Secession and the US/Constitution being inspired

[Rock34]

I was wondering how the church stands on secessionist groups such as Vermont, New Hampshire, Neo-Confederates, Republic of Texas, California Republic, Alaskan Independence Party, and a few other groups. I think as the US wanes in power, and anarchy starts to reign, these types of groups will become more legit and the land will become more subdivided. Which may be good or bad, depending on where one stands on the issues.

Also, Deseret was kind of a nation (in the wild, previously unsettled Northern parts of old Mexican territory) before it was granted United States territorial status, and given non-Mormon leaders. Polygamy was discontinued because the US imprisoned leaders and the leadership wanted Utah to become a state. So to say Mormons were never in the least bit secessionist is ignoring our church's history.

Is it possible to defend the Constitution and be supporters of secessionist movements that wish to break off from the Union but keep a similar constitution for their prospective countries?

Personally, I think the Constitution can still be viewed as an inspired model for "2nd-generation" countries formed from the present United States. I think the Union is getting uncontrollable for a democracy at 300M people and counting, and partially why the country is turning more socialist. Some states are "800-lb gorillas" in terms of Congressional representation, electoral votes, and overall cultural influence. These states include California, Texas, and New York; with Florida on the rise.

Another reason I can see mass secession happening is the general cultural division of the USA. True, there may be superficial similarities throughout the country (just like there is in Europe, Africa, Asia, or any other continent with similar groups), but many substantial differences exist. Just see red state/blue state, and other maps. An author from the early 80s made this the subject of a book, titled Nine Nations of North America. It may be a little different now, but I think the general themes remain the same in North America.

I guess one of the main questions is how big is too big for a country? India and China are the only two countries bigger, and their ancient cultural, ethnic, and political foundations, coupled with non-democratic traditions, makes them a little more unified. The United States wasn't a "traditional" country, but rather a giant group of immigrants, many of which separated into 'groups' upon settling the country. What may have worked for this immigrant pool when the numbers were 100M or less, seems to not be working for the present Union.

I'd also see groups like the EU and NAU as good if they aren't used as a stepping stones for world dictatorship and policing. There's a fine line between a simple federation and an empire that tries to merge all countries into one. (like the Borg from Star Trek). If there was an NAU, secessionist groups could probably be viewed as less threatening to North American democracy and general unity. It would just mean there is 2 or more countries where there was once 1.

An alternative to secession is giving states more rights and self-governing power, but if they are given too much, it's not much different from state secession.

See also: Wiki article on active secessionist groups

[sisyphus]

Rock, with all respect to your opinion and honest statements......

My simple answer is that The Constitution is a document inspired by The Living God and brought forth into the minds and hands of mortal men for the purpose of establishing a nation whose principles, laws and statutes would present a favorable climate in which conditions would lend toward all people under its protection being better able to exercize their free agency and thus have accountability for their actions in this life. One of the great blessings of this would be the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

If The Constitution (or the perverted "interpretation" of it) hadn't been diluted, tampered with and outrightly ignored by those who have sworn to uphold and preserve it we would not have the problems in the nation and world we now are witnessing.

There is no reason a nation of our size and population cannot only survive and prosper, but even the entire world would be able to do the same if the principles of the U.S. Constitution were established and observed diligently. This, of course, assuming people also embraced the Gospel of Jesus Christ directly, or lived by principles which every child of God may have understanding of through the influence of The Holy Ghost.

Any division of the country will ultimately be the result of not living righteously and not virtuously upholding the law of the land in its entirety. These other "fixes" presented to us by current political maneuvering and demagoguery by the LDG's and their minions are only axe cuts at the root of the tree of liberty and we'll all see the fruits of them in our own lifetimes, for they will be manifestations of all the horrors depicted in scripture and modern revelation.

[HeirofNumenor]

My simple answer is that The Constitution is a document inspired by The Living God and brought forth into the minds and hands of mortal men for the purpose of establishing a nation whose principles, laws and statutes would present a favorable climate in which conditions would lend toward all people under its protection being better able to exercize their free agency and thus have accountability for their actions in this life. One of the great blessings of this would be the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I have to agree.

I take issue with the Libertarian-type folks that say the South was justified in seceding from the Union. While I understand their sentiments, their reliance on State nullification leads them right back to the inherent weaknesses of the Articles of Confederation -- which as we know, ended up with the CONSTITUTION - which greatly STRENGTHENED our Federal (NOT central) government.

Faulty as some of Lincoln's positions MAY have been, remember as of 1860, South Carolina and other states threatened to secede if a certain presidential candidate was elected (which happened), and then opening fire on the US army at Fort Sumpter.

(Jesse James' father, Col. Frank Sumpter, fired the first shot -- after the war he was one of the founders of the Knights of the Golden Circle, later to become the Klu Klux Klan).

Most people and scholars have considered the secession to be closed, by virtue of the fact that the North won -- which also ended the idea of states' rights and nullification.

My professor at George Wythe College, Dr. Oliver DeMille, was of the opinion that the North won (and the Union stayed intact) BECAUSE GOD WANTED THE UNION TO BE INTACT.

Now for today. There is also the American Southwest secessionist movement, being advocated by Hispanic academics and movements both in Mexico and in the USA. They are calling for the return of all of Northern Mexico whether lost by treaty or defeat. Their plans call for massive immigration, intimidation of public officials, and high birthrates.

The significant point is this:
Most people and scholars have considered the secession to be closed, by virtue of the fact that the North won.

Legal scholars are now beginning to recognize that the concept of secession has NOT be settled by the courts.

We may yet see a bona fide case on this issue making it's way up to the Supreme Court.

[HeirofNumenor]

My class at George Wythe College also ran a diplomacy simulation/moot court as if the West was seceding from the Union over China style abortion issues. I argued in front of our "Supreme Court" for secession.

It was a 5-4 decision for Union - on provision that ALL abortion be outlawed.

While the decision for Union was okay, myself and others were disappointed in that the student "judges" and "Unionists" kept basing their arguments primarily on what LDS prophets (speaking AS prophets) and restored/revealed scripture, rather than on what the Founders actually said, and what wee the specific influences of that time.

I offended a lot of them when I pointed out that if this was REAL, their reliance on LDS prophets speaking as prophets (not as sec. of Agriculture, or Ambassador to Mexico, etc), and the BoM and D&C, rather than the Bible, these being their background authority appealing to original intent, would case them to lose ALL support from the rest of the non-LDS nation.

[HeirofNumenor]

As for me on this idea of secession, we may never get to it -- only because I feel that our nation is at it's end -- likely in the next 10 years, if not by 2020. I sense the persecution/cleansing happening all too soon. Maher-shalal-hash-baz (Destruction is Imminent) 2 Nephi 18:1 / Isaiah 8:1.

While we may save the Constitution, I highly doubt that our borders and political institutions (Capitol, White House, etc) will remain intact.

[BroJones]

Heir, I certainly agree with Maher-shalal-has-baz. Going a bit on a limb, IMO 2008 will be pivotal -- a change in the status quo. Probably by end of April.

"Now for today. There is also the American Southwest secessionist movement, being advocated by Hispanic academics and movements both in Mexico and in the USA. They are calling for the return of all of Northern Mexico whether lost by treaty or defeat. Their plans call for massive immigration, intimidation of public officials, and high birthrates. "

Reminds me of the scriptures in 3 Ne (and DC 87:5) where the Lord himself prophesies of a remnant being among them, like young lions among the sheep.

[BroJones]

The prophecy in DC 87 is quite clear actually.
Civil war, followed by...

2 And the time will come that bwar will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then awar shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, aslaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the aremnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the a\sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening ehand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all gnations;
7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Speaking of the 2008 elections, I almost feel like we are walking on eggshells somehow.

As I see more people awaken, and the plans to make sure that the votes are accounted for and secured, and the way that the internet is making it hard for the PTB to hide as much from the people, I wonder if they will let this election happen.

When they see the newspaper running an ad that talks about making your vote count, signing the affidavit, and that http://www.watchthevote2008.com is really going to be watching the vote, and that any "questionable" behavior is being video tapped and broadcast through the internet, they may have us attacked or whatever "emergency" and Bush take over as Dictator.

I can see now what Bruce was saying about the internet and what a power for truth it can be. Not just for the gospel, but for freedom in general, and how WE have control of it to a great extent right now.

If everyone made their vote count, and the machine fraud was lessened, it would reveal where our nation really stands.

How many people are there that want Liberty? And if the Beast is Babylon, I can see how using the internet could kill the Beast in our nation. If people are educated, they can "see" more of the big picture and ACT accordingly.

We are under condemnation for not DOING what the BOM has taught us to do. I know that taking on the PTB is a dangerous thing, and like the Revolution it will be a small group, but it is possible to do it, it really is.

I may not feel as ready as I would like, but I do not fear any collapse. I know that through the collapse of that system is freedom. (Speaking of the Fiat/credit system)

I know that the Lord will provide, he ALWAYS has. No matter what has happened to us, we have always had what we needed in the moment that we needed it.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

I think that it is time that slaves start rising up against their masters..

I am tired of being a slave, and I don't want my children to be slaves or my grandchildren.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

I think that it is time that slaves start rising up against their masters..

I am tired of being a slave, and I don't want my children to be slaves or my grandchildren.

Just so I am clear, I mean legally, lawfully fighting the slaveholders. Through our system, using the Constitution AND the internet.

Educating, networking, and revealing on a larger scale.

DIGG and tons of other places are already going to be used. All the Ron Paul Meetup groups and each Individual will do all they can as much as they can to ALL audiences that they can reach personally. In person, email, forums, blogs and so on.

I feel very strongly that this is the last chance that we will be able to do this peacefully.

And even then, they may still assassinate, but if they do, people would be very very angry, and I KNOW that there are those who say after this, it is the second amendment for them.... Because THEN they will be fighting for their wives, their children, their freedom and their religion.

[ChelC]

Heir, I'm not sure if I agree with your professor. While I believe secession used loosely could result in chaos, I think that we became the united states through voluntary union - I don't believe the states tossed away the key when they joined the union. Where they were joined voluntarily, they ought to be able to seperate voluntarily, but not without consequence of course. Any seceding state would be responsible for it's portion of debt, and would no longer be privy to benefits. They would be guaranteed no defense resources, and should they change their minds, would have to negotiate with the union to do so.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

That's exactly as I see it Chel.

Perhaps the gulf separating the wicked and righteous to come will be secessionist as well as physical? We know that others will flock to it and we will be found holding the Constitution up, but that the U.S. nation will fail, fall, kaput etc... Put the pieces together and whether God creates the division or we secede, it will occur.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Gerald N. Lund, The Coming of the Lord , p.79

Brigham Young prophesied that the very kingdom of God would continue to come under attack from the world as it has so often in the past.
If we live, we shall see the nations of the earth arrayed against this people; for that time must come in fulfillment of prophecy. Tell about war commencing! Bitter and relentless war was waged against Joseph Smith before he had received the plates of the Book of Mormon; and from that time till now the wicked have only fallen back at times to gain strength and learn how to attack the Kingdom of God.

Gerald N. Lund, The Coming of the Lord , p.96

Heber C. Kimball, first counselor to President Young for many years, described it as being like a curtain which would drop between the Church and the United States.
Lay up your stores, and take your silks and fine things, and exchange them for grain and such things as you need, and the time will come when we will be obliged to depend upon our own resources; for the time is not far distant when the curtain will be dropped between us and the United States. When the time comes, brethren and sisters, you will wish you had commenced sooner to make your own clothing. I tell you, God requires us to go into home manufacture; and, prolong it as much as you like, you have got to do it.

Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 12:, p.285

This people have got to be self-sustaining, if they believe in the revelations given to them. You will find by and by that this same Babylon, which the Saints of God are required to leave, will fall. Will there be any-body left on the face of the earth? Yes, probably millions. Who will they be? Why the servants and handmaidens of the Almighty, those who love and serve Him. Now, I will ask the question, suppose this is true concerning the gathering out of the Saints, and that Babylon, or a confused and wicked world, will cease its operations as they are now going on, and the time spoken of shall have come, when the merchants will mourn and weep because there is no one to buy their merchandise, will the inhabitants of Zion go down to buy their silks and satins and keep up his trade? No. By and by there will be a gulf between the righteous and the wicked so that they can not trade with each other, and national intercourse will cease. It is not so now, they can pass from one to the other with ease. But if this is the Kingdom of God and if we are the Saints of God-I leave you all to judge for yourselves about this-are we not required to sustain ourselves and to manufacture that which we consume, to cease our bartering, trading, mingling, drinking, smoking, chewing and joining with all the filth of Babylon? You may judge for yourselves in relation to this. But I can say that we have been striving for twenty-one years in these valleys, and before we came here, to bring this people to this point. When we look at ladies and gentlemen we can see that their wants are many, but their real necessities are very few. Now, let the Latter-day Saints see that their necessities are supplied, and omit their wants for the present, and until we can manufacture what we want. We want you henceforth to be a self-sustaining people. Hear it, O Israel! hear it neighbors, friends and enemies, this is what the Lord requires of this people.

Brigham Young spoke of the time when there would be a great gulf between the righteous and the wicked.
Gerald N. Lund, The Coming of the Lord , p.96

By and by there will be a gulf between the righteous and the wicked so that they can not trade with each other, and national intercourse will cease.

Perhaps as Hugh Nibley pointed out, a river of filthy water will fill this gulf as in Lehi & Nephi's vision. Perhaps the Colorado and Green will keep them away as earthquakes deepen the rifts?

[HeirofNumenor]

Heir, I'm not sure if I agree with your professor.

Your points are good; they are the common position in favor of secession. If you notice the last part. I mentioned that some scholars believe the the issue has yet to be decided (they say by the Court).

As for my professor, he tended to agree with you, except he felt the Lord helped the North win, so the Union could remain strong -- God has his own purposes.

Acts 17:26.

[God...] 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

I include the boundaries of nations in different time periods as well.
example. France 1420. England and France had been at war for One Hundred Years. In 1415, King Henry V of England and his yeoman archers defeated a far larger force of French knights at the fields of Agincourt. Longbows against horses.

1429, along comes Joan of Arc whose claims of angelic visits and prophecies of French victory lead to the renewal and reinvigoration of the French throne and government (the English had been kicking their rears for almost 100 years), and eventually, the withdrawl of the English from the continent.

Why does this matter? Because, as I see it, each nation has a role to play in the history of the world. Some for good, some for evil. Most have a mixed record. For some their time has passed millennia ago; for others, their hour is now. It was not yet time for England to dominate the world. That would come 500 years later. Nor was it for France to remain emasculated indefinitely. France still had roles to play as well.

The US role was essentially Manifest Destiny - derided though that concept is now. We were prophesied to become the greatest nation on earth, and lead the way in freedom, the restored gospel, inventions, etc., as well as liberate the world (paving the way for missionaries). That role requires the USA to be unified -- at least until the cleansing. We also had to finally get rid of slavery, like the Founders tried to do, beginning in 1704, when British government under Queen Anne denied them.

Some of you down under may seethe and bristle at my statements, but your nations also have roles worth honoring.



For more in depth examples of how things could have been, read the "What If?" collection of alternate history scenarios, edited by Robert Cowley. 2001. American Historical Publications.

My favorites are: What if Pilate had spared and protected Jesus?
and What if it had been William the Conquerer who had been killed at the Battle of Hastings 1066 instead of King Harold? (hint: a Norse federation with England as the pivot point, in an arc extending from Constantinople, across the Germanic and Slavic lands of NE Europe, through Scandinavia, and down the Atlantic Coast of the US, where the Vikings would have been more friendly with the Indians (being roughly equal in technology) and more likely to form a sustainable confederation. Quite a different Europe, yes?).

[HeirofNumenor]

They would be guaranteed no defense resources

This was a hang up for my secession simulation. No one knew what to do. I then brought up how when the USSR broke apart Dec 25 1991, Ukraine negotiated with Russia regarding the dispositon of the military, and what resulted was the weapons, planes, ships and tanks that were based there, would remain there. The military personnel would be free to return to the country they hailed from: Russians to Russia, Ukrainians back to Ukraine, etc., with the freedom to choose the other if desire (as with the run up to the US Civil War). The other new nations followed suit.

Nuclear weapons were tough to decide. Eventually, Belorussia and Ukraine returned the nukes to Russia, Khazakistan kept those already based there.

For our hypothetical simulation, I saw no reason not to follow this pattern.

After all, the taxes of Americans across the country paid for our weapons, and the military was based across the country.

Let each section take those already assigned to it, with the personnel choosing in which nation they want to be.

After all, the taxes of Americans across the country paid for our weapons, and the military was based across the country.

This, by the way, is the meaning of the General Welfare clause of the Preamble to the US Constitution. (to provide for the common defense, to promote the general welfare...). Note that general means that which benefits EVERYONE across the nation. Such as national defense, international relations, a justice system, treasury with a gold and silver standard and sound currency, interstate commerce, and only a FEW others (Article 1 section 8, 20 powers listed).

[HeirofNumenor]

BTW, in regards to assignment of the weapons such as Ukraine splitting from USSR, that works only if the split is mutually voluntary. Otherwise you have South Carolina opening fire on Fort Sumpter, which becomes and act of war (and treason?).[/quote]