up/ giving our government the money to support these un-constitutional wars? Truth is if there were no profits to be made during war, we wouldn't be in any foreign lands.

Great work Jason. As always brother!

[Jason]

You would do well to visit the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial in France. Its 172.5 acres contains the graves of 9,387 U.S. men and women who paid the ultimate price.

....but large American corporations funded and helped create the Third Reich.....so that isn't what they died for. Next?

Before moving to "Next," please provide documentation that discloses the names of those "large American corporations," the number involved, the means by which they "helped to create the Third Reich," and the dollar amounts they contributed (or other form of aid). Also, please name your sources.

Your post is impressive, even though much of it is far afield from what I invited you to do. The factoids are, admittedly, interesting. Some, however, derive conclusions that are at least open to challenge, or that could benefit from some context. Note: "There was nothing illegal doing business with the Thyssens throughout the 1930s, and many of America's best-known companies invested heavily in the German economic recovery" (theguardian, "How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power," Sept. 25, 2004). It is true, according to theguardian, that "even after America had entered the war and there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and polices, [Prescott] worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power."

It's fair to ask (Prescott being the exception), how many companies would have done business with the Nazis if they knew the evil state Gemany would become? In the early 30s Germany was perceived as just another international trading partner--not an entity that would annihilate six million Jews. That circumstance turns out to be a major problem with what I term "conspiracy literature." Yes, the factoids you post are correct as far as I know. The problem surfaces when those factoids are not counterbalanced with mitigatng information or are not put in perspective, as I have done in the first part of this paragraph.

All of those "factoids" as you call them (since they are correct as far as you know...fyi - plenty more in Blipits).....build upon each other to paint a picture of who the major players are and how they interconnect to form the invisible hand that creates history (conspiratorial history vs. accidental history).

To answer your question (in bold and underline) I suggest you look up and research "The Business Plot" regarding said Prescott Bush (and major corporations - named in the hearings) and General Major Smedley Butler (at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in history).

Also you didn't mitigate anything in the 1st paragraph as I read it.....as you backed up said conclusions with your last paragraph....the one beginning with - "it is true"....

[BlueMoon5]

You would do well to visit the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial in France. Its 172.5 acres contains the graves of 9,387 U.S. men and women who paid the ultimate price.

....but large American corporations funded and helped create the Third Reich.....so that isn't what they died for. Next?

Before moving to "Next," please provide documentation that discloses the names of those "large American corporations," the number involved, the means by which they "helped to create the Third Reich," and the dollar amounts they contributed (or other form of aid). Also, please name your sources.

Your post is impressive, even though much of it is far afield from what I invited you to do. The factoids are, admittedly, interesting. Some, however, derive conclusions that are at least open to challenge, or that could benefit from some context. Note: "There was nothing illegal doing business with the Thyssens throughout the 1930s, and many of America's best-known companies invested heavily in the German economic recovery" (theguardian, "How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power," Sept. 25, 2004). It is true, according to theguardian, that "even after America had entered the war and there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and polices, [Prescott] worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power."

It's fair to ask (Prescott being the exception), how many companies would have done business with the Nazis if they knew the evil state Gemany would become? In the early 30s Germany was perceived as just another international trading partner--not an entity that would annihilate six million Jews. That circumstance turns out to be a major problem with what I term "conspiracy literature." Yes, the factoids you post are correct as far as I know. The problem surfaces when those factoids are not counterbalanced with mitigatng information or are not put in perspective, as I have done in the first part of this paragraph.

: All of those "factoids" as you call them (since they are correct as far as you know...fyi - plenty more in Blipits).....build upon each other to paint a picture of who the major players are and how they interconnect to form the invisible hand that creates history (conspiratorial history vs. accidental history).

: To answer your question (in bold and underline) I suggest you look up and research "The Business Plot" regarding said Prescott Bush (and major corporations - named in the hearings) and General Major Smedley Butler (at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in history).

: Also you didn't mitigate anything in the 1st paragraph as I read it.....as you backed up said conclusions with your last paragraph....the one beginning with - "it is true"....

Actually, both paragraphs employ mitigation: The fourth sentence in the first paragraph (. . ."There was nothing illegal. . . ."), and the last sentence in the second paragraph ("The problem surfaces. . . "). But that's probably of minor moment. All I'm saying is that the information you have presented appears to me to be accurate as far as it goes. There is, however, information that--at a minimum--tempers the overall thrust of what you have posted. Eugenics, for example, as "sick" as it sounds today, was actually well-intentioned. Some women were having six, seven, eight children by different fathers, and the states were having to support those women. So, the decision was made to sterilize them. Were there abuses? Absolutely. Many women were not informed that they were being sterilized, and their signatures were forged on the consent forms (or simply signed by an administrator).

[Jason]

You would do well to visit the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial in France. Its 172.5 acres contains the graves of 9,387 U.S. men and women who paid the ultimate price.

....but large American corporations funded and helped create the Third Reich.....so that isn't what they died for. Next?

Before moving to "Next," please provide documentation that discloses the names of those "large American corporations," the number involved, the means by which they "helped to create the Third Reich," and the dollar amounts they contributed (or other form of aid). Also, please name your sources.

Your post is impressive, even though much of it is far afield from what I invited you to do. The factoids are, admittedly, interesting. Some, however, derive conclusions that are at least open to challenge, or that could benefit from some context. Note: "There was nothing illegal doing business with the Thyssens throughout the 1930s, and many of America's best-known companies invested heavily in the German economic recovery" (theguardian, "How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power," Sept. 25, 2004). It is true, according to theguardian, that "even after America had entered the war and there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and polices, [Prescott] worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power."

It's fair to ask (Prescott being the exception), how many companies would have done business with the Nazis if they knew the evil state Gemany would become? In the early 30s Germany was perceived as just another international trading partner--not an entity that would annihilate six million Jews. That circumstance turns out to be a major problem with what I term "conspiracy literature." Yes, the factoids you post are correct as far as I know. The problem surfaces when those factoids are not counterbalanced with mitigatng information or are not put in perspective, as I have done in the first part of this paragraph.

All of those "factoids" as you call them (since they are correct as far as you know...fyi - plenty more in Blipits).....build upon each other to paint a picture of who the major players are and how they interconnect to form the invisible hand that creates history (conspiratorial history vs. accidental history).

To answer your question (in bold and underline) I suggest you look up and research "The Business Plot" regarding said Prescott Bush (and major corporations - named in the hearings) and General Major Smedley Butler (at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in history).

Also you didn't mitigate anything in the 1st paragraph as I read it.....as you backed up said conclusions with your last paragraph....the one beginning with - "it is true"....

Actually, both paragraphs employ mitigation: The fourth sentence in the first paragraph (. . ."There was nothing illegal. . . ."), and the last sentence in the second paragraph ("The problem surfaces. . . "). But that's probably of minor moment. All I'm saying is that the information you have presented appears to me to be accurate as far as it goes. There is, however, information that--at a minimum--tempers the overall thrust of what you have posted. Eugenics, for example, as "sick" as it sounds today, was actually well-intentioned. Some women were having six, seven, eight children by different fathers, and the states were having to support those women. So, the decision was made to sterilize them. Were there abuses? Absolutely. Many women were not informed that they were being sterilized, and their signatures were forged on the consent forms (or simply signed by an administrator).

Meant to say last sentence in the 1st paragraph....sorry about that mistype.

I think eugenics sounded just as sick (if not more so) then than it does now....hence the need to do it in secret without knowledge or consent. Your argument is basically satan's argument....that there are people too stupid (bold and underlined) to manage themselves and thus need someone smarter or more intelligent to direct them and their affairs. And since its satan's plan....its understandable that there were abuses (nature and disposition of all men...).

It absolutely chills me to the bone that you appear supportive of that....

[Oldemandalton]

The Most brutal empire in history?

The USA, NO!

How about these five?

The Top 5 Most Evil Empires Ever

5) Assyrians: The Assyrians were the first true terror state. Assyria ruled via terror - population reductions and deportation. They invented systematic genocide and ethnic cleansing. For the first time in history the idea of centralization was introduced into politics; the conquered provinces were organized under an elaborate bureaucracy at the head of which was the king, each district paying a fixed tribute and providing a military contingent. This was the first truly military society of history. No effort was spared which would contribute to the efficiency of the army, or which would assure continued Assyrian supremacy over all possible foes.

Terror was another factor contributing greatly to Assyrian success. Their exceptional cruelty and ferocity were possibly reflections of callousness developed over centuries of defense of their homeland against savage enemies. But theirs was also a calculated policy of terror -— possibly the earliest example of organized psychological warfare. It was not unusual for them to kill every man, woman, and child in captured cities. Sometimes they would carry away entire populations into captivity. The policies and procedures of Assyria were employed with vigor and ferocity by and proved invaluable in maintaining security.

4) Aztecs: The Aztec Empire should really count as one of the worst of the bunch but it only comes in at number four because their impact on world history was isolated. The Aztecs rules an empire that was rooted in a religion that required warfare to obtain human sacrifices. The Aztecs ruled their empire the way a cattle baron runs his ranch. The subjugated people under Aztec rule existed as stocks to keep the Aztec need for human sacrifices going as well as serving as a source of protein in times of famine.

While human sacrifice was practiced throughout Mesoamerica, the Aztecs, if their own accounts are to be believed, brought this practice to an unprecedented level. For example, for the reconsecration of Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan in 1487, the Aztecs reported that they sacrificed 84,400 prisoners over the course of four days, reportedly by Ahuitzotl, the Great Speaker himself.

The Aztecs covered their holy buildings and temples with human body parts and painted their inner holy sanctums with human blood. The smell of rotting human flesh was a pleasing aroma for them. Clearly they belong on the list in the top five.

3) Nazi Germany: For initiating wars of race and ideology on the world that totals and estimated human loss of life, irrespective of political alignment, at roughly 62 million people. The civilian toll was around 37 million, the military toll about 25 million. The Allies lost around 51 million people, and the Axis lost 11 million. For initiating concentration camps and death camps for civilians that killed millions. For making byproducts from human bodies and experimenting on them. The reason the Nazis are in the number three slot is that they only were in power for 12 years.

2) Communist nations: Since this was a semi-cohesive movement I have combined their crimes under the Red banner rather than single out if the USSR was worse that the Red Chinese, etc. According to "The Black Book of Communism" Communist regimes...turned mass crime into a full-blown system of government". Using unofficial estimates he cites a death toll which totals 94 million. and in my opinion trump the Nazis only because their reign of terror lasted longer - about 80 years.

1) Ottoman Turkey: This is a controversial pick for number one on the terror list but the Ottoman Turks ruled their empire - an empire based on control through terror for over 500 years. They kept subjugated people under their yoke through mass killings, population movements and forced conversions. Their victim totals are incalculable because the Turkish terror state lasted for so long.

They declared their state a warrior or "Gaz" state. In other words, a state that was bound to declare holy war (Jihad) against the non-believers. This way, they were able to bring together all kinds of adventurers, who were willing to fight either for ideological reasons, or for just the spoils of the war.

They adopted the inhumane measure of forcibly recruiting young Christian children. In other words, they forcibly took male children of the enslaved Christian families (mainly Greeks. and later also Armenians Bulgarians, Albanians and Serbs), and brought them up in special camps They conditioned them to become fanatic Turks and relentless killers to their own people. These children would grow up to believe that their father was the Sultan and that if they were to die in battle they would go to heaven. Thus, because of this New Army, or Janissaries, (Yeni-ceri in Turkish) the Turks continued to pursue their conquests.

They slaughtered systematically millions of Asia Minor's inhabitants, in order to change the ethnic character of the land. It has been estimated that during the seven centuries of Turkish presence in Asia Minor several millions of Greeks, at least two-three million Armenians and hundreds of thousands of Kurds, Syrians, but also Serbs, and Bulgarians in Europe, were systematically massacred. In the 20th century alone, it has been estimated that approximately 1,5 million Armenians and more than 1 million Greeks were exterminated.

In this manner, the Turks managed to hold on to Asia Minor, a foreign land for them, where Greek civilizations had flourished for 2.000 years before the appearance of the Turks.

The Turks just destroyed these civilizations and unfortunately did not even try to take advantage of its accomplishments.
In two previous occasions the Greek people contributed in civilizing their conquerors, as was the case with the Romans and the Franks. One must possess a cultural identity to be able to absorb what is creative and good from other civilizations. Unfortunately, the conquering Turks lacked such an identity.

The Turks also failed to administer their subject peoples within the Ottoman Empire. There were no "laws" in the civilized sense of the word. The Sultan's word was the law in the capital and arbitrary rule of local representatives was the law in the provinces. The property, honor, and life of the conquered were completely at the mercy of the occasional Turkish official.

The only bond that kept the multiethnic empire together was the crude use of force-ultimately the butchery-of the rulers. Slaughter was the rule without concern for innocence or guilt.

Under these conditions the Turkish administration was truly detestable to all the subject people who suffered and patiently waited for each opportunity to throw off the Ottoman yoke.

The Turks failed to assimilate the various nationalities within their empire. They could not also administer them efficiently, not even control the economy because commerce and industry was left in the hands of the Greeks, Armenians and Jews, while the Turks kept busy with governing and simultaneously exploiting the profits while terrorizing the inhabitants.

For the enslaved people to be finally liberated from their rulers there took place a series of revolutions, which led to the establishment of independent states. In 1908 the Young Turk revolution forced the Sultan to grant a constitution to the remnants of the Ottoman Empire.

In spite of the apparent liberalism of the formally bourgeois revolution, which was spearheaded by the military without the participation of the people, there continued to develop additional centrifugal tendencies as they did in the times of the Sultan's despotism. For those nations still within the Empire whose fellow nationals had established independent states, e. g. the Greeks- it was natural for them to seek union with their free compatriots. Those peoples still within the Empire that had not attained separate statehood, e.g. the Armenians, and the Kurds, focused all their energies towards the attainment of self-determination and the establishment of autonomous national homelands.

The Young Turks sought to rid themselves of troublesome non-Turkish ethnic groups so that they could build a homogeneous Turkish state and so they could avoid further mutilation of Turkish controlled territory in areas where non-Turks were in the majority, such as Eastern Thrace,
Western Asia Minor and Pontos, where the Greeks were in the majority, Eastern Asia Minor where the Armenians were in the majority and, Southeastern Asia Minor where the Kurds were in the majority.

Thus, the supposedly liberal and constitutionally oriented Young Turks returned to the usual Sultanic abrasiveness and brutality, which now became much more organized and systematic and assumed genocidal proportions.

The massacres were premeditated: It was decided that "the Ottomanisation of all Turkish citizens, which never succeeded through persuasion, had to be done by the force of arms",

This was stated in the L o n d o n T i m e s on the 3rd of October 1911 summarizing the proceedings of the Council of Union and Progress (The Young Turks).

At first, the persecutions took place against the Greeks, made under the pretext of the Balkan Wars (1912-1913). Persecution took the form of lootings, expulsions and murders. After the wars, persecution continued even more intensively, to the point where on the 25 of May 1914 the Ecumenical Patriarchate was forced to declare that the Orthodox Church was "under attack".

The Patriarchate, further, in a show of protest and mourning, suspended the activities of Greek churches and Greek schools throughout Turkey.
After the declaration of World War I, the Turks found the perfect opportunity to organize more effectively the massacres against ethnic minorities, so that they could finally transform their empire into a homogeneous nation-state.

Prominent officers of the Young Turks movement, while serving as members of the government, organized the expulsion of the inhabitants as well as the lootings and massacres that were perpetrated against them. Specifically, Talaat Pasha, minister of the interior, was prominent as the mastermind of the pogroms. However, the entire Turkish state administration participated in the organization and the execution of the extermination program.

They began with the genocide of the Armenians, who did not possess a state, which would rush to their aid and followed it up with mass expulsions and massacres of the Greeks. The victims of this period are over 2.5 million people of which 1.5 million were Armenians. In the chronological Index one can see detailed figures regarding the persecution of the Greeks of Asia Minor, Thrace and Pontos.

After the end of World War I, the Allies recognized that the Turkish government could not protect the property, honor, and life of the Greeks in the Ottoman Empire.

They assigned to Greece the responsibility to administer Eastern Thrace and the Smyrna district. This arrangement was contained in the Treaty of Sevres. Simultaneously, there was established a separate and independent Pontian state.

In 1920, Alexander Millerand, president of the Supreme Allied Council stated: "The Turkish government not only failed in its duty to protect its non-Turkish citizens from the looting, violence and murders, but there are many indications that the Turkish government itself was responsible for directing and organizing the most cruel attacks against the populations, which it was supposed to protect. For these reasons, the Allied powers have decided to liberate from the Turkish yoke all the lands where the majority of the people were non-Turks".

The Turkish government signed the Treaty of Sevres but Mustafa Kemal refused to recognize it.

After 40 long months of war, during which Kemal's forces secured considerable foreign assistance, the Greek military front in Anatolia collapsed.
The Turks reoccupied Asia Minor and entered Smyrna on September 8, 1922. In Smyrna, in the meantime, there was an influx of refugees from various parts of Asia Minor. And the conquering Turks set the city on fire and unleashed the last phase of the genocide against the Greeks and Armenians.

These were moments of unbelievable horror. The pier turned red by the blood of the victims. The bishop of Smyrna Chrysostomos was publicly ridiculed and then slaughtered. Events were too horrible to even describe. The American Consul in Smyrna, George Horton, gives a detailed and objective picture of the chilling Turkish crimes in his book T h e B l i g h t o f A s i a (Indianapolis: Bobb and Merryl, 1925).

The Treaty of Lausanne ended the Greek-Turkish war and imposed the unjust and mandatory exchange of 300,000 Turks from Greece for the 1,400,000 Greeks that survived the holocaust.

The Greek refugees of Asia Minor, without being consulted had to give up their ancestral homes to the Turks, after almost 4,000 years of glorious and productive history.

Through the unjust actions of massacre and persecution of Greeks and Armenians, the contemporary Turkish state was thus created. It was a state founded on crime, the state about which French prime minister George Clemanceau said on the 25th of June, 1919: "We do not find even one example in Europe, Asia, or Africa, where the imposition of Turkish sovereignty had not been followed by a decline in material prosperity, and by the impoverishment of its culture. Also there does not exist one example where liberation from Turkish control was not followed by the advancement of material prosperity and an improvement of the cultural level. Whether dealing with Christians or Muslims, the Turk has managed to bring destruction wherever he conquered. The Turk has never been able to develop in peace that which he won through conquest".

On the 26th of November 1979, the New York Times wrote quite characteristically: "According to the most recent statistics, the Christian population in Turkey was diminished from (4.500.000) at the beginning of this century to just about 150,000. Of those, the Greeks are no more than 7,000 yet, in 1923 they were as many as 1, 2 million" (After the massacres of many hundreds of thousands).

Even though human justice has not yet punished the Turks, one may believe that there is a Divine Justice to which the Turks will sooner or later be answerable.
http://www.jamiiforums.com/habari-na-ho ... -ever.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

10 Reasons America Will Be Judged as the Most Brutal Empire in History

Lew Rockwell

Good and evil doesn't have a grey zone. Killing and stealing is bad. Violence is never "good" or necessary unless it is used to defend against killers and thieves. Indeed, that is the morality behind the "just war" principle as defined by international laws and treaties.

Yet, this simple concept of right and wrong gets muddled by differing ideas about religion, patriotism, economics and many other divisions. The "just war" rule has crumbled under the ambitions of empires throughout history. The American-led Anglo Saxon empire is no different.

This empire has been brutally conquering and colonizing territory since the fall of Rome. However, it has only gained an American face in the last century. The United States quickly emerged as the world's "superpower" primarily through its economic might. For some time, many believed the U.S. to be a shining example of economic freedom for other nations to emulate. Indeed, America was eager to promote "economic freedom" globally to open new markets for U.S.-based corporations.

When foreign leaders refused to allow these corporate interests into their country, those leaders were replaced through a variety of covert actions. The form of government that would be installed did not matter to the empire makers so long as the corporate interests were served. In most cases these nations simply surrendered to the seemingly unlimited power of the almighty dollar, thus camouflaging the traditional method of forceful empire building.

However, some nations, especially in the last two decades, remained stubborn and have refused to alter their banking systems while also shunning Western companies. Despite the empire's best efforts to diplomatically bribe or sanction them into submission, they ultimately required an iron military fist to force their compliance. Until recently, military action remained the last resort. But now, preemptive military action seems to have become the preferred, and perhaps necessary, method to conquer the last resource-rich nations out of their grasp.

The empire's populations cheered this strategy out of fear of being attacked by these rogue nations who never attacked or even threatened to attack them. In the fog of fear, killing and stealing became acceptable. In fact, detention without charges and even torture became acceptable in the former capital of freedom. America has determined that the means justifies the end – which is more power.

As with all empires, these "means" have become increasingly violent and destructive in the face of resistance. Yet, only a few more dominoes are left to knock over for America to complete a plan set in motion well before they were one of the colonies. That is unless, of course, other world powers break ranks and attempt to stop the conquerors, which could lead to a large scale conflict.

Regardless, when the dust settles and moral history is written, America and her Western cohorts will likely be viewed as the most brutal empire in history. Here are ten reasons why this is already the case:

1. Support of Dictators: For all the happy talk of spreading Democracy and protecting human rights, the empire has repeatedly not only supported dictators, but in many cases overthrew popularly elected leaders and replaced them with puppet tyrants. Examples range from secretly funding the Nazis, to installing the Shah in Iran, Pinochet in Chile, supporting Musharraf in Pakistan, and their everlasting love affair with the brutal Saudi royal family, to name a few. Actions speak louder than words to those who can navigate the storm of propaganda with a moral compass set to recognize good from evil. Dictators and freedom cannot coexist.

Agreed

2. Preemptive Wars of Aggression: It could be said that all wars are preemptive in nature because so many entities benefit from war. Yet, even before America's latest crusades, they covertly and surgically attacked countries that never threatened them. This allowed them to maintain the moral high road in the public's eye while constructing the foundation of their empire. That was until the Bush Doctrine; the use of preemptive military action to confront possible threats was unofficially adopted to be the new foreign policy for combating terror. Since then, America has become the violent aggressors, having officially invaded two countries – Afghanistan and Iraq – without legitimate provocation. Violent aggressors have always been judged by history as evil. But it gets worse....

Going in to Afghanistan was justified just as Jefferson went into Libya in his day to fight the same Radical Islamists as were are now. After wiping out the Taliban we should have left, long ago.

3. Torture: Torture has never been acceptable by those promoting a high moral standing in the global community. Nazis and Japanese soldiers were convicted and executed for engaging in the exact same torture techniques that America has redefined as 'enhanced interrogation'. "I was just following orders," was not a justifiable excuse for such inhumane behavior, much like it wasn't a good enough defense for the low-ranking patsies who took the heat for the sinister Abu Ghraib torture scandal even though their actions were approved at the highest levels. Can state-sanctioned torture of prisoners held without charges ever be viewed as anything less than brutal?

Abu Ghraib was prisoner abuse by guards. 'Enhanced interrogation' are used on our own soldiers and airmen to prepare them for even worse torture by our enemies. That being said I don’t like torture either.

4. Suppression of Dissent: =)) All tyrannical regimes throughout history have suppressed homeland dissent. As government oppression grows bolder at home and abroad, more citizens will naturally express outrage, resulting in even more oppressive controls. This is happening in the United States through the all-seeing eye of the Department of Homeland Security with warrantless spying, arbitrary watch lists, citizen spy campaigns, and TSA molestation to travel anywhere. Additionally, in an attempt to squash free speech, they arbitrarily seize websites and violently confront peaceful protesters. Unfortunately, as awareness of the topics in this very article expands, the U.S. will likely become even bolder in their pursuit of stifling dissent. In other words, the worst is yet to come, and history will judge the U.S. as not quite the beacon of freedom they have pretended to be.

Suppression of Dissent? =)) =)) =))

Have you seen the videos from what happens to protestors in the Middle East, China and other 3rd World countries?

5. Elimination of Habeas Corpus: Say goodbye to the notion of being innocent until proven guilty, the right to face charges and your accuser, and the right to a free and fair trial. Habeas corpus, considered the only humane path to "which a prisoner can be released from unlawful detention," has been eliminated for those vaguely labeled 'enemy combatants' of the empire. As Guantanamo prisoners rot under such pretenses, prominent lawmakers in the empire propose the exact same lack of rights for American citizens if they're labeled an 'enemy belligerent'. Similar to the Spanish Inquisition, now you're guilty until you're tortured to admit your guilt. Can it get more evil? Why yes, it can. Read on.

"Since the inception of the Geneva Conventions, no country has ever given automatic habeas corpus rights to POWs."
http://www.heritage.org/research/report ... attlefield

There has never been Habeas Corpus in a war. When an enemy surrenders then you hold him till the war is over.

6. Assassinating Citizens: That's right. No judge, no jury, no conviction; just straight to execution. America has set another precedent in their tyrannical march toward empire when they openly assassinated an American citizen and government patsy, Anwar al-Awlaki, and his teenage son on the suspicion of terrorism. Paul Craig Roberts laments "Now the US government not only can seize a US citizen and confine him in prison for the rest of his life without ever presenting evidence and obtaining a conviction, but also can have him shot down in the street or blown up by a drone." Isn't this the reason America claims to be knocking off dictators around the world -- the deliberate killing of their own citizens?

But Awlaki was a bad apple because the intelligence community said so. What's most telling that America will continue this wickedness is that almost every US lawmaker turned a blind eye to the grotesque violation of Constitutional rights. Only Ron Paul said that assassinating an American citizen without charges is nothing less than an "impeachable offense". Too bad most of the country cheered the Awlaki killing as a "victory" in the war on terror, indicating that it is now an acceptable tactic. Americans beware: you may be moved from a secret watch list to a secret kill list in this brutal empire.

I agree that this is a bad president.

7. Unauthorized Drone Wars: Unprovoked wars without authorization, accountability, or independent oversight only seem to be escalating; and with little resistance. The US Congress no longer votes to "declare war". They simply give the Commander in Chief broad "authorization" to use force against specific nations. However, even that is not broad enough in the rapid pursuit of empire. Now, joystick warriors directed by the CIA and Pentagon have targeted at least three countries with "unauthorized" military strikes; Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia. Even worse, they waged a full-scale war for regime change and resource plundering in Libya without any authority inside the United States. Under the NATO flag, which is 75% funded by the U.S., they flew over 9200 strike sorties in Libya to illegally topple Gaddafi. Drunk with success, the bloodthirsty empire marches on to their next preemptive targets, Syria and Iran. Quick morality check: unprovoked killing and stealing as a first resort is still wrong, right?

Predators are a great weapon but can and are misused.

8. Use of Weapons of Mass Destruction: How ironic that the world's policeman for weapons of mass destruction is the only one to use them on a mass scale. The United States is on record using chemical, biological and even nuclear weapons. From the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in WWII, to Monsanto's Agent Orange in Vietnam, to the depleted uranium used in Afghanistan and Iraq, America only condemns itself when speaking about the evils of WMDs. However, killers don't appear to care how the killing is accomplished, so long as it achieves their goals. The real firecrackers will likely be brought out in a confrontation with Iran, or if China and Russia are lured into the conflict. It won't really matter much what history says if the use of WMD escalates by either side, but the aggressors should rightly be blamed for the ensuing scorched earth, while the defenders against killers and thieves should be viewed as righteous.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended the War and saved at least a million lives. Why was Nagasaki needed after Hiroshima. Because the fanatical leaders of japan were not going to give up no matter what. It took two!
Agent Orange and depleted uranium are not weapons of mass destruction. One is a defoliant and the other is used to kill tanks.

9. World's Largest Drug Dealer: The American empire is the largest drug dealer in the world? Say it isn't so. Well, in addition to forcing legal drugs and genetically modified organisms on nations, usually under the cover of foreign aid, America also leads in the illegal drug trade. In fact, many researchers reveal that the war on drugs is only utilized to control and monopolize the illicit drug trade. The US government has been caught multiple times shipping in cocaine, colluding with certain cartels to control the industry, and now openly protects and transports opium from Afghanistan. In fact, Global Research points out that in 2001, "according to UN figures, opium production had fallen to 185 tons. Immediately following the October 2001 US led invasion, production increased dramatically, regaining its historical levels." This month, the U.N. announced that Afghanistan now provides 93% of the world's opium production; up 61% compared to 2010 to a whopping 5800 tonnes. Although the empire tries to keep it secret, they can't hide the hypocrisy forever.

The LDGs what the populace drugged and asleep. “Give them circuses and cake.”

10. World Reserve Currency Prison: Although using Weapons of Mass Debt is a non-violent form of expanding the empire, it's perhaps the most brutal and effective form of control. Requiring foreign nations to purchase oil and other imported commodities with US dollars wields immense power. Because all nations must acquire dollars to purchase critical resources, they quickly become indebted to the US Federal Reserve, their affiliate central banks, and the IMF. Before long, the entire world is colonized by debt. It seems that only the nations that don't need or refuse credit from Western banking institutions are the ones in danger of facing the wrath of the imperial war machine. Incidentally, most oil-rich nations in the Middle East have outlawed usury (lending money with interest), making them impossible to conquer diplomatically through debt. Controlling the world reserve currency means controlling the tap of life itself, which is a dangerous weapon in the hands of an aggressive empire. Debt is the ultimate WMD the empire uses to enslave the world, which leaves dissidents with two clear choices: slavery or death.

Yes the Fed is evil. Getting off the gold standard and having the dollar as a world currency was plotted by the LDGs at Bretton Woods in July of 1944. Bretton Woods II followed and we just recently had a Bretton Woods III. World currency and government soon to follow.

Although this empire is infinitely more powerful than Rome was, it will likely suffer the same fate. For every negative action the empire commits, there's an equal and opposite good reaction. And the goodness of humanity will always defeat tyranny when it goes too far. However, an empire with so much to lose will go down swinging and slinging every weapon in its arsenal, thus putting the final stamp on their status as most brutal empire in history.

[BlueMoon5]

: I think eugenics sounded just as sick (if not more so) then than it does now....hence the need to do it in secret without knowledge or consent.

I understand why you feel that way. There is, however, this to consider: The women who had six+ children and who were single mothers, were under great stress, emotional and financial. The last thing they needed was another child--to care for and raise alone. In that context, sterilization was actually a blessing,

: Your argument is basically satan's argument....that there are people too stupid (bold and underlined) to manage themselves and thus need someone smarter or more intelligent to direct them and their affairs.

The harsh truth is that there are "people too stupid to manage themselves," including some women who have unprotected sex with a veritable parade of sperm donors (and who are on welfare and who already have six+ children). You do understand, don't you, that some people use their agency unwisely? Kindly note that I'm not engaged in promulgating arguments on behalf of satan.

: And since its satan's plan....its understandable that there were abuses (nature and disposition of all men...).

You rush to judgment here. You don't know that eugenics was satan's plan. In fact, it was taught by a devout Latter-day Saint (biology class) when I was in high school. Several states conducted the program, with North Carolina being the last (right up to circa 1970!). BTW, you have a tendency to cast virtually every issue in white (God) and red (satan). Some issues do not accommodate absolutism.

: It absolutely chills me to the bone that you appear supportive of that....

Chill out: You make a baseless assumption. I didn't say I supported the program. I said the program was well intentioned, and I added that there were abuses.

[Jason]

I think eugenics sounded just as sick (if not more so) then than it does now....hence the need to do it in secret without knowledge or consent.

I understand why you feel that way. There is, however, this to consider: The women who had six+ children and who were single mothers, were under great stress, emotional and financial. The last thing they needed was another child--to care for and raise alone. In that context, sterilization was actually a blessing,

Your argument is basically satan's argument....that there are people too stupid (bold and underlined) to manage themselves and thus need someone smarter or more intelligent to direct them and their affairs.

The harsh truth is that there are "people too stupid to manage themselves," including some women who have unprotected sex with a veritable parade of sperm donors (and who are on welfare and who already have six+ children). You do understand, don't you, that some people use their agency unwisely? Kindly note that I'm not engaged in promulgating arguments on behalf of satan.

And since its satan's plan....its understandable that there were abuses (nature and disposition of all men...).

You rush to judgment here. You don't know that eugenics was satan's plan. In fact, it was taught by a devout Latter-day Saint (biology class) when I was in high school. Several states conducted the program, with North Carolina being the last (right up to circa 1970!). BTW, you have a tendency to cast virtually every issue in white (God) and red (satan). Some issues do not accommodate absolutism.

It absolutely chills me to the bone that you appear supportive of that....

Chill out: You make a baseless assumption. I didn't say I supported the program. I said the program was well intentioned, and I added that there were abuses.

You say chill out....while continuing to go about justifying taking someone's agency away (bold and underline) from them secretly without respect for moral constraint or rule of law. I don't care where its taught....its satanism. We are about to see the final battle (at least prior to the next one that's a thousand years away)....via new age ideology which is based on the same principle - ignorant people unable to make correct decisions for themselves thus their agency should be taken away and those decisions made by "smarter" people - the "illuminated ones". Which in this case is satan and minions....and the heart of the problem is religious fanatics. Separation is coming soon....

What happened to teaching people correct principles and letting them govern themselves? Nah too much work to educate....best to just neuter them....or eliminate them. Force (typically via government) - satan's plan.

I know...you figure you are one of the smart ones. Of course it all depends on who's doing the measuring as Governor Boggs demonstrated...

[BlueMoon5]

: You say chill out....while continuing to go about justifying taking someone's agency away (bold and underline) from them secretly without respect for moral constraint or rule of law.

The procedure was legal in the states wherein it was practiced. That doesn't mean it was morally acceptable, but it was legal.

: I don't care where its taught....its satanism.

So, my LDS biology teacher in high school was a satanist. I wonder if his bishop knew that.

: We are about to see the final battle (at least prior to the next one that's a thousand years away)....via new age ideology which is based on the same principle - ignorant people unable to make correct decisions for themselves thus their agency should be taken away and those decisions made by "smarter" people - the "illuminated ones". Which in this case is satan and minions....and the heart of the problem is religious fanatics. Separation is coming soon....

There are millions of people who cannot or will not "make correct decisions for themselves." Some are drug addicts, some are criminals, some are promiscuous, some are mentally impaired, some have learning disabilities. Has satan taken away their agency? How so? Don't you think that such people need--and should seek--professional help? Why does the LDS Church have a counseling program? Why does Deseret Industries hire employees for only a short time--until they are prepared for "mainstream" employment? Why does the Church operate the most efficient welfare program on the planet? Why does the Church facilitate adoptions for babies born to unwed mothers? You champion a laissez faire approach to people who genuinely need help; the Church does the opposite.

: What happened to teaching people correct principles and letting them govern themselves?

Ask the people who will not accept correct principles and who will not govern themselves.

: I know...you figure you are one of the smart ones. Of course it all depends on who's doing the measuring as Governor Boggs demonstrated...

I think you may be bogged down again in absolutism.

[Jason]

I think you may be bogged down again in absolutism.

Well there are two absolutes....two ends of the polar spectrum. We've been told (Ezra Taft Benson) -

I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil.

http://lds.org/general-conference/1988/ ... y?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So tell me oh wise one....where does one person obtain the authority (right) to secretly (against their will or without them knowing) take away another persons right to procreate??? Or infect them with infectious diseases? Or even take their lives in the process?

And once you start down that road - what are the constraints? where does it end? who is the ultimate authority to make such decisions? what kind of person would support or instigate such behavior? who would be the ultimate author of such activity?

[seer stone]

If we are not able to build into ourselves and our families the brakes of self-restraint and self-discipline, we are apt, unwittingly, to create tyranny in our government or anarchy in our citizenry. If we push onto the government the management not only of our economy, but also the management of our morals, the civil servants of the future will be neither civil nor servants.
--Neil A Maxwell--

Does our government actually finance organizations to tear down the morals of our citizenry for the sole purpose of controling and managing their destiny? If so, Satan has an influence in our government.

[moonwhim]

If we are not able to build into ourselves and our families the brakes of self-restraint and self-discipline, we are apt, unwittingly, to create tyranny in our government or anarchy in our citizenry. If we push onto the government the management not only of our economy, but also the management of our morals, the civil servants of the future will be neither civil nor servants.
--Neil A Maxwell--

Does our government actually finance organizations to tear down the morals of our citizenry for the sole purpose of controling and managing their destiny? If so, Satan has an influence in our government.

I think way back to the war on poverty where black families were destroyed by subsidizing the women to have more children and long as the father wasn't in the home.

[dennis]

Great Maxwell Quote; I have a book of Niel Maxwell Quotes, but I havent read that one..

Yes, our government does actually finance organizations to tear down the morals of our citizenry for the sole purpose of controling and managing their destiny? If so, Satan has an influence in our government.
In fact that is exactly , precisely what the sole objective that every gov. program aims to accomplish. This is carried out primarily through propaganda through the mass media. Here is another example. Totally innocent people are held indefinitely and tortured by the US government for no other reason than to convince the gullible public that they are endangered by terrorists, but those who wiped out the home ownership and retirement pensions of millions of Americans now hold high and honorable positions on corporate boards and US regulatory agencies.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/10/24/ ... t-america/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Something else that hasent been mentioned... The atrocities carried out by the CIA in secret and covert operations, are worse than all the rest of the terrible acts listed on this thread so far.

[BlueMoon5]

: Well there are two absolutes....two ends of the polar spectrum. We've been told (Ezra Taft Benson) -

I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil.

http://lds.org/general-conference/1988/ ... y?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You fail to note that President Benson stipulated a timeline; i.e., "As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required. . . ." In the meantime, there is the muddle of the middle; i.e., some issues have yet to become "clearer and more obvious."

: So tell me oh wise one....where does one person obtain the authority (right) to secretly (against their will or without them knowing) take away another persons right to procreate???

Are you unaware that China has a "one child" policy, or that it's acceptable in India to let a female baby die because of the burden females impose on families in that country? Where do they get that "right"? In their laws. Where did states involved in the eugenics program get the authority to do what they did--and in secret? I have already told you, the program was legal. Was it moral? No. You might as well ask, Where did certain southern states get the right to discriminate against blacks before the Civil Rights Act? Discriminatory language was written into their laws.

: Or infect them with infectious diseases? Or even take their lives in the process?

Under Hitler, it was "legal" to experiment on human beings by, among other atrocious acts, injecting them with deadly diseases. Some victims were told the injections would improve their health. Note, however, the following: "The current care of patients with infectious diseases owes a tremendous debt to healthy volunteers who allowed investigators to induce a disease in them for the study of transmission, natural history, and treatment" (Oxford Journals, "Infectious Disease Experimentation Involving Human Volunteers," Nov. 13, 2001). Obviously, the risks were fully disclosed to those volunteers. My point, though, is that even if the risks had not been disclosed, what was learned would have been just as medically valuable. I am NOT advocating that approach; I'm simply pointing out that disclosure, by itself, does not affect the usefulness of such an enterprise.

: And once you start down that road - what are the constraints? where does it end? who is the ultimate authority to make such decisions? what kind of person would support or instigate such behavior? who would be the ultimate author of such activity?

I think you know the answers as well as I do. For Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Pol Pot, etc., there were no restraints; they were the ultimate authorities to make "such decisions". . .the "ultimate authors." Who would "instigate such behavior"? Principally, I believe, psychopathic personalities. The people who instigated the eugenics movement were not, to my knowledge, psychopathic; they sincerely believed--misled though they were--that they were making a positive contribution to society. Alfred Kinsey, on the other hand, postured himself as a serious human sexuality researcher; he was, in fact, a pedophile.

[Jason]

Well there are two absolutes....two ends of the polar spectrum. We've been told (Ezra Taft Benson) -

I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil.

http://lds.org/general-conference/1988/ ... y?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You fail to note that President Benson stipulated a timeline; i.e., "As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required. . . ." In the meantime, there is the muddle of the middle; i.e., some issues have yet to become "clearer and more obvious."

Read the whole talk and you'll quickly see where the timing fits...

So tell me oh wise one....where does one person obtain the authority (right) to secretly (against their will or without them knowing) take away another persons right to procreate???

Are you unaware that China has a "one child" policy, or that it's acceptable in India to let a female baby die because of the burden females impose on families in that country? Where do they get that "right"? In their laws. Where did states involved in the eugenics program get the authority to do what they did--and in secret? I have already told you, the program was legal. Was it moral? No. You might as well ask, Where did certain southern states get the right to discriminate against blacks before the Civil Rights Act? Discriminatory language was written into their laws.

You can dance around it all you want (or you obviously have no understanding of "right" and the basis for rights).....but the Declaration of Independence is quite clear on it....as well as the Constitution.

Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.

I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.

Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/ ... lang=eng#5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/ ... lang=eng#4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It was legal to kill Mormons for a time in Missouri....but that law came from satan. Again you continue to justify satanic practices....and dig the hole a little deeper every time.

Or infect them with infectious diseases? Or even take their lives in the process?

Under Hitler, it was "legal" to experiment on human beings by, among other atrocious acts, injecting them with deadly diseases. Some victims were told the injections would improve their health. Note, however, the following: "The current care of patients with infectious diseases owes a tremendous debt to healthy volunteers who allowed investigators to induce a disease in them for the study of transmission, natural history, and treatment" (Oxford Journals, "Infectious Disease Experimentation Involving Human Volunteers," Nov. 13, 2001). Obviously, the risks were fully disclosed to those volunteers. My point, though, is that even if the risks had not been disclosed, what was learned would have been just as medically valuable. I am NOT advocating that approach; I'm simply pointing out that disclosure, by itself, does not affect the usefulness of such an enterprise.

...and deeper! Weren't you just discussing earlier the lives lost to fight the "evil" Nazi regime???

And once you start down that road - what are the constraints? where does it end? who is the ultimate authority to make such decisions? what kind of person would support or instigate such behavior? who would be the ultimate author of such activity?

I think you know the answers as well as I do. For Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Pol Pot, etc., there were no restraints; they were the ultimate authorities to make "such decisions". . .the "ultimate authors." Who would "instigate such behavior"? Principally, I believe, psychopathic personalities. The people who instigated the eugenics movement were not, to my knowledge, psychopathic; they sincerely believed--misled though they were--that they were making a positive contribution to society. Alfred Kinsey, on the other hand, postured himself as a serious human sexuality researcher; he was, in fact, a pedophile.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions....

Why does the adversary try to imitate the work of God by transforming himself nigh unto an angel of light? How does he sell his wares? Entice his victims? Why does he work in darkness and in secret? Why is he called a murderer from the beginning? Why does he stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness? How does he deceive the whole world?

[BlueMoon5]

: . . .You can dance around it all you want (or you obviously have no understanding of "right" and the basis for rights).....but the Declaration of Independence is quite clear on it....as well as the Constitution.

You make a fundamental error, Jason. You assume that we are governed by a theocracy. That error appears in this post and in many of your other posts. You further assume that the theocracy is modeled after LDS doctrine, adding blunder upon blunder. . .naivety upon naivety.

Do I believe our country's foundational documents were divinely inspired? Yes, but the millennium has not arrived yet; Satan is not bound.

[AussieOi]

[quote="BlueMoon5"]
Your post is impressive, even though much of it is far afield from what I invited you to do. The factoids are, admittedly, interesting.[/quote]

BlueMoon5, I have been here, what, 6 years?

His was quite possibly the best and most comprehensive post I have read here, or anywhere

In the context of many discussions held here, and elsewhere, ideally covering quite possibly THE singularly most relevant topic of our generation, it is definitive reading

I would go as far as to say it should be a fresh post in a new thread by itself, and then made sticky

Your rabbiting on and dismissing it as you did truly exposes you for a goose

[AussieOi]

I think you may be bogged down again in absolutism.

Is that you Jay Bybee

Or your other LDS mate who also wrote the torture brief?

[Jason]

: . . .You can dance around it all you want (or you obviously have no understanding of "right" and the basis for rights).....but the Declaration of Independence is quite clear on it....as well as the Constitution.

You make a fundamental error, Jason. You assume that we are governed by a theocracy. That error appears in this post and in many of your other posts. You further assume that the theocracy is modeled after LDS doctrine, adding blunder upon blunder. . .naivety upon naivety.

Do I believe our country's foundational documents were divinely inspired? Yes, but the millennium has not arrived yet; Satan is not bound.

Oh yes...I make a fundamental error in making the assumption that we are governed by principles....how dare I....

I should follow your lead instead and justify satanic practices because wicked men happen to make it "legal"....

[BlueMoon5]

The Most brutal empire in history?

The USA, NO!

OMD posted this concluding paragraph by Lew Rockwell:

: "Although this empire is infinitely more powerful than Rome was, it will likely suffer the same fate. For every negative action the empire commits, there's an equal and opposite good reaction. And the goodness of humanity will always defeat tyranny when it goes too far. However, an empire with so much to lose will go down swinging and slinging every weapon in its arsenal, thus putting the final stamp on their status as most brutal empire in history.

Latter-day Saints have, however, been told otherwise--by President Harold B. Lee: "Men may fail in this country, earthquakes may come, seas may heave beyond their bounds, there may be great drought, disaster, and hardships, but this nation, founded on principles laid down by men whom God raised up, WILL NEVER FAIL [emphasis by the prophet]. This is the cradle of humanity; where life on this earth began in the Garden of Eden. This is the place of the New Jerusalem. This is the place where the Savior will come to His temple. We are living in a time of great crisis. The Country is torn with scandal and with criticism, with fault finding and condemnation. There are those who have downgraded the image of this nation as probably never before in the history of the Country. I plead with you not to preach pessimism. Preach that this is the greatest country in all the world."

[BlueMoon5]

[ . . . Oh yes...I make a fundamental error in making the assumption that we are governed by principles....how dare I....
I should follow your lead instead and justify satanic practices because wicked men happen to make it "legal"....

We are governed by principles, but they are not driven by a theocracy based on LDS doctrine. That must wait for another day.

[AussieOi]

Latter-day Saints have, however, been told otherwise--by President Harold B. Lee: "Men may fail in this country, earthquakes may come, seas may heave beyond their bounds, there may be great drought, disaster, and hardships, but this nation, founded on principles laid down by men whom God raised up, WILL NEVER FAIL [emphasis by the prophet]. This is the cradle of humanity; where life on this earth began in the Garden of Eden. This is the place of the New Jerusalem. This is the place where the Savior will come to His temple. We are living in a time of great crisis. The Country is torn with scandal and with criticism, with fault finding and condemnation. There are those who have downgraded the image of this nation as probably never before in the history of the Country. I plead with you not to preach pessimism. Preach that this is the greatest country in all the world."

and here is me stupidly thinking I belonged to a Global church that transcended lines on a map

[Jason]

. . . Oh yes...I make a fundamental error in making the assumption that we are governed by principles....how dare I....
I should follow your lead instead and justify satanic practices because wicked men happen to make it "legal"....

We are governed by principles, but they are not driven by a theocracy based on LDS doctrine. That must wait for another day.

What's your point???

How does that justify wickedness......or rationalizing wickedness???

One of the greatest gifts God has given us in this earthly experience is the capability to procreate. You have been rationalizing and justifying taking that gift away from a brother or sister in secret against their will. Please explain how that is not satanic doctrine!

[Oldemandalton]

I don’t know anyone who believes for a second that The USA is full of virtuous and angelic beings and has acted perfectly in its long history. The ink was barely dry on our Constitution when Satan and his minions began cutting its threads. It took over 200 years to get to this point. Lucifer and those who do his bidding are very patient and are practiced at taking down nations and empires. They’ve been doing it for 6000 years. We all feel the time is short. We are at a tipping point. Those who still feel love for this country despite its sins will save it and the Constitution. What I am afraid it that the hateful propaganda of the LDGs will discourage the deceived to not try to save the Constitution but stand back, doing nothing, and watch it fall with relish.



OMD