The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
Post Reply
Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by Ezra »

Do you belive God killed all those Americans in the civil war to free slaves?
More were killed In the war then there were slaves in America.

Lincoln disobeyed and walked all over the constitution during his presidency. Ignoring almost every aspect of it. Imprisioned with out charge or trial over 3000 Americans.

To me that does not sound like a man lead by God.


You still haven't answers my question. Do you need more commandments in order to live the principles of agency?

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Ezra wrote: (Where does God adress government like that?)
(Thou shalt not steal is written to the people)
Do you honestly think God has a separate set of rules for the government and for the people? Government is just another group of people. And neither justice nor God are a respecter of persons! "Thou shall not steal" applies equally to government and non-government. Indeed: "to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:48)
Ezra wrote: I'm not fighting aginst God. I am doing as the scriptures say. D&c 98 befriending the laws that are constitutional. Only.
Just like those who "befriended" the Bible by trampling down the Book of Mormon? Are you "befriending" the Constitution by preventing greater light, and truth, and justice from God, from being added to it, according to the amendment pattern that he himself placed into the Constitution? With such friends, who needs enemies!
Ezra wrote:So much so that I don't pay taxes. I don't partake in any socialistic programs. The government does not plunder from me. And everyone could be the same. If they to did as asked by not supporting unconstitutional laws.
But wouldn't you think it would have been easier to defend the people from the government if explicit prohibition against public taxation of private property (read against public violation of private property, a.k.a. against legalized plunder), was written into the Constitution? Why encourage plunder through uncertain and unclear law? God hates confusion, and is a God of order.
Ezra wrote:According to the word of God those who need commanded In all things will have no reward. Are you not pushing for more commandments. More laws?
Confusion out of you again. It is the government plunder that I seek to restrict, not the free exercise of religion and conscience by the people! Do you understand the difference? I am seeking to forbid injustice in the law, not the freedom of a man to do with his property as he will as long as he does not violate the property of another. In other words, I am proposing that Justice and Liberty be explicitly written into the law, to establish them, and not to destroy them. What do you have against Justice and Liberty?

You are like that man who says: "Let's not forbid murder in the law, because we would be intruding on the agency of the murderer." Don't you understand that a law that does not forbid injustice is no law at all? What about the intrusion on the agency of the victim? Would you rather violate the agency of the innocent? By allowing plunder/injustice in the law you are not promoting anyone's agency. In fact, by so doing you are destroying (or seeking to destroy) the agency of everyone.

Justice is agency. No justice = no agency. They are one.
Ezra wrote:I will ask again.
Do you( lov) need more laws in order to live gods constitutional and gosple principles of agency?
It is time that you learn, that the more laws from God we receive and live the better. That is according to his word:
  • And I give unto you a commandment, that ye shall forsake all evil and cleave unto all good, that ye shall live by every word which proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God. (Doctrine and Covenants 98:11)

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by Ezra »

Why won't you answer the question??

Answer it.


How am I befriending the constitution by preventing greater light.

I'm not restricting anything. God gives light. Not me. All I can do is teach his words. He can give it anytime he wants to the good or wicked and those who don't lisening. Or he will drop the matter altogether and let them suffer the consiquesnce.

More is given to those who listen.
I listen. And I'm not saying you don't.

I'm not confused about those who need to be commanded in all things having no reward.

That's scripture. It's simple knowledge.

I live d&c98:11

Laws of the land are not gods unless they are constitutional.
They are not constitutional just because they are part of the constitution.
One of those ammendements the 16th that I complain about is what gave the governement The power to tax the people directly that you are fighting aginst.

So again I don't see needing another ammendemt I see we need to go back to the way it was as created.
Last edited by Ezra on June 22nd, 2015, 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Ezra wrote:Do you belive God killed all those Americans in the civil war to free slaves?
More were killed In the war then there were slaves in America.

Lincoln disobeyed and walked all over the constitution during his presidency. Ignoring almost every aspect of it. Imprisioned with out charge or trial over 3000 Americans.

To me that does not sound like a man lead by God.
I agree. Lincoln did huge damage to the fabric of liberty in this country.
Ezra wrote:You still haven't answers my question. Do you need more commandments in order to live the principles of agency?
Yes. Because it is my choice. "If ye love me keep my commandments."

And I say it again: No justice = no agency.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Ezra wrote:How am I befriending the constitution by preventing greater light.
I'm not restricting anything.
Really? You seem to try to restrict more words of His from being added to the Constitution, according to the amendment pattern he placed in it. Is it not so? Are you for more of his words of justice to be added to the Constitution?
Ezra wrote:I'm not confused about those who need to be commanded in all things having no reward. That's scripture. It's simple knowledge.I live d&c98:11
I do not seek to command men in all things. That would be unjust. I only seek to forbid INJUSTICE which God himself forbade. Get it? Do you see the difference? I am simply forbidding aggressive violence of man against man; in other words, I am forbidding violation of private property, and nothing else.

That's all. Simple idea. And a true one. It comes from God himself.
Ezra wrote:Laws of the land are not gods unless they are constitutional.
They are not constitutional just because they are part of the constitution.
One of those ammendements the 16th that I complain about is what gave the governement The power to tax the people directly that you are fighting against.
Not true. The power to tax was written into the original Constitution. It's like writing into the Constitution the power to chop off people's heads, and forgetting to say that it is not to be done, except for murderers. The government has ZERO right to tax what it does not own. To tax what does not belong to you, is the very definition of plunder, even legalized plunder.
Ezra wrote:So again I don't see needing another ammendemt I see we need to go back to the way it was as created.
You don't see enough. We are trying to fix that here. ;)

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by Ezra »

It's in the darkness of men's own eyes they become lost lov.

How do you know I'm not doing as God asked me to do?
I am by the way.

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by Ezra »

True the constitution allows tax. But for a very limited purpose. And not directly. As long as the constitution is read correcrly.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Ezra wrote:True the constitution allows tax. But for a very limited purpose. And not directly. As long as the constitution is read correcrly.
Explicit prohibition against public taxation of private property is missing from the Constitution.

It doesn't matter whether such plunder of private property is "direct" or "indirect;" it is still plunder and violation of private property, and therefore evil by the very definition of the word.

Besides, the original Constitution also allowed excises (in addition to capitation taxes). In other words, the Congress could tax ANY activity it liked or didn't like. In fact, the very first bill the Congress passed laid a tax on riding in carriages. Does Congress own private carriages? No! Therefore it cannot tax them. The only thing public representative government can rightly tax is what they own (rightly control), and that is public property of their jurisdiction, and nothing else.

Thus they can rightly impose a use tax on such property (you use it you pay for it), and even then such taxation must be agreed to by the majority voice of the owners of the property, and must not violate any private property and share of ownership in the process.

Yes, the 16th amendment made it worse, by removing uniformity condition on taxation, but the root of the problem was firmly implanted in the original Constitution with its overly broad taxation clauses, which did not forbid public taxation (i.e. violation and plunder) of private property.

This is the weakness that we must fix in the Constitution, if it, and the country with it, are to survive and prosper.

It is a simple demand of Justice. You have no right to tax what you do not own.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Ezra wrote:It's in the darkness of men's own eyes they become lost lov.
Then you should chase the darkness away out of your own eyes, and out of your mind.
Ezra wrote:How do you know I'm not doing as God asked me to do?
I am by the way.
Because you speak error, and fight against that which is right and good. That's how I know, lov. :)

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by Ezra »

Talk about calling the kettle black.

Lov or should I bow down and grovel at your feet since you think your soooooooooo far above us petty humans And call you god.

Do you honestly think your that more intelligent then me??

You have refered to me as amonkey. And continue to speak and make comments about how I'm so incorrect.

Which just shows how pridefull you are.

The scripture then show how little you know.

Open your eyes. Your just like kmc. Who's argument always consists of your wrong. With nothing to back it up. Nothing to show with scripture how.

Are you hear to teach? Or belittle? To contend?

If your hear to teach. Teach kindly. No one listens to somone who looks down their noses at others.
If you don't have respect for those who sit in front of you. They won't respect what you have to say.

So what are you here for?

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Ezra wrote:Talk about calling the kettle black.

Lov or should I bow down and grovel at your feet since you think your soooooooooo far above us petty humans And call you god.

Do you honestly think your that more intelligent then me??
Really? That is not the issue here, is it? Your ignorance is.
Ezra wrote:You have refered to me as amonkey. And continue to speak and make comments about how I'm so incorrect.
I compared your behavior to that of a monkey to whom you cannot prove anything because it does not speak English; I did not call you monkey. And yes, you are incorrect. That's why we are here, to learn from each-other and from God.
Ezra wrote:Which just shows how pridefull you are.
Mirror please. Are you not prideful by rejecting the truth?
Ezra wrote:The scripture then show how little you know.
If by "you" you mean you, then I agree with you. It does show how litttle you know!
Ezra wrote:Open your eyes.
Please, do!
Ezra wrote:Your just like kmc. Who's argument always consists of your wrong.
Not sure what this means.
Ezra wrote:With nothing to back it up.
Scriptures, prophets, God, and reason is not enough for you? All that is "nothing" to you?
Ezra wrote:Nothing to show with scripture how.
You are like the guy who stares at the Sun and says it does not shine. Pathetic really.
Ezra wrote:Are you hear to teach? Or belittle? To contend?
To teach and to learn. You?
Ezra wrote:If your hear to teach. Teach kindly.
Ok. I agree with that. But I do not take kindly to you saying falsehoods about me.
Ezra wrote:No one listens to somone who looks down their noses at others.
True that. I agree.
Ezra wrote:If you don't have respect for those who sit in front of you. They won't respect what you have to say.
That is true. I am going to make extra effort to respect you. Thank you for the advice.
Ezra wrote:So what are you here for?
Please, see above.

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by Ezra »

The thing is lov. Is scriptures and prophet quotes have been given that say diffrent then what you are. You just ignor them and proceed as if they were not posted.

I'm looking at your side.

I can see what your trying to say.
I can see how why you think the way you do from the quotes you shared.

And like I pointed out the quotes from JS about the constitution that even his quote is aginst you. As he said the only "only". Which dose not include the large list of things you are trying it accomplish.

From my study of Scriptures and prophets I still say your misguided in your efforts. And I'm not alone. As scripture and quotes have shown by myself and others point out.

by saying my intelligence is less then yours. Or that I am ignorant compared to You. Really hurts your own credibility as having wisdom.

It's like the saying
It's best to be thought of as an idiot instead of open your mouth and remove all doubt.

We are all created equal by God. If you see me as being less then you .you are the one who is. Tell you open your eyes and see people as they truly are. We are all equal in gods eyes.
Capable of the same glory. Judging others is not our lot. When we judge others we place gods judgment on our head.
Please stop.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Ezra wrote:The thing is lov. Is scriptures and prophet quotes have been given that say diffrent then what you are. You just ignor them and proceed as if they were not posted.
False. I showed you by other scriptures that your interpretation was incorrect.
Ezra wrote:I'm looking at your side.

I can see what your trying to say.
I can see how why you think the way you do from the quotes you shared.

And like I pointed out the quotes from JS about the constitution that even his quote is aginst you. As he said the only "only". Which dose not include the large list of things you are trying it accomplish.
That "the only," meant that was the only thing he wanted to change at the time; it did not however mean that there cannot be or never will be any other things to be changed later.
Ezra wrote:From my study of Scriptures and prophets I still say your misguided in your efforts.
And you are wrong.
Ezra wrote:And I'm not alone.
Popularity is never a test of truth.
Ezra wrote:As scripture and quotes have shown by myself and others point out.
They point out the exact opposite, except you are too stubborn to understand it, or to think clearly.
Ezra wrote:by saying my intelligence is less then yours.
Never said that.
Ezra wrote:Or that I am ignorant compared to You.
On that point you are.
Ezra wrote:Really hurts your own credibility as having wisdom.
Not really. It is a fact of truth. Truth does not hurt wisdom but supports it.
Ezra wrote:It's like the saying
It's best to be thought of as an idiot instead of open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Think about that next time you write.
Ezra wrote:We are all created equal by God.
Yes.
Ezra wrote:If you see me as being less then you .you are the one who is.
Never said that, and never thought that. You assume incorrectly.
Ezra wrote:Tell you open your eyes and see people as they truly are. We are all equal in gods eyes. Capable of the same glory.
Yes.
Ezra wrote:Judging others is not our lot. When we judge others we place gods judgment on our head.
Please stop.
I don't judge you. I judge your words only. And they are incorrect in certain points of which we are speaking. Discussing that is the purpose of this forum. Isn't it?

Thanks.
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on June 23rd, 2015, 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by Ezra »

I belive your above statement shows more then anything eles you are here to belittle and contend.

I see you as my equal. You judge me as being sub human a monkey.

Why place gods judgement on your own head?

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Ezra wrote:I belive your above statement show more then anything eles you are here to belittle and contend.

I judge you as my equal. You judge me as being sub human a monkey.

Why place gods judgement on your own head?
Nop. Apparently you judged you a monkey. I didn't.
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on June 23rd, 2015, 11:55 am, edited 3 times in total.

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by Ezra »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:I belive your above statement show more then anything eles you are here to belittle and contend.

I judge you as my equal. You judge me as being sub human a monkey.

Why place gods judgement on your own head?
Nop. Apparently you judge you a monkey. I don't.
So are you now judge me of judgeing myslef? When will it end?

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Ezra wrote:So are you now judge me of judgeing myslef? When will it end?
Technically never, because we ALWAYS judge ourselves. This is how existence works.
"Men are their own judges and their own tormentors" -- Joseph Smith.

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by Ezra »

By choice. And you can choose not to judge yourself and others.

Humility is non judgement of others and self.

I'm learning to be non judgement. The lord teaches me all the time the depths of how much we judge eachother and ourselfs. It does no one a service.

Please stop.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Ezra wrote:By choice. And you can choose not to judge yourself and others.

Humility is non judgement of others and self.

I'm learning to be non judgement. The lord teaches me all the time the depths of how much we judge eachother and ourselfs. It does no one a service.

Please stop.
I am not judging you. You are judging you. So if someone needs to stop, it's you.

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by Ezra »

Lov we all know how it feels to be judged. Exspecially unrighitously.

I'm asking you to stop.


Bee Prepared
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2536

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by Bee Prepared »

And just where have you been Mr. FFA? ( I laugh at your new avatar, how are those selfies turning out?)

Image

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by freedomforall »

Bee Prepared wrote:
And just where have you been Mr. FFA? ( I laugh at your new avatar, how are those selfies turning out?) Not bad. I like the eyes, they remind me of pools........................cesspools. And the teeth, so............................yellow. But, hey, we all can't be perfect.

Image
The wife and I went to Bend Oregon for a few days to celebrate our twentieth wedding anniversary. The years seem to have flown by. I have 22 1/2 years of marriage to a former, female woman of the feminine persuasion, giving me a total of 42 1/2 years.
Flies sure are fun when you have the time. I mean, flies and time are sure fun. Or is it, time sure is fun when you have flies? Or, surely take time to have fun and flies. Oh,well.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by LoveIsTruth »

There is an important discussion going on with Jason here, which should have been better placed in this thread. Enjoy.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Post by LoveIsTruth »

The Truth About Politics
By Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.

Read full article
...
Our schools and media portray corporations as sinister, and government as benign. But who wouldn’t rather take a sales call from Norwegian Cruise Line than an audit demand from the Internal Revenue Service?

Or imagine if a corporation fabricated a web of untruths, used them as a pretext to launch a violent attack on a people that had never caused Americans any harm, and brought about as many as a million deaths and millions more internal and external refugees. That corporation would be broken up and never heard from again. It would be denounced ceaselessly until the end of time.

Now all those things did happen, but they were carried out by the state. And as we all know, there have been no repercussions for anyone. No one has been punished. In fact, the perpetrators earn six-figure speaking fees. The whole thing is shrugged off as at worst an honest mistake. Some people are still outraged about it, but even they seem to take for granted that there’s really nothing that can be done about behavior like this on the part of the American regime.

Imagine there were a corporation that was somehow so entrenched that despite being responsible for a staggering death toll, it evaded all responsibility and simply carried on as before. The outrage would be deafening and overwhelming.

But so relentless has been the propaganda, ever since all of us were children, about the state’s benign nature that many people simply cannot bring themselves to think as badly about the state as they have been taught to think about corporations – even though the crimes of the state put to shame all the misdeeds of all existing corporations put together. Meanwhile, opponents of the state are routinely portrayed as incorrigible misanthropes, when in fact, in light of the state’s true nature, we are mankind’s greatest advocates.

...

Think for a moment just about this last claim: that government employees are our servants. These people staff an institution that decides how much of our income and wealth to expropriate in order to fund itself. They will imprison us if we do not pay. And we are to believe that these people are our servants?

For those not gullible enough to fall for such a transparent canard, the rationales become mildly more sophisticated. All right, all right, the state may say, it’s not quite right to say that the people govern themselves. But, they hasten to add, we can offer the next best thing: the people will be represented by individuals chosen from among them.

As Gerard Casey has argued, though, the idea of political representation is not meaningful. When an agent represents a business owner in a negotiation, he ensures that the owers’s interests are pursued. If the owners’s interests are defended only weakly, ignored, or downright defied, the owner chooses different representation.

None of this bears any resemblance to political representation. Here, a so-called representative is chosen by some people but actively opposed by others. Yet he is said to “represent” all of them. But how can this be, when he can’t possibly know them all, and even if he did, he’d discover they have mutually exclusive views and priorities?

Even if we focus entirely on those people who did vote for the representative, is their vote supposed to imply consent to his every decision? Some of them may have voted for him not for his positions or merits, but simply because he was less bad than the alternative. Others may have chosen him for one or two of his stances, but may be indifferent or hostile on everything else. How can even these people – who actually voted for the representative – seriously be said to be “represented” by him?

But the idea of political representation, while meaningless, is not without its usefulness to the modern state. It helps to conceal the brute fact that, despite all the talk about “popular rule” and “governing ourselves,” even the “free societies” of the West amount to some people ruling, and others being ruled.

When the results are announced tonight amid cheers and celebration, then, remember what it all represents: the triumph of compulsion over cooperation, coercion over freedom, and propaganda over truth. The civics textbooks may write with breathless awe about the American political system, but this is by far the worst thing about the US. Rather than celebrate the antisocial world of politics, let us raise a glass to the anti-politics of the free market, which has yielded more wealth and prosperity through peace and cooperation than the state and its politicians could with all the coercion in the world.

Post Reply