The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Discussion of principles relating to God's Law, Agency, Freedom, Liberty, the US constitution, and the Proper Role of Government.
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freedomforall
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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:04 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
freedomforall wrote:And that is to be subject to the powers that be...meaning governments.
Amending the Constitution is perfectly constitutional. So it does not violate that.
freedomforall wrote:God telling us to befriend and uphold the Constitution which is the supreme law of the land, and current prophets telling us the same..
There is no conflict between befriending and improving it. Indeed one implies another. And you cannot defile, or adulterate the Constitution by adding more of God's words to it. So there is zero contradiction here.
freedomforall wrote:Therefore a righteous government and a righteous people would have no need of social control.

The Constitution was written for the world as it is, which means not everybody is righteous. Therefore it must contain means to prevent government plundering the people. It is a very simple idea actually, perfectly in harmony with the word of God.
freedomforall wrote:Good luck in your run for POTUS. Time to put you money where your mouth is, isn't it?

I don't need to runt for POTUS to propose just and good amendments to the Constitution.
LoveIsTruth wrote:"Thou shall not steal" is scripture. How am I tossing it by applying it to the government in the Constitution whose purpose, according to God, is to restrict the government and to protect the people?
freedomforall wrote:God does not force people to keep his commandments does he? No. Satan's plan is accomplished by force.

You are confused. God uses force in defence of his property, and commanded his people to do the same. Incorporating a defence against government violence into the Constitution does not violate the agency of the people, but upholds it. Allowing government violence and plunder against the people does actually violate their agency. So you got it in reverse. I am protecting agency (freedom of property) of the people from violence and aggression of the government. That is just, and upholds agency, not destroys it. So you are incorrect. Only in your mind. :-?
freedomforall wrote:You just plain cannot force people to live righteously.

No, but you can defend yourself and your family from the wicked as God commands. Defense is a lot different than coercion into compliance of law. Cliven Bundy is a great example of defending against government tyranny. But if he were to simply tell them to leave him alone they would just laugh at him. They could care less what the Constitution says because they broke the law big time just in going after him the way they did. So what good will it do to put new wording in that document when the government agencies wouldn't abide with them anyway. Now what are you going to propose? War? This will happen at some point when the good patriotic folks in this country say enough is enough.
freedomforall wrote:And even if you could change the Constitution the Judicial System would still do things their way because they have their own Constitution.

The more plain the Constitution against government plunder, the harder it is to twist, the harder it is to lie to the people, because remember, it is on deception (and resulting acquiescence) of the people that the whole plunder system is built. Expose the lie, and you end the consent of the people, who will realize they are being robbed. Now however, most believe the plunder is somehow justified. This is because they haven't been reading the Constitution and making sure it is abided by. Learning twisted ideas by the precepts of man is why they are so oblivious to their true privileges granted by the Constitution. BTW, the Constitution isn't based on granting rights, it is based on granting privileges.
The role of the Constitution is to broadcasts the truth across the sky, so that the deception becomes much harder to pull off or impossible. But with broad taxation clauses as it is, the Constitution does no such thing, and therefore is ineffective in its present form, because it seems to allow public taxation of private property, which is a violation of private property, which is a definition of evil and injustice itself.

The Constitution must be amended to remove this weakness in it. It is in perfect harmony with scriptures and the word of God who made the Constitution amendable for this very purpose. And indeed it is our duty to use our influence to do the best we can to improve it in this way, according to the provisions God made in the Constitution itself.

Are you wiser than he? No, that is why I accept the Constitution as is because he raised the very people he wanted to write it and he put his stamp of approval on it just the way it is. This, my friend, makes me very wise indeed. God is much wiser...because the wisdom of men is but foolishness to God. His words not mine.
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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:17 pm

Ezra wrote:The problem remains the same. A wicked government and people will never accept the change. Nor allow it. You would still have to change hearts befor you could change the constitution. And if you changed hearts the need to change the constitution goes away with the change of heart.
With the same logic we would never had the Constitution. And it is false. Even if you change hearts, you still need just laws well written, otherwise you get chaos, and God's house is the house of order.
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:33 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:The problem remains the same. A wicked government and people will never accept the change. Nor allow it. You would still have to change hearts befor you could change the constitution. And if you changed hearts the need to change the constitution goes away with the change of heart.
With the same logic we would never have the Constitution. And it is false. Even if you change hearts, you still need just laws well written, otherwise you get chaos, and God's house is the house of order.
Babylon is not God's house. The carnal man is an enemy to God. So righteousness still precedes the Constitution. If all men and women in government were born again, changed from a carnal nature to one of pureness and virtue, then you may have a valid case. Sorry, but this is right out of scripture. Evil people will still seek evil and cling to it and or even espouse or promote it.
Just how many ways can this be articulated before it is understood. Your idea although noble, will not happen until Christ comes. Too many people labeling right as wrong and wrong as right, which is also scriptural.
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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:10 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:The problem remains the same. A wicked government and people will never accept the change. Nor allow it. You would still have to change hearts befor you could change the constitution. And if you changed hearts the need to change the constitution goes away with the change of heart.
With the same logic we would never have the Constitution. And it is false. Even if you change hearts, you still need just laws well written, otherwise you get chaos, and God's house is the house of order.
No your wrong.
The people were sick and tired of the government tyranny. Brought there complaints to the lord who then fought the battles with them. A very humbeling inspiring thing. right prior to them sitting in councle together men who God raised up for that very purpose. Men who studyed history and prayed to go to know the direction he would have them go.

God created the opportunities to have a humble inspired God fearing people who wanted not to be under the oppression they were just under.

God created the oppertunity and inspired them to do his will.

We have been falling away ever since. Becoming more wicked and going away from those godly principles and humility.

If God so wills it we will have another humbeling (most will not enjoy that) to make another oppertunity to change the constitution back to the way God would have it.

I can't see him adding to it. I could see a few words taken out. And then like befor he will allow men their agency to currupt or keep the words and will of God.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:28 pm

freedomforall wrote:Defense is a lot different than coercion into compliance of law.
A just law is never more than defense. They are one and the same. What I am proposing to put into the Constitution is nothing more than DEFENSE against the plunder by government.
freedomforall wrote:Cliven Bundy is a great example of defending against government tyranny. But if he were to simply tell them to leave him alone they would just laugh at him.
Yes, because they have corrupt law on their side. Such corruption of law is made easy without an explicit prohibition against any and ALL public taxation and regulation of private property, which is a violation of private property. This explicit prohibition against legalized plunder, against any and all violations of private property is absent in the Constitution, making evil and deception easy. This must be fixed, and legalized plunder forbidden.
freedomforall wrote:They could care less what the Constitution says because they broke the law big time
Uncertain laws make it easy to violate them. Constitution is missing explicit prohibition against all forms of plunder of private property, especially the plunder in the form of public taxation of private property.
freedomforall wrote:So what good will it do to put new wording in that document when the government agencies wouldn't abide with them anyway.
Clarity is key. The Constitution lacks clarity, and fails to EXPLICITLY forbid all violations of private property by the government. This makes it too easy for the agents of plunder pretend that they have a "right" to it. Persuasion is everything. It rules the world. To be persuasive, and therefore effective, laws must be crystal clear. Constitution is not. That is its weakness, and its flaw, that must be fixed, or it, and the country with it will die.
freedomforall wrote:Now what are you going to propose?
Truth. Education, and legislation of justice, to rout out legalized plunder, i.e. legalized evil.
freedomforall wrote:War? This will happen at some point when the good patriotic folks in this country say enough is enough.
The war is God's. He is exceedingly good at it. Leave it to him. He will fight our battles. And he will win for us, if we stop fighting against his words, and against extra light and knowledge he is giving us to improve the Constitution.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:50 pm

freedomforall wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:The problem remains the same. A wicked government and people will never accept the change. Nor allow it. You would still have to change hearts befor you could change the constitution. And if you changed hearts the need to change the constitution goes away with the change of heart.
With the same logic we would never had the Constitution. And it is false. Even if you change hearts, you still need just laws well written, otherwise you get chaos, and God's house is the house of order.
Babylon is not God's house. The carnal man is an enemy to God. So righteousness still precedes the Constitution. If all men and women in government were born again, changed from a carnal nature to one of pureness and virtue, then you may have a valid case.
I have a case precisely because they are NOT virtuous and pure. THIS is why an exceeding plainness of speech is a MUST in the Constitution. Implications are not enough. There must be EXPLICIT prohibitions against all government plunder of private property, especially and foremost, public taxation and public regulation of private property, which is a violation of private property, and thus is organized evil. Public representative government has a right to govern and tax only what it owns: public property, and nothing else. All regulation and taxation of what they do not own, that is of private property, is legalized evil, and legalized plunder.

To prove the case for absolute imperative of plain speech in the law from scripture:
  • And there was nothing save it was exceeding harshness, preaching and prophesying of wars, and contentions, and destructions, and continually reminding them of death, and the duration of eternity, and the judgments and the power of God, and all these things—stirring them up continually to keep them in the fear of the Lord. I say there was nothing short of these things, and exceedingly great plainness of speech, would keep them from going down speedily to destruction. And after this manner do I write concerning them. (Enos 1:23)
This exceedingly plain prohibition against slavery and against public taxation of private property was missing from the original Constitution. The slavery one, was fixed with the 13th Amendment, which God approved. But the explicit prohibition against all violations of private property by the government via public taxation and regulation is still missing. Thus this organized, legalized, and institutionalized evil still exist, and will continue until the law is corrected, like it was corrected with the 13th Amendment. One slavery down, one to go. It is next.
freedomforall wrote: Sorry, but this is right out of scripture.
Precisely.
freedomforall wrote:Evil people will still seek evil and cling to it and or even espouse or promote it.
This is precisely why we must not make it easy for them by failing to put explicit and plain true principles into the Constitution, which are now missing in it.
freedomforall wrote:Just how many ways can this be articulated before it is understood.
Indeed!
freedomforall wrote:Your idea although noble, will not happen until Christ comes. Too many people labeling right as wrong and wrong as right, which is also scriptural.
I am certain this will be brought into law at least a CENTURY before the second coming of the Savior. Though, first, the country will be cleansed, as prophesied.
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:56 pm

ok so for the umpteenth time.

Where does God say that we need to change the constitution?
The example you have provided are small little out of context snipets of incomplete info that you have based your assumptions.

I, ffa, Brian have all commented using quotes and scripture on how your inturpritations are off Or incomplete.

Yet you speak as if "your" inturpritations are the end all be all mind and will of God. When so much to the contrary has been said by the same sorces you quote.

Take a step back. Try to see the entire picture. Why would the scriptures and prophets say the opposite?

Have you studied the federalist papers? Have you studied the founding fathers their debates? Why they were inspired to create the constitution and government they did?
Have you studied what "all" of our modern prophets have had to say about the constitution? Have you read the scriptures while having it in your mind to know the will of God concerning government and agency?
If you have not done these things you cant claim to really know gods will without first seeking him through the evidences and frist hand knowledge by the founding fathers modern and prophets of old he has left us.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:04 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
freedomforall wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:The problem remains the same. A wicked government and people will never accept the change. Nor allow it. You would still have to change hearts befor you could change the constitution. And if you changed hearts the need to change the constitution goes away with the change of heart.
With the same logic we would never had the Constitution. And it is false. Even if you change hearts, you still need just laws well written, otherwise you get chaos, and God's house is the house of order.
Babylon is not God's house. The carnal man is an enemy to God. So righteousness still precedes the Constitution. If all men and women in government were born again, changed from a carnal nature to one of pureness and virtue, then you may have a valid case.
I have a case precisely because they are NOT virtuous and pure. THIS is why an exceeding plainness of speech is a MUST in the Constitution. Implications are not enough. There must be EXPLICIT prohibitions against all government plunder of private property, especially and foremost, public taxation and public regulation of private property, which is a violation of private property, and thus is organized evil. Public representative government has a right to govern and tax only what it owns: public property, and nothing else. All regulation and taxation of what they do not own, that is of private property, is legalized evil, and legalized plunder.

To prove the case for absolute imperative of plain speech in the law from scripture:
  • And there was nothing save it was exceeding harshness, preaching and prophesying of wars, and contentions, and destructions, and continually reminding them of death, and the duration of eternity, and the judgments and the power of God, and all these things—stirring them up continually to keep them in the fear of the Lord. I say there was nothing short of these things, and exceedingly great plainness of speech, would keep them from going down speedily to destruction. And after this manner do I write concerning them. (Enos 1:23)
freedomforall wrote: Sorry, but this is right out of scripture.
Precisely.
freedomforall wrote:Evil people will still seek evil and cling to it and or even espouse or promote it.
This is precisely why we must not make it easy for them by failing to put explicit and plain true principles into the Constitution, which are now missing in it.
freedomforall wrote:Just how many ways can this be articulated before it is understood.
Indeed!
freedomforall wrote:Your idea although noble, will not happen until Christ comes. Too many people labeling right as wrong and wrong as right, which is also scriptural.
I am certain this will be brought into law at least a CENTURY before the second coming of the Savior. Though, first, the country will be cleansed, as prophesied.[/quote]

My patrarical blessimg says I will be a leader in zion when the lord walks the streets. And my bros says he will be a leader in adomondiomen.

I know many others who say simalar. The lord will be back soon. Open your eyes

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:17 pm

Ezra wrote:ok so for the umpteenth time.

Where does God say that we need to change the constitution?
I answered this at least half a dozen times over and over again. Please scroll back in this thread and look it up.
Ezra wrote:The example you have provided are small little out of context snipets of incomplete info that you have based your assumptions.
There is nothing small about God condemning slavery and the original Constitution written to allow it.
Ezra wrote:I, ffa, Brian have all commented using quotes and scripture on how your inturpritations are off Or incomplete.
I did the same to you, with quotes and scriptures. Let the people judge who made his case better. And FYI, Brian agreed with me that the Constitution both has been (13th Amendment), and can be improved via an amendment.
Ezra wrote:Yet you speak as if "your" inturpritations are the end all be all mind and will of God. When so much to the contrary has been said by the same sorces you quote.
Not a word has been said contrary by the prophets to what I have said.
Ezra wrote:Take a step back. Try to see the entire picture. Why would the scriptures and prophets say the opposite?
They don't. It is you who needs to take a step back.
Ezra wrote:Have you studied the federalist papers? Have you studied the founding fathers their debates? Why they were inspired to create the constitution and government they did?
Have you studied what "all" of our modern prophets have had to say about the constitution? Have you read the scriptures while having it in your mind to know the will of God concerning government and agency?
If you have not done these things you cant claim to really know gods will without first seeking him through the evidences and frist hand knowledge by the founding fathers modern and prophets of old he has left us.
I have.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:31 pm

Ezra wrote:My patrarical blessimg says I will be a leader in zion when the lord walks the streets. And my bros says he will be a leader in adomondiomen.

I know many others who say simalar. The lord will be back soon. Open your eyes
You are confusing the Second Cumming with second founding of Zion. They are not the same event. There are more than 2 centuries between the two.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:04 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:My patrarical blessimg says I will be a leader in zion when the lord walks the streets. And my bros says he will be a leader in adomondiomen.

I know many others who say simalar. The lord will be back soon. Open your eyes
You are confusing the Second Cumming with second founding of Zion. They are not the same event. There are more than 2 centuries between the two.
Sweet. So your saying my bro and I will live to be a couple hundred years old. Wow that's great.

So I'm trying to picture what your doing when presented info contrary to "your" view point.

Do you close your eyes and start saying lalalalalalala for a few seconds then Start reading below the area that disproves you ideals?
Or do you quickly whip your head away and say (did someone say something) and then turn back and think "now where was I .... Oh yes way down here. " below the info that disproves you ideals?
Or is it some other more commical way of ignoring the truth?

Why are you so stuck on "your" way of thinking that you won't consider anything eles?

Like I said befor. Myself and others have posted quotes and scripture completly counter to what you are saying. And you ignor it.

You have just said that God lies. Do you realize that? You are saying "you" know better then God. Do you realize that?

Pride is the worst of all sins as it's the only sin tbat can lead to becomeing a son of perdition. The worst a person has pride the less they have the ability to recognize that they have it. Yet others can see it.

You get upset revert to name calling and insults because of that pride. You refuse to look at what other have to say because of that pride. You can not know God who is the opposite of pride. Humble.

It is in the darkness of men's own eyes they become lost. (Black elk)

Gods way is narrow. And in order to see it you have to have your eyes wide open.
That is why as it says in 2 nephi 28:30 that he will take away knowledge and wisdom. Because we ignor it.
It comes from every angle and every where.
Yet because of pride. We close our eyes. Or as black elk puts it. Our eyes darken. So where we cannot see plainly what's right in front of us.

Ignore at your own peril.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:24 am

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:ok so for the umpteenth time.

Where does God say that we need to change the constitution?
I answered this at least half a dozen times over and over again. Please scroll back in this thread and look it up.
Ezra wrote:The example you have provided are small little out of context snipets of incomplete info that you have based your assumptions.
There is nothing small about God condemning slavery and the original Constitution written to allow it.
Ezra wrote:I, ffa, Brian have all commented using quotes and scripture on how your inturpritations are off Or incomplete.
I did the same to you, with quotes and scriptures. Let the people judge who made his case better. And FYI, Brian agreed with me that the Constitution both has been (13th Amendment), and can be improved via an amendment.
Ezra wrote:Yet you speak as if "your" inturpritations are the end all be all mind and will of God. When so much to the contrary has been said by the same sorces you quote.
Not a word has been said contrary by the prophets to what I have said.
Ezra wrote:Take a step back. Try to see the entire picture. Why would the scriptures and prophets say the opposite?
They don't. It is you who needs to take a step back.
Ezra wrote:Have you studied the federalist papers? Have you studied the founding fathers their debates? Why they were inspired to create the constitution and government they did?
Have you studied what "all" of our modern prophets have had to say about the constitution? Have you read the scriptures while having it in your mind to know the will of God concerning government and agency?
If you have not done these things you cant claim to really know gods will without first seeking him through the evidences and frist hand knowledge by the founding fathers modern and prophets of old he has left us.
I have.
Soooooo which one is it?

I said I and other presented quotes and scripture opposite your view point. You said.
"I did the same to you with quotes and scripture let people decide."

Then you said that " not a word has been said contrary to what I have said"

You really are becoming like kmc who contradicts himself all the time. And then denies that he contradicted himself.

Brian agrees with you that the 13th is good???
That's great. Gotta be nice to have someone agree with you.

How about all the rest of the amendments that have torn the origonal to threads? Do you love them as well?

Joseph smith said.
"The Constitution should contain a provision that every officer of the Government who should neglect or refuse to extend the protection guaranteed in the Constitution should be subject to capital punishment"

That is the only change he wanted. The only change.
Do you know better the will of God then joseph smith???

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:02 am

It will make no difference what changes are put into the Constitution because:

The Contitution Will Be Saved - But Not In Washington
SEE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hedVPSE ... ewwm_9fu6n" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:34 am

Ezra wrote:Sweet. So your saying my bro and I will live to be a couple hundred years old. Wow that's great.
Why not? Besides, Jesus will walk the Streets of Zion LONG before his second coming.
Ezra wrote:So I'm trying to picture what your doing when presented info contrary to "your" view point.

Do you close your eyes and start saying lalalalalalala for a few seconds then Start reading below the area that disproves you ideals?
Or do you quickly whip your head away and say (did someone say something) and then turn back and think "now where was I .... Oh yes way down here. " below the info that disproves you ideals?
Or is it some other more commical way of ignoring the truth?

Why are you so stuck on "your" way of thinking that you won't consider anything eles?
May I suggest you look in the mirror and read this out loud?
Ezra wrote:Like I said befor. Myself and others have posted quotes and scripture completly counter to what you are saying.
Not one.
Ezra wrote:And you ignor it.
Not a single one. I answered each one. (Some of them several times over and over). You will not be able to point out a single quote you posted that I have not responded to. So you are mistaken.
Ezra wrote:You have just said that God lies. Do you realize that? You are saying "you" know better then God. Do you realize that?
You just said that the Moon is made of blue cheese. Do you realize that?
Ezra wrote:Pride is the worst of all sins as it's the only sin tbat can lead to becomeing a son of perdition. The worst a person has pride the less they have the ability to recognize that they have it. Yet others can see it.
Right!
Ezra wrote:You get upset revert to name calling and insults because of that pride. You refuse to look at what other have to say because of that pride.
I refused to look at nothing. I answered completely EVERY point you made.
Ezra wrote:You can not know God who is the opposite of pride. Humble.

It is in the darkness of men's own eyes they become lost. (Black elk)
By the way, did you just accuse me of something?
Ezra wrote:Gods way is narrow. And in order to see it you have to have your eyes wide open.
That is why as it says in 2 nephi 28:30 that he will take away knowledge and wisdom. Because we ignor it.
O, yes! You are so right, it is actually very funny!
Ezra wrote:It comes from every angle and every where.
Yet because of pride. We close our eyes. Or as black elk puts it. Our eyes darken. So where we cannot see plainly what's right in front of us.

Ignore at your own peril.
Amen, brother.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:58 am

Ezra wrote:I said I and other presented quotes and scripture opposite your view point.
You think they are opposite. They are not. And I pointed it out with other quotes and scriptures.
Ezra wrote:You said.
"I did the same to you with quotes and scripture let people decide."
Exactly.
Ezra wrote:Then you said that " not a word has been said contrary to what I have said"
Precisely.
Ezra wrote:You really are becoming like kmc who contradicts himself all the time. And then denies that he contradicted himself.
Please show me where I contradicted myself.
Ezra wrote:How about all the rest of the amendments that have torn the origonal to threads? Do you love them as well?
Nop.
Ezra wrote:Joseph smith said.
"The Constitution should contain a provision that every officer of the Government who should neglect or refuse to extend the protection guaranteed in the Constitution should be subject to capital punishment"

That is the only change he wanted. The only change.
Do you know better the will of God then joseph smith???
I simply brought it to your attention because you said that there cannot and should not be any change to the Constitution. Joseph Smith disagreed with you. And even though that was the only change he wanted at the time, he did not say there cannot or should not be any other changes. The 13th amendment abolishing slavery was in perfect harmony with the word of God, and therefore, I am sure both God and Joseph approved of it.

Hence I ask you your own question "Do you know better the will of God then Joseph Smith?"

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:04 am

freedomforall wrote:It will make no difference what changes are put into the Constitution
That is false. It makes a great deal of difference. Otherwise the founders could have just written "piggady, buggady, boo" for the Constitution, and it would've been just as good.

It is not.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:38 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:I said I and other presented quotes and scripture opposite your view point.
You think they are opposite. They are not. And I pointed it out with other quotes and scriptures.
Ezra wrote:You said.
"I did the same to you with quotes and scripture let people decide."
Exactly.
Ezra wrote:Then you said that " not a word has been said contrary to what I have said"
Precisely.
Ezra wrote:You really are becoming like kmc who contradicts himself all the time. And then denies that he contradicted himself.
Please show me where I contradicted myself.
Ezra wrote:How about all the rest of the amendments that have torn the origonal to threads? Do you love them as well?
Nop.
Ezra wrote:Joseph smith said.
"The Constitution should contain a provision that every officer of the Government who should neglect or refuse to extend the protection guaranteed in the Constitution should be subject to capital punishment"

That is the only change he wanted. The only change.
Do you know better the will of God then joseph smith???
I simply brought it to your attention because you said that there cannot and should not be any change to the Constitution. Joseph Smith disagreed with you. And even though that was the only change he wanted at the time, he did not say there cannot or should not be any other changes. The 13th amendment abolishing slavery was in perfect harmony with the word of God, and therefore, I am sure both God and Joseph approved of it.

Hence I ask you your own question "Do you know better the will of God then Joseph Smith?"

I'm not the one trying to do something different then what joseph smith said.

And no I dont think I do.

That's why I'm asking you why do you think you do?
What your preaching is not what the scriptures and prophets teach.

Why post the same thing over and over without you listening to it???? Ffa posted what john Taylor said about leaving the constitution unadulterated. Joseph smith call it a heavenly banner.

Ezra Taft benson said this

I have faith that the Constitution will be saved as prophesied by Joseph Smith. It will be saved by the righteous citizens of this nation who love and cherish freedom. It will be saved by enlightened members of this Church—among others—men and women who understand and abide the principles of the Constitution.

I reverence the Constitution of the United States as a sacred document. To me its words are akin to the revelations of God, for God has placed His stamp of approval upon it.

I testify that the God of heaven sent some of His choicest spirits to lay the foundation of this government, and He has now sent other choice spirits to help preserve it.


Choice spirit to preserve it. Preserve, not change.

The entire talk can be found here.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... n?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:57 pm

I have no problem doing as joseph smith said.

Still does not change the fact that it will never happen while wicked people rule.

You purpose to do much more then joseph smith did. Which he couldn't make it happen because of the wicked men who rule. They killed him.

You just won't be able to make any change for good happen while wickedness rules.

Discussing how and what to change is a waist of time since it will never happen tell God makes it happen.

When God makes it happen. We will no longer have the us government.

Scriptures say that in the last days that the word will go forth out of jeruselum and the law from zion.

So durring my life the us government will be replaced. According to God.
And durring that time the constitution will be saved by the members of the church. Carried over to the new government.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:09 pm

Ezra wrote:Discussing how and what to change is a waist of time since it will never happen tell God makes it happen.
God makes it happen through people like you and I. So it is not a waste of time, but is a part of the process. The same principles I am advancing now, will prevail then, because they are true.
Ezra wrote:When God makes it happen. We will no longer have the us government.
Not the one we have now for sure.
Ezra wrote:Scriptures say that in the last days that the word will go forth out of jeruselum and the law from zion.

So durring my life the us government will be replaced. According to God.
I believe that. And I assure you, when this happens the Constitution will be changed according to the principles I am describing, because they are true, and God is their source. You will accept them either now or later, but they will prevail to the uttermost, with or without you.

Thank you.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:22 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:Discussing how and what to change is a waist of time since it will never happen tell God makes it happen.
God makes it happen through people like you and I. So it is not a waste of time, but is a part of the process. The same principles I am advancing now, will prevail then, because they are true.
Ezra wrote:When God makes it happen. We will no longer have the us government.
Not the one we have now for sure.
Ezra wrote:Scriptures say that in the last days that the word will go forth out of jeruselum and the law from zion.

So durring my life the us government will be replaced. According to God.
I believe that. And I assure you, when this happens the Constitution will be changed according to the principles I am describing, because they are true, and God is their source. You will accept them either now or later, but they will prevail to the uttermost, with or without you.

Thank you.
The problem is what you just said. "The constitution will be changed to the principles (i) am describing. "
Not God you.

I know God has no problem with his constitutional principles being put back to order as they should be. As he created them.

You however are not God.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:38 pm

Ezra wrote:The problem is what you just said. "The constitution will be changed to the principles (i) am describing. "
Not God you.
The principles I am describing came from God and are found in his scriptures. So they are his principles. I am simply repeating them. But he is their source.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:32 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:The problem is what you just said. "The constitution will be changed to the principles (i) am describing. "
Not God you.
The principles I am describing came from God and are found in his scriptures. So they are his principles. I am simply repeating them. But he is their source.
Gods principles don't = force.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:14 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
freedomforall wrote:It will make no difference what changes are put into the Constitution
That is false. It makes a great deal of difference. Otherwise the founders could have just written "piggady, buggady, boo" for the Constitution, and it would've been just as good.

It is not.
Which part of the video did you not understand. The Constitution will not be saved in Washington. So changing it won't make a difference because it will be difficult enough just fighting and losing blood just to get what we lost back into play.
Perhaps you skipped watching the video altogether so you could purposely avoid President Benson's words of hardship and hope.

If the Constitution is to be rewritten, it will be written the way God wants it, in his words. He commands and he revokes. You cannot direct God as to what needs to be written in that document. It will be according to his thoughts and wants for us, not what "we think" should be in it. We cannot counsel God, this is a big no-no.
REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

Rumors are like tumors, they're bred and spread.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:08 pm

Well when you have lots of pride. You do know more then everyone eles . To lov ffa your wrong he's right. And won't look at anything that would prove his pride.
It's not an issue of the constitution. It's an issue of pride.

Remember to pray for our brother lov to have God help him and us find humility.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:53 pm

Ezra wrote:God's principles don't = force.
Gods principles = use force for justice/defense + use persuasion for everything else.

Proof from scripture:
  • But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.(Alma 42:22)

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:16 pm

freedomforall wrote:Which part of the video did you not understand. The Constitution will not be saved in Washington.
I never said it would be.
freedomforall wrote:So changing it won't make a difference because it will be difficult enough just fighting and losing blood just to get what we lost back into play.
That is a non sequitur.

Besides putting effort into changing it is a worthy goal, for it will bring about greater education in the principles of liberty.
freedomforall wrote:If the Constitution is to be rewritten, it will be written the way God wants it, in his words.
Yes. What I proposed is in perfect harmony with his words. In fact, they are his words.
freedomforall wrote:He commands and he revokes. You cannot direct God as to what needs to be written in that document.
No, but he can direct me, the same way as he directed Madison and Jefferson.
freedomforall wrote:It will be according to his thoughts and wants for us, not what "we think" should be in it. We cannot counsel God, this is a big no-no.
Precisely. It is his will that the Constitution be improved according as I have stated, because it is according to his words. If you do not believe me, pray about it.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:05 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
freedomforall wrote:Which part of the video did you not understand. The Constitution will not be saved in Washington.
I never said it would be.
freedomforall wrote:So changing it won't make a difference because it will be difficult enough just fighting and losing blood just to get what we lost back into play.
That is a non sequitur.

Besides putting effort into changing it is a worthy goal, for it will bring about greater education in the principles of liberty.
freedomforall wrote:If the Constitution is to be rewritten, it will be written the way God wants it, in his words.
Yes. What I proposed is in perfect harmony with his words. In fact, they are his words.
freedomforall wrote:He commands and he revokes. You cannot direct God as to what needs to be written in that document.
No, but he can direct me, the same way as he directed Madison and Jefferson.
freedomforall wrote:It will be according to his thoughts and wants for us, not what "we think" should be in it. We cannot counsel God, this is a big no-no.
Precisely. It is his will that the Constitution be improved according as I have stated, because it is according to his words. If you do not believe me, pray about it.
Who says he will choose you? Isn't that quite presumptuous to assume he would pick you? Oh, I suppose you could send in some suggestions, this is true, but to think that people will take your proposed ideas and implement them is quite nill in application.
REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

Rumors are like tumors, they're bred and spread.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:17 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:God's principles don't = force.
Gods principles = use force for justice/defense + use persuasion for everything else.

Proof from scripture:
  • But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.(Alma 42:22)
This scripture does not say what you think it does with regard to the laws of the land and forced adherence. This scriptures is talking about the fact that if we do not change our ways, repent and seek Christ and his ways, mercy cannot take effect and we will be taken by Satan and dragged to hell, which is, by the way, the justice of God. If we do not repent justice will take full effect because we are sinners and the default setting for sinners is hell and damnation. IF God were to save us in our sins he would cease to be God. God allows not one sin to enter into his Kingdom. These things are also in the scriptures. We cannot twist the meaning of scriptures just so we can justify our own ambitions.
REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

Rumors are like tumors, they're bred and spread.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:58 am

freedomforall wrote:Who says he will choose you? Isn't that quite presumptuous to assume he would pick you?
I sad he can.
freedomforall wrote:Oh, I suppose you could send in some suggestions, this is true, but to think that people will take your proposed ideas and implement them is quite nill in application.
The principles I proposed are God's. The people will have to accept them, because they are true.

This is the power of the truth. Just like if I discovered, for example, that 2+2=4, people would have to accept it, because it is true. You cannot prevail against the truth anymore than you can dethrone God. You can try, but you will fail. Truth will prevail to the uttermost, and all who fight against it will destroy themselves, because only truth is self-supporting. Learn that.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:09 am

freedomforall wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:God's principles don't = force.
Gods principles = use force for justice/defense + use persuasion for everything else.

Proof from scripture:
  • But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.(Alma 42:22)
This scripture does not say what you think it does with regard to the laws of the land and forced adherence. This scriptures is talking about the fact that if we do not change our ways, repent and seek Christ and his ways, mercy cannot take effect and we will be taken by Satan and dragged to hell, which is, by the way, the justice of God. If we do not repent justice will take full effect because we are sinners and the default setting for sinners is hell and damnation. IF God were to save us in our sins he would cease to be God. God allows not one sin to enter into his Kingdom. These things are also in the scriptures. We cannot twist the meaning of scriptures just so we can justify our own ambitions.
God uses force to protect his property. Will you deny this?
  • And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations; for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them. (3 Nephi 9:9)
This proves that God uses force to defend his property.


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