The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Discussion of principles relating to God's Law, Agency, Freedom, Liberty, the US constitution, and the Proper Role of Government.
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freedomforall
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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:25 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
freedomforall wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:I am here promoting truth.
It depends on whose truth it really is.
Truth is truth, and it is one.
freedomforall wrote:There is an account of Korihor going about trying to teach his truth also. Look where it got him.
You are confused. Korihor was teaching lies. You should be able to tell the difference between the two.
freedomforall wrote:If truth is to be taught, it had better be truth and not supposition or conjecture.
I agree, but there is nothing wrong with supposition or conjecture, as long as they are true. By definition.
freedomforall wrote:I quoted right out of scripture why God had the Constitution written, yet, you still seem to reject that truth and supply your own paradigm. as truth.
You are confused. I accept the scriptures. You don't.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:50 pm

freedomforall wrote:After reading all the stuff in upholding and befriending and learning of the very document that has provided freedom and liberty, ... one guy bent on telling us the Constitution has to be improved.
That guy was Joseph Smith. You did well learning what the prophets have said. But you stopped short of thinking for yourself, or believing the prophets, when they said the document was imperfect and needed to be improved. Joseph Smith said it. Why do you not believe him?
freedomforall wrote:Whereas, it is the morality and conduct of the human race that needs to be improved.
One helps the other. Both need to be improved. If the Constitution explicitly forbade legalized plunder, it would have helped to improve national morality a great deal.
freedomforall wrote:Somebody ought to know where I'm coming from.
You mean well, but you are afraid to think for yourself, and to believe the prophets of God when they say something you don't want to understand.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:16 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
freedomforall wrote:After reading all the stuff in upholding and befriending and learning of the very document that has provided freedom and liberty, ... one guy bent on telling us the Constitution has to be improved.
That guy was Joseph Smith. You did well learning what the prophets have said. But you stopped short of thinking for yourself, or believing the prophets, when they said the document was imperfect and needed to be improved. Joseph Smith said it. Why do you not believe him? Because I say you blow things out of proportion, no less than you not believing what John Taylor said. In fact I repeated it several times and you still don't get it. No surprise. You go by one man you think said it is imperfect when I show you a multitude of quotes by many prophets and leaders saying the contrary. And you want me to go with one distorted viewpoint? I think not. I know better.
freedomforall wrote:Whereas, it is the morality and conduct of the human race that needs to be improved.
One helps the other. Both need to be improved. If the Constitution explicitly forbade legalized plunder, it would have helped to improve national morality a great deal. Not so, following God's word would, which includes befriending and upholding the Constitution instead of trying to find ways to coerce people into obedience to good laws. This is Satan's way. God gives us the choice to either act or to be acted upon. We don't need a Constitution that says we all will keep the commandments or else. This is what scriptures are for.
freedomforall wrote:Somebody ought to know where I'm coming from.
You mean well, but you are afraid to think for yourself, and to believe the prophets of God when they say something you don't want to understand.
Are you still trying to bait me. Do you know me. Do you know my thoughts and emotions. Are you attempting to do my thinking for me? Even Ezra asked you the near same thing about him. I tried to back out by talking to someone other than you but you took upon yourself to respond for Lockey and keep on prodding, accusing and baiting.
Last edited by freedomforall on Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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To the very best of my recollection...I don't remember!

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:26 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:What would promote more progress. Education of the wicked or a change to a document?
Both work hand in hand. One strengthens and promotes the other. These processes are inseparable and one. You cannot fully accomplish one without the other.

Ezra wrote:Why don't you work at changing scriptures lov?
Who said I don't, luv.


I wouldn't put it past you. If something does not fit " your " perspective I imagin you would want it to. Just as out prophets have said. People don't want to hear what's right. They want to hear what they are doing is right even if it's not.

Changing the constitution does not go hand in hand with rightiousness.

There is more rightiousness outside the cloak of the constitution then under it.

You could rewrite the constitution tell your blue in the face and it won't change a wicked people. They won't abide by it.

Every amendment to the constitution past ten 10 and origonal constitution has cometh evil just as the lord has said it would.

One does not need the bible or Book of Mormon to know God. They can go directly to the lord for there learnings. Or learn from nature. A change of the constitution is not needed to become rightious. All of gods creations point to him. But all are not needed to find him. Closing your eyes and listening will get you much closer then almost anything.
Most people will distract themselfs from ever building a personal relationship with God their entire lifes.
Satans is a huge advocate of distractions.
of his best ways to go about this to get people passionate about the distraction. Get them pumped up in there own mind about how good they are for doing this or that.

They are well intended fools. Anyone who voted for Obama or Romany are well intended fools. Anyone who promotes democracy are well intended fools.

The only change needed is a change of heart towards God and eachother.

Lov unless your a prophet of God you have no athority to change gods works.
Do you have a Personal witness of our lord and savior as joseph smith had? Or John Taylor?

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:40 pm

Ezra wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:What would promote more progress. Education of the wicked or a change to a document?
Both work hand in hand. One strengthens and promotes the other. These processes are inseparable and one. You cannot fully accomplish one without the other.

Ezra wrote:Why don't you work at changing scriptures lov?
Who said I don't, luv.


I wouldn't put it past you. If something does not fit " your " perspective I imagin you would want it to. Just as out prophets have said. People don't want to hear what's right. They want to hear what they are doing is right even if it's not.

Changing the constitution does not go hand in hand with rightiousness.

There is more rightiousness outside the cloak of the constitution then under it.

You could rewrite the constitution tell your blue in the face and it won't change a wicked people. They won't abide by it.

Every amendment to the constitution past ten 10 and origonal constitution has cometh evil just as the lord has said it would.

One does not need the bible or Book of Mormon to know God. They can go directly to the lord for there learnings. Or learn from nature. A change of the constitution is not needed to become rightious. All of gods creations point to him. But all are not needed to find him. Closing your eyes and listening will get you much closer then almost anything.
Most people will distract themselfs from ever building a personal relationship with God their entire lifes.
Satans is a huge advocate of distractions.
of his best ways to go about this to get people passionate about the distraction. Get them pumped up in there own mind about how good they are for doing this or that.

They are well intended fools. Anyone who voted for Obama or Romany are well intended fools. Anyone who promotes democracy are well intended fools.

The only change needed is a change of heart towards God and eachother.

Lov unless your a prophet of God you have no athority to change gods works.
Do you have a Personal witness of our lord and savior as joseph smith had? Or John Taylor?

Now I suppose he thinks his name is Lockey, of whom I was addressing when he, LOV, stepped in and said some more nasty things. He doesn't know when to quit. We know for a fact we can't change the words coming from between scratches on a damaged vinyl record. His ranting reminds of this. You know, "the Constitution is imperfect", "the Constitution is imperfect", "the Constitution is imperfect", "the Constitution is imperfect", "the Constitution is imperfect", "the Constitution is imperfect", "the Constitution is imperfect", "the Constitution is imperfect", on and on and on, etc.
GUESS WHO

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

To the very best of my recollection...I don't remember!

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:37 am

freedomforall wrote:instead of trying to find ways to coerce people into obedience to good laws.
You are confused. It is perfectly proper to coerce people not to violate the property of others. This is the only type of coercion that is justified by God. So a prophet of God, who you said your respect, Joseph Smith, said that such coercion should be added to the Constitution, and it is just and good. But you do not believe the prophet, and then say that I don't. That is not logical, my friend.

freedomforall wrote:We don't need a Constitution that says we all will keep the commandments or else. This is what scriptures are for.
We need the Constitution to say that the government will not rob us, or else. This is Joseph Smith opinion also, not just mine, and it is correct, because that is the purpose of the Constitution according to God himself. This is justice. What's your problem with justice?

freedomforall wrote:You go by one man you think said it is imperfect
Actually two prophets said that. Is that not enough for you? I am sure I could find more, because the point is so obvious to anyone who can reason.

freedomforall wrote:Are you still trying to bait me. Do you know me. Do you know my thoughts and emotions. Are you attempting to do my thinking for me? Even Ezra asked you the near same thing about him. I tried to back out by talking to someone other than you but you took upon yourself to respond for Lockey and keep on prodding, accusing and baiting.
No, it is you who came to my thread (thanks Brian). I didn't ask you to post in it. You do it of your own free will. Feel free to start your own, I promise not to post there, and quit complaining about me responding to what is said in my thread. You look ridiculous. Besides, you respond to me when I am answering other people all the time. Feel free to not respond to this thread if it upsets you so much. It is not my purpose to provoke you.
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:08 am

Ezra wrote:Changing the constitution does not go hand in hand with rightiousness.
Tell it to Joseph Smith, who wanted to change it, and to God who specifically made it changeable so it could be improved over time. You contradict them both, and you contradict reason itself. Not a good position at all.

Ezra wrote:You could rewrite the constitution tell your blue in the face and it won't change a wicked people. They won't abide by it.
No, but it will make it much easier for righteous people to defend themselves from the wicked. This is why the prophet wanted it changed. And he was right. You are not.

Ezra wrote:A change of the constitution is not needed to become rightious.
But it certainly helps a lot. Are you against that?

Ezra wrote:The only change needed is a change of heart towards God and eachother.
Putting more justice into law only helps in this. Allowing injustice in the law, corrupts people. It is not good. Both changing hearts and laws must happen hand in hand, and each helps the other a great deal. In this is the wisdom of God that you do not see yet.

Ezra wrote:Lov unless your a prophet of God you have no athority to change gods works.
I have no less authority to propose improvements to the Constitution than Jefferson or Madison did. And yes, I am a prophet too, because I have a testimony "for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Revelation 19:10)

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:12 am

freedomforall wrote: "the Constitution is imperfect"
That is true, and not just according to me, but at least two prophets as well. It is also true according to Reason and God. Deal with it.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:37 am

Lov are the scriptures the sum of one verse?

No they are not right.

You can't take a part of one quote from joseph smith and john Taylor to form your understanding unless you want to be informed.

That's why earlyer I said after you posted D&c 101:79 as your reason why you think God thinks the constitution is flawed. That if you leave out the rest of the scripture then Ya you could inturprite it that way. But add the rest of the scripture and in no way Is God saying its flawed.

Same with joseph and John Taylor. Who as ffa pointed out have had much more to say to the opposit then what your holding onto.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:50 am

God left the door open for it to be change is true. That dosent mean we should. It means we should.

Should we change scripture? We can we could change it all day long if we so desired. God won't like it. We will be judged for it exspecialy if others are fooled by the. Changed we made.

Just like the constitution. We will be judged for the changes we allow.

D&c 76:75. These are they who were honnorable men of the earth who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

JS vision of who will inherit the terrestrial kingdom.

That's all it takes. To be dooped into following a political coarse that is not gods.

How do you not get tricked. Follow God and his words and his creations. Don't change them to say what you want.

Are you gods prophet? Do you know without a doubt his will? Spoken face to face with him? If not then working to recive that witness is more important then any other persuit.

Knowing and teaching the gosple trumps everything eles.
2nd to that is being rightiously involved in the battle for our agency that still rages on.

Stop the freedoms being lost.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:06 am

Ezra and freedomfighter, even though we disagree on points of doctrine, I still regard you as friends and brothers in the Gospel. Please know of my love and respect for you. Thank you for your love of the Gospel, Liberty, and country. Best wishes to both of you. :)

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:53 am

Ezra wrote:Lov are the scriptures the sum of one verse?

No they are not right.

You can't take a part of one quote from joseph smith and john Taylor to form your understanding
I didn't. I formed my understanding based on true principles of liberty which showed to me that the Constitution must be improved, and only after, I was delighted to see that Joseph Smith and John Taylor had the same opinion.
Ezra wrote:That's why earlyer I said after you posted D&c 101:79 as your reason why you think God thinks the constitution is flawed. That if you leave out the rest of the scripture then Ya you could inturprite it that way. But add the rest of the scripture and in no way Is God saying its flawed.
How is that? Do you not agree that the original Constitution was specifically written to allow slavery, with 3/5th compromise and the founders holding slaves themselves?

Besides, that is not the only scripture showing that the Constitution is incomplete. The command "Thou shall not steal" is being violated via taxation clauses, because these clauses do not forbid public taxation of private property, a.k.a. wholesale, systematic violation of private property, a.k.a. legalized plunder, a.k.a institutionalized evil. As you correctly pointed out, it is just another face of slavery, which plunder and slavery are forbidden by God. And since the Constitution is specifically written to restrain the government, it is altogether proper that these all-important key restrictions on government institutionalized evil must be explicitly included into the Constitution. It is the absence of these explicit restrictions on violations of private property via taxation, (which was caused by the lack of understanding in the founders, that violation of private property is always evil, no matter what majority votes for it), that made it so easy for the wicked to subvert the Constitution and all but destroy Liberty and Justice in this country.

Joseph Smith thought it was important to alter the Constitution if it was to be effective. I agree with him.

Ezra wrote:Same with joseph and John Taylor. Who as ffa pointed out have had much more to say to the opposit then what your holding onto.
They said nothing to the opposite. As I already pointed out, adding more God's words to the Constitution does not adulterate or defile it in any way. It will only strengthen its usefulness in the defense of Liberty and Justice as Joseph Smith pointed out.
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:36 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:11 am

Ezra wrote:God left the door open for it to be change is true. That dosent mean we should. It means we should[n't].
That is a very flawed logic, especially in the light of the fact that the Constitution is incomplete.

Ezra wrote:Just like the constitution. We will be judged for the changes we allow.
We will also be judged for the changes we DIDN'T make, the changes that God wanted us to make, to make the Constitution a better instrument in the fight for Liberty and Justice.

Think about that.

I say it again, Joseph Smith whom you and I call a prophet said the Constitution is missing things. Then God provides the tools, in the Constitution itself, to put those things in; and yet you say we shouldn't use it? Will we not be condemned if we don't make the use of the tools God himself provided to fulfill his will and pleasure?

That sounds like the correct logic to me. Wouldn't you say?

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:25 pm

The battlefront isn't changing the Constitution. the battlefront is changing hearts. It's true that Satan wants to destroy the Constitution.

Having thou shalt not steal in the constitution isn't going to make people listen to it. Having Thou shalt not steal is in the Bible and Book of Mormon almost no one is listening to it is proof of what I'm saying.

Change the constitution won't change of evil people. Changing the constitution won't change and evil government.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:32 pm

Ezra wrote:The battlefront isn't changing the Constitution. the battlefront is changing hearts.
Both work hand in hand and mightily help each other. This is why God puts such high importance on good laws. It is unwise to ignore any avenue of changing hearts via education, even, and especially if such education is triggered by an effort to amend the Constitution for the better. Look how much learning took place because of this one debate. So you win whether amendment is passed or not. But if you do not try, you lose for sure. Therefore it is much wiser to put effort in passing such amendments.

Ezra wrote:Having thou shalt not steal in the constitution isn't going to make people listen to it.
It will make it significantly harder for the government to plunder private property, if explicit prohibition against all forms of such plunder, especially against public taxation of private property, is given in the Constitution. Many people even now are clueless, that ANY violation of private property is evil, no matter who voted for it. If you put such language into the Constitution, it will be harder to fool so many people, because wicked government ALWAYS relies on deception, by making its victims believe that the plunder is for their own good. Put such language into the Constitution exposing the lie, and you took away one of the major tools of deception and tyranny.

Remember, without the consent of 300 million people it is impossible for tyrants to rob them. Therefore they HAVE TO lie to plunder so many. This amendment would destroy the lie.

Ezra wrote:Having Thou shalt not steal is in the Bible and Book of Mormon almost no one is listening to it is proof of what I'm saying.
You are missing the point. Of course the rulers will try to steal, but you are making it much harder for them. Why? Because it is the people who are getting robbed by very few. The only way it is possible is by deceiving the people so they would go alone and consent to being robbed, "for the greater good." Put this fact into the Constitution and deception of the victims becomes nigh impossible.

Ezra wrote:Change the constitution won't change of evil people.
Not true. The very process of changing the Constitution for the better will become a mighty catalyst for educating and changing the people. In fact one is impossible without the other, therefore both must occur together.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:35 pm

Thus far have any of the changes of the constitution brought about a change for the good?

did you come closer to God befor you even knew about the constitution? If yes then you have proved your self wrong that it goes hand in hand. Which I've already given quite a few examples to show it doesn't.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:51 pm

Ezra wrote:Thus far have any of the changes of the constitution brought about a change for the good?
First 10 did, because they were mostly just. The ones after were mostly bad, therefore they brought bad changes. There is no surprise: good brings good, bad brings bad. That's simple.

Ezra wrote:did you come closer to God befor you even knew about the constitution? If yes then you have proved your self wrong that it goes hand in hand. Which I've already given quite a few examples to show it doesn't.
I didn't say they are in complete lock step, but one causes the other ultimately. Good changes in law help to educate people about correct principles. Bad changes in law lead them to believe incorrect principles. (Like so many have the entitlement plunder mentality because the law promotes plunder.)

So passing a good amendment would help mightily with education in and promotion of correct principles of Liberty.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby BrianM » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:10 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:No, it is you who came to my thread (thanks Brian). I didn't ask you to post in it. You do it of your own free will. Feel free to start your own, I promise not to post there, and quit complaining about me responding to what is said in my thread. You look ridiculous....

Thanks for what?
Are you going to continue to make inappropriate comments towards others even after I have warned you for it? (RE: your comment to "freedomforall": "You look ridiculous")
All my opinions are tentative pending further data...

The Matrix is real...

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby David13 » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:36 pm

The bad thing about changing the Constitution is then everybody wants to change it to suit whatever, and today we have perversions that seek, yes, sexual perversions that seek legal, spiritual and moral approval.
And every other possible change, rider, amendment, etc., to put forth whatever the politically correct agenda of the day is.
And you end up with a mess.
So if you really don't think the government freeloaders should be "entitled" what you want to do is strictly construe the Constitution and make the amendment process as difficult as possible so that very very very few changes are ever made.
dc

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:57 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Ezra wrote:Thus far have any of the changes of the constitution brought about a change for the good?
First 10 did, because they were mostly just. The ones after were mostly bad, therefore they brought bad changes. There is no surprise: good brings good, bad brings bad. That's simple.

Ezra wrote:did you come closer to God befor you even knew about the constitution? If yes then you have proved your self wrong that it goes hand in hand. Which I've already given quite a few examples to show it doesn't.
I didn't say they are in complete lock step, but one causes the other ultimately. Good changes in law help to educate people about correct principles. Bad changes in law lead them to believe incorrect principles. (Like so many have the entitlement plunder mentality because the law promotes plunder.)

So passing a good amendment would help mightily with education in and promotion of correct principles of Liberty.



The first 10 amendments are from God through the founding fathers. But all the other amendments after the first 10 which are God's creation has been a train wreck

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:05 pm

BrianM wrote:Thanks for what?
Thanks for the forum, of course.
BrianM wrote:Are you going to continue to make inappropriate comments towards others even after I have warned you for it? (RE: your comment to "freedomforall": "You look ridiculous")
I feel I made an honest comment. But I guess not all truth needs to be said at all times :)

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:12 pm

David13 wrote:The bad thing about changing the Constitution is then everybody wants to change it to suit whatever, and today we have perversions that seek, yes, sexual perversions that seek legal, spiritual and moral approval.
And every other possible change, rider, amendment, etc., to put forth whatever the politically correct agenda of the day is.
And you end up with a mess.
So if you really don't think the government freeloaders should be "entitled" what you want to do is strictly construe the Constitution and make the amendment process as difficult as possible so that very very very few changes are ever made.
dc
In fact it would've been better that the eternal immutable principles of Liberty and Justice were stated in the Constitution, and could not be changed afterwards. But unfortunately, those principles were not clearly and fully understood at the time of writing of the original Constitution; but now we have the benefit of 200 years of history, and greater light and knowledge available on the subject, so those principles can finally be definitively stated, and incorporated into the Constitution.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:33 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
BrianM wrote:Thanks for what?
Thanks for the forum, of course.
BrianM wrote:Are you going to continue to make inappropriate comments towards others even after I have warned you for it? (RE: your comment to "freedomforall": "You look ridiculous")
I feel I made an honest comment. But I guess not all truth needs to be said at all times :)

When you get kicked off the forum then we'll see who has the truth behind them. You just plain do not know when to quit. I do not appreciate your cocky attitude nor your cocky labels you place on others for your own self aggrandizing gain. I think you better quit while you're behind.
And you show just how much you love others by punching them right in the stomach, huh? By saying:
LoveIsTruth wrote:Ezra and freedomfighter, even though we disagree on points of doctrine, I still regard you as friends and brothers in the Gospel. Please know of my love and respect for you. Thank you for your love of the Gospel, Liberty, and country. Best wishes to both of you.


And then you stick to saying I look ridiculous with emphasis when you say: I feel I made an honest comment. But I guess not all truth needs to be said at all times.

I can really sense the love shown with this garbage coming out of your mouth in mind.
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To the very best of my recollection...I don't remember!

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby Ezra » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:13 pm

I've heard it said that the kingdoms of heaven will be filled by us seperating ourselfs out with those who we feel comfortable with and likeminded with.

Those who don't know God won't feel comfortable with him. And leave. God won't cast them out they will cast themselfs out. All while God is pleading for them to repent and come into him. To stay. They will leave because they don't know him.

Ohh they think they do I'm sure many will think they do. But they don't. And no unclean thing will stay.

It's important to know gods will and ways. If you have not spent your life in persuit of that knowlegde you will be numbered with those whom the lords says "I know you not"

Lov. I honestly feel your missing out on the important things in life with your persuits.

Make a list of the most important accomplishments you could make in this life to build that personal relationship with God.
And then do those things first. Frist change yourself.
Then help others to do the same.

Then look to see what eles can be done.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby BrianM » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:36 pm

LoveIsTruth wrote:
BrianM wrote:Thanks for what?
Thanks for the forum, of course.
BrianM wrote:Are you going to continue to make inappropriate comments towards others even after I have warned you for it? (RE: your comment to "freedomforall": "You look ridiculous")
I feel I made an honest comment. But I guess not all truth needs to be said at all times :)

What I was trying to tell you earlier, in the warning, is that you don't need to make personal attacks against others when trying share ideas, opinions, make a point, etc. Just say what you want to say without putting others down (without calling people 'ridiculous' and whatever else you might have said).
All my opinions are tentative pending further data...

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby BrianM » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:06 pm

I guess I'll chime in on this topic.

I don't agree with all of the amendments to the Constitution but the original Constitution with the Bill of Rights I believe is inspired and accepted by the Lord.

In D&C 101 (77-80) the Lord stated the "constitution ... should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles.."

and that He "established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose". That purpose being protection of our rights, and that we might have our moral agency preserved and not be in bondage one to another.

This part about the Constitution preserving our moral agency is actually very important and sometimes not well understood. The way it does that it was supposed to keep the Federal government out of everyone's business and allowing individual states, cities and communities the freedom to enforce their own standard. If followed, the result would be like 50 'mini-nations' all experimenting on Freedom and learning from each other by their successes and failures. Allowing men their agency to fail or succeed and to associate with communities that upheld their own moral beliefs.

The flaw is in men - they don't actually follow the Constitution or the proper role of government.

Joseph Smith said it's only flaw is basically that it wasn't broad enough in enforcing its provisions in regards to those who neglect it. But the thing is, and I think Joseph knew this, it's not a flaw in the Constitution but in men. If the elected officials don't follow the Constitution and the people don't hold them accountable there is no law or amendment that is going to change that. If they are already not following the established law it would do no good to enact another law requiring them to obey the law they are already ignoring. (That's why it's so ridiculous that people are calling for a balanced budget amendment - that won't solve the problem).

Joseph prayed that the Constitution would be established forever ( http://www.latterdayconservative.com/quote/dc-10954/ ) and said that he is "the greatest advocate of the Constitution of the United States there is on the earth."

I was trying to find a source for what I recall reading about Joseph Smith attempting to re-write the Constitution.. Found this on a blog (there's a more official source somewhere, but for now):
Did you know that Joseph Smith attempted to rewrite the US Constitution? Yes, he did. And he also attempted to have some of the apostles do so as well. They struggled with it. Joseph Smith struggled with it. As such he went to the Lord and asked, “what shall I change?” As a result of his query we have the 98th section of the Doctrine and Covenants. “…whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.” D&C 98:7


"Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn."
All my opinions are tentative pending further data...

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:38 am

While campaigning for President of the United States in 1844, Smith had opportunity to take political positions on issues of the day. Smith considered the U.S. Constitution, and especially the Bill of Rights, to be inspired by God and "the [Latter Day] Saints' best and perhaps only defense"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith
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To the very best of my recollection...I don't remember!

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:03 am

BrianM wrote:I guess I'll chime in on this topic.
Excellent.

BrianM wrote:I don't agree with all of the amendments to the Constitution but the original Constitution with the Bill of Rights I believe is inspired and accepted by the Lord.
I believe so too.

BrianM wrote:In D&C 101 (77-80) the Lord stated the "constitution ... should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles.."

and that He "established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose". That purpose being protection of our rights, and that we might have our moral agency preserved and not be in bondage one to another.
Would you then agree that the amendment that explicitly forbade slavery was in harmony with that purpose, and improved the original Constitution, which was specifically crafted to allow slavery (with its 3/5th compromise and the founders being slave-holders before and after the adoption of the Constitution)?

BrianM wrote:This part about the Constitution preserving our moral agency is actually very important and sometimes not well understood. The way it does that it was supposed to keep the Federal government out of everyone's business and allowing individual states, cities and communities the freedom to enforce their own standard. If followed, the result would be like 50 'mini-nations' all experimenting on Freedom and learning from each other by their successes and failures. Allowing men their agency to fail or succeed and to associate with communities that upheld their own moral beliefs.
That is a good point and I agree with it.

BrianM wrote:The flaw is in men - they don't actually follow the Constitution or the proper role of government.
Would you agree that better laws help people to be better, and that bad laws encourage them to be bad?

BrianM wrote:Joseph Smith said it's only flaw is basically that it wasn't broad enough in enforcing its provisions in regards to those who neglect it.
Still a flaw though, isn't it? And if a flaw then improvement is possible.

Have we not seen the need for that in the last 200 years? Why should it be a surprise that as the understanding of people increases, their laws become better? (I do wish the understanding of the founders was perfect from the beginning, (and I don't blame them for doing the best they knew how), then the Constitution would have been perfect from the beginning, but it wasn't. And even if it was, if more justice can be put into it, seeing there is a desperate need for it, why not do it, to make it a stronger instrument in the fight for Justice and Liberty?)

BrianM wrote:But the thing is, and I think Joseph knew this, it's not a flaw in the Constitution but in men.
It is both. It is a flaw in the Constitution AND in men. One helps and amplifies the other.

BrianM wrote:If the elected officials don't follow the Constitution and the people don't hold them accountable there is no law or amendment that is going to change that.
But would you agree that it would be easier for the people to keep the officials accountable if the Constitution explicitly forbade certain key perversions of the government which now it almost allows? (For example: it did not say "there will be slavery" but it allowed it. It did not also say "the government shall plunder private property" but it left the door thrown wide open for it, with overly broad taxation clauses like "The Congress shall have power to ... lay and collect taxes...").

I don't think the founders themselves understood the proper place of taxation, that one can only rightly tax the things he owns, (like charging rent for use of them etc), and nothing else. That the public government can only rightly tax the things it owns, i.e. public property and nothing else. To tax private property of someone is to violate it, by definition. You don't own it, you cannot tax it, -- it is not yours.

Neither did the founders fully understand the absolute nature of the prohibition against violation of private property, such violation being the very definition of evil itself, and thus is always wrong in all circumstances, no matter what majority voted for it.

This very important and key weakness in the Constitution must be fix, if the Country is to survive, because this legalized plunder, that is public taxation of private property is the root of all evil in the government, that empowered all the vices and predations of the state including war-state, welfare-state, police-state, and corruption of the monetary system (because interestingly, corruption of the monetary system by government is impossible without using taxation to discourage alternative currencies, which, if allowed to flourish, would kill fiat monetary system with its legalized counterfeiting via free competition in currencies).

In all cases, it is the false premise that private property may be violated by the majority, that is the root of all evil in government, from which all other government evils are derived.

I say it again: violation of private property is the very definition of evil itself, and good is nothing more or less than private property. (Hence the name "goods," and Hans Hoppe's joke that the plundering government produces only "bads" :) because it violates private property.)

BrianM wrote:If they are already not following the established law it would do no good to enact another law requiring them to obey the law they are already ignoring.

That is actually not true. You are ignoring the educational and convincing power of the law, (because in the final analysis persuasion is everything). You are missing a key point of the fact that the ONLY way for a tiny minority to plunder an overwhelming majority (like 300 million people) is to deceive them into compliance "for the greater good" so that they would consent to be plundered.

Disabuse them of the lie, and the consent of the many evaporates, and with it the ability of the very few to plunder the many.

The Constitution can and should be such banner, blazing and exposing to the sky the lie, forbidding legalized plunder, i.e. violation of private property in all of its forms, including and especially public taxation and public regulation of private property.

The only thing the public has the right to regulate is public property, taking care of nuisances, because they own the public property, but they have no right to regulate private property, because they do not own it.

The only just public law that governs private property is this one: "Private Property shall not be violated." All other public laws governing private property are unjust, because no one, and no group no matter the size, have the right to govern what they do not own.

Can you imagine what this country would be like if language like this was a part of the Constitution? Would it then have been possible for so few to deceive and to plunder so many?

I say it again, the only way for the few to plunder the many is to deceive them into compliance "for their own good," so that they would believe that somehow, on some level, the plunder is justified. Expose the lie, and the plunder stops. Remove such believe, and the consent evaporates, and with it the ability of the very few to plunder the very many.

Truth has infinite power. And if understood, it does make people free.

The Constitution MUST contain the truth, or it will become worthless in the fight for Liberty. Hence the wisdom of God in making sure the Constitution could be amended and improved, and then revealing a more perfect understanding of the laws of Justice and Liberty so they could be eventually incorporated into the Constitution, thus fulfilling the mandate that God gave that the "constitution ... should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles..." (D&C 101:77-80), while the original Constitution allowed slavery. Hence was the need to improve it, and it was partially improved with the 13th amendment, which explicitly forbade slavery, in perfect harmony, in that point, with the word of God.

And so it must be improved further to forbid any and all violations of private property by the government, especially public taxation and regulation of private property, which is a violation of private property by definition, and therefore is unjust, and must not be allowed if Liberty is to exist and the country to survive and prosper.

BrianM wrote:(That's why it's so ridiculous that people are calling for a balanced budget amendment - that won't solve the problem).
It would actually help. It would be a positive step. It would be much harder to lie that "deficits don't matter." And it would make easier to sue government officials for putting the public into debt, and remove them from the office. The more clear the law is, the better it could be used to enforce it. Remember, persuasion is everything. That's what rules the world.

BrianM wrote:Joseph prayed that the Constitution would be established forever ( http://www.latterdayconservative.com/quote/dc-10954/ ) and said that he is "the greatest advocate of the Constitution of the United States there is on the earth."

I was trying to find a source for what I recall reading about Joseph Smith attempting to re-write the Constitution.. Found this on a blog (there's a more official source somewhere, but for now):
Did you know that Joseph Smith attempted to rewrite the US Constitution? Yes, he did. And he also attempted to have some of the apostles do so as well. They struggled with it. Joseph Smith struggled with it. As such he went to the Lord and asked, “what shall I change?” As a result of his query we have the 98th section of the Doctrine and Covenants. “…whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.” D&C 98:7

"Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn."

More or less than what? Than the law supporting "principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges." It does not mean the Constitution is perfect and cannot or should not be improved. Indeed it has been improved by the 13th amendment: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." This is in perfect accord with the word of the Lord "it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another." (D&C 101:79)

Joseph struggled with improving the Constitution because he did not understand perfectly the principle that private property is the definition of justice and liberty, and that violation of private property is the very definition of evil. This is why D&C 134 is only a declaration of belief, instead of a declaration of finalized and immutable doctrine.
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby freedomforall » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:42 pm

If people lived their lives as God wants them to there would be no need for improving the Constitution. Satan is the guy who wants to force people to obey. This is not God's way. Forced obedience is what Nazi Germany practiced. God already said that he had the Constitution written so slavery would eventually stop...and it did. Likewise, the Israelites were in bondage four around 400 years before Moses came along and freed them.
Righteousness is what is needed in order for every man to have his own property without someone coming along and taking it from them or even attempting to...just like in Nevada. The government has no business running the lives of a free people. It is evil minded people that have made life miserable for the rest until now evil doings are more commonplace. Want a better Constitution? Fix the people. The Constitution was to be for a righteous republic nothing else. God has a place all set up for the wicked, because they didn't see fit to obey his commandments. But even he will not force people into obedience, but he can sure make their life miserable.
I like what John Taylor said when he told us that the Constitutions should be taught to our children, intact, pure and unadulterated. So if, if Joseph had said anything to the contrary, JT didn't agree with it either. No one can change the Constitution and then claim it is intact and unadulterated. I fully believe that if God had wanted it written a different way, he'd had someone do it way before now.
President Benson told us outright that God placed his stamp approval on the Constitution and I stick with him.

President Benson tells us what we must do. For those who say he is full of it do so at their own peril.

GUESS WHO

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION.

To the very best of my recollection...I don't remember!

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Re: The Fundamental Principles of Liberty

Postby LoveIsTruth » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:21 pm

freedomforall wrote:If people lived their lives as God wants them to there would be no need for improving the Constitution. Satan is the guy who wants to force people to obey. This is not God's way. Forced obedience is what Nazi Germany practiced. God already said that he had the Constitution written so slavery would eventually stop...and it did. Likewise, the Israelites were in bondage four around 400 years before Moses came along and freed them.
Righteousness is what is needed in order for every man to have his own property without someone coming along and taking it from them or even attempting to...just like in Nevada. The government has no business running the lives of a free people. It is evil minded people that have made life miserable for the rest until now evil doings are more commonplace. Want a better Constitution? Fix the people. The Constitution was to be for a righteous republic nothing else. God has a place all set up for the wicked, because they didn't see fit to obey his commandments. But even he will not force people into obedience, but he can sure make their life miserable.
I like what John Taylor said when he told us that the Constitutions should be taught to our children, intact, pure and unadulterated. So if, if Joseph had said anything to the contrary, JT didn't agree with it either. No one can change the Constitution and then claim it is intact and unadulterated. I fully believe that if God had wanted it written a different way, he'd had someone do it way before now.
President Benson told us outright that God placed his stamp approval on the Constitution and I stick with him.

President Benson tells us what we must do. For those who say he is full of it do so at their own peril.

God also put a stamp of approval upon the Bible. It didn't mean the Book of Mormon should not have come forth.

    "A [Constitution]! A [Constitution]! We have got a [Constitution], and there cannot be any more [Constitution].
    But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, ... murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? ... And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; ... Wherefore, because that ye have [the Constitution] ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written." (2 Nephi 29: 3-10) "For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have." (2 Nephi 28:30).

Unless we accept more of God's words into the Constitution, it will be taken away from us.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 11:15)

:)


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