The Most brutal empire in history

[dennis]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/spl3/america ... mpire.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Fiannan]

Not sure about whether the USA surpasses Ghengis Khan, but then again Ghengis Khan did not have a Constitution that was supposed to hold him back.

[AussieOi]

im no fan of the USA and tend to barrack for its enemies in most wars (all since Korea) but i reckon Maoist china is pretty evil. lot of forced abortions etc, one child policy.
stalinist russia pretty cruel also
but yeah, US also has a place alongside these

[sbsion]

relative to death or "killing the spirit of Christ?"

[SpeedRacer]

Posts like these crack me up. There is such a thing as the wrath of God. Usually he uses the wicked to destroy the wicked, but not always. Take Cannan. He took his covenant people and told them to go in and destroy everything. While this is brutal, it was just. I had an LDS friend post on Facebook on Columbus day about celebrating a man who came over and destroyed all the Indians, or native Americans. While what happened by the settlers to the current residents could also be seen as brutal, it was ordained by God. Until we have all the records of all the people and all the history, I reserve judgement for all wars. The take away for me is don't desecrate that which is holy and keep your covenants. Your great grand kids will be thankful. Demonizing a country for actions that were just is spin.

[BlueMoon5]

im no fan of the USA and tend to barrack for its enemies in most wars (all since Korea) but i reckon Maoist china is pretty evil. lot of forced abortions etc, one child policy.
stalinist russia pretty cruel also
but yeah, US also has a place alongside these

You might want to reflect on the billions (and billions) of dollars America has given in foreign aid. You might want to reflect on the hundreds of teams of agronomists, engineers, doctors, dentists, teachers, water resource/purification specialists, etc., who have--typically at their own expense--gone to the aid of poverty-ridden countries, sometimes risking their lives. You might want to reflect on the millions of tons of medical supplies, building materials, construction equipment, food, clothing, shoes, blankets, etc., America has given to those countries. You might want to reflect, too, on the Berlin Airlift and the Lend-Lease Program and the rebuilding of Europe after WWII (President Benson had a significant role in that).

The title of your post is (to be charitable) inaccurate.

[gkearney]

I don't buy the idea the the U. S. is somehow worse than the bloodstained rule of a place like Nazi germany or Stalins Russia.

The issue I guess is the the United State is supposed to be a light on a hill and so when it fails to live up to it self professes standard we see it all the more.

[Jason]

im no fan of the USA and tend to barrack for its enemies in most wars (all since Korea) but i reckon Maoist china is pretty evil. lot of forced abortions etc, one child policy.
stalinist russia pretty cruel also
but yeah, US also has a place alongside these

You might want to reflect on the billions (and billions) of dollars America has given in foreign aid. You might want to reflect on the hundreds of teams of agronomists, engineers, doctors, dentists, teachers, water resource/purification specialists, etc., who have--typically at their own expense--gone to the aid of poverty-ridden countries, sometimes risking their lives. You might want to reflect on the millions of tons of medical supplies, building materials, construction equipment, food, clothing, shoes, blankets, etc., America has given to those countries. You might want to reflect, too, on the Berlin Airlift and the Lend-Lease Program and the rebuilding of Europe after WWII (President Benson had a significant role in that).

The title of your post is (to be charitable) inaccurate.

Yes good one....Lend-Lease Program and Operation Keelhaul (murder of anywhere from 4-10 million people who might have opposed the Russians)....

[Jason]

I don't buy the idea the the U. S. is somehow worse than the bloodstained rule of a place like Nazi germany or Stalins Russia.

The issue I guess is the the United State is supposed to be a light on a hill and so when it fails to live up to it self professes standard we see it all the more.

Nazi Germany and Stalin's Russia both came about with US aid....

[BlueMoon5]

I don't buy the idea the the U. S. is somehow worse than the bloodstained rule of a place like Nazi germany or Stalins Russia.

The issue I guess is the the United State is supposed to be a light on a hill and so when it fails to live up to it self professes standard we see it all the more.

Nazi Germany and Stalin's Russia both came about with US aid....

In fact, U.S. aid was deliberately designed to create Nazi Germany and Stalin's Russia. Amazing, is it not?

[Neil Rucker]

“The sum of all is, if we would most truly enjoy the gift of Heaven, let us become a virtuous people; then shall we both deserve and enjoy it. While on the other hand, if we are universally vicious and debauched in our manners, though the form of our Constitution carries the face of the most exalted freedom, we shall in reality be the most abject slaves.” (Samuel Adams, The Life and Public Service of Samuel Adams, 1:22-23.)

[believer]

Hmm. You might try Pol Pot, Hitler, Ghangis Khan, China, Ethiopia, Rome. There are others, but I can't think of them right off hand.

Maybe you would rather live in a country that arrests you for not having your beard the right length, or puts you to death for joining another religion, or beats women if they go out in public alone, or throws acid in the faces of girls who go to school.

[Steve Clark]

Hmm. You might try Pol Pot, Hitler, Ghangis Khan, China, Ethiopia, Rome. There are others, but I can't think of them right off hand.

Maybe you would rather live in a country that arrests you for not having your beard the right length, or puts you to death for joining another religion, or beats women if they go out in public alone, or throws acid in the faces of girls who go to school.

While we may not technically be the absolute worst society in the history of the world, I don't take comfort in the thought, "Well, we're not as bad as Hitler." We're bad enough and ripe for destruction, IMO. I know the Lord has a different definition of being ripe for destruction, since we're still here for the time being, but this honestly surprises me. He truly is full of patience.

[AussieOi]

900 military bases in 176 nations

and with that gold i will buy armies, and navies

oppress, terror

vietnam - carpet bombing with B-52s, Napalm,
afghanistan- we will bomb you back to the stone age
iraq- shock and awe baby, terrorising an entire country. white phospherous and depleted uranium
all over- #1 supplier of arms and land mines
#1 supplier of cluster munitions
#1 user of D.E & white phospherous

but yes, the USA is decreed by god to destroy the original inhabitants
yes, 1492 was the only way the pilgrims were ever going to get on a ship and land 6000miles in a different hemispere, yes, it was the only way

your country is born in blood, it is bred in blood, it is drowning in blood
your anthem is about blood and its bombs
you are jingoists of the worst kind
you terrorise the world, fund israel which is another terrorist nation

china was internal
stalin likewise- although ukraine was not
you even genocided 10 million indians
your people slaughtered 40 million bison so the indians couldnt eat or stay warm and would die
your people murdered a prophet and decreed death on the saints
i have no idea why anyone would defend this "america"
the constitution maybe, a few amendments for sure (lets not ignore many of your rights are not found in the constitution but in the amendments- because it was imperfect)
aside from 1 or 2 comments about this glorious constitution by the church, including an early church struggling to define itself and reinforce that it was not seeking to overthrow the US govt while it was desperate to show support and patriotism, apart from that and a few ETB quotes aimed at protecting against creeping communism, i fail to understand why anyone would want to say it is anything other than the most brutal empire in history

it used a nuclear weapon for goodness sake
the atom bomb. on innocent people
over 100,000 murdered in a blink of an eye
TWICE
D.U- it is still doing it today
is it any wonder why we went West? it was a FORCED march

now, your country has the highest rate of incarceration, murder, homicide, rape, and shootings in the world

from teh top down and the bottom up, aside from a few poverty stricken cleetus' in the mid west, your country- like mine- is ripe for the picking
dont for a second think i dont know my country is any different, we are right there with you
the only difference is my coutnry is not an empire, and your country has 30 military bases in my country, our leaders know why shoes we have to lickspittle

43 millions of its citizens relying on food stamps for their ability to eat.
99% aint that the truth
kent state repeated over and over right now
there is a brutal side to all empires

[believer]

Wow Aussie, I feel your hate. That hate, however, is not reciprocated.


Believer

[LukeAir2008]

We have to get things in perspective.

Yes the current United States is a brutal empire which destroys the lives of many. As prophesied in the Book of Mormon (Ether 8) a terrible satanic combination has wrested control of the Government. Their goal is to control the whole planet and enslave all mankind.

The United States was established by honorable men who were inspired by God. Yes there was bloodshed but it was done in a righteous fight for freedom and liberty. Freedom from the very men who have taken control again.

America's destiny is to be the host nation of the Kingdom of God. The plans of the men who control America now will come to naught. Another even more brutal regime will rise up and control the rest of the world. On the American continent Zion will be established and righteousness will reign. A glorious future indeed!

[Jason]

We have to get things in perspective.

Yes the current United States is a brutal empire which destroys the lives of many. As prophesied in the Book of Mormon (Ether 8) a terrible satanic combination has wrested control of the Government. Their goal is to control the whole planet and enslave all mankind.

The United States was established by honorable men who were inspired by God. Yes there was bloodshed but it was done in a righteous fight for freedom and liberty. Freedom from the very men who have taken control again.

America's destiny is to be the host nation of the Kingdom of God. The plans of the men who control America now will come to naught. Another even more brutal regime will rise up and control the rest of the world. On the American continent Zion will be established and righteousness will reign. A glorious future indeed!

Amen....glorious bright light at the end of the tunnel....just gotta get there!!!

[BlueMoon5]

900 military bases in 176 nations

and with that gold i will buy armies, and navies

oppress, terror

vietnam - carpet bombing with B-52s, Napalm,
afghanistan- we will bomb you back to the stone age
iraq- shock and awe baby, terrorising an entire country. white phospherous and depleted uranium
all over- #1 supplier of arms and land mines
#1 supplier of cluster munitions
#1 user of D.E & white phospherous

but yes, the USA is decreed by god to destroy the original inhabitants
yes, 1492 was the only way the pilgrims were ever going to get on a ship and land 6000miles in a different hemispere, yes, it was the only way

your country is born in blood, it is bred in blood, it is drowning in blood
your anthem is about blood and its bombs
you are jingoists of the worst kind
you terrorise the world, fund israel which is another terrorist nation

china was internal
stalin likewise- although ukraine was not
you even genocided 10 million indians
your people slaughtered 40 million bison so the indians couldnt eat or stay warm and would die
your people murdered a prophet and decreed death on the saints
i have no idea why anyone would defend this "america"
the constitution maybe, a few amendments for sure (lets not ignore many of your rights are not found in the constitution but in the amendments- because it was imperfect)
aside from 1 or 2 comments about this glorious constitution by the church, including an early church struggling to define itself and reinforce that it was not seeking to overthrow the US govt while it was desperate to show support and patriotism, apart from that and a few ETB quotes aimed at protecting against creeping communism, i fail to understand why anyone would want to say it is anything other than the most brutal empire in history

it used a nuclear weapon for goodness sake
the atom bomb. on innocent people
over 100,000 murdered in a blink of an eye
TWICE
D.U- it is still doing it today
is it any wonder why we went West? it was a FORCED march

now, your country has the highest rate of incarceration, murder, homicide, rape, and shootings in the world

from teh top down and the bottom up, aside from a few poverty stricken cleetus' in the mid west, your country- like mine- is ripe for the picking
dont for a second think i dont know my country is any different, we are right there with you
the only difference is my coutnry is not an empire, and your country has 30 military bases in my country, our leaders know why shoes we have to lickspittle

43 millions of its citizens relying on food stamps for their ability to eat.
99% aint that the truth
kent state repeated over and over right now
there is a brutal side to all empires

That's quite a damning list, Aussie--tailor-made for your "hate America" mindset. Of course, there is another side to your list, isn't there? Hmmm. . .let's see:

1) Europe doesn't live under a dictatorship today. Do you suppose America had something to do with that?
2) Who rebuilt Europe post WWII? Ever hear of the Marshall Plan?
3) Thanks to America, South Korea isn't ruled by a half-crazed dictator who lives to the north (and who is starving his citizens to death).
4) More than a few Germans were saved by something called the Berlin Airlift. Do you know anything about that?
5) How many countries has America taken possession of as a result of the wars it has fought and won?
6) Is there any country in the world whose citizens donate more money to charitable causes than America?
7) What is your estimate of the number of lives that would have been lost (Japanese and U.S.) if America had undertaken a land invasion of Japan? Take into account the fact that a land invasion could have lasted months.
8) Are you aware of how the Japanese military treated U.S. prisoners of war? If you have the stomach for it, read Prisoners of the Japanese by Givan Daws.
9) Are you aware that the constitutions of several countries are modeled after America's "imperfect" Constitution?
10) Have you ever heard the expression "Freedom isn't free"? What do you suppose that means in terms of the use of weapons of war?

Just a few thoughts for you to ponder, Aussie

[AussieOi]

[quote="BlueMoon5"]
That's quite a damning list, Aussie--tailor-made for your "hate America" mindset. Of course, there is another side to your list, isn't there? Hmmm. . .let's see:

1) Europe doesn't live under a dictatorship today. Do you suppose America had something to do with that?
Major Jordan
Sealed train
irrelevant anyway

2) Who rebuilt Europe post WWII? Ever hear of the Marshall Plan?
was a good thing for sure
not to ignore who funded Hitler, but Marshall was 1% of GDP over 4 years
5% came back as an administration fee, and a lot of a loan
lets not forget the idea was to dismantle industry, which both the UK and Germany had to do

3) Thanks to America, South Korea isn't ruled by a half-crazed dictator who lives to the north (and who is starving his citizens to death).
irrelevant

4) More than a few Germans were saved by something called the Berlin Airlift. Do you know anything about that?
irrelevant, we're talking about today, and all my criticisms in relation to foreign policy (cough, "Empire")of USA are post Korea

5) How many countries has America taken possession of as a result of the wars it has fought and won?
this is not how you do business
but really, about 150.
Tell me again, your 1000 miliary bases, how many French or German or Australian ones are in your country again?


6) Is there any country in the world whose citizens donate more money to charitable causes than America?
the rest of the world is laughing at you here



7) What is your estimate of the number of lives that would have been lost (Japanese and U.S.) if America had undertaken a land invasion of Japan? Take into account the fact that a land invasion could have lasted months.
japan was already devastated
doesnt excuse the satanic act of an atomic bomb






8) Are you aware of how the Japanese military treated U.S. prisoners of war? If you have the stomach for it, read Prisoners of the Japanese by Givan Daws.
Australians, British, Dutch, Thais, New Zealanders, Canadians, Papue Nuew Gineans likewise are shaking your head at your ignorance here



9) Are you aware that the constitutions of several countries are modeled after America's "imperfect" Constitution?


hey i can only WISH to have the freedoms enshrined in your bill of rights
but that others adopt a document ignored by your own legislative, executive and judiciary means nothing abot what your empire is or isn't


10) Have you ever heard the expression "Freedom isn't free"? What do you suppose that means in terms of the use of weapons of war?

Is this Darth Vadar kind of freedom you are referring to?
the US is well experienced in ensuring its someone else who pays the price of their freedom
Smedley Butler, your military are just gullible fools

[BlueMoon5]

That's quite a damning list, Aussie--tailor-made for your "hate America" mindset. Of course, there is another side to your list, isn't there? Hmmm. . .let's see:

1) Europe doesn't live under a dictatorship today. Do you suppose America had something to do with that?

: irrelevant anyway[/color]

Irrelevant? In other words, you have no rational response.

2) Who rebuilt Europe post WWII? Ever hear of the Marshall Plan?

: was a good thing for sure

lets not forget the idea was to dismantle industry, which both the UK and Germany had to do

Hmmm. . .you say below that we're talking about today

3) Thanks to America, South Korea isn't ruled by a half-crazed dictator who lives to the north (and who is starving his citizens to death).

: irrelevant

You might want to ask thousands (upon thousands) of starving North Koreans about that.

4) More than a few Germans were saved by something called the Berlin Airlift. Do you know anything about that?

:irrelevant, we're talking about today, and all my criticisms in relation to foreign policy (cough, "Empire")of USA are post Korea

You seem a tad confused. You titled this thread "The most brutal empire in history.

5) How many countries has America taken possession of as a result of the wars it has fought and won?

: this is not how you do business

Which is to our credit.

: but really, about 150.

I see.

: Tell me again, your 1000 miliary bases, how many French or German or Australian ones are in your country again?

What are "miliary" bases? Do they have anything to do with hats?

6) Is there any country in the world whose citizens donate more money to charitable causes than America?

: the rest of the world is laughing at you here

Taken a survey, have you?

7) What is your estimate of the number of lives that would have been lost (Japanese and U.S.) if America had undertaken a land invasion of Japan? Take into account the fact that a land invasion could have lasted months.

: japan was already devastated

Thus use of the atomic bombs really didn't matter, huh?

8) Are you aware of how the Japanese military treated U.S. prisoners of war? If you have the stomach for it, read Prisoners of the Japanese by Givan Daws.

: Australians, British, Dutch, Thais, New Zealanders, Canadians, Papue Nuew Gineans likewise are shaking your head at your ignorance here

Did you mean to say shaking their heads? That aside, you obviously haven't read Prisoners of the Japanese--or anything comparable to it.

9) Are you aware that the constitutions of several countries are modeled after America's "imperfect" Constitution?

: hey i can only WISH to have the freedoms enshrined in your bill of rights
but that others adopt a document ignored by your own legislative, executive and judiciary means nothing abot what your empire is or isn't

Our Constitution is "ignored by all three branches of our government," huh? You overreach grievously, which isn't a good thing for your credibility.


10) Have you ever heard the expression "Freedom isn't free"? What do you suppose that means in terms of the use of weapons of war?

: the US is well experienced in ensuring its someone else who pays the price of their freedom

You would do well to visit the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial in France. Its 172.5 acres contains the graves of 9,387 U.S. men and women who paid the ultimate price.

[AussieOi]

war was war
there's no point arguing over who gace more, who died more
the gadiantons extracted a price from all nations
perhaps i can add words like Ypres, Somme, Paaschendale, Gallipoli, Verdun to the list
Bearing in mind it had been going 1939, 1940, 1941 before the US entered
Ditto 1914, 1915, 1916, and 1917
but this is besides
in both instances correct we would have been under ruthless dictators had the US not entered on the Allies side
but this is about the US empire today
I am sure King Noah had a good foreign policy as well

[Jason]

You would do well to visit the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial in France. Its 172.5 acres contains the graves of 9,387 U.S. men and women who paid the ultimate price.

The question is.....What did they pay the ultimate price for???

Was it to secure Eastern Europe for the Communists? Operation Keelhaul, Lend-Lease, Operation Gladio, etc, etc etc....

58,178 US soldiers payed the ultimate price in Vietnam.....What did they pay the ultimate price for???

Was it to enrich the military industrial complex created by Eisenhower (Lady Bird Johnson Trust)? First US war with sole-source suppliers....

I could go on and on about Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. How about the most recent - Libya?

















The mass pro-Gaddafi street demonstration of one million Libyans held in the capital Tripoli has gone unreported by Western media as has news of civilians killed for the past three months.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/185602.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Over the last six months, NATO has flown 24,682 sorties over Libya including 9,204 strike sorties. That's when a military jet actually drops a bomb on something. The mission has lasted 195 days to date (the October 2nd NATO statistics), so 9,204 strike sorties divided by 195 equals 47.21 bombing strikes PER DAY on Libya over the last six months. Nearly fifty bombing strikes per day for six months on a country with a population of Indiana. Imagine that.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/0 ... NATO-Bombs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If my paradigm is incorrect I would greatly appreciate correction!!! From my perspective this looks like a rehash of Operation AJAX on steroids....notice the similarities between Libya, Cuba, Iran, etc.....all of whom nationalized and protected their national resources for the benefit of the people versus allowing global organizations (WTO, GATA, WHO, World Bank, UN, IMF, etc), which were all created and initially funded by the US, to rape and pillage their countries.


Who is ultimately to blame? Is it not the American people that supported such actions via their elected representatives???

[BlueMoon5]

You would do well to visit the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial in France. Its 172.5 acres contains the graves of 9,387 U.S. men and women who paid the ultimate price.

The question is.....What did they pay the ultimate price for???

The answer re. the American dead at Normandy: To keep the Third Reich from taking over all of Europe--and beyond.

: Was it to secure Eastern Europe for the Communists? Operation Keelhaul, Lend-Lease, Operation Gladio, etc, etc etc....

Of course not.

: 58,178 US soldiers payed the ultimate price in Vietnam.....What did they pay the ultimate price for???

You and I rarely agree, but we never should have gotten involved in Vietnam. What a tragic, senseless waste of human life and treasure.

: Was it to enrich the military industrial complex created by Eisenhower (Lady Bird Johnson Trust)? First US war with sole-source suppliers....

I don't know, but I suspect that you don't know either. Is there conspiracy "literature" that postulates an affirmative answer to your question. Yes, reams of it.

: I could go on and on about Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. How about the most recent - Libya?

We should intervene militarily only when U. S. interests are truly in jeopardy, and the mission is clearly defined (sounds like something Ron Paul would say). We can no longer afford to be policeman to the world. I do think (not quite as cynical as you) that in some cases our intentions have been good, but good intentions are not sufficient. The idea, for example, that we can create democratic governments in the Middle East is both naive and stupid. Libya has already implemented sharia law.

: The mass pro-Gaddafi street demonstration of one million Libyans held in the capital Tripoli has gone unreported by Western media as has news of civilians killed for the past three months.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/185602.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: Over the last six months, NATO has flown 24,682 sorties over Libya including 9,204 strike sorties. That's when a military jet actually drops a bomb on something. The mission has lasted 195 days to date (the October 2nd NATO statistics), so 9,204 strike sorties divided by 195 equals 47.21 bombing strikes PER DAY on Libya over the last six months. Nearly fifty bombing strikes per day for six months on a country with a population of Indiana. Imagine that.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/0 ... NATO-Bombs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: If my paradigm is incorrect I would greatly appreciate correction!!! From my perspective this looks like a rehash of Operation AJAX on steroids....notice the similarities between Libya, Cuba, Iran, etc.....all of whom nationalized and protected their national resources for the benefit of the people versus allowing global organizations (WTO, GATA, WHO, World Bank, UN, IMF, etc), which were all created and initially funded by the US, to rape and pillage their countries.

Excellent points.

: Who is ultimately to blame? Is it not the American people that supported such actions via their elected representatives???

In some cases there was not a formal declaration of war; the president unilaterally acted militarily--a clear violation of Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution; as you know, Congess alone has the power to declare war. But inasmuch as the American people elect not just their congressional representatives, but also their president, your statement cannot be disputed.

[Jason]

You would do well to visit the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial in France. Its 172.5 acres contains the graves of 9,387 U.S. men and women who paid the ultimate price.

The question is.....What did they pay the ultimate price for???

The answer re. the American dead at Normandy: To keep the Third Reich from taking over all of Europe--and beyond.

....but large American corporations funded and helped create the Third Reich.....so that isn't what they died for. Next?

Was it to secure Eastern Europe for the Communists? Operation Keelhaul, Lend-Lease, Operation Gladio, etc, etc etc....

Of course not.

So those items mentioned above as well as the facts regarding Eisenhower screwing around in the south of France and delaying the war for nearly a year as well as the efforts to stop the advance of General Patton....even as late as April 10, 1945 at Mulde River....in order to give the Soviets more time.....as well as Eisenhower just plain giving it all away in the Yalta agreement....have no bearing or basis?????

58,178 US soldiers payed the ultimate price in Vietnam.....What did they pay the ultimate price for???

You and I rarely agree, but we never should have gotten involved in Vietnam. What a tragic, senseless waste of human life and treasure.

Why did it happen? It started with a false flag, "The Tonkin incident", as well as the direct result of actions taken by Lindon Johnson on the Monday following JFK's assassination by the CIA.

Was it to enrich the military industrial complex created by Eisenhower (Lady Bird Johnson Trust)? First US war with sole-source suppliers....

I don't know, but I suspect that you don't know either. Is there conspiracy "literature" that postulates an affirmative answer to your question. Yes, reams of it.

Maybe you should find out....do you know anything about the Lady Bird Johnson Trust?

I could go on and on about Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. How about the most recent - Libya?

We should intervene militarily only when U. S. interests are truly in jeopardy, and the mission is clearly defined (sounds like something Ron Paul would say). We can no longer afford to be policeman to the world. I do think (not quite as cynical as you) that in some cases our intentions have been good, but good intentions are not sufficient. The idea, for example, that we can create democratic governments in the Middle East is both naive and stupid. Libya has already implemented sharia law.

How do you define "U.S. interests"? The interests of you and I? The interests of global corporations?

Who cares about what we can and can't afford.....more specifically - Who made us the policeman of the world???

When have "our" intentions been good? With regard to what engagement?

The mass pro-Gaddafi street demonstration of one million Libyans held in the capital Tripoli has gone unreported by Western media as has news of civilians killed for the past three months.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/185602.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Over the last six months, NATO has flown 24,682 sorties over Libya including 9,204 strike sorties. That's when a military jet actually drops a bomb on something. The mission has lasted 195 days to date (the October 2nd NATO statistics), so 9,204 strike sorties divided by 195 equals 47.21 bombing strikes PER DAY on Libya over the last six months. Nearly fifty bombing strikes per day for six months on a country with a population of Indiana. Imagine that.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/0 ... NATO-Bombs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If my paradigm is incorrect I would greatly appreciate correction!!! From my perspective this looks like a rehash of Operation AJAX on steroids....notice the similarities between Libya, Cuba, Iran, etc.....all of whom nationalized and protected their national resources for the benefit of the people versus allowing global organizations (WTO, GATA, WHO, World Bank, UN, IMF, etc), which were all created and initially funded by the US, to rape and pillage their countries.

Excellent points.

Yes I know.

Who is ultimately to blame? Is it not the American people that supported such actions via their elected representatives???

In some cases there was not a formal declaration of war; the president unilaterally acted militarily--a clear violation of Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution; as you know, Congess alone has the power to declare war. But inasmuch as the American people elect not just their congressional representatives, but also their president, your statement cannot be disputed.

Well since my statement cannot be disputed....aren't we due some justice or wrath?

Also haven't we been given more than most of the people who have existed in the world - Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence....and related government structures built upon them?

Yet are we not murdering people throughout the world (obviously against their will)....as what you call "the world's policeman"? I mean seriously what gives us the right to - "Nearly fifty bombing strikes per day for six months on a country with a population of Indiana."

Or depleted uranium munitions? Or atomic bombs? etc etc etc

You bring up the 9,387 lives lost at Normandy.....what about the 4-10 million lives of the men, women, and children who died as a result of Operation Keelhaul? Not to even mention the lies and direct betrayal of those who served and fought along side of us against the Nazi's? And how do you reconcile that with Operation Paperclip which brought the key Nazi's out and infiltrated them within the US government and the military industrial complex? Or how do you rationalize the testimony of Hugh Nibley regarding the lack of destruction of key Nazi munitions factories owned and controlled by interests in the US? Or the lack of prosecution (justice) regarding those traitorous acts when discovered (as well as the Business Plot)? If they could get away with that with the American people....why not JFK? Or Oklahoma City bombing? Or 9/11?

Is it not the most brutal empire one that pretends to be something different (calls itself good) yet in reality is a deep dark and wicked organization (group of people)? Or does it all revolve around "research merit" or "world's policeman" and can be justified before God???

MK ULTRA and Tuskegee, horrific as they were, did have some research merit. I'm not defending what happened, but the intent of both projects was to gather useful biomedical data. I assume the projects' inherent, gross violation of human rights was the reason they were kept secret.

What else has been kept secret???

[Oldemandalton]

But Watchman, What of the Night?


Bishop Vaughn J. Featherstone
Second Counselor in the Presiding Bishopric


I would like to bear a solemn and a sacred witness today to America and to the world that he to whom you have just listened, President Spencer W. Kimball, is a modern prophet of the only true living God. I know that, as I know that I am here before you this day.

There has been an increased concern about our country, about patriotism, and about integrity of national leaders by the youth of the Church. These concerns have led me to address this subject. Someone has said, “Though argument does not change belief, the lack of it destroys belief.”

Dr. Kenneth MacFarland, a great, nonpartisan, national patriot, gave a speech entitled “Selling America to Americans.” He told about a young soldier who returned from Vietnam. In a very serious talk with his parents, the young soldier asked if they loved America. He asked how they felt about this great and glorious nation. Both mother and father got a little teary-eyed and said that they loved this country dearly, that it was more precious to them than their own life. “Why didn’t you tell me that when I was growing up?” he said. “I never heard you once say that you loved America. You never taught me to love it. I can’t tell you what an ungrateful pup I have been. I had to go to Vietnam to find out what the United States of America is all about. I would gladly lay down my life for it. I would have given anything to know how you felt about it when I was growing up.”

Dr. MacFarland also told about a World War II veteran who had heard him speak. This veteran sat down at his kitchen table and wrote a longhand letter to Dr. MacFarland. He wrote, “My wife and I don’t have much. I doubt we will ever have enough money to travel outside of Arizona. I was a soldier in World War II and was taken prisoner. For two years we didn’t hear one bit of news as to how the war was going. In all those months I never lost faith,” he said, “and then one morning I saw the American flag and a band of soldiers coming over the hill. I don’t know if anyone can understand the love I felt for my country that day, and have all of my life. I felt the same way the other night when I heard you talk.” Then he wrote, “Dr. MacFarland, you’re quite a guy. You just stay in there laying them on the landing deck.”

All through Church history we have had a few who “lay them on the landing deck.” Moroni, the chief captain of all the Nephites, was such a man.

“And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.

“And he fastened on his headplate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land.” (Alma 46:12–13.)

What a contrast to the attitude of some of our liberals! Someone asked me once how I felt about amnesty for the draft card burner and the deserter. I told him that I thought every one of them should be taken before General Moroni to be judged. We need to feel again what it means to be a citizen of the United States of America. We need to feel the thrill and sensation and have the swellings within our bosom about this country. The priesthood of God should be an example of patriotism and loyalty to our country. As I talk about the United States of America, each one should consider his homeland, his flag, and his country. The scriptures give us a description of a great, great soul when they describe Moroni.

“And Moroni was a strong and a mighty man; he was a man of a perfect understanding; yea, a man that did not delight in bloodshed; a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his country, and his brethren from bondage and slavery;

“Yea, a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his God, for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people; a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people.

“Yea, and he was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and he had sworn with an oath to defend his people, his rights, and his country, and his religion, even to the loss of his blood.

“Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.” (Alma 48:11–13, 17.)

In a letter to Ammoron, a warmongering chief of the Lamanites, we catch more of the spirit of this great man. As President Lee would have said, he wasn’t a shrinking violet. There was no misunderstanding his message. It wasn’t watered down or diluted. He said to Ammoron:

“Behold, I would tell you somewhat concerning the justice of God, and the sword of his almighty wrath, which doth hang over you except ye repent and withdraw your armies into your own lands.

“Yea, I would tell you these things if ye were capable of hearkening unto them; yea, I would tell you concerning that awful hell that awaits to receive such murderers as thou.

“But as ye have rejected these things, and have fought against the people of the Lord, even so I may expect you will do it again.

“And now behold, we are prepared to receive you; yea, …

“As the Lord liveth, our armies shall come upon you except ye withdraw, and ye shall soon be visited with death, for we will retain our cities and our lands; yea, and we will maintain our religion and the cause of our God.

“I will come against you with my armies; yea, even I will arm my women and my children, and I will come against you, and I will follow you even into your own land, which is the land of our first inheritance; yea, and it shall be blood for blood, yea, life for life; and I will give you battle even until you are destroyed from off the face of the earth.

“Behold, I am in my anger, and also my people; ye have sought to murder us, and we have only sought to defend ourselves. But behold, if ye seek to destroy us more we will seek to destroy you.

“Now I close my epistle. I am Moroni, I am a leader of … the Nephites.” (Alma 54:6–10, 12–14.)

Behold, there was a leader!

Not too long ago I saw a movie entitled Tora! Tora! Tora! This film is about the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese. In one place in the movie the scene is a Japanese admiral standing on the captain’s deck of an aircraft carrier. The planes have already taken off for their sneak attack. The radio message is transmitted back to the bridge of the carrier that the bombing had commenced and that the United States was caught sleeping and flat-footed. The admiral turns and looks out to the ocean and then with a faraway look in his eyes, he says, “I fear lest we have awakened a sleeping giant with a terrible resolve.”

I think it is time we should all awaken. Our concern isn’t about the flames of freedom which burn so brightly in our generation; the concern is that in the upcoming generation the fire has never been kindled. Our youth have never known anything but criticism of the United States of America. We need some faithful, free-loving patriots who will issue forth a clear, loud trumpet call. Remember Paul’s counsel: “For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare … to the battle?” (1 Cor. 14:8.) Freedom ought to ring in the heart of every Latter-day Saint regardless of his country.

Conrad Hilton in 1951 gave the following in an address; I quote from a talk delivered at Brigham Young University by President Harold B. Lee. “Speaking of liberty, he said, ‘Man possesses human dignity because he is made in the image and likeness of God; it is this image that makes man different, that makes man a son of God. Without this image, man has no free will and frequently neither liberty nor the capacity for liberty.’ He further said, ‘In this struggle for freedom, at home and abroad, our greatest weapon, both a sword and a shield will be our love of and faith in God.’”

Mrs. C. Girard Davidson, a Portland, Oregon, housewife, stated the following before a Congressional committee: “The world may long remember … our generation as the last of the educated mind and the educated heart, so sensitive in understanding, so wretched over failures, so modest about our triumphs, so permissive with everyone who wanted to do his own thing that we let civilization go to hell without any curiosity about what would replace it.”

Rebecca West, the noted British author, who attributes current assaults on patriotism to a certain “sloppiness among intellectuals in mistaking patriotism for imperialism,” states: “I think the majority of your people are outside the argument and are behaving quite sanely. There are thousands in your universities, millions in your country who … love their country. This civilized way of behaving hardly rates a headline.”

This is true. Consider: “In the small, hard-to-read type of a Congressional committee report are listed men and women who chose to leave their estates to the United States with comments saying they were doing so in tribute to ‘this beloved country’ or ‘in appreciation of the freedom and liberty afforded to all citizens.’

“Sales of the flag are rising.

“The first American Negro general to command American infantry in combat returns from Viet Nam with unself-conscious tribute to the American dream: ‘This has been my one big chance to make it come true. I did my best.’

“The feelings that made a small handful create a nation that is the envy of the world have been nourished for nearly two centuries. They still exist.”

In Ether we read about this choice land:

“Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ.” (Ether 2:12.)

What a wonderful heritage we could leave to our youth if we could just kindle in them the fires of freedom that our fathers kindled in us. I love this great land; I honor the great founding fathers; I’m proud to be an American. I cannot sing “America” without tears coming to my eyes and without chills running up and down my back. When I stand with my hand over my heart and sing our national anthem, I’m so proud I can hardly stand it. When I think of all the noble men who gave their lives for this land, then I feel a sacred resolve well up within me and I know that we must stand fast.

We are the nation’s watchmen—no other people collectively love the Constitution and honor it and hold it as a divinely inspired document as do the Latter-day Saints. The duty of the watchman is to watch over and safeguard his people. And remember the thought-provoking question by President Harold B. Lee, “But watchman, what of the night?” As a generation of those who love this glorious country, we must ask ourselves, “But watchman, what of the night?” Have our youth enough of the fires of freedom kindled in them to withstand the darkness? We must teach them in our homes, churches, and schools. The sound must go across this land from one end to the other.

Now one final word about this great land. Emma Lazarus in these appropriate lines concerning the Statue of Liberty describes the migration from all lands to America:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”
(“The New Colossus,” Masterpieces of Religious Verse, New York: Harper & Brothers, 1948, pp. 517–18.)

The United States of America is the golden door. I bear my solemn and sacred witness that the United States of America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth. We ought to love it and we ought to talk about it. We need to be true, we need to have faith. If we do this, God will give us strength to brace against the winds. He will make this country like a giant pillar of granite. He will make us a mighty people, a pure people, a Christlike people, a worthy people, a free people. The Latter-day Saints bear witness and we know the witness is true that we have a modern prophet, that the Book of Mormon is a record of God’s dealings with people who had problems similar to the problems we have in this day. And they were a great people who loved this land and thus we find the course we must take in following in their footsteps. These things are true, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.