Is the Constitution Dead or Hanging by a Single Hair?

[Teancum-Old]

Is the Constitution Dead or Hanging by a Single Hair? Should we work to defend it now and work toward restoring it to its former glory or abandon the effort now and wait for the Savior to return?

Looks as though this subject has drawn a line in the sand between some of us here on LDSFF.

From another post:

Jason: If the Constitution is dead, then in your view, Joseph Smith's prophecy is flawed:

“Even this nation will be on the verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction.” (Joseph Smith Papers, LDS Church Historical Archives, Box 1, March 10, 1844.)

Depending on the source, the simile “on the brink of ruin” is sometimes interchanged for “hang by a brittle thread,” or “hang by a single hair.” Either way, this prophecy makes it clear that the Constitution cannot now be or never will be dead, but rather ALMOST DEAD (on the "very verge of destruction"). Then the faithful will save and restore it to its intended glory. I believe the prophets. Benson and Clark were correct, and so was Joseph. In 1976, only a "thread" (right to vote) of the Constitution remained, perhaps today, it is only a single hair. A single hair is thinner than thread.

The Constitution is not dead. In trying to convince people that it is dead, you appear to be working against the will of God to prevent the faithful from restoring it. I am confident that continuing efforts to try to restore the Constitution is not against the will of God. I cannot say the same for any who try to prevent or delay that restoration.

So leveraging off of Ezra Taft Benson's reference in that the sole remaining thread was the franchise or right to vote......and your enlightenment of "hanging by a brittle thread" and/or "hanging by a single hair".....we pretty much end up with the following don't we???

You know, comrades, that I think in regard to this: I consider it completely unimportant who in the party will vote, or how; but what is extraordinarily important is this — who will count the votes, and how.

- Joseph Stalin, "Memoirs of the former secretary of Stalin" by Boris Bazhanov

You and I have heard all our lives that the time may come when the Constitution may hang by a thread. I do not know whether it is a thread, or a small rope by which it now hangs, but I do know that whether it shall live or die is now in the balance.

- J. Reuben Clark, Jr., Conference Report, October 1942, p. 58

Our great Constitution has been beaten and torn until now it hangs by a single thread, and that thread is our franchise to vote.

-Ezra Taft Benson, 1976, Freeman Institute, Provo, Utah

20 Amazing Facts About Voting in the USA

1. 80% of all votes in America are counted by only two companies: Diebold and ES&S.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/04 ... andes.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diebold" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2. There is no federal agency with regulatory authority or oversight of the U.S. voting machine industry.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0916-04.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/04 ... andes.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3. The vice-president of Diebold and the president of ES&S are brothers.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/p ... mpany.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/04 ... andes.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

4. The chairman and CEO of Diebold is a major Bush campaign organizer and donor who wrote in 2003 that he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/ ... 2436.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1647886" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

5. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel used to be chairman of ES&S. He became Senator based on votes counted by ES&S machines.

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/c ... 3_200.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/03 ... rakis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

6. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, long-connected with the Bush family, was recently caught lying about his ownership of ES&S by the Senate Ethics Committee.

http://www.blackboxvoting.com/modules.p ... cle&sid=26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.hillnews.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/000896.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

7. Senator Chuck Hagel was on a short list of George W. Bush's vice-presidential candidates.

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_28/b3689130.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://theindependent.com/stories/05270 ... gel27.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

8. ES&S is the largest voting machine manufacturer in the U.S. and counts almost 60% of all U.S. votes.

http://www.essvote.com/HTML/about/about.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/04 ... andes.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


9. Diebold's new touch screen voting machines have no paper trail of any votes. In other words, there is no way to verify that the data coming out of the machine is the same as what was legitimately put in by voters.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.itworld.com/Tech/2987/041020 ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


10. Diebold also makes ATMs, checkout scanners, and ticket machines, all of which log each transaction and can generate a paper trail.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.diebold.com/solutions/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

11. Diebold is based in Ohio.

http://www.diebold.com/aboutus/ataglance/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

12. Diebold employed 5 convicted felons as consultants and developers to help write the central compiler computer code that counted 50% of the votes in 30 states.

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,61640,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/10/301469.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

13. Jeff Dean was Senior Vice-President of Global Election Systems when it was bought by Diebold. Even though he had been convicted of 23 counts of felony theft in the first degree, Jeff Dean was retained as a consultant by Diebold and was largely responsible for programming the optical scanning software now used in most of the United States.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0312/S00191.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm#how" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-8.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

14. Diebold consultant Jeff Dean was convicted of planting back doors in his software and using a "high degree of sophistication" to evade detection over a period of 2 years.

http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm#how" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-8.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

15. None of the international election observers were allowed in the polls in Ohio.

http://www.globalexchange.org/update/press/2638.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/1 ... lexoh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

16. California banned the use of Diebold machines because the security was so bad. Despite Diebold's claims that the audit logs could not be hacked, a chimpanzee was able to do it! (See the movie here: http://blackboxvoting.org/baxter/baxterVPR.mov" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.)

http://wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,63298,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4874190" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

17. 30% of all U.S. votes are carried out on unverifiable touch screen voting machines with no paper trail.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/ ... 2436.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

18. All -- not some -- but all the voting machine errors detected and reported in Florida went in favor of Bush or Republican candidates.

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65757,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.yuricareport.com/ElectionAft ... hIsOut.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rise4news.net/extravotes.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ilcaonline.org/modules.php?o ... le&sid=950" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0411/S00227.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

19. The governor of the state of Florida, Jeb Bush, is the President's brother.

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahas ... 628725.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Oct29.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

20. Serious voting anomalies in Florida -- again always favoring Bush -- have been mathematically demonstrated and experts are recommending further investigation.

http://www.yuricareport.com/ElectionAft ... hIsOut.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.computerworld.com/government ... 14,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/t ... sands.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1106-30.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2004/110904.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://uscountvotes.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... facts.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you can see from the previous links and info......the industry has consolidated much further since this article was written. ES&S purchased Diebold (renamed Premier Election Solutions prior to the sale to ES&S to keep attention down - like Blackwater renaming itself Xe Services Inc.)...then when protests go nuts....this little privately held Canadian company moves to the US and somehow purchases #2 market leader Diebold from ES&S and then just a month later the #3 market leader Sequoia. Isn't that just amazing that this tiny little Canadian company (roughly 8 years old) is able to gobble up #2 & #3 market leaders in the industry? Companies exponentially larger????

Now 95% of the market resides with 2 companies. ES&S and DVS.....the only two votes that matter!!!

We are much more than a systems manufacturer; we are an election solutions company.

http://www.dominionvoting.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....all that said.....the sole remaining thread (or brittle hair) for the Constitution - the franchise or "right" to vote still exists. You have the right to go to the voting booths and click your choices. Doesn't mean it gets counted though....so for all intents and purposes (ours)....especially on the national level....the Constitution is essentially dead.

If you really want to change things, you first need to come to terms with just how corrupt and evil the current system is.

An incomplete understanding of the situation will lead to half baked solutions that accomplish nothing.

http://www.waitingforthestorm.com/nazi- ... vernment-0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



4.05 - "What do you say to people who advocate for self government, rather than a return to the Constitution?"

Ron Paul: "Great. Fine. That is really what my goal is."

I have to laugh a little though about you portraying it as though I am trying to work against the will of God by calling a spade a spade......it will be restored....that is after the Cleansing of America takes place! As for the faithful working to restore it.....yeah after the cleansing and its not Ron Paul who really could care less about the Constitution (just a talking point).....so good luck with your hope on that one and that life will merrily go on its way without some major hiccups between now and the restoration of the Constitution (versus Ron Paul's anarchist ideal)!

After commenting upon Elder Hollands talk about the terrible difficulties the pioneers faced---Three times, President Packer repeated "It's going to be harder!"

Good thing we're prepared!

Bob

[Teancum-Old]

Regarding the Consitution,

As for the faithful working to restore it.....yeah after the cleansing and its not Ron Paul who really could care less about the Constitution (just a talking point).....so good luck with your hope on that one and that life will merrily go on its way without some major hiccups between now and the restoration of the Constitution (versus Ron Paul's anarchist ideal)!

Jason: You have me all wrong. I never said "major hiccups" would not occur; rather I have warned many to get prepared for the future hard times. I take seriously Pres. Packer's comment below. I believe it with all my heart.

"After commenting upon Elder Hollands talk about the terrible difficulties the pioneers faced---Three times, President Packer repeated "It's going to be harder!"

Good thing we're prepared!

Bob

I do not believe Ron Paul, Gov. Johnson, or any of these folks out there right now are "political saviors," as you like to refer to them as. I simply see Paul and Johnson as some of the few people who could slow down this train perhaps just enough so as to only sideswipe the wreck rather than run into it at full speed. Nevertheless, such a side swipe will severely jolt the country and shock us all (including the world). But it may be enough to prevent a complete collapse and then the Church will be in position to fulfill Jospeh's prophecy

this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean

in order to save the Constitution and fully restore it in all its glory. Ron Paul, Johnson, Romney (or any of these pres. candidates) can be expected to save the Constitution alone. But I do believe a Ron Paul presidency can indeed blunt the impending disaster somewhat as a precursor and aid to restoring the Constitution.

I believe those of us looking to support Ron Paul or Gov Johnson are looking at the upcoming disaster in this way. I don't believe any of us view these guys as political saviors.

[Original_Intent]

I have felt for some time that as far as the nation is concerned it will be dead, and will only be kept alive by a group committed to its principles in the Rocky Mountains...I think there are many groups, primarily but not exclusively LDS - that are going to keep those principles even as the nation collapses. That is why I think that the rest of the nation will find us "bearing it on our shoulders" and I also think that is why anyone who doesn;t wish to fight his brother will have to flee to Zion.

I think there are pretty large groups in Utah, Idaho and Montana that will be involved, and possibly Wyoming and others as well.

It may come to a point of secession - possibly not formally, but again I feel there is a group that will just start living as "separatists" under their own system and will pretty much ignore the federal government - and the federal government is either going to have its hands too full to "deal with them", or the federal government itself will be in complete chaos/nonexistent.

At any rate, I think the Constitution hanging by a thread doesn't mean it will survive in our current government, in fact, Ia gree with Jason - in THAT regard it is already dead. I think the "thread" are the people who remember the principles, believe in them and teach them to their children (and anyone else that will listen.)

Even THAT thread is getting pretty frayed...I would be surprised if 1 in 1000 LDS truly support "full on" constitutional government. I'm pretty awake, and I have been suckered into "partaking of the spoils" of the gadiantons from time to time.

[mes5464]

Is the Constitution Dead or Hanging by a Single Hair? Should we work to defend it now and work toward restoring it to its former glory or abandon the effort now and wait for the Savior to return

I don't think we have lived under the Constitution since the 60s or 70s.

[Jason]

Regarding the Consitution,

As for the faithful working to restore it.....yeah after the cleansing and its not Ron Paul who really could care less about the Constitution (just a talking point).....so good luck with your hope on that one and that life will merrily go on its way without some major hiccups between now and the restoration of the Constitution (versus Ron Paul's anarchist ideal)!

Jason: You have me all wrong. I never said "major hiccups" would not occur; rather I have warned many to get prepared for the future hard times. I take seriously Pres. Packer's comment below. I believe it with all my heart.

"After commenting upon Elder Hollands talk about the terrible difficulties the pioneers faced---Three times, President Packer repeated "It's going to be harder!"

Good thing we're prepared!

Bob

I do not believe Ron Paul, Gov. Johnson, or any of these folks out there right now are "political saviors," as you like to refer to them as. I simply see Paul and Johnson as some of the few people who could slow down this train perhaps just enough so as to only sideswipe the wreck rather than run into it at full speed. Nevertheless, such a side swipe will severely jolt the country and shock us all (including the world). But it may be enough to prevent a complete collapse and then the Church will be in position to fulfill Jospeh's prophecy

this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean

in order to save the Constitution and fully restore it in all its glory. Ron Paul, Johnson, Romney (or any of these pres. candidates) can be expected to save the Constitution alone. But I do believe a Ron Paul presidency can indeed blunt the impending disaster somewhat as a precursor and aid to restoring the Constitution.

I believe those of us looking to support Ron Paul or Gov Johnson are looking at the upcoming disaster in this way. I don't believe any of us view these guys as political saviors.

....Ron Paul isn't out to save the Constitution as pointed out by his comments above. He's out for self government without moral basis. When you examine his history and voting record on the basis of that philosophical foundation.....everything adds up. Comparing him to the founding fathers and this intended determination to save the Constitution does not. The Constitution is based on Natural Law and Nature's God (Declaration of Independence). An architect doesn't spell out the law of gravity....nor does the Constitution spell out God....because its supposed to be a given. How does Ron Paul's view on homosexuality, drug use, or any number of moral issues square with God???

How can you save a Constitution (rule of law for government that protects natural rights and Nature's God) when you ultimately are against government period???

How can you blunt an impending disaster when you ultimately don't care about the moral foundation....the decay of which has brought us to the current precipice???

You just stated that you do (political saviors)....and then you state you don't??? Seriously....re-read your statements....I bolded and underlined some...

Have you read Cleansing of America by Cleon Skousen? A full collapse is what is needed to bring about Zion.....no one is going to step up to the plate with an alternate form of government (especially as established by Moses) with any form of the current government (power) still in place.

fyi - saving the Constitution does not mean saving the government.

[Mark]

Regarding the Consitution,

As for the faithful working to restore it.....yeah after the cleansing and its not Ron Paul who really could care less about the Constitution (just a talking point).....so good luck with your hope on that one and that life will merrily go on its way without some major hiccups between now and the restoration of the Constitution (versus Ron Paul's anarchist ideal)!

Jason: You have me all wrong. I never said "major hiccups" would not occur; rather I have warned many to get prepared for the future hard times. I take seriously Pres. Packer's comment below. I believe it with all my heart.

"After commenting upon Elder Hollands talk about the terrible difficulties the pioneers faced---Three times, President Packer repeated "It's going to be harder!"

Good thing we're prepared!

Bob

I do not believe Ron Paul, Gov. Johnson, or any of these folks out there right now are "political saviors," as you like to refer to them as. I simply see Paul and Johnson as some of the few people who could slow down this train perhaps just enough so as to only sideswipe the wreck rather than run into it at full speed. Nevertheless, such a side swipe will severely jolt the country and shock us all (including the world). But it may be enough to prevent a complete collapse and then the Church will be in position to fulfill Jospeh's prophecy

this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean

in order to save the Constitution and fully restore it in all its glory. Ron Paul, Johnson, Romney (or any of these pres. candidates) can be expected to save the Constitution alone. But I do believe a Ron Paul presidency can indeed blunt the impending disaster somewhat as a precursor and aid to restoring the Constitution.

I believe those of us looking to support Ron Paul or Gov Johnson are looking at the upcoming disaster in this way. I don't believe any of us view these guys as political saviors.

....Ron Paul isn't out to save the Constitution as pointed out by his comments above. He's out for self government without moral basis. When you examine his history and voting record on the basis of that philosophical foundation.....everything adds up. Comparing him to the founding fathers and this intended determination to save the Constitution does not. The Constitution is based on Natural Law and Nature's God (Declaration of Independence). An architect doesn't spell out the law of gravity....nor does the Constitution spell out God....because its supposed to be a given. How does Ron Paul's view on homosexuality, drug use, or any number of moral issues square with God???

How can you save a Constitution (rule of law for government that protects natural rights and Nature's God) when you ultimately are against government period???

How can you blunt an impending disaster when you ultimately don't care about the moral foundation....the decay of which has brought us to the current precipice???

You just stated that you do (political saviors)....and then you state you don't??? Seriously....re-read your statements....I bolded and underlined some...

Have you read Cleansing of America by Cleon Skousen? A full collapse is what is needed to bring about Zion.....no one is going to step up to the plate with an alternate form of government (especially as established by Moses) with any form of the current government (power) still in place.

fyi - saving the Constitution does not mean saving the government.

Are you reading this Col.? I think my friend Jason just nailed it. That is why Alan Keyes talks on the importance of the Declaration of Independence were so critical to understand. Without Natural Law and Natures God in the mix it just aint going to happen. Period.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Food for thought: If Gary Johnson becomes the next POTUS, you can bet the nature of the Senate and Congress will change greatly giving both houses a majority, maybe a super majority, to reverse course. IF Joihnson wins, the people have awoken and demand fundamental change. Do I see this happening? No. But, I have pledged to sacrifice my life for the Restored Gospel which clearly includes the inspired Constitution. If Jason and others want to hunker down and NOT be directly involved, so be it.

[tmac]

Hear hear regarding the laws of nature and Nature's God. A year ago we had a big discussion about this. Brian and others argued that at this point it is essentially too late, and that the only real/true answer at this point is REPENTANCE. I wanted to argue (and did) that we're still obligated to do what we can to save the Constitution and Constitutional Principles, and that there was still a chance that it could be saved. I don't want to sound too much like StL here, but having spent years actively fighting for Constitutional principles, I spent the past year working and fighting as much as ever. But having done that, at this point, I have to agree with the previous sentiment -- Repentance is the only answer. And it's not going to happen until this country and this people are brought to their knees. In the meantime, we live in a general state of denial, with no real acknowledgment. Until a thorough, humbling cleansing happens nothing is going to change. Until then we're essentially weeing in the wind.

[Amore Vero]

.

[Jason]

Hear hear regarding the laws of nature and Nature's God. A year ago we had a big discussion about this. Brian and others argued that at this point it is essentially too late, and that the only real/true answer at this point is REPENTANCE. I wanted to argue (and did) that we're still obligated to do what we can to save the Constitution and Constitutional Principles, and that there was still a chance that it could be saved. I don't want to sound too much like StL here, but having spent years actively fighting for Constitutional principles, I spent the past year working and fighting as much as ever. But having done that, at this point, I have to agree with the previous sentiment -- Repentance is the only answer. And it's not going to happen until this country and this people are brought to their knees. In the meantime, we live in a general state of denial, with no real acknowledgment. Until a thorough, humbling cleansing happens nothing is going to change. Until then we're essentially weeing in the wind.

Big hearty AMEN!!!

Thank you tmac for opening my eyes to the laws of nature and Nature's God!!!

[Amore Vero]

Repentance is the only answer.

I agree wholeheartedly. And more specifically, according to the Proclamation, if we don't repent & stop the disintegration of our marriages & families, ours & those of our close family & friends which we have influence over, we will never be able to save ourselves or our nation or the Constitution.

For liberty is born in marriage.

[SpeedRacer]

I have stated this to people I know. Society as we know it only functions the way it does, because as a people we expect it to function that way. Society as we know it is basically operated on the memory of the people now in it. The constitution is a concept captured on paper. The paper it was captured on can be changed, erased, thrown out, etc. But the concept is what lives in our hearts and minds. If we adhere to it as a people, the constitution is in effect. If you look at the laws, and it is very difficult to do because what is on the books is not how it works, you would really have to gather up all of the case law. Not just that of the supreme court, but the law that is set in state and local hearings as well that are not contested for those areas. Anyway, if you look at the law, the constitution is all but null and void.

So the constitution hangs on our living it, not on it being an effective document by which our government is operated. You are thread in the tapestry of society, an so it is by you that it hangs.

[sbsion]

dead to Obama and Reid.........alive in the hearts of freedom lovers

[Mark]

Hear hear regarding the laws of nature and Nature's God. A year ago we had a big discussion about this. Brian and others argued that at this point it is essentially too late, and that the only real/true answer at this point is REPENTANCE. I wanted to argue (and did) that we're still obligated to do what we can to save the Constitution and Constitutional Principles, and that there was still a chance that it could be saved. I don't want to sound too much like StL here, but having spent years actively fighting for Constitutional principles, I spent the past year working and fighting as much as ever. But having done that, at this point, I have to agree with the previous sentiment -- Repentance is the only answer. And it's not going to happen until this country and this people are brought to their knees. In the meantime, we live in a general state of denial, with no real acknowledgment. Until a thorough, humbling cleansing happens nothing is going to change. Until then we're essentially weeing in the wind.

We do indeed as a society speaking collectively and not individually of course. This is not by accident. Disciples of men like Antonio Gramsci have been working for decades to make sure the Western populace was sufficiently dumbed down so as to prepare themselves for bondage and wicked masters. As that patriot William Penn so eloquently stated Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants. The Lords servants know this all to well so they continue to call for any who will listen to turn to Jesus Christ the God of this land or be swept off. We can only hope that Satans hold will not last much longer. :ymparty:

[Jason]

Hear hear regarding the laws of nature and Nature's God. A year ago we had a big discussion about this. Brian and others argued that at this point it is essentially too late, and that the only real/true answer at this point is REPENTANCE. I wanted to argue (and did) that we're still obligated to do what we can to save the Constitution and Constitutional Principles, and that there was still a chance that it could be saved. I don't want to sound too much like StL here, but having spent years actively fighting for Constitutional principles, I spent the past year working and fighting as much as ever. But having done that, at this point, I have to agree with the previous sentiment -- Repentance is the only answer. And it's not going to happen until this country and this people are brought to their knees. In the meantime, we live in a general state of denial, with no real acknowledgment. Until a thorough, humbling cleansing happens nothing is going to change. Until then we're essentially weeing in the wind.

We do indeed as a society speaking collectively and not individually of course. This is not by accident. Disciples of men like Antonio Gramsci have been working for decades to make sure the Western populace was sufficiently dumbed down so as to prepare themselves for bondage and wicked masters. As that patriot William Penn so eloquently stated Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants. The Lords servants know this all to well so they continue to call for any who will listen to turn to Jesus Christ the God of this land or be swept off. We can only hope that Satans hold will not last much longer. :ymparty:

Well stated.....and I believe this (bold & underline) should be the measuring stick that we utilize for leaders and politicians (as well as live ourselves) if we can at all hope for escaping our awful situation. Measured in their actions and not just their statements.

[Teancum-Old]

Great comments all. You are making me think hard about it all.

This idea never quite hit home with me until now:

having spent years actively fighting for Constitutional principles, I spent the past year working and fighting as much as ever. But having done that, at this point, I have to agree with the previous sentiment -- Repentance is the only answer. And it's not going to happen until this country and this people are brought to their knees. In the meantime, we live in a general state of denial, with no real acknowledgment. Until a thorough, humbling cleansing happens nothing is going to change. Until then we're essentially weeing in the wind.

Thanks tmac. This could very well be why ETB was the last outspoken prophet on the Consitution? Even he toned down his language on the subject in the 80's it seems.

But still, I agree with Sam as well:

But, I have pledged to sacrifice my life for the Restored Gospel which clearly includes the inspired Constitution. If Jason and others want to hunker down and NOT be directly involved, so be it.

The way I see it now, we have to do all we can to spread the Gospel in order for people to understand their errors and repent, prepare for future calamities, as well as putting forth true effort to save the inspired Consitution, regardless of whether this govt does not survive. I just know that by "hunkering down" and leaving the Consitution to fend for itself, we will be held accountable, just as if we were to leave the efforts of spreading the gospel to others.

[Jason]

Great comments all. You are making me think hard about it all.

This idea never quite hit home with me until now:

having spent years actively fighting for Constitutional principles, I spent the past year working and fighting as much as ever. But having done that, at this point, I have to agree with the previous sentiment -- Repentance is the only answer. And it's not going to happen until this country and this people are brought to their knees. In the meantime, we live in a general state of denial, with no real acknowledgment. Until a thorough, humbling cleansing happens nothing is going to change. Until then we're essentially weeing in the wind.

Thanks tmac. This could very well be why ETB was the last outspoken prophet on the Consitution? Even he toned down his language on the subject in the 80's it seems.

But still, I agree with Sam as well:

But, I have pledged to sacrifice my life for the Restored Gospel which clearly includes the inspired Constitution. If Jason and others want to hunker down and NOT be directly involved, so be it.

The way I see it now, we have to do all we can to spread the Gospel in order for people to understand their errors and repent, prepare for future calamities, as well as putting forth true effort to save the inspired Consitution, regardless of whether this govt does not survive. I just know that by "hunkering down" and leaving the Consitution to fend for itself, we will be held accountable, just as if we were to leave the efforts of spreading the gospel to others.

LOL....so you support Sam in his narcissistic slander???

Since when have I advocated NOT being directly involved???

Have I not stated that the best opportunities for efforts exist at the local level? Along with myriad other such related comments? Since when is that "leaving the Constitution to fend for itself"???

You keep wanting to point a finger.....while three are pointing right back at you.

I'm simply calling a spade a spade.....the situation is what it is. You nor I will change the national scene.....nor even probably the state scene.....but we can make a difference.....even if that difference is simply instilling Constitutional understanding (laws of nature and Nature's God) to our children as well as living it to the best of our ability and calling a spade a spade no matter what the majority think/say/do. As well as surviving society's impact upon the laws of nature (water flow uphill?) in order to hold the majority vote after the cleansing....

What's the TRUTH???? You started this thread with an agenda.....yet found your view wasn't the one commonly held....and you've now stated an adjustment....yet with a grudge. No biggee....

What constitutes "true effort" to save the inspired Constitution? Its one thing to roll that word "Constitution" out of the mouth and profess ardent support....like Ron Paul does on a frequent basis while ignoring the basis/foundation for that document.....and a whole different thing to live and advocate the basis of that Constitution....the laws of nature and Nature's God.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

I believe the Constitution is practically irrelevant. We are one major crises from finding this out for ourselves. That doesn't mean anyone is giving up. And Sam, Jason has never advocated to stop getting involved. In fact, I think Jason is more in line with the prophets today who have said we need to get our houses in order in preparation of the coming calamities. What has been the theme of General Conference the past 5-10 years?

Proclamation of the Family;

We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.

Jason is right on point. I hope no line has been drawn. We just need to talk about these things so we can all get on the same page and side.

[Teancum-Old]

I believe the Constitution is practically irrelevant.

Semp: I assume you mean that although it has been practically made irrelevant by enemies within America, it SHOULD not have been made so. If so, I agree.

Jason:

LOL....so you support Sam in his narcissistic slander???
A bit harsh on Sam, as I have seen nothing narcissistic about his posts. Anyways, now because I agree with Sam on this topic you are trying to cast shame upon us both? Who do you take us for, some sort of teenagers seeking attention? This isn't high school anymore and it sure isn't the USMC where putting folks down is common practice (don't forget, I am a Marine as well- "once a Marine, always a Marine"). Your ridicule is over the top and does nothing to help unite us in support of righteous principles. According to you, anyone who supports any politician today is the devil incarnate. Ridiculous! X(

Since when have I advocated NOT being directly involved???
In your many statements you have made ridiculing anyone who supports any politician on the federal level (aside from Alan Keyes)
Have I not stated that the best opportunities for efforts exist at the local level? Along with myriad other such related comments? Since when is that "leaving the Constitution to fend for itself"???

If you have stated that efforts should include supporting righteous principles at the local level, then I missed them. Ooops. I definitely agree with that. But you have called for (perhaps not explicitly) abandoning efforts to save the Constitution at the federal level. With this, I do not agree. Perhaps you could more effectively argue that we should place most of our efforts at the local level yet continue efforts at the State and federal levels with less emphasis. This I can agree with. But I cannot agree with simply abandoning the America the Founders worked so hard to build. If this is where we disagree, so be it. No ridicule is necessary. I only ask that in making your argument, do it without condescension.

You keep wanting to point a finger.....while three are pointing right back at you.
Pointing the finger? You Sir, keep pointing the finger. I am only looking for ideas and am trying to get opinions on this forum about what we all think about whether the Constitution is Dead or Hanging by a Single Hair? You know my opinion. I am simply looking for more (likely more than 3 pointing back at me).

What's the TRUTH???? You started this thread with an agenda.....yet found your view wasn't the one commonly held....and you've now stated an adjustment....yet with a grudge. No biggee....
Agenda? Of course, we all have agendas. Don't you??? And actually, my agenda was to get a pulse on members of the forum as to what their opinon on this subject was and to target this one topic clearly for more discussion hoping to be enlightened or help enlighten. Isn't this what this forum is partially about? Additionally, I do not claim infallibility, as your posts so often imply about your own wisdom. I can change my opinion on occasion and I can admit when I am wrong. While some opinions on this particular thread have broadened my horizon on this subject a bit, they have not led me to abandon efforts on the federal level, as you so ardently argue. Being in the minority will not, in and of itself, change my opinion. It may in fact strengthen it.

You have yet to produce any statement from latter-day prophets calling us to abandon our efforts on the federal level. This would mean neglecting the Lord's commandment as found in D&C 98: "honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil."

[Jason]

LOL....so you support Sam in his narcissistic slander???

A bit harsh on Sam, as I have seen nothing narcissistic about his posts. Anyways, now because I agree with Sam on this topic you are trying to cast shame upon us both? Who do you take us for, some sort of teenagers seeking attention? This isn't high school anymore and it sure isn't the USMC where putting folks down is common practice (don't forget, I am a Marine as well- "once a Marine, always a Marine"). Your ridicule is over the top and does nothing to help unite us in support of righteous principles. According to you, anyone who supports any politician today is the devil incarnate. Ridiculous! X(

Well I reckon to each their own on Sam the man....when its not a correct though....I consider it slander and Sam narcissistic fwiw. Had nothing to do with shame, teenagers, high school, ridicule, Marines, etc... To my knowledge I have never advocated doing nothing....but feel free to put some backbone behind that claim. Never called someone the devil incarnate for supporting any politician (even Obama - my sister) to my knowledge either....but again feel free to back your statement up.

Since when have I advocated NOT being directly involved???

In your many statements you have made ridiculing anyone who supports any politician on the federal level (aside from Alan Keyes)

Again the claim....since when have I ridiculed anyone for supporting any politician aside from Alan Keyes? And since when have I advocated Alan Keyes for any office? I've been pointing out what I consider failures of the current bunch in the running...with specific focus on Ron Paul as I considered him previously to be a solution to the problem and the best in the running (he's probably still that despite not ultimately being a solution to the problem).....and if Alan Keyes were in the mix I'd be looking at him through a microscope as well!!! Outside of quoting a couple of Alan Keyes' statements regarding Constitution, natural law, and Nature's God....where's this Alan Keyes fan club support???

Have I not stated that the best opportunities for efforts exist at the local level? Along with myriad other such related comments? Since when is that "leaving the Constitution to fend for itself"???

If you have stated that efforts should include supporting righteous principles at the local level, then I missed them. Ooops. I definitely agree with that. But you have called for (perhaps not explicitly) abandoning efforts to save the Constitution at the federal level. With this, I do not agree. Perhaps you could more effectively argue that we should place most of our efforts at the local level yet continue efforts at the State and federal levels with less emphasis. This I can agree with. But I cannot agree with simply abandoning the America the Founders worked so hard to build. If this is where we disagree, so be it. No ridicule is necessary. I only ask that in making your argument, do it without condescension.

Well the condescension is relative and depends on what is being read into the statements (may or may not be correct - in the eye of the beholder). I believe the "America" that the Founders worked so hard to build is nearly dead...if not so why would we be on the edge of collapse?....which is my personal opinion and we simply agree to disagree if you don't see it that way. When there's little to no justice (recourse according to law)....to the extent that conspirators can kill the President of the United States in broad daylight in Texas and get away with it....not to mention laundering billions of dollars of drug smuggling proceeds through our largest banks....a couple of the myriad examples available...not even getting into the fact that over 10% of the population eats their daily bread via a government sponsored plastic card, unrighteous wars, etc etc etc. But anyways to each their own on that one.

I've quoted prophets in an effort to support my opinion....as well as the numerous examples right in front of our eyes. If you have examples to support otherwise by all means lets see what you base your opinion on....

I have mentioned off and on over the past couple years that probably the most realistic opportunity to make a change existed locally.....though even giving Bob Bennett the boot hasn't in my opinion made a whole lot of difference. Nationally you basically have a vote for president....who is one man in the midst of conspiracies.....the alphabet soup of the 4th branch of government that is in for life (not up for elections) I think really controls the show vs. the puppet that's in for 4 to 8 years.....or your state reps who again are going into it outnumbered and outgunned ($$$$). Is not that the realistic end of the day reality???

Its like your name sake Teancum....did he make a difference when he gave his life? Or was his enemy replaced by the next guy vying for king of the oligarchy? So while hat's off to him for giving his life for the cause....was it a bit rash and would he have been better off recognizing the situation for what it was and possibly choosing another course of action? just food for thought...

What's the TRUTH???? You started this thread with an agenda.....yet found your view wasn't the one commonly held....and you've now stated an adjustment....yet with a grudge. No biggee....

Agenda? Of course, we all have agendas. Don't you??? And actually, my agenda was to get a pulse on members of the forum as to what their opinon on this subject was and to target this one topic clearly for more discussion hoping to be enlightened or help enlighten. Isn't this what this forum is partially about? Additionally, I do not claim infallibility, as your posts so often imply about your own wisdom. I can change my opinion on occasion and I can admit when I am wrong. While some opinions on this particular thread have broadened my horizon on this subject a bit, they have not led me to abandon efforts on the federal level, as you so ardently argue. Being in the minority will not, in and of itself, change my opinion. It may in fact strengthen it.

You have yet to produce any statement from latter-day prophets calling us to abandon our efforts on the federal level. This would mean neglecting the Lord's commandment as found in D&C 98: "honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil."

LOL....for infallibility I seem to change my opinion a bit (most lately with respect to Ron Paul who I wholeheartedly supported up until a month or so ago and would have vigorously defended him).

Never said to abandon the efforts at the federal level.....just stated that the opportunity for real change is pretty bleak (ES&S, DVS, $$$, current crop of candidates, etc.)....until events change the current situation. Just calling a spade a spade.....if it isn't then by all means lay out the evidence so we can get to the real picture!!!

If you really want to change things, you first need to come to terms with just how corrupt and evil the current system is.

An incomplete understanding of the situation will lead to half baked solutions that accomplish nothing!

If it is realistic and one doesn't want to smash their hopes....well I empathize with that as I've had some pretty serious bouts of depression in the roller coaster ride for truth. Young men posted the flag in my yard again today despite my polite request for them not to do so.....I'm not proud of it right now. I'd give my life in a heartbeat to make a difference....but there's no point in throwing away a life if that's all that's going to happen.

If I'm unrealistic....again by all means thrust out the evidence concerning how I've skewed the picture. I love news links, history, etc....on the other hand if its just an issue with the lens....then I reckon we agree to disagree. I apologize if I've come off condescending, attacking, etc.....I hold my belief systems just as dearly as everyone else....but I do hope to have the truth (the whole truth) with the clear perspective!

honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold

...still seeking! I thought Ron Paul was one and put $$$ behind him the first time.....and now I don't. When I find another one in the running I'll be sure to give him my support.....but by the same token I'm not going to hold my breathe over it if it doesn't happen until after we get some lessons in natural law from Nature and Nature's God.

[linj2fly]

Jason said:
saving the Constitution does not mean saving the government

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

Hear hear regarding the laws of nature and Nature's God. A year ago we had a big discussion about this. Brian and others argued that at this point it is essentially too late, and that the only real/true answer at this point is REPENTANCE. I wanted to argue (and did) that we're still obligated to do what we can to save the Constitution and Constitutional Principles, and that there was still a chance that it could be saved. I don't want to sound too much like StL here, but having spent years actively fighting for Constitutional principles, I spent the past year working and fighting as much as ever. But having done that, at this point, I have to agree with the previous sentiment -- Repentance is the only answer. And it's not going to happen until this country and this people are brought to their knees. In the meantime, we live in a general state of denial, with no real acknowledgment. Until a thorough, humbling cleansing happens nothing is going to change. Until then we're essentially weeing in the wind.

Just wanted you to know that 'weeing' is now my new word for the day. Agree with you on the repentance factor.

We do indeed as a society speaking collectively and not individually of course. This is not by accident. Disciples of men like Antonio Gramsci have been working for decades to make sure the Western populace was sufficiently dumbed down so as to prepare themselves for bondage and wicked masters. As that patriot William Penn so eloquently stated Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants. The Lords servants know this all to well so they continue to call for any who will listen to turn to Jesus Christ the God of this land or be swept off. We can only hope that Satans hold will not last much longer. :ymparty:

Well stated.....and I believe this (bold & underline) should be the measuring stick that we utilize for leaders and politicians (as well as live ourselves) if we can at all hope for escaping our awful situation. Measured in their actions and not just their statements.

(I agree with the whole the laws of Nature and Nature's God idea with respect to governing, but again, as you said, this should be our measuring stick. Over a century ago this christian nation decided to that plural marriage was immoral, or against the laws of Nature and Nature's God. All the more reason to choose wise and just leaders.)

I just got finished reading all the small books between Jacob and Mosiah...they are such a condensed summary of a huge portion of time--after reading them I thought, "that pretty much sums up the Book of Mormon." The whole pattern is there. The weakness of men, Jesus is our Savior; repentant, then hard hearted; wars and bloodshed. keeping the commandments, prosperity, pride, more wars and bloodshed.

This scripture popped out to me today...

Omni 1:6 For the Lord would not suffer, after he had led them out of the land of Jerusalem and kept and preserved them from falling into the hands of their enemies, yea, he would not suffer that the words should not be verified, which he spake unto our fathers, saying that: Inasmuch as ye will not keep my commandments ye shall not prosper in the land.

7 Wherefore, the Lord did visit them in great judgment; nevertheless, he did spare the righteous that they should not perish, but did deliver them out of the hands of their enemies.

The pattern continued and one generation later, Mosiah was warned of the Lord to flee out of the land of Nephi, and was led over into Zarahemla where he and his people joined the Mulekites.

[Jason]

Jason said:
saving the Constitution does not mean saving the government

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

Hear hear regarding the laws of nature and Nature's God. A year ago we had a big discussion about this. Brian and others argued that at this point it is essentially too late, and that the only real/true answer at this point is REPENTANCE. I wanted to argue (and did) that we're still obligated to do what we can to save the Constitution and Constitutional Principles, and that there was still a chance that it could be saved. I don't want to sound too much like StL here, but having spent years actively fighting for Constitutional principles, I spent the past year working and fighting as much as ever. But having done that, at this point, I have to agree with the previous sentiment -- Repentance is the only answer. And it's not going to happen until this country and this people are brought to their knees. In the meantime, we live in a general state of denial, with no real acknowledgment. Until a thorough, humbling cleansing happens nothing is going to change. Until then we're essentially weeing in the wind.

Just wanted you to know that 'weeing' is now my new word for the day. Agree with you on the repentance factor.

We do indeed as a society speaking collectively and not individually of course. This is not by accident. Disciples of men like Antonio Gramsci have been working for decades to make sure the Western populace was sufficiently dumbed down so as to prepare themselves for bondage and wicked masters. As that patriot William Penn so eloquently stated Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants. The Lords servants know this all to well so they continue to call for any who will listen to turn to Jesus Christ the God of this land or be swept off. We can only hope that Satans hold will not last much longer. :ymparty:

Well stated.....and I believe this (bold & underline) should be the measuring stick that we utilize for leaders and politicians (as well as live ourselves) if we can at all hope for escaping our awful situation. Measured in their actions and not just their statements.

(I agree with the whole the laws of Nature and Nature's God idea with respect to governing, but again, as you said, this should be our measuring stick. Over a century ago this christian nation decided to that plural marriage was immoral, or against the laws of Nature and Nature's God. All the more reason to choose wise and just leaders.)

I just got finished reading all the small books between Jacob and Mosiah...they are such a condensed summary of a huge portion of time--after reading them I thought, "that pretty much sums up the Book of Mormon." The whole pattern is there. The weakness of men, Jesus is our Savior; repentant, then hard hearted; wars and bloodshed. keeping the commandments, prosperity, pride, more wars and bloodshed.

This scripture popped out to me today...

Omni 1:6 For the Lord would not suffer, after he had led them out of the land of Jerusalem and kept and preserved them from falling into the hands of their enemies, yea, he would not suffer that the words should not be verified, which he spake unto our fathers, saying that: Inasmuch as ye will not keep my commandments ye shall not prosper in the land.

7 Wherefore, the Lord did visit them in great judgment; nevertheless, he did spare the righteous that they should not perish, but did deliver them out of the hands of their enemies.

The pattern continued and one generation later, Mosiah was warned of the Lord to flee out of the land of Nephi, and was led over into Zarahemla where he and his people joined the Mulekites.

I've been focused (vs. prior skimming) reading OT this year....and its amazing how many times that plays out with the Israelites (Israel & Judah) with the various kings....and even cycles during several kings reign such as King Solomon.

[jnjnelson]

I think, at this point, that question must be answered by each individual for each individual. Our representatives reflect the collective commitment we have to the Constitution of our government, and they largely indicate through their actions that the Constitution isn't important enough to follow, even when oaths are made to defend and protect it. As each of us become more and more committed to the principles of the Constitution, our representatives will slowly reflect that commitment. As for me, the Constitution is alive and well, as I study it regularly.

[Mark]

I think, at this point, that question must be answered by each individual for each individual. Our representatives reflect the collective commitment we have to the Constitution of our government, and they largely indicate through their actions that the Constitution isn't important enough to follow, even when oaths are made to defend and protect it. As each of us become more and more committed to the principles of the Constitution, our representatives will slowly reflect that commitment. As for me, the Constitution is alive and well, as I study it regularly.

Hey Joel long time no see. Glad to see you back. I think the constitution is a lot like the redemption of Zion. It will be preserved by the actions of one person at a time. If we hold its principles in our heart it will never die.

[Jason]

You and I have heard all our lives that the time may come when the Constitution may hang by a thread. I do not know whether it is a thread, or a small rope by which it now hangs, but I do know that whether it shall live or die is now in the balance.

- J. Reuben Clark, Jr., Conference Report, October 1942, p. 58

“Our great Constitution has been beaten and torn until now it hangs by a single thread, and that thread is our franchise to vote.”

-Ezra Taft Benson, 1976, Freeman Institute, Provo, Utah

It is no wonder that the Prophet Joseph said—even though he knew he would suffer martyrdom in this land—“The Constitution of the United States is a glorious standard; it is founded in the wisdom of God. It is a heavenly banner.”

Yet, according to his contemporaries, he foresaw the time when the destiny of the nation would be in danger and would hang as by a thread. Thank God he did not see the thread break. He also indicated the important part that this people should yet play in standing for the principles embodied in these sacred documents—the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1948, p. 85

When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the “Mormon” elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it.

– Brigham Young, JD 2:182, February 18, 1855, Latter Day Prophets Speaks. Pg. 230

When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States, the elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations. This is part of the program and as long as we do what is right and fear God He will help us and stand by us under all circumstances.

– John Taylor, JD 21:8, August 31, 1879

Brethren and sisters, let me say in closing that we have it of record, that the prophet Joseph Smith said the time will come when, through secret organizations taking the law into their own hands, not being governed by law or by due process of law, but becoming a law unto themselves, when, by those disintegrating activities, the Constitution of the United States would be so torn and rent asunder, and life and property and peace and security would be held of so little value, that the Constitution would, as it were, hang by a thread. But he never said, so far as I have heard, that that thread would be cut. I believe, with Elder Richards, that this Constitution will be preserved, but it will be preserved very largely in consequence of what the Lord has revealed and what this people, through listening to the Lord and being obedient, will help to bring about, to stabilize and give permanency and effect to the Constitution itself. That also is our mission. That also is what we are here for. I glory in it. I praise god with all my heart and soul that I am a member of it.

- Charles W. Nibley, Conference Report, October 1923, p. 62

The Lord's comments on the establishment of a king or dictatorship upon this promised land -

But behold, this land, said God, shall be a land of thine inheritance, and the Gentiles shall be blessed upon the land.

And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles.

And I will fortify this land against all other nations.

And he that fighteth against Zion shall perish, saith God.

For he that raiseth up a king against me shall perish, for I, the Lord, the king of heaven, will be their king, and I will be a light unto them forever, that hear my words.

Wherefore, for this cause, that my covenants may be fulfilled which I have made unto the children of men, that I will do unto them while they are in the flesh, I must needs destroy the secret works of darkness, and of murders, and of abominations.

Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/10?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....some insights on the prerequisites from the founding fathers...

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.

- Thomas Jefferson

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.

- Thomas Jefferson

We have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and true religion. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

- John Adams, The Changing Political Thought of John Adams, Howe, p. 189

Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious they have more need of masters.

- Benjamin Franklin, Speech at the Constitutional Convention, Sept. 17, 1787

A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins.

- Benjamin Franklin

Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.

- Samuel Adams

.....and with those precepts apply them to the following comments on the Constitution...

….As we have progressed the mist has been removed, and in relation to these matters, the Elders of Israel begin to understand that they have something to do with the world politically as well as religiously, that it is as much their duty to study correct political principles as well as religious, and to seek to know and comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn and be able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the interest of the world.

- John Taylor 1862, JD-9:340

It is time, therefore, that every American, and especially every member of the priesthood, became informed about the aims, tactics, and schemes of socialistic-communism. This becomes particularly important when it is realized that communism is turning out to be the earthly image of the plan which Satan presented in the pre-existence. The whole program of socialistic- communism is essentially a war against God and the plan of salvation—the very plan which we fought to uphold during ‘the war in heaven.’

- Ezra Taft Benson, Secret Combinations, Conference Report, October 1961

Any Christian constitutionalist who retreats from this battle jeopardizes his life here and hereafter. Seldom has so much responsibility hung on so few, so heavily; but our numbers are increasing, and we who have been warned have a responsibility to warn our neighbor.

- Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 591

Those who subscribe to this [totalitarian] philosophy stop at nothing to achieve their ends...force, trickery, lies, broken promises, mayhem, and individual and mass murder.

- Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1960

....and the judgments (comments in addition to what was posted previously)....

"All that you know now can scarcely be called a preface to the sermon that will be preached with fire and sword, tempests, earthquakes, hail, rain and fearful destruction. What matters the destruction of a few railway cars? You will hear of magnificent cities, now idolized by the people, sinking in the earth entombing its inhabitants. The sea will heave itself beyond its bounds, engulfing many cities. Famine will spread over the nation, and nation will rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom, states against states, in our own country and in foreign lands."

Brigham Young - Modin, D.: & Comstock, Tamara: Prophecy 1973-2000; 1972, Hermes House

"What then will be the condition of the people when the great and dreadful war will come? It will be very different from the war between the North and South. It will be neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, town against town, state against state, and they will go forth destroying and being destroyed. Manufacturing will almost cease, great cities will be left desolate. The time will come when the great city of New York will be left without inhabitants...

"When that day shall come (when the missionaries will be called home) there shall be wars, not such wars as have come in centuries and years that are past and gone, but a dsolating war. When I say desolating, I mean that it will lay these european nations in waste. Cities will be left vacated, without inhabitants. The people will be destroyed by the sword of their own hands. Not only this but many other cities will be burned; for when contending armies are wrought up with the terrible anger, without the Spirit of God upon them, when they have not that spirit of humanity that now characterizes many of the wars amongst nations, when they are left to themselves, there will be no quarter given, no prisoners taken, but a war of destruction, of desolation, of the burning of the cities and villages, until the land is laid desolate."

- Orson Pratt (J. Disc. 20: 150)

"The way ahead is dark and dreary and dreadful. There will yet be martyrs; the doors in Carthage shall again enclose the innocent. We have not been promised that the trials and evils of the world will entirely pass us by.”

“This is the great day of Satan’s power. Gadianton robbers fill the judgment seats in many nations. For those who finish their journey to Mount Zion, to stand with the Lamb, the way ahead is dark and dreary and dreadful. Our worst persecution is NOT behind us. The doors of Carthage shall again enclose the innocent. We shall yet weep more tears for Zion than we have ever known before.”

- Elder Bruce R. McConkie, October 1980 general conference

"Time is on the side of truth—and truth is eternal. Those who are fighting against freedom may feel confident now, but they are shortsighted.

This is still God's world. The forces of evil, working through some mortals, have made a mess of a good part of it. But it is still God's world. In due time, when each of us has had a chance to prove ourselves-including whether or not we are going to stand up for freedom—God will interject himself, and the final and eternal victory shall be for free agency. And then shall those complacent people on the sidelines, and those who took the wrong but temporarily popular course, lament their decisions. To the patriots I say this: Take that long eternal look. Stand up for freedom, no matter what the cost. Stand up and be counted. It can help to save your soul-and maybe your country.”

- Ezra Taft Benson, An Enemy Hath Done This, p. 62

I'll end this with portions of a talk given in 1937 by J. Reuben Clark, Jr. -

No Man Sees End

No thinking person doubts that our people, our nation, and the world are now passing through one of the great crises of the world's history. We are in the midst of a world-wide revolution, which is wholly alien to our free institutions and is foreign in birth, concept, and directing head. No man, of his own power, sees the end. But the end the revolutionists seek is fairly clear; it is the overturning of the whole existing order, political, financial, economic, social, religious, the complete destruction of our Constitution and the government established under it, and then the setting up of some sort of despotism that shall destroy, in all these fields, the free agency which the Lord gave to man. The revolutionists plan that this is to be largely done during the war, under the plea of war necessity; it is to be continued after the war under the excuse-if we are not then too cowed to require an excuse-that this new political order is necessary that we may rehabilitate the world. They count that then, after alittle time, the revolution will be secure. There seems no doubt that this is their conscious, deliberate, planned end. We have gone a long way already down this road.

Our Duty to Sustain the Constitution

Knowing as we do that God set up this Constitution of ours and that He has declared it "should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles," (D&C 101:77) it is the duty of every member of the Church to protect and defend the Constitution against any and all attack. In this country our lawful political allegiance runs not to any man, not to any party, not to any "ism," but to the Constitution of the United States and to the free institutions set up under it. There can be no tampering with the "just and holy principles" of the Constitution. No true Latter-day Saint can or will do other than reverence the Constitution; each will do all in his power to save it from pollution or destruction.

A Choice Land

With infinite patience, infinite mercy, infinite love, the Lord has tried to lead His children of this earth along the paths He has made for us, that we today might not become ripened in iniquity and subject to chastisement as were His children in the olden times. We who live on this hemisphere have a special blessing and a prescribed decree. This is the blessing:

Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ. (Ether 2:12.)

This is the decree:

Wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off. (Ether 2:10.)

May the Lord help us so to live that we enjoy the blessings and escape the decree.

Too many of us of this land have not hearkened to the voice of the Lord, nor observed His laws and commandments. The offenses of the peoples of the earth have been great; the eternal law seems to be that there must be an equal atonement.

Jesus said to His disciples:

"Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh! (Matthew 18:7.)

The Lord's Plans Will Triumph

But in all the afflictions we now have or that loom up ahead, it is my faith that the Lord is at the helm, for this is a major event in the history of man. It is my faith that nothing has happened and nothing will happen that is contrary to His plan or that is against His will. In the final event, God does not permit any trifling with His decrees. However far afield men may wander, Righteousness and Truth finally triumph. Of these things I have the same knowledge that I have that I live.

Of all peoples, we are, with this knowledge, the most blessed in the earth. Because, however dark may seem the days, we shall face our trials with the sure knowledge that God lives; we know that He can hear and answer our prayers according to His wisdom; we understand that we have an existence hereafter where we and our loved ones shall be forever safe from the ills of the flesh; we know that we shall have eternal happiness if we live and die righteously; we know that the Lord will bless and protect wherever he may be, every man who lives the principles of the Gospel and who does his duty.

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I look forward to the return of my Savior. He who will break the chains of the adversary and bring to a close his reign and dominion over the earth....to be locked up for a thousand years and only to be unleashed for a little season before the end commeth!

I dare say that no arm of the flesh will throw down the power of the adversary. His time is allotted. We make our respective choices. Do what's right and let the consequences follow. Battle for freedom in spirit and truth. But let us recognize where we can truly battle the most effectively and follow the lead of our chain of command who have been called by God to lead us in these latter days. Take heart in the destruction for it means the judgments of God are going forth to the convincing of many of His reality and to touch hearts that could not otherwise be touched. And those that gnash their teeth and turn away will get their due reward.

The righteous need not fear....not that a few wheat won't get pulled up with the tares but in the context of Come Come Ye Saints -

And should we die before our journey's through,
Happy day! All is well!
We then are free from toil and sorrow, too;
With the just we shall dwell!
But if our lives are spared again to see the Saints their rest obtain,
Oh, how we'll make this chorus swell-
All is well! All is well!

This is true optimism....in the face of whatever comes our way....through hope & faith in Heavenly Father and His son Jesus Christ!

But the wicked on the other hand.....well their hearts will fail them! I pray that my heart does not fail me!!!





Look to the Savior as He is the (only) way, the truth, and the light. He is our salvation. He is our conqueror! He tread the wine press alone! He is victorious over the adversary! The Father's will be done despite whatever our personal desires are.