Agent Provocateurs

[Samuel the Lamanite]

BrainM suggested that I start a thread on Agent Provocatuiers to help educate all to how much damage can be done when they invade an organization, forum, etc. There are some sadists out there who don't need money but have joy in breaking down unity. Over the 40 years of my political activities, I've learned the signs but as you can see from another thread, not always successfully. I hope you will learn to do the same. IMO, enemies of the Church have succesfully placed APs within lower parts of our Church. I know a lot of jokes, sarcasm, etc has been posted but this is serious business. The very best creator of APs is Lucifer.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/tea-party ... ateur.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/agent- ... en_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.offthegridnews.com/2011/02/1 ... ovocateur/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?ti ... rovocateur" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ehow.com/about_6704978_meani ... teur_.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a good beginning to help all be more of poliutical tactics all around us.

Why say ye?

[Original_Intent]

The John Birch Society dealt with agent provocateurs all the time. I think most are pretty easy to spot. And I think the JBS approach keeps APs out of an organization.

Our JBS group was always trying to recruit new people, but it was pretty interesting some of the hot-heads that briefly joined and then left because they wanted to belong to a group that was actually "doing something". APs really have no patience for educational efforts and groups that are committed to non-violent resistance.

APs, at least most of them, do not have the patience for letter writing campaigns, sign making, and working towards goals over decades. JBS "immunised" against moles by being very careful of who they selected for leadership, and being committed to a slow steady approach of education, and realizing that victory could not be realized thru violence, but only by winning over the hearts and minds of people. APs have nothing to work with among such a group.

A bigger problem on a forum such as this are moles and trolls. Where APs try to incite groups to violence or other illegal acts, moles and trolls often just seek to spread discord and keep a group from progressing. There can be a lot of motives, anything from personal amusement at causing carnage to monetary, political or even Satanic reasons. I think many of us here have a bit of an inner troll that we let come out to play from time to time. I know sometimes I post things that deep down I know I shouldn't. There are also many here that keep themselves above such things and i think that is commendable - even awe-inspiring considering some of the "flame bait" that has been tossed out for public consumption.

I don;t think we should accuse someone of being an AP just because we find them annoying, or even if they are quite trollish. Every forum has such people, and usually they are just attention whores who have nothing better to do than try to cause trouble. Nothing wrong with calling them out on the behavior, I just think that affixing the label of agent provocateur too hastily, can have the same effect of crying wolf too often - if used too freely, then it is unlikely to be as effective when we detect someone who is indeed acting as an AP.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

OI: Glad you've had some experience with APs in the JBS. I would add that APs don't only try to provoke violence but have many other goals. Did you read the links I posted or are you going solely on past experience with the JBS? You can be assured if an organiztion/forum is growing, successful, and pro liberty, there will be at least one AP.

FYI, I'm not a member of the JBS but do receive action alerts. I would say that 90+% of the time I do as they ask me.

[Original_Intent]

OI: Glad you've had some experience with APs in the JBS. I would add that APs don't only try to provoke violence but have many other goals. Did you read the links I posted or are you going solely on past experience with the JBS? You can be assured if an organiztion/forum is growing, successful, and pro liberty, there will be at least one AP.

FYI, I'm not a member of the JBS but do receive action alerts. I would say that 90+% of the time I do as they ask me.

I did not read them all but I am now:

1st link -

In something right out of Pre-Napoleonic law enforcement, it seems Cass Sunstein is bringing back the Agent Provocateur. There may be an effort afoot by the administration to try and encourage and push tea parties to take up tactics of the radical protest tactics of modern day anarchists and leftists in an effort to discredit the movement.

2nd link -

After the incidents at Montebello and Pittsburg, Sid Ryan claimed it was not beyond the police to use agent provocateur tactics to try to provoke violence at the G20 riots in Toronto.

3rd link -

An agent provocateur is the well-used tactic of using undercover military or police to join a dissenting group or protest in order to provoke others in the group to carry out illegal actions and violence.

4th link - (I disagree with some of this and again I think the author is confusing, at least partially agents provocateur and other subversives such as moles.)

An agent provocateur is a person assigned to provoke unrest, violence, debate or argument by or within a group while acting as a member of the group but covertly representing the interests of another. In general, agents provacateur seek to secretly disrupt a group's activities from within the group.

Agents provocatuer are employed to disrupt or discredit a group by performing acts for which the group will be falsely accused, by leading the group into activities that they would not otherwise pursue or by creating discord between group members. Provacateurs may encourage illegal acts, recomend belligerant tactics a group might otherwise reject, spread false rumors intended to provoke hasty action by a group, spread malicious rumors within a group about a group member or employ other tactics intended to provoke improper action by a group or to divert a group from its chosen purpose. An agent provocateur might attempt to implicate as an accomplice an innocent target who the agent unwittingly involves in a crime or criminal conspiracy.

Agents provocateur sometimes try to disrupt a group by creating discord between group members. They may argue for unity, while themselves promoting diviseness. They may argue against factionalism, while consistently advancing the positions or actions of one faction in the group. Disruptive group members might not be agents provocateur if they do not represent an outside interest; the term "agent" usually implies representation of or employment by another interest.

5th link -

Traditionally, an agent provocateur (plural: agents provocateurs, French for "inciting agent(s)") is a person employed by the police or other entity to act undercover to entice or provoke another person to commit an illegal act. More generally, the term may refer to a person or group that seeks to discredit or harm another by provoking them to commit a wrong or rash action.

6th link -

Agents provocateurs have been used by police forces all over the world. The name is derived from French, and it means "inciting agents." They are used in crowd situations by the police in an attempt to incite illegal activity among suspects for the purpose of evidence gathering.

Read more: What Is the Meaning of Agent Provocateur? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_6704978_meani ... z1RzwjWUrm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All but the 4th link pretty much say exactly what I said - APs are people who infiltrate a group and try to get them to act violently or illegally for the purposes of discrediting a group. The 4th link adds some definition that in my opinion is inaccurate,a nd they ascribe behvior of moles or even trolls to agent provocateurs. Being provocative or trying to get a reaction (i.e. flame bait) does not make on an agent provocateur, it may just mean the person is a jerk who likes to cause contention.

[HeirofNumenor]

IMO, enemies of the Church have successfully placed APs within lower parts of our Church.

I am not sure that enemies of the Church have done the placing (if any AP's do exist in LDS), so much as there are some who do not agree with either the Church's positions, or The Constitution, and otherwise agree with the goals in some part of outside entities - be they secret combinations, the Gov't, or either political party...these can ultimately be found out by those wishing to corrupt...and either converted to their cause, or else ensnared, blackmailed, bribed, etc....though some Bishops/Stake Presidents can be vulnerable, if they aren't living fully in harmony with the gospel and especially the law of chastity....the biggest snare, then next is money....

So far, the likely aspects that I see this potentially occurring (not making accusations) are dealing with the GOP, big financial interests, or possibly homosexual groups/issues (the most visible group advocating the Church change it's doctrine).

Even if it just starts with wishful thinking..."Wouldn't it be nice if...?"

[Samuel the Lamanite]

OI: Thank you for doing your research. All the links can and many more can easily be found by Googling.

You made a great point about distinquishing among APs and moles and trolls. I think you will find that their objctives overlap. See the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_(espionage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

[JohnnyL]

A very clear example was when a violent guy in Denmark(?) got surrounded by pacifists during a peaceful rally, and the guy pulled his gun, then made his way over to the police, where he was safe... (something like that, from memory)

noworldsystem.com/category/staged-riots/

#agentprovocateurs for examples on twitter

[Original_Intent]

A very clear example was when a violent guy in Denmark(?) got surrounded by pacifists during a peaceful rally, and the guy pulled his gun, then made his way over to the police, where he was safe... (something like that, from memory)

noworldsystem.com/category/staged-riots/

#agentprovocateurs for examples on twitter

There was an example in Canada when the WTO was demonstrated against. The protestors were all yelling at the police that "He's NOT with us." Eventually the police took the three masked guys away and later it came out they were cops. X(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAfzUOx5 ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HeirofNumenor]

A very clear example was when a violent guy in Denmark(?) got surrounded by pacifists during a peaceful rally, and the guy pulled his gun, then made his way over to the police, where he was safe... (something like that, from memory)

noworldsystem.com/category/staged-riots/

#agentprovocateurs for examples on twitter

There was an example in Canada when the WTO was demonstrated against. The protestors were all yelling at the police that "He's NOT with us." Eventually the police took the three masked guys away and later it came out they were cops. X(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAfzUOx5 ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I remember that...

[davedan]

The lDS Church experienced Agent Provocateurs in Missouri. Remember the fabled Danites. What better way to start a war then infiltrate the Church to incite conflict from inside and outside.

The title "Danites" has absolutely no meaning to the LDS. But if you follow Satan, this title means a lot. Only after learning the history of the Tribe of Dan, the realization of Agent Provocateurs infiltrating the church becomes apparent.

I listened to an AP speak at a stake fireside last year. This person has involved herself in Beauty Pageants and Finishing Schools, and gave a hint in her talk that her late husband was a member of Bohemian Grove. She is also a member of several other questionable elite societies. She hangs around EFY and recruits and corrupts LDS youth.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Brothers and Sisters: I'm very pleased that many are recognizing the great dangers of APs, moles and trolls in disrupting Constitutionalists attempts at restoring our Constitutional Republic. In a way when these folks show up, you know you're having a good effect in the market place. They don't bother with losers.

I had forgotten about the Danites. Also, happened in Nauvoo but in this case a member of the 1st Presidency in coordination with Dr. Bennett.

Let's for a moment pretend that we are Satan. Who is your greatest enemy? The Restored Church. As Satan would you simply ignore your greatest enemy or would you infiltrate the Church with APs and moles at EVERY level? I know my first priority would be the Church. What say ye?

[Mark]

Brothers and Sisters: I'm very pleased that many are recognizing the great dangers of APs, moles and trolls in disrupting Constitutionalists attempts at restoring our Constitutional Republic. In a way when these folks show up, you know you're having a good effect in the market place. They don't bother with losers.

I had forgotten about the Danites. Also, happened in Nauvoo but in this case a member of the 1st Presidency in coordination with Dr. Bennett.

Let's for a moment pretend that we are Satan. Who is your greatest enemy? The Restored Church. As Satan would you simply ignore your greatest enemy or would you infiltrate the Church with APs and moles at EVERY level? I know my first priority would be the Church. What say ye?

May I just say that it is a common communist ploy to use AP's in different setting so as to foment violence and rioting and call for anarchistic behaviour. Spetsnaz and the KGB have used this tool for years against their enemies as a divide and conquer technique. I am very suspicious of some in both the far right and the far left the likes of people like Lyndon LaRouche and Webster Tarpley and Alex Jones and those that Glenn Beck spoke of often on his show in the Obama camp in this country that they may be employed in this capacity as AP's to cause disruption and discord to divide the people of the United States. I guess time will tell the story of who really is for us and who is against us.

[7cylon7]

Another quick lesson in history on what happens to APs. The brown shirts of Hitler. Without the brown shirts Hitler would never ever have gained power. They were the AP of his movement. They did all the work and support. Once in power!!!! Hitler made a new group, secretly the SS and in one night gathered up all the Brown shirts and killed them all. The brown shirts new how to get power and Hitler wanted them all dead to secure his power. This has happened over and over and over again. That is the double cross of all these secret societies. They use you to get power and then when power is obtained they take you out.

[tmac]

Sam, I know you've got me blocked, but I want to thank you for leading an on-point discussion of APs and their tactics, etc. I'm also relieved to know that Mark isn't one -- and/or if he is (even a wannabe), according to your sources, he's really not that good at AP tactics. Think what he could do -- even by accident -- if he had better AP tactic skills.

[7cylon7]

Brothers and Sisters: I'm very pleased that many are recognizing the great dangers of APs, moles and trolls in disrupting Constitutionalists attempts at restoring our Constitutional Republic. In a way when these folks show up, you know you're having a good effect in the market place. They don't bother with losers.

I had forgotten about the Danites. Also, happened in Nauvoo but in this case a member of the 1st Presidency in coordination with Dr. Bennett.

Let's for a moment pretend that we are Satan. Who is your greatest enemy? The Restored Church. As Satan would you simply ignore your greatest enemy or would you infiltrate the Church with APs and moles at EVERY level? I know my first priority would be the Church. What say ye?

May I just say that it is a common communist ploy to use AP's in different setting so as to foment violence and rioting and call for anarchistic behaviour. Spetsnaz and the KGB have used this tool for years against their enemies as a divide and conquer technique. I am very suspicious of some in both the far right and the far left the likes of people like Lyndon LaRouche and Webster Tarpley and Alex Jones and those that Glenn Beck spoke of often on his show in the Obama camp in this country that they may be employed in this capacity as AP's to cause disruption and discord to divide the people of the United States. I guess time will tell the story of who really is for us and who is against us.

LOL Alex Jones a AP? Sir you are mistaken on this one. He is only sharing truth that is all documented. He states clearly all his sources. If he does not have a source then he says so. Alex is allowed to exist just as you say they like the left right paradigm.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Mark: IMO you may be a little too suspicious about those who you named. One can become too cynical and trust no one. That tends to lead to INACTION in the battle for Liberty.

IF one knows about APs and moles and how they act, one can often see such people in action. I don't like the fact that Beck avoids some topics like 911 and Brithers: even mocks them. I don't know the second person you named but LaRouche, although on the left, has great insights and economic knowledge. He is currently pushing two things:

1. Get rid of Obama by using Amendment 26 rather than BC or impeachment. Yes, he thinks Obama is destroying America.
2. Reinstituting Glass-Steagall which was rescinded in 1999. Many if NOT all of the banking fraud/problems/specualtion we've expereinced in the last 20 years started with G-S.

The 13th Article of faith is a great guideline to follow. There is some truth in almost everything: look for that but toss out th trest.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

7cyclon: I see by your posts here that you have searched out use of APs and moles. Please share more information from your sercah.

[HeirofNumenor]

Mark: IMO you may be a little too suspicious about those who you named. One can become too cynical and trust no one. That tends to lead to INACTION in the battle for Liberty.

IF one knows about APs and moles and how they act, one can often see such people in action. I don't like the fact that Beck avoids some topics like 911 and Brithers: even mocks them. I don't know the second person you named but LaRouche, although on the left, has great insights and economic knowledge. He is currently pushing two things:

1. Get rid of Obama by using Amendment 26 rather than BC or impeachment. Yes, he thinks Obama is destroying America.
2. Reinstituting Glass-Steagall which was rescinded in 1999. Many if NOT all of the banking fraud/problems/speculation we've experienced in the last 20 years started with G-S.

The 13th Article of faith is a great guideline to follow. There is some truth in almost everything: look for that but toss out th trest.

While I am sometimes in doubt about LaRouche - and Alex Jones as well (little green men), I am glad that LaRouche is pushing for the 2 points you mentioned - 26 Amend. to remove Obama, and reinstate Glass-Steagull....

Now if we could just reverse US. v. Butler, USSC 1936. @-)

[HeirofNumenor]

I listened to an AP speak at a stake fireside last year. This person has involved herself in Beauty Pageants and Finishing Schools, and gave a hint in her talk that her late husband was a member of Bohemian Grove. She is also a member of several other questionable elite societies. She hangs around EFY and recruits and corrupts LDS youth.

Not to doubt you Davedan, but how in your view does this woman recruit and corrupt LDS youth? What did she speak about at that fireside?

[Matthew.B]

Very good discussion, I think.

May I suggest that, in addition to everything that's been said, they most key thing in flushing out AP's is the spirit of discernment, which may be granted to us if we ask for it? In one forum I posted at for a few years there were a few who were good at flushing out hidden trolls (I highly doubt they were professional AP's, but still the same thing) with secret agendas to impair the community and break down the faith of the members (it was an LDS forum). I asked one about it, and he said he had been given the spirit of discernment to the degree that he could see what the trolls were doing.

[Mark]

Mark: IMO you may be a little too suspicious about those who you named. One can become too cynical and trust no one. That tends to lead to INACTION in the battle for Liberty.

IF one knows about APs and moles and how they act, one can often see such people in action. I don't like the fact that Beck avoids some topics like 911 and Brithers: even mocks them. I don't know the second person you named but LaRouche, although on the left, has great insights and economic knowledge. He is currently pushing two things:

1. Get rid of Obama by using Amendment 26 rather than BC or impeachment. Yes, he thinks Obama is destroying America.
2. Reinstituting Glass-Steagall which was rescinded in 1999. Many if NOT all of the banking fraud/problems/specualtion we've expereinced in the last 20 years started with G-S.

The 13th Article of faith is a great guideline to follow. There is some truth in almost everything: look for that but toss out th trest.

I think you are not suspicious enough Samuel. Just because someone might agree with you on some issues does not make them patriots. Just research LaRouche's past and you will see some very suspect things about him. I see past marxist ideology connected with him and I would bet he is dirty. I don't trust Jones as far as I can throw him. He has lied and manipulated and sensationalized time and again and I think he has ulterior motives. It may just be the money but it may go a lot deeper than that. As untrusting as you have been with me I am surprised you don't question some of these characters.

[Original_Intent]

Whatever AJ's motives may be, I don't think money is a big one. He puts out a ton of well produced videos and practically begs people to copy them and distribute them.

He definitely goes over the top and is a drama queen sometimes, but I believe his heart is in the right place, he is more awake than most and does more to wake up people than most.

Sometimes AJ rubs me the wrong way due to his antics, and yes he certainly will overstate his case or make a mountain out of a molehill. However, sometimes with the public as blind as they are, it takes a mountain for them to be able to see it.

[HeirofNumenor]

Whatever AJ's motives may be, I don't think money is a big one. He puts out a ton of well produced videos and practically begs people to copy them and distribute them.

He definitely goes over the top and is a drama queen sometimes, but I believe his heart is in the right place, he is more awake than most and does more to wake up people than most.

Sometimes AJ rubs me the wrong way due to his antics, and yes he certainly will overstate his case or make a mountain out of a molehill. However, sometimes with the public as blind as they are, it takes a mountain for them to be able to see it.

Do you think that perhaps Alex Jones either knowingly or is allowed to promote "the truth" about the existence of secret combinations in order to be a snare or to entrap the resistance? If you recall George Orwell's "1984" ("Nineteen Eighty-Four"), the protagonist Winston Smith was given "The Book" by Obrien - a top level inside. "The Book"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four
The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism, said to have been written by the infamous and publicly reviled Emmanuel Goldstein, near-mythic leader of the Brotherhood. This work explains the perpetual war and the slogans, WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, and IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH, as well as formulating the plan by which the regime could be overthrown, specifically the rise of political and social awareness of the Proles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_war
These nations are in a state of perpetual war with each other. The state of war is used by each of the states to justify the control of their populations using Stalinist or other methods. By artificially creating fear and hate of an enemy, the actual existence of which is never made completely certain, the governments provided an excuse for their failures and, in the case of Oceania, enforced obedience to Big Brother. Moreover, eternal war formed the bedrock of the economy, as people could be kept busy manufacturing goods that would not improve their living standards, but would instead be destroyed on the battlefields. Thus perpetual war not only kept the population busy, it also encouraged a "siege mentality" in which hatred of the enemy and love for the government's protection were social norms.

Interestingly, Obrien also told Winston Smith that, not only did perpetual war prevent the people from increasing their standard of living, it also prevented them from realizing that they don't need elites to be above them, to lead or rule over them...if they had freedom, there would be no needs for the elites.


So: any possibility that Alex Jones is somehow filling a propagada or psychops / counter-intelligence role against the patriot resistance?

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Mark: Isn't it great to have agency and liberty so we can choose who we wish to learn from. I would simply ask about LaRouche, are these good goals or rather goals of an AP? Did you look out how easily we could get rid of Obama in the 25th Amendment? Did you look up anything about Glass-Steagal? or was this simply an emotional reaction. To help, here are two links:

1. http://www.doctorzebra.com/prez/a_amendment25.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-Steagall_Act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

OT: The first thing one must do to cahnge soemone is unfreezing their current thinking/acting. Certainly Mark and others can question the unfreezing methods of AJ. I look at the message more than the delivery style of the messenger.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Heiro: Perhaps. It's very hard to know who to trust other than the Godhead.

The biggest question I think that needs to be answered about AJ is given what he reveals about the SC, why hasn't he "had an accident?" If I was Part of the SC, I would insure that he had some type of "accident." It's really not hard to do even if AJ spent millions on security.

So... ???????