Official declaration number one: "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. "
Says the Prophet will never lead us astray, but leaves everyone else out of the equation
Going through GospeLink, I have found dozens of references to the Prophet never leading the Church astray, but that promise is conspicuously absent concerning any others. to say it wouldn't happen again has no basis in fact. It has never been said. It is said the Church will never again be taken from the earth, but it is not said there wont be any that don't try their best to make it happen
Joseph Smith said, "I will give you a key that will never rust,--if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray" It implies that there could come a point where there were a portion of the apostles that may cause some concern of which way to go. He said, stick with the majority.
I know I have heard other more quotes, but for some reason can't find them right now.
Constitution at BYU
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WhisperFox
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"Joseph Smith The Prophet", by Truman Madsen,
"In the midst of the leadership struggle, the apostasy of a group in Nauvoo led by William Law and the claim of others to have special prerogatives of leadership, he said, "I will give you a key that will never rust." This is a test. "If you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.""
"Not one offshoot group can pass that test. How many were on the stand, for example, at Nauvoo in August 1844, after the Prophet's death, when Sidney Rigdon wanted to be the guardian and, in effect, the leader of the Church? How many of the Twelve were on the stand when the decision was made to follow the Twelve? There were seven, a bare majority (John Taylor was recovering from his wounds, and four had not yet come back from missions to the East). "
"Again and again, in Church history the Twelve in unity have made the revelatory decisions, under the prophet, which have been binding upon us all."
"And the records? Which records are most important? Likely, I suggest, the records of temple ordinances. We have them, we preserve them, and they are a mark of authentic transmission of divine authority and power to our day."
***
Words of William G. Nelson: I have heard the Prophet speak in public on many occasions. In one meeting I heard him say: "I will give you a key that will never rust if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray." (Hyrum L. Andrus and Helen Mae Andrus, comps., They Knew the Prophet, p. 119)
***
There are many other references to the Prophet's similar statements. His reference to "a key that will never rust" is a term he used when he taught a doctrine that was not just for his day but would be important in future times and could be relied upon repeatedly in the future.
He referenced many times following a "majority" of the 12. That implies that the quorum would be divided. Repeatedly in history, individual members of the 12 have been deceived. This happened as recently as the early 20th century when two more apostatized while members of the quorum.
It would be naive for us to believe that in the last days this wouldn't be a problem too. If your question is about "almost a majority", then that it nit picking at his post, but that did happen in Brigham's day at the death of Joseph. Could it happen again? Yes. We are not more righteous than they.
"In the midst of the leadership struggle, the apostasy of a group in Nauvoo led by William Law and the claim of others to have special prerogatives of leadership, he said, "I will give you a key that will never rust." This is a test. "If you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.""
"Not one offshoot group can pass that test. How many were on the stand, for example, at Nauvoo in August 1844, after the Prophet's death, when Sidney Rigdon wanted to be the guardian and, in effect, the leader of the Church? How many of the Twelve were on the stand when the decision was made to follow the Twelve? There were seven, a bare majority (John Taylor was recovering from his wounds, and four had not yet come back from missions to the East). "
"Again and again, in Church history the Twelve in unity have made the revelatory decisions, under the prophet, which have been binding upon us all."
"And the records? Which records are most important? Likely, I suggest, the records of temple ordinances. We have them, we preserve them, and they are a mark of authentic transmission of divine authority and power to our day."
***
Words of William G. Nelson: I have heard the Prophet speak in public on many occasions. In one meeting I heard him say: "I will give you a key that will never rust if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray." (Hyrum L. Andrus and Helen Mae Andrus, comps., They Knew the Prophet, p. 119)
***
There are many other references to the Prophet's similar statements. His reference to "a key that will never rust" is a term he used when he taught a doctrine that was not just for his day but would be important in future times and could be relied upon repeatedly in the future.
He referenced many times following a "majority" of the 12. That implies that the quorum would be divided. Repeatedly in history, individual members of the 12 have been deceived. This happened as recently as the early 20th century when two more apostatized while members of the quorum.
It would be naive for us to believe that in the last days this wouldn't be a problem too. If your question is about "almost a majority", then that it nit picking at his post, but that did happen in Brigham's day at the death of Joseph. Could it happen again? Yes. We are not more righteous than they.
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Mark
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He referenced many times following a "majority" of the 12. That implies that the quorum would be divided. Repeatedly in history, individual members of the 12 have been deceived. This happened as recently as the early 20th century when two more apostatized while members of the quorum.
That is your speculation WhisperFox on what this implication actually translates into as reality in our day. There is a danger in thinking that the quorum will be divided based on this implication of division in the last days imo. Some members will be looking for individual quorum members to say things that do not necessarily agree with their own agendas and then will point to this type of speculation and create in their own minds a division in the quorum. We have already had implication here about Elder Oaks and his tax and government statements and this will happen again and again. MFJ loves to stir up the pot about this division or that. He already did so with Elder Cooks appointment to the quorum. Prophets do not always agree with our own individual pet projects on any one subject but that doesn't necessarily make them divided as a quorum in the important work of the Lord. I am not trying to nitpick but only say this to point out potential pitfalls that could occur with some members who are looking for division. I know a number of apostates who made a living out of saying that the 1st Presidency was divided during the latter days of Pres. Bensons administration. They now belong to some Manti offshoot group. Can you see my point?
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WhisperFox
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"Can you see my point?" Not really. Just the opposite but perhaps that is in the weakness of our written words instead of the actual intent.
What was posted was that we follow the majority of the 12, and the prophet. I find it interesting that, as a living prophet, Joseph didn't give us a 'key' of "follow the prophet", but "follow the majority of the 12".
Wilford Woodruff, as a prophet, did tell us to follow the prophet. I believe they are both right, but that there will be times when one or the other will be important.
Ezra Taft Benson gave us a few more keys. "Sometimes we hear someone refer to a division in the Church. In reality, the Church is not divided. It simply means that there are some who, for the time being at least, are members of the Church but not in harmony with it. These people have a temporary membership and influence in the Church; but unless they repent, they will be missing when the final membership records are recorded."
"It is well that our people understand this principle, so they will not be misled by those apostates within the Church who have not yet repented or been cut off. But there is a cleansing coming. The Lord says that his vengeance shall be poured out 'upon the inhabitants of the earth.... And upon my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me.... '(D&C 112:24-26.) I look forward to that cleansing; its need within the Church is becoming increasingly apparent."
"The Lord strengthened the faith of the early apostles by pointing out Judas as a traitor, even before this apostle had completed his iniquitous work. So also in our day the Lord has told us of the tares within the wheat that will eventually be hewn down when they are fully ripe. But until they are hewn down, they will be with us, amongst us." (Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of ETB, and also General Conference, April 1969)
That isn't speculation, that is what they teach us. It doesn't teach us to "watch for division" or to stir the pot like MFJ if we observe what we think is division. It reminds us that there will be divisions someday, and gives us an important key to help us keep from being deceived.
The original post was about a member of the Quorum of the Seventy's remarks later Elder Oak's comments. If some of their comments don't square with my personal beliefs I have an obligation, but it isn't to challenge them publicly and look for feedback from the world, this forum, or other members of the church to defend my position or to determine which is right.
We have each been called to listen, ponder, pray, and test what they teach us. We each have an obligation to receive divine personal revelation regarding their teachings. We needn't concern ourselves with correcting them if we don't receive this confirmation.
God didn't call any of us to censure one of His 70's or one of His apostles or His prophet, to steady the ark, or to decide if he was out of line for the rest of the church. The Lord has called others to do that.
I do have an obligation to receive that revelation for myself, my family and within my priesthood stewardship.
What was posted was that we follow the majority of the 12, and the prophet. I find it interesting that, as a living prophet, Joseph didn't give us a 'key' of "follow the prophet", but "follow the majority of the 12".
Wilford Woodruff, as a prophet, did tell us to follow the prophet. I believe they are both right, but that there will be times when one or the other will be important.
Ezra Taft Benson gave us a few more keys. "Sometimes we hear someone refer to a division in the Church. In reality, the Church is not divided. It simply means that there are some who, for the time being at least, are members of the Church but not in harmony with it. These people have a temporary membership and influence in the Church; but unless they repent, they will be missing when the final membership records are recorded."
"It is well that our people understand this principle, so they will not be misled by those apostates within the Church who have not yet repented or been cut off. But there is a cleansing coming. The Lord says that his vengeance shall be poured out 'upon the inhabitants of the earth.... And upon my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me.... '(D&C 112:24-26.) I look forward to that cleansing; its need within the Church is becoming increasingly apparent."
"The Lord strengthened the faith of the early apostles by pointing out Judas as a traitor, even before this apostle had completed his iniquitous work. So also in our day the Lord has told us of the tares within the wheat that will eventually be hewn down when they are fully ripe. But until they are hewn down, they will be with us, amongst us." (Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of ETB, and also General Conference, April 1969)
That isn't speculation, that is what they teach us. It doesn't teach us to "watch for division" or to stir the pot like MFJ if we observe what we think is division. It reminds us that there will be divisions someday, and gives us an important key to help us keep from being deceived.
The original post was about a member of the Quorum of the Seventy's remarks later Elder Oak's comments. If some of their comments don't square with my personal beliefs I have an obligation, but it isn't to challenge them publicly and look for feedback from the world, this forum, or other members of the church to defend my position or to determine which is right.
We have each been called to listen, ponder, pray, and test what they teach us. We each have an obligation to receive divine personal revelation regarding their teachings. We needn't concern ourselves with correcting them if we don't receive this confirmation.
God didn't call any of us to censure one of His 70's or one of His apostles or His prophet, to steady the ark, or to decide if he was out of line for the rest of the church. The Lord has called others to do that.
I do have an obligation to receive that revelation for myself, my family and within my priesthood stewardship.
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HeirofNumenor
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I have also read something similar about 10 years ago, after trying to help a fellow student who swore that the Brethren had fallen, and the polyg's were the "one mighty and strong".Quote:
The Prophet will not, and the majority of the 12 will not, BUT there will be instances where almost the majority or one or two will seek to lead others astray.
As I recall, the statement was something like this:
"Look to the Brethren. The Lord will never let his Prophet lead you astray. It is possible that one or two of the highest authorities may apostatize in the future, but the Lord will never let a majority of the First Presidency and the 12 lead the Church astray" [or a quorum =7 of 12, or 9 of 15 needed to act officially].
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natasha
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Re: Constitution at BYU
I am relatively new to this forum, but I have to say that some of the comments I read have a "bad spirit" about them. I can't really explain that...just a feeling I get. Elder Boyd K. Packer gave a very powerful talk on May 18, 1993. It's titled a "Talk to the All-Church Coordinating Council". I would like to quote from that talk: "Surely you have been anxiously watching the worldwide evaporation of values and standards from politics, government, society, entertainment, schools. Could you be serving in the Church without having turned to those pages in the revelations and to those statements of the prophets that speak of the last days? Could you, in working for the Church, not be conscious of or have ignored the warnings? Could you be blind to the drift that is taking place? Are you not conscious of the drift that is taking place in the Church? Could you believe other than it is critical that all of us work together and set aside personal interests and all face the same way? It is so easy to be turned about without realizing that it has happened to us. There are three areas where members of the Church, influenced by social and political unrest, are being caught up and led away. I chose these three because they have made major invasions into the membership of the Church. In each, the temptation is for us to turn about and face the wrong way, and it is hard to resist, for doing it seems so reasonable and right. The dangers I speak of come from the gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement (both of which are relatively new), and the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals. Our local leaders must deal with all three of them with ever-increasing frequency. In each case, the members who are hurting have the conviction that the Church somehow is doing something wrong to members or that the Church is not doing enough for them." I will end quoting here and just say that I found it most interesting that Elder Packer thought that one of the three areas that he thought members were being "caught up and led away" was the "ever present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals. I really think we need to stop for a moment and "listen" to some of the things that have been said on this forum. Like, Mark, who I think has outlined some of the best principles that we need to remember....we will not be led astray by the First Presidency or the Quorum of the Twelve. I noted there was some criticism of Elder Oaks talk on the Constitution. I guess I am just pretty simple minded. A couple of months ago during a fast and testimony meeting in my Ward, a young husband and father stood and expressed his concern that sometimes we get overly concerned about things that "dead prophets" have said. Not that they aren't important or true, but then he said....our duty is to listen to those prophets, seers, and revelators who are here for us NOW. That's the bottom line for me along with studying the scriptures and praying for wisdom.
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ShineOn
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Re: Constitution at BYU
I got a bad feeling when I heard Samuelson's talk on the Constitution. It was not consistent with what other church leaders have said in their official capacities, and it did not match the scriptures (what the Lord says about the Constitution in the D&C). So what do I do?
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Bircher
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Re: Constitution at BYU
The Prophets are talking to us NOW, and have not changed their message regarding freedom. This whole saying that we should not fight for freedom anymore because they did not put out a letter THIS week is bogus.
As for what to do about Samuelson's talk. D&C101 teaches a parable of the fig tree and the watchmen, then gives us our charge today.
As for what to do about Samuelson's talk. D&C101 teaches a parable of the fig tree and the watchmen, then gives us our charge today.
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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Constitution at BYU
Natasha, I encourage you to read the talk by Elder Oaks you referenced and note that he points out himself that what he says IS NOT DOCTRINAL, but is his OPINION. If we are detractors, I must say no more than he himself who detracted from it himself first by qualifiying it in such terms which is quite unusual for the brethren to do!
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natasha
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Re: Constitution at BYU
O.K. guys....help me here! It seems that I so often hear that a particular talk is not to be considered "doctrinal"....and I hear that most often by those who "seem" to be making themselves feel better because they disagree. A lot of stuff I read on this forum has been "intellectualized" to the point that I hardly recognize the doctrine anymore. I have been most impressed by the comments of our member named Mark. I don't know who he is, or where he lives...but I admire his spiritual and down to earth simplification of those things that were not meant to be as difficult as we make them. As for Elder Oaks....not only is he an Apostle of the Lord...he is also considered an expert in his particular field of law. Before we are so quick to label something "not doctrinal", I think it would be wise to "ponder and pray". I might add...having been guilty in the past of doing this, I know how easy it is to "pray for the answer you have already concluded before taking it to the Lord in prayer". I have lived, probably, a lot longer than most of you who post here....I don't know that for sure....but I would bet that that it's true. In my "many years" of travel through life I have found that it is best that we listen carefully to those whom we refer to as "the Brethren" and NOT be so quick to label "not doctrinal". Our lives and thoughts are made up of "opinions"...formed sometimes by experience...sometimes by intense study....and in the end, hopefully, through prayer. And if through prayer we come to opposing opinions...what then? Someone is wrong. I use to "react" to things....now, because of so many reactions that have proven foolish....I try to sit back for awhile....think...and that good old addage we have heard from the pulpit many times..."search, ponder, and pray". I hope we are all doing that.
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ShineOn
- captain of 100
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Re: Constitution at BYU
It's not an issue of not taking enough time to ponder over something.natasha wrote:O.K. guys....help me here! It seems that I so often hear that a particular talk is not to be considered "doctrinal"....and I hear that most often by those who "seem" to be making themselves feel better because they disagree. A lot of stuff I read on this forum has been "intellectualized" to the point that I hardly recognize the doctrine anymore. I have been most impressed by the comments of our member named Mark. I don't know who he is, or where he lives...but I admire his spiritual and down to earth simplification of those things that were not meant to be as difficult as we make them. As for Elder Oaks....not only is he an Apostle of the Lord...he is also considered an expert in his particular field of law. Before we are so quick to label something "not doctrinal", I think it would be wise to "ponder and pray". I might add...having been guilty in the past of doing this, I know how easy it is to "pray for the answer you have already concluded before taking it to the Lord in prayer". I have lived, probably, a lot longer than most of you who post here....I don't know that for sure....but I would bet that that it's true. In my "many years" of travel through life I have found that it is best that we listen carefully to those whom we refer to as "the Brethren" and NOT be so quick to label "not doctrinal". Our lives and thoughts are made up of "opinions"...formed sometimes by experience...sometimes by intense study....and in the end, hopefully, through prayer. And if through prayer we come to opposing opinions...what then? Someone is wrong. I use to "react" to things....now, because of so many reactions that have proven foolish....I try to sit back for awhile....think...and that good old addage we have heard from the pulpit many times..."search, ponder, and pray". I hope we are all doing that.
I love Church correlation, BTW. If it isn't said by a general officer in their official capacity being cleared by the other general officers, I don't consider it necessarily doctrine to start with, and I'm not accountable to heed or believe it. That goes for Benson's books, too, BTW (and Verlan Andersen's), although I agree with them. So if several talks over the years by various genreal church officers in general conference all agree with each other, and some other general officer gives their own view on something and it doesn't agree with the others, then I guess it's not doctrinal, regardless of his former profession. But this also doesn't mean I don't like the guy or don't sustain him, just that the things in the talk aren't doctrine.
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Proud 2b Peculiar
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Re: Constitution at BYU
31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
41 Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.
D&C 5: 35.
35 And if thou art faithful in keeping my commandments, thou shalt be lifted up at the last day. Amen.
D&C 9: 14.
14 Stand fast in the work wherewith I have called you, and a hair of your head shall not be lost, and you shall be lifted up at the last day. Amen.
D&C 27: 18.
18 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of my Spirit, which I will pour out upon you, and my word which I reveal unto you, and be agreed as touching all things whatsoever ye ask of me, and be faithful until I come, and ye shall be caught up, that where I am ye shall be also. Amen.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
41 Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.
D&C 5: 35.
35 And if thou art faithful in keeping my commandments, thou shalt be lifted up at the last day. Amen.
D&C 9: 14.
14 Stand fast in the work wherewith I have called you, and a hair of your head shall not be lost, and you shall be lifted up at the last day. Amen.
D&C 27: 18.
18 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of my Spirit, which I will pour out upon you, and my word which I reveal unto you, and be agreed as touching all things whatsoever ye ask of me, and be faithful until I come, and ye shall be caught up, that where I am ye shall be also. Amen.
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jbalm
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Mark
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Re: Constitution at BYU
JB,
I was just thinking what a profoundly insightful and perceptive women natasha is. You are just jealous mate. 8)
I was just thinking what a profoundly insightful and perceptive women natasha is. You are just jealous mate. 8)
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natasha
- captain of 1,000
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Re: Constitution at BYU
Mark and Jbalm: You guys make me giggle! O.K...guess we better get back on topic...unless of course someone wants to start a new thread for Mark and me...entitled..."We belong to a mutual...admiration society"...for those of you who are old as dirt like me and remember the song with that line in it!
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AussieOi
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Re: Constitution at BYU
I'll just keep my head over here in a bucket while you guy shave a love-in.
LoveChrist, I know those scriptures, can you help me by explaining how those scriptures apply to this discussion at hand. my brain isn't quite working at the moment
thanks
LoveChrist, I know those scriptures, can you help me by explaining how those scriptures apply to this discussion at hand. my brain isn't quite working at the moment
thanks
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Proud 2b Peculiar
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Re: Constitution at BYU
Well I posted it for 2 reasons
1. The Lord's Doctrine
2. We are not preaching doctrine here all the time. And since there was the comment that we needed to be preaching the doctrine, I posted some.
I was being a bit cheeky
1. The Lord's Doctrine
2. We are not preaching doctrine here all the time. And since there was the comment that we needed to be preaching the doctrine, I posted some.
I was being a bit cheeky
