The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Discussion of principles relating to God's Law, Agency, Freedom, Liberty, the US constitution, and the Proper Role of Government.
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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:43 am

Ezra wrote:I'm not the one trying to do something different then what joseph smith said.
Yes you are, because you said there cannot and should not be any changes to the Constitution, and Joseph Smith wanted to change it. (But stubborn people did not listen to him at the time :) ). It did not change the truth though.

Ezra wrote:And no I dont think I do.
You can think whatever you want. It does not change the facts.

Ezra wrote:What your preaching is not what the scriptures and prophets teach.
Prove it.

Ezra wrote:Why post the same thing over and over without you listening to it????
Indeed. Ask yourself this question please. :)

Ezra wrote:Ffa posted what john Taylor said about leaving the constitution unadulterated.
Do you think additional words of God adulterate or pollute the Constitution? Do you think that the Book of Mormon adulterated the Bible? Of those who think that God says: "O fools" (2 Nephi 29:4-14).

Ezra wrote:"I have faith that the Constitution will be saved as prophesied by Joseph Smith. It will be saved by the righteous citizens of this nation who love and cherish freedom. It will be saved by enlightened members of this Church—among others—men and women who understand and abide the principles of the Constitution."
To save the Constitution is to change it. If it is not improved, it will die: "and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have." (2 Nephi 28:29, 30)

Ezra wrote:"I reverence the Constitution of the United States as a sacred document. To me its words are akin to the revelations of God, for God has placed His stamp of approval upon it."
He also placed His stamp of approval upon improving it according to his words, because he made the Constitution amendable.

Ezra wrote:"I testify that the God of heaven sent some of His choicest spirits to lay the foundation of this government, and He has now sent other choice spirits to help preserve it."
And to improve it, according to the words of God.

Ezra wrote:Choice spirit to preserve it. Preserve, not change.
To preserve is to change. To preserve you God has to change or improve you.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:42 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
freedomforall wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:Gods principles = use force for justice/defense + use persuasion for everything else.

Proof from scripture:

    But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.(Alma 42:22)


This scripture does not say what you think it does with regard to the laws of the land and forced adherence. This scriptures is talking about the fact that if we do not change our ways, repent and seek Christ and his ways, mercy cannot take effect and we will be taken by Satan and dragged to hell, which is, by the way, the justice of God. If we do not repent justice will take full effect because we are sinners and the default setting for sinners is hell and damnation. IF God were to save us in our sins he would cease to be God. God allows not one sin to enter into his Kingdom. These things are also in the scriptures. We cannot twist the meaning of scriptures just so we can justify our own ambitions.
God uses force to protect his property. Will you deny this? He sets a huge fire so no one can get through if that's what you mean.

    And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations; for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them. (3 Nephi 9:9)
This proves that God uses force to defend his property.

I said something a while back that I realize isn't true. I said that God does not use force. In that I err. Lucifer and his followers were cast out of heaven by force. I don't think it can be considered as force, however, that keeps people from entering his kingdom uninvited. A wicked person would wither and shrink from the power of God's presence. So I think it is more of a warning than force. A person cannot dwell where he isn't used or accustomed to living...because God's power is so intense.
One can set up a stop sign, but one cannot place an armed guard there to enforce the stopping of cars. In that one would rob someone of their free agency. But if one teaches a person to come to a stop at stop signs, and if the driver obeys the law of his own free will, then force is not required in the first place. Willing obedience to law is much better than forcing others to obey. God does not force us to keep his commandments, but he has some steep penalties for disobedience.
None of us can become like god without our participation in the art of obedience to laws.. Force is not teaching anyone how to use free will to exercise free agency. This is why God is looking for those who "are willing to" obey, just like in the Sacramental prayer.
When Christ comes to reign he isn't going to force anyone to live right...rather, he is just flat out going to destroy those that used their free agency to choose evil. This is called wreaked with the Wrath of God, right?
GUESS WHO

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

To the very best of my recollection...I don't remember!

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:31 pm

To preseve a Forrest do you cut it down?
Do you burn it?
No.
You put up a sign saying stay out. Or a fence. Or you raise up a watch tower and man it.

43 And now, I will show unto you a parable, that you may know my will concerning the redemption of Zion.

44 A certain nobleman had a spot of land, very choice; and he said unto his servants: Go ye unto my vineyard, even upon this very choice piece of land, and plant twelve olive trees;

45 And set watchmen round about them, and build a tower, that one may overlook the land round about, to be a watchman upon the tower, that mine olive trees may not be broken down when the enemy shall come to spoil and take upon themselves the fruit of my vineyard.

46 Now, the servants of the nobleman went and did as their lord commanded them, and planted the olive trees, and built a hedge round about, and set watchmen, and began to build a tower.

47 And while they were yet laying the foundation thereof, they began to say among themselves: And what need hath my lord of this tower?

48 And consulted for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace?

49 Might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need of these things.

50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.

51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees.

52 Now, behold, the nobleman, the lord of the vineyard, called upon his servants, and said unto them, Why! what is the cause of this great evil?

53 Ought ye not to have done even as I commanded you, and—after ye had planted the vineyard, and built the hedge round about, and set watchmen upon the walls thereof—built the tower also, and set a watchman upon the tower, and watched for my vineyard, and not have fallen asleep, lest the enemy should come upon you?

54 And behold, the watchman upon the tower would have seen the enemy while he was yet afar off; and then ye could have made ready and kept the enemy from breaking down the hedge thereof, and saved my vineyard from the hands of the destroyer.

55 And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry;

56 And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; for it is mine; I have bought it with money.

57 Therefore, get ye straightway unto my land; break down the walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen.

58 And inasmuch as they gather together against you, avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with the residue of mine house and possess the land.

D&c101 just prior to claiming gods authorship of the constitution. Gods hedge.







If we had raised the tower (scriptures) As commanded. We would have seen the enemy far off coming to tear down the hedge (constitution)

Ohh here comes those secret combanations. They just took out the jaraeites. And nephites. Now they are coming for us.

But no. We allowed them to destroy the hedge(contitution) and posses the land.

Changing the hedge won't get rid of the invaders. Your persuit is misguided.
Changing the hedge wont keep them from tearing it down again.
We must build up the tower. The teaching and preaching and knowing the word of God to bring a conversion to the gosple.

Aren't parables cool. Only those who are ready to hear it will. I hope your ready.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:11 pm

freedomforall wrote:I said something a while back that I realize isn't true. I said that God does not use force. In that I err. Lucifer and his followers were cast out of heaven by force.
Yes. Correct.

freedomforall wrote:I don't think it can be considered as force, however, that keeps people from entering his kingdom uninvited. A wicked person would wither and shrink from the power of God's presence. So I think it is more of a warning than force. A person cannot dwell where he isn't used or accustomed to living...because God's power is so intense.
Correct.

However here on earth, he uses force to destroy the wicked. I can give hundreds of examples of that from the scriptures.

freedomforall wrote:One can set up a stop sign, but one cannot place an armed guard there to enforce the stopping of cars. In that one would rob someone of their free agency.
False. If you own the road, you can set up a stop sign, and an armed guard to enforce it. Because it is your property. Defense of property does not rob one of his free agency, but reasserts free agency, because violation of private property is a violation of freedom of choice. And defence of private property is defence of free agency. So you are profoundly wrong. I say it again defense of property reasserts free agency (freedom of choice), and violation of property violates free agency. So you got it exactly wrong.

freedomforall wrote:Willing obedience to law is much better than forcing others to obey.

You are confused again. Willing obedience to law of justice is indeed much better for the one who considers to violate it. Using force to defend your property is your God given right.

You are profoundly confusing defensive and aggressive use of force. One is ALWAYS justified, the other is ALWAYS wrong. Please learn the difference.

Example: using force to coerce people into doing or not doing something, when that action or non-action, did not violate your property, is wrong, because it is aggressive violence. It is not defense, and therefore is unjust.

Defence is the use of equal and opposite force, to neutralize/offset the aggression of another, and is ALWAYS justified before God.

freedomforall wrote:God does not force us to keep his commandments, but he has some steep penalties for disobedience.
Penalties is force by definition. God sometimes postpones penalties/force, to give people time to repent.

freedomforall wrote:None of us can become like god without our participation in the art of obedience to laws..
Correct.

freedomforall wrote:Force is not teaching anyone how to use free will to exercise free agency.
Wrong. Defensive force is doing precisely that.

Aggressive force, however, (the opposite) of defensive force, is contrary to the plan of God, and is the definition of evil.

freedomforall wrote:This is why God is looking for those who "are willing to" obey, just like in the Sacramental prayer.
Right.

freedomforall wrote:When Christ comes to reign he isn't going to force anyone to live right...rather, he is just flat out going to destroy those that used their free agency to choose evil... right?
Wrong. He will use force, and if necessary destroy the wicked (aggressors against his property) if they do not repent. God uses force to defend and protect his property. People have a choice either not to defile/violate his property, or be forced off of it.

Yes God uses force, but it is ALWAYS defensive force, because aggressive force is the definition of evil.

Learn the difference. It is an absolute key. It is the very difference between good and evil, and you do not understand it.

Good = private property.
Justice = non-violation of private property.
Evil/Injustice = violation of private property.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:50 pm

Ezra wrote:To preseve a Forrest do you cut it down?
Do you burn it?
No.
If you plant more beautiful trees, and remove termite colonies that eat the trees, would you say that it is inconsistent with preserving it? No.
Ezra wrote:Changing the hedge won't get rid of the invaders. Your persuit is misguided.
Changing the hedge wont keep them from tearing it down again.
We must build up the tower. The teaching and preaching and knowing the word of God to bring a conversion to the gosple.
The tower are the correct explicit principles of liberty that were MISSING from the Constitution. That's why the Constitution got destroyed. "Aren't parables cool?"

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:04 am

Ezra wrote:Aren't parables cool. Only those who are ready to hear it will. I hope your ready.

It all depends on whose version I accept. Yours is not a strong enough case for anyone to consider. To many flaws. A man's ideas mingled with scripture. If you said to others "I wish this or that, or "I would like to see it this way" this could be acceptable. But to say you're going to change things is not likely going to happen. If you're seeking followers for this self willed endeavor, maybe you're on the wrong forum. Besides. someone could start a thread in direct opposition to this one. Then where would you be? You know, do it this way, no, do it this way, back and forth, back and forth. Samoe, samoe.
GUESS WHO

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

To the very best of my recollection...I don't remember!

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:49 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
freedomforall wrote:I said something a while back that I realize isn't true. I said that God does not use force. In that I err. Lucifer and his followers were cast out of heaven by force.
Yes. Correct.

freedomforall wrote:I don't think it can be considered as force, however, that keeps people from entering his kingdom uninvited. A wicked person would wither and shrink from the power of God's presence. So I think it is more of a warning than force. A person cannot dwell where he isn't used or accustomed to living...because God's power is so intense.
Correct.

However here on earth, he uses force to destroy the wicked. I can give hundreds of examples of that from the scriptures.

freedomforall wrote:One can set up a stop sign, but one cannot place an armed guard there to enforce the stopping of cars. In that one would rob someone of their free agency.
False. If you own the road, you can set up a stop sign, and an armed guard to enforce it. Because it is your property. Defense of property does not rob one of his free agency, but reasserts free agency, because violation of private property is a violation of freedom of choice. And defence of private property is defence of free agency. So you are profoundly wrong. I say it again defense of property reasserts free agency (freedom of choice), and violation of property violates free agency. So you got it exactly wrong. Only in your mind. Plenty of people would not agree with you, therefore, you're only right in your own mind. You need to accept this fact. Like I said, if you want a following, try a forum where people don't know any better than to be suckered into believing things your way. Too many flaws.

freedomforall wrote:Willing obedience to law is much better than forcing others to obey.

You are confused again. Only in your mind, pal. Quit pretending to know me. Willing obedience to law of justice is indeed much better for the one who considers to violate it. Using force to defend your property is your God given right. If I own land, can I cut down any Blooming Idiot plants growing on it?

You are profoundly confusing defensive and aggressive use of force. One is ALWAYS justified, the other is ALWAYS wrong. Please learn the difference. I need a much better, more qualified teacher. Your ideas do not set well with people. Talk about confusion.

Example: using force to coerce people into doing or not doing something, when that action or non-action, did not violate your property, is wrong, because it is aggressive violence. It is not defense, and therefore is unjust.

Defence is the use of equal and opposite force, to neutralize/offset the aggression of another, and is ALWAYS justified before God.

freedomforall wrote:God does not force us to keep his commandments, but he has some steep penalties for disobedience.
Penalties is force by definition. WRONG, just plain wrong. God sometimes postpones penalties/force, to give people time to repent.

freedomforall wrote:None of us can become like god without our participation in the art of obedience to laws..
Correct.

freedomforall wrote:Force is not teaching anyone how to use free will to exercise free agency.
Wrong. Defensive force is doing precisely that. What's this got to do with forcing people to obey laws of the land. Again, talk about confusion. Also there is no logic or good reasoning in the thing you propose.

Aggressive force, however, (the opposite) of defensive force, is contrary to the plan of God, and is the definition of evil.

freedomforall wrote:This is why God is looking for those who "are willing to" obey, just like in the Sacramental prayer.
Right. If I am right, and I am, then why forced obedience to law? This is just plain weird.

freedomforall wrote:When Christ comes to reign he isn't going to force anyone to live right...rather, he is just flat out going to destroy those that used their free agency to choose evil... right?
Wrong. He will use force, and if necessary destroy the wicked (aggressors against his property) if they do not repent. Weird, I just said the same thing, and you denied it and said I am wrong. Make up your mind already. You just admitted you are wrong. God uses force to defend and protect his property. People have a choice either not to defile/violate his property, or be forced off of it. So if you want to force people to obey laws, then what type of force do you initiate? What kind of penalties? Are you just going to shoot them?

Yes God uses force, but it is ALWAYS defensive force, because aggressive force is the definition of evil. Does aggressive force include punching someone out for not obeying? Or shooting them for looking at you in a way you didn't like after you said stop?

Learn the difference. I do know the difference, this is the whole point. I flat out think your ways are too out of lineIt is an absolute key. It is the very difference between good and evil, and you do not understand it. Don't start this crap again mister. Do you understand this much?

Good = private property.
Justice = non-violation of private property.
Evil/Injustice = violation of private property.

Only in your mind, only in your mind. Got that? Don't go back into the I know more than you do routine. All you most likely will do is tick somebody off. Then they just might resort to aggressive defense, verbally. Then where will you be...no further ahead than you are now, and that's not saying much.

Do not tell people they are wrong or don't understand when the real problem lies within you. You have this attitude that it is your way or no way. You refuse to really hear anyone elses ideas or knowledge. Maybe you need to read the book, How To Make Friends and Influence People. Then people can have a much more friendly conversation without fear of being called stupid, in so many words.
GUESS WHO

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

To the very best of my recollection...I don't remember!

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:23 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:To preseve a Forrest do you cut it down?
Do you burn it?
No.
If you plant more beautiful trees, and remove termite colonies that eat the trees, would you say that it is inconsistent with preserving it? No.
Ezra wrote:Changing the hedge won't get rid of the invaders. Your persuit is misguided.
Changing the hedge wont keep them from tearing it down again.
We must build up the tower. The teaching and preaching and knowing the word of God to bring a conversion to the gosple.
The tower are the correct explicit principles of liberty that were MISSING from the Constitution. That's why the Constitution got destroyed. "Aren't parables cool?"


who said anything about termites??? And why would you replace a forest God created with trees that (you) think are more beautiful.
You see the problem there don't you. God created nature to ballance itself out.
Look at the massive forest fires we have now due to fighting forest fires.
Nature would have balanced itself but we stepped in the way to do what we thought best. And have created a bigger problem.
Plant those trees. And a new bug that likes those trees kills the entire forest. Take our those termites the forest gets over grown crowded becomes weak and dies.
Men's ways are not gods.

And the tower is the scriptures. That warned from afar to the dangers of the attack of the secret combanations to both the nephites and jaradites.

The Book of Mormon narrative is a chronicle of nations long since gone. But in its descriptions of the problems of today’s society, it is as current as the morning newspaper and much more definitive, inspired, and inspiring concerning the solutions of those problems.
I know of no other writing which sets forth with such clarity the tragic consequences to societies that follow courses contrary to the commandments of God. Its pages trace the stories of two distinct civilizations that flourished on the Western Hemisphere. Each began as a small nation, its people walking in the fear of the Lord. But with prosperity came growing evils. The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and scheming leaders who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises, who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living. These evil schemers led the people into terrible wars that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras.
No other written testament so clearly illustrates the fact that when men and nations walk in the fear of God and in obedience to His commandments, they prosper and grow, but when they disregard Him and His word, there comes a decay that, unless arrested by righteousness, leads to impotence and death. The Book of Mormon is an affirmation of the Old Testament proverb: “Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people” (Proverbs 14:34).
The God of heaven spoke to these people of the Americas through prophets, telling them where true security could be found: “Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ” (Ether 2:12).
( Source: “A Testimony Vibrant and True”, Ensign, August 2005 Gordon b Hinkley.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:12 am

Ezra wrote:And why would you replace a forest God created with trees that (you) think are more beautiful.
The founders panted the "forest." I am adding more and stronger trees according to the same pattern.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:55 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:Penalty is force by definition.
freedomforall wrote:WRONG, just plain wrong.

Really?

    Force = control of property against someone's wishes.
Under this definition, how is penalty not force?

freedomforall wrote:Force is not teaching anyone how to use free will to exercise free agency.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Wrong. Defensive force is doing precisely that.
freedomforall wrote:What's this got to do with forcing people to obey laws of the land.

Defensive force teaches people to respect free agency of others.

freedomforall wrote:Again, talk about confusion. Also there is no logic or good reasoning in the thing you propose.

Prove it. The confusion is in you.

freedomforall wrote:This is why God is looking for those who "are willing to" obey, just like in the Sacramental prayer.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Right.
freedomforall wrote:If I am right, and I am, then why forced obedience to law?


Law is force. That which cannot enforce itself is no law at all. No force = no law, because law is force.

What is "law?" Law is nothing more or less than use of force according to some principle. True Law is nothing more or less than justice, i.e. non-violation of private property, or non-aggression principle; and force is always justified in enforcing that law.

He who's property is violated has the right to use force to neutralize/offset the violation.

So you have the right to use force to defend your property, your home and your family from being violated by others. And it is just.

God also has the right to defend his property. Now, since it is his property, he may choose to give you time to repent before he uses certain force, but it is within his right.

You asked, "why forced obedience to law?" Because that is what law is. It is force. But if you choose to obey the principle behind the law, then no force is necessary.

God wants us to learn to obey his laws without him having to use force, therefore he gives us time to learn. It is within his right, because he owns the property therefore he can decide when to use the force.

The purpose of the law of the land, if it is just, is to govern public property and to protect private property. Nothing more nothing less. Force is perfectly justified if it is within these conditions.

freedomforall wrote:Does aggressive force include punching someone out for not obeying? Or shooting them for looking at you in a way you didn't like after you said stop?

Force is justified against someone only if it is less or equal to his aggression against your property. It is that simple.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:07 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:And why would you replace a forest God created with trees that (you) think are more beautiful.
The founders panted the "forest." I am adding more and stronger trees according to the same pattern.


Does denieing gods hand in creating the forest make it easyer for you to change it to suit you.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:57 pm

Ezra wrote:Does denieing gods hand in creating the forest make it easyer for you to change it to suit you.
Did you stop beating your wife? Yes or No?


This is an example of a question that makes incorrect assumptions.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:08 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:Does denieing gods hand in creating the forest make it easyer for you to change it to suit you.
Did you stop beating your wife? Yes or No?


This is an example of a question that makes incorrect assumptions.


Not even close.

You have continued to deny God as the author of the constitution. That he claims.
Since you are likening trees to the constitution. Then saying changing the forest around is ok. I ask if you deny the hand of God in its creation if that makes it easyer for you to feel that way.

Your question is way off In left field.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:29 pm

Ezra wrote:You have continued to deny God as the author of the constitution. That he claims.
He claims to have inspired the men who wrote it, and he claims establishing it. Is that the same as being the author? I don't think so.
But for argument's sake I am willing to concede this point for now. Let's say he is the author. He still made the Constitution amendable, and revealed greater light and knowledge to be added to the Constitution, that explicitly clarifies certain key and all-important points (kind of like the Book of Mormon clarifies certain key points of the Bible). To deny the Book of Mormon because you have the Bible is foolish, according to God. So is foolish to refuse to add more clarity to the Constitution. In fact, God promised that those who refuse further light will lose even that which they now have, and we are witnessing that with the Constitution right now.
Ezra wrote:Since you are likening trees to the constitution. Then saying changing the forest around is ok. I ask if you deny the hand of God in its creation if that makes it easyer for you to feel that way.
I have never denied the hand of God in it's creation. I have repeatedly stated the Constitution was inspired. For you to assert contrary is disingenuous (if not dishonest).

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:06 pm

What is the diffrence between the inspired words of scripture and the inspired words of the constitution? God claims both as his.

Seems to me you downgrade the one as being less then the other. Why?

That's why I asked in previous posts why you don't crusade to change the scriptures.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:26 pm

Ezra wrote:What is the diffrence between the inspired words of scripture and the inspired words of the constitution? God claims both as his.

Seems to me you downgrade the one as being less then the other. Why?
Neither the entirety of the Bible nor the entirety of the Constitution are literal word of God.

Bible does contain many passages that are his direct words, or as good as. This is why you can say that the Bible is the word of God (as far as it is translated correctly).

Nevertheless it contains many things which are not direct God's words, and also some outright errors by the hands of men (some of which Joseph Smith was commanded to correct). In fact, an entire book in the Bible, "The Song of Solomon," was reportedly labeled by the prophet: "the Songs of Solomon are not inspired writings.” Though of course it contains some inspired elements that were quoted in D&C.

I'd say the Bible is more inspired than the Constitution, though.

Ezra wrote:That's why I asked in previous posts why you don't crusade to change the scriptures.
Because the scriptures are generally written by designated priesthood leaders. The Constitution was not. Therefore I will leave updates to the scriptures to the Presidents of the Church, but propose changes to the Constitution myself. I have no less authority to do so than Jefferson or Madison did.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:59 pm

The thing is God boldly claims the constitution and the men who wrote it as his men.
Boldly.

There are very few examples of that happening in scripture other then of prophets.

The founding fathers were choice spirits. That God claimed as his.

D&c121 34-40 God says most lds are not his and fight aginst him. Most.

Where most lds fail our founding fathers shined so much as to God through joseph smith not only put his stamp of approval on them but claims the work they did as his own.

I would say the constitution is more inspired then the bible. At least is was tell men just like with the bible started adding and subtracting from it.
And we have had more then one prophet say that to them the constitution is as much the word of God as the Book of Mormon.

So I'm suprised you crusade to change it when you don't the scriptures. They are one and the same.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:07 pm

Ezra wrote:I would say the constitution is more inspired then the bible.
I disagree with that. The Bible is MUCH more precious than the Constitution ever was. They are not even in the same league. By a mile.
Ezra wrote:So I'm surprised you crusade to change it when you don't the scriptures. They are one and the same.
Already answered that. And they are not the same.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:45 pm

Good to know you don't trust God then. Or our modern prophet.

Good luck with that.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:12 pm

Ezra wrote:Good to know you don't trust God then. Or our modern prophet.

Good luck with that.
Good to know you beat your wife. (This is just as much true as what you said).

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:44 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:Good to know you don't trust God then. Or our modern prophet.

Good luck with that.
Good to know you beat your wife. (This is just as much true as what you said).



You just said so yourself. Inspired but not his creation like he claims. Down grade the scriptures where God claiming the constitution as his to mean it's not as inspired as other documents he has claimed.

Obviously it upsets you for me to point this out. Truth cuts.

You have consistently disregarded any scripture and prophets that say something contrary to your ideals. And twist the ones you think support your ideals.

And your back to trying to insult me by saying I beat my wife.

Petty attempt to try to get a rise out of me. its not working.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:40 am

Ezra wrote:You just said so yourself. Inspired but not his creation like he claims.
I found a quote where it says it is inspired. I found a quote where it says he has established it. I agreed with both. What are we talking about? No it is not his literal word. It is a work or inspired but imperfect men. As I said, it doesn't even matter. Even if it was his word, just as much as the Bible, my reasons stand unchanged. Did you miss that? And you have no reason against it. What have you against God putting extra light and knowledge into the Constitution?

Ezra wrote:Obviously it upsets you for me to point this out. Truth cuts.
Not really. It is hilarious.
Ezra wrote:You have consistently disregarded any scripture and prophets that say something contrary to your ideals.
Not one.
Ezra wrote:And twist the ones you think support your ideals.
Look in the mirror.
Ezra wrote:And your back to trying to insult me by saying I beat my wife.
I actually didn't. I simply said, this statement is as true as yours. (Unless you actually do it, in which case I apologize, because your statement is false, even if my is true.)

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:40 am

So you agree with the prophets and the scriptures. Only to the point that it's not what they were saying but the way you think they say.

Let's put your inturpritations to a vote shall we. I would bet the majority of lds disagree with your inturpritations.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:21 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:You just said so yourself. Inspired but not his creation like he claims.
I found a quote where it says it is inspired. I found a quote where it says he has established it. I agreed with both. What are we talking about? No it is not his literal word. It is a work or inspired but imperfect men. As I said, it doesn't even matter. Even if it was his word, just as much as the Bible, my reasons stand unchanged. Did you miss that? And you have no reason against it. What have you against God putting extra light and knowledge into the Constitution?

Ezra wrote:Obviously it upsets you for me to point this out. Truth cuts.
Not really. It is hilarious.
Ezra wrote:You have consistently disregarded any scripture and prophets that say something contrary to your ideals.
Not one.
Ezra wrote:And twist the ones you think support your ideals.
Look in the mirror.
Ezra wrote:And your back to trying to insult me by saying I beat my wife.
I actually didn't. I simply said, this statement is as true as yours. (Unless you actually do it, in which case I apologize, because your statement is false, even if my is true.)


What do I have aginst God puting more in the constitution?
Simple. He that has to be commanded in all things has no reward.

The more God has to expound, command instruct the less our reward for doing it on our own without those instructions.
Ezra taft benson said the same thing is April 65 talk in conference.
The guidelines are already there wicked and rightous people aren't following it already.

You seem to want more commandments more instructions and Less reward or no reward.

If God changes it so be it. I however do not require it. I can live gods constitutional principle his gospel without a change or addition another commandment in order to do it.
Do you need that?do you need less reward?

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:52 pm

Ezra wrote:So you agree with the prophets and the scriptures. Only to the point that it's not what they were saying but the way you think they say.

Let's put your inturpritations to a vote shall we. I would bet the majority of lds disagree with your inturpritations.
"Popularity is never a test of truth." -- Ezra Taft Benson

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:11 pm

Ezra wrote:What do I have aginst God puting more in the constitution?
Simple. He that has to be commanded in all things has no reward.
Wow! You have something against God doing something? I couldn't have said it better myself. This is where you are mistaken. You should have exactly ZERO against God doing whatever he is doing. Why? Because whatever he is doing is right.

Ezra wrote:The more God has to expound, command instruct the less our reward for doing it on our own without those instructions.
Then we should banish all scripture according to this flawed logic. The less we have true principles from him the better, right? The greater the reward? You are so confused! (It's between funny and tragic).

And again you are confusing self-defense of the saints with other principles. It is simple self-defense to put into Federal government charter explicit prohibition against legalized plunder of private property.

Ezra wrote:Ezra taft benson said the same thing is April 65 talk in conference.
The guidelines are already there wicked and rightous people aren't following it already.
They are not following the guidelines because the Constitution is UNCLEAR regarding legalized plunder of private property via public taxation. This is its key weakness.

Ezra wrote:You seem to want more commandments more instructions and Less reward or no reward.
You are so confused. Maybe you will believe God who said:

    And they shall also be crowned with blessings from above, yea, and with commandments not a few, and with revelations in their time—they that are faithful and diligent before me. (Doctrine and Covenants 59:4)
This principle Abraham understood (which you do not):

    And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers. (Abraham 1:2)
Ezra wrote:If God changes it so be it. I however do not require it. I can live gods constitutional principle his gospel without a change or addition another commandment in order to do it.
Do you need that?do you need less reward?
You are so confused. God is changing it, much in the same way in which he brought forth the original Constitution. The principles I proposed to be put into the Constitution are to protect the people from government, in a very key point of legalized plunder. It is according to the word of God, that government should stop such plunder.

This is according to the word of God, and you are fighting against it. I have a news for you, you will lose, and God will prevail.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:47 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:So you agree with the prophets and the scriptures. Only to the point that it's not what they were saying but the way you think they say.

Let's put your inturpritations to a vote shall we. I would bet the majority of lds disagree with your inturpritations.
"Popularity is never a test of truth." -- Ezra Taft Benson


It's popular to amend the constitution.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:56 pm

Here let me use your thinking.

Your confused. Your wrong your this your that your your your.

You seem super well informed as of to what I am and think.

Are you God??

Stop telling me what I am. I'm a much better judge of myself then you will ever be.


So you say God is changing the constitution.


So all the amendments past the 10th are his??

All the evil that they have created is gods evil?
All the control lost is god taking away our agency?

Or is it exactly as God said.

D&c 98:9 when wicked rule the people mourn.

Wake up lov.
Stop justifying.

We don't have a constitution problem. We have. Wickedness problem.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:24 pm

Ezra wrote:
If God changes it so be it. I however do not require it. I can live gods constitutional principle his gospel without a change or addition another commandment in order to do it.
Do you need that?do you need less reward?

Lov wrote
You are so confused. <---- lovemust have a perfect knowlegde =))
God is changing it, much in the same way in which he brought forth the original Constitution.

Ezra says(with God having to explain it more we all have less reward then if we didn't need the constitution) The principles I (there is that I again) proposed to be put into the Constitution are to protect the people from government,(say it as it is. Wickedness) in a very key point of legalized plunder. It is according to the word of God, that government should stop such plunder.

(Where does God adress government like that?)
(Thou shalt not steal is written to the people)

Lov wrote.
This is according to the word of God, and you are fighting against it.(says you not scripture) I have a news for you, you will lose, and God will prevail.

Ezra writes. I'm not fighting aginst God. I am doing as the scriptures say. D&c 98 befriending the laws that are constitutional. Only.

So much so that I don't pay taxes. I don't partake in any socialistic programs. The government does not plunder from me. And everyone could be the same. If they to did as asked by not supporting unconstitutional laws.

Ezra writes.

According to the word of God those who need commanded In all things will have no reward. Are you not pushing for more commandments. More laws?

I will ask again.
Do you( lov) need more laws in order to live gods constitutional and gosple principles of agency?

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:16 pm

Ezra wrote:So you say God is changing the constitution.
Yes, by the hands of the people who listen to his precepts.
Ezra wrote:So all the amendments past the 10th are his??
Not all, but the 13th is.
Ezra wrote:We don't have a constitution problem. We have. Wickedness problem.
We have both. And fixing one helps to fix the other. And ignoring one, slows down the improvement of the other.

They are interlinked (though not in complete lockstep ) nevertheless interlinked, inseparably and eternally.


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