Immigration role play. You are the judge.

[NoGreaterLove]

I think role playing might help each of us take a look at ourselves and how we feel about the issue of immigration. If you would like to participate please read on.
Lets pretend we are a judge with the power to make things happen as we see fit. The decision is totally up to us. What we say, will happen. (I know this is not a real world example and would never happen) The purpose of this is to think about this issue and try to understand all sides of the issue instead of pointing fingers and calling names.

The scenario:

You walk into a very large prison holding illegal immigrants from all nations who have come into your country illegally. In this prison, are two camps divided by large walls to keep them separated.

In camp 1 you have millions who came across the border carrying drugs to deliver to those who sell it in the U.S.. Some have come here because they raped, murdered or committed some serious crimes in another country and were evading prosecution. Others came to plant fields of Marijuana, other to expand cartels, mafias, secret combinations, etc.. Others have come to establish terrorists cells or sleepers. Other have come to infiltrate government facilities in order to attack them. These people are bad. They are a menace and a threat to our society.

In camp 2 you have a totally different group. You see very good people, people who fled their country in order to save their family from starvation, crime, corrupt government, death. Others just wanted to live in a free society to come and go as they choose. Still others just had a great financial opportunity and took it. These folks would be great contributing citizens. They have good intentions, they want to be a part of what we have.

You have the power. It is in your ballpark. Whatever you command will be done!

How will you handle this situation?

[NoGreaterLove]

Please, if you respond, try to control your emotions and make rational statements. If this gets out of hand, I will ask Brian to delete it. I believe we can begin to understand each other in a civil way. Even if we do not agree, at least we can come and understanding and try to see this from various points of view.

[Zkulptor]

Investigate people in both camps... and then based on whether they are decent people or not either send them to their countries, or let them stay here, help them out...

[Article of Faith]

Have them all deported, with the stipulation that if they return illegally, they serve a 20 year prison term with no parole.
Then have each immigrant apply for immigration, like all others in the world, and have an effective screening of each applicant.
ANyone with criminal backgrounds, etc. will not be allowed. The others will have the same opportunity as all those all over the world seeking for immigration to the US.

[HeirofNumenor]

I'll bite...given that their countries of origin will not take them back, unless we FORCE them to...which frankly would likely involve acts of war...

Camp 2...verify every one insomuch as possible as to their motives, character, identity...and keep them in the camp until we could find suitable people/entities to be sponsors for these good people (or transfer them like Hurricane Katrina refugees). In the meantime train them in English, proper Constitutionalism & American values, see what sort of vocational abilities they have, and start training them for a variety of tasks. Help them take care of their camp and grow their own food.

Camp 1...verify identities, crimes, motives...and utilize widespread summary judgment and execute them all - their own countries will not take them back (and if they did, I do not trust them to keep them in prison), and you can't keep them there forever, like the Palestinian refugee camps in other Arab nations, or like Camp Gitmo.
Alma 51: 15,19 (13-21)

Okay that was me being harsh...

[shadow]

Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves. Those that can't will need to be sent home. Obviously those that rape, murder, plunder and steal can't and some of those crimes should be punished by death. Rapist's and murderer's should be given a death sentence, then their bodies can be shipped back to their home C.O.D. (legal or not)

My 2 cents

[SmallFarm]

Forgive them. Set them free. Teach them with kind words, reproving with sharpness at times, showing an increase of love afterwards.
Same for both camps.

[Original_Intent]

Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves. Those that can't will need to be sent home. Obviously those that rape, murder, plunder and steal can't and some of those crimes should be punished by death. Rapist's and murderer's should be given a death sentence, then their bodies can be shipped back to their home C.O.D. (legal or not)

My 2 cents

Yep.

[durangout]

Forgive them. Set them free. Teach them with kind words, reproving with sharpness at times, showing an increase of love afterwards.
Same for both camps.

Did you forget to include "(sarcasm)" at the end of your post?

[durangout]

I'll bite...given that their countries of origin will not take them back, unless we FORCE them to...which frankly would likely involve acts of war...

Camp 2...verify every one insomuch as possible as to their motives, character, identity...and keep them in the camp until we could find suitable people/entities to be sponsors for these good people (or transfer them like Hurricane Katrina refugees). In the meantime train them in English, proper Constitutionalism & American values, see what sort of vocational abilities they have, and start training them for a variety of tasks. Help them take care of their camp and grow their own food.

Camp 1...verify identities, crimes, motives...and utilize widespread summary judgment and execute them all - their own countries will not take them back (and if they did, I do not trust them to keep them in prison), and you can't keep them there forever, like the Palestinian refugee camps in other Arab nations, or like Camp Gitmo.
Alma 51: 15,19 (13-21)

Okay that was me being harsh...

I'm good with your response for Camp 1. My problem with your (I'm not singling you out I'm just using your post to spring board from)Camp 2 response is that yet again they become a burden upon our society--one that we can't afford. It would be wonderful if we could do that for them, but we just can't be responsible for them. We have people who are our own legal citizens for whom we can't care. Adding additional burdens would simple propel us to collapse that much faster. Between taxes/tithes/offerings I have less than 60% of my stress-filled income left to support my family. With that pittence, I have to pay for a house, food, utilities, college, clothes, gas, car repairs, health care (illegals' can be free)...How much more socialism (taking from me to give to someone else who didn't earn it) can we support?

Therefore deport Camp 2 and begin leving HEAVY fines on employers that hire illegals. I don't suggest that we go around rouding up illegals (it costs way too much). Those that are here and are porductive, not committing other crimes and paying taxes should just be left alone.

[SmallFarm]

Forgive them. Set them free. Teach them with kind words, reproving with sharpness at times, showing an increase of love afterwards.
Same for both camps.

Did you forget to include "(sarcasm)" at the end of your post?

Not at all this is my stance on the subject. I believe in opening up the prisons. If someone comes to my home trying to rob me or steal from me they won't try long In the end, God is the one who ultimately protects us.
I had some weeds growing in the garden. They had horrible burrs on them making them a terrible nuisance. I've burned and mowed and pulled (I'm sure Roundup would kill em all but no way anything like that is going in my garden. I decided I needed help with an organic solution so I looked these terrible weeds up online so I could first identify what they were so I could then look up how to take care of them. Turns out that "Sand Burrs" as they are called are known as 'pioneer plants', meaning that they are the first to move into bare soil and enrich it, they actually make the soil more fertile. I found out that the worst thing I could do was to burn them because it released all the nutrients stored in their leaf litter, forever lost to the wind. I also found out that if you just keep watering and mowing the sand burrs it will help build a humus and the humic acid formed from this process actually kills the seed of the sand burr. Although I can't personally attest to this working (I only found this information this winter) I can say I will be trying a new approach this year

[Jason]

Forgive them. Set them free. Teach them with kind words, reproving with sharpness at times, showing an increase of love afterwards.
Same for both camps.

Did you forget to include "(sarcasm)" at the end of your post?

Not at all this is my stance on the subject. I believe in opening up the prisons. If someone comes to my home trying to rob me or steal from me they won't try long In the end, God is the one who ultimately protects us.
I had some weeds growing in the garden. They had horrible burrs on them making them a terrible nuisance. I've burned and mowed and pulled (I'm sure Roundup would kill em all but no way anything like that is going in my garden. I decided I needed help with an organic solution so I looked these terrible weeds up online so I could first identify what they were so I could then look up how to take care of them. Turns out that "Sand Burrs" as they are called are known as 'pioneer plants', meaning that they are the first to move into bare soil and enrich it, they actually make the soil more fertile. I found out that the worst thing I could do was to burn them because it released all the nutrients stored in their leaf litter, forever lost to the wind. I also found out that if you just keep watering and mowing the sand burrs it will help build a humus and the humic acid formed from this process actually kills the seed of the sand burr. Although I can't personally attest to this working (I only found this information this winter) I can say I will be trying a new approach this year

I love your approach....at least with the garden. Do appreciate the faith/trust in the protection of God as well....but tempered with a little Brigham Young reality. Reason 1/3 got the boot...in fact had to be "cast down". I'd sooner go the J Golden Kimball approach on the prisons.....drown them all and do baptisms for the dead.

But to each their own! Grateful we are all different! Learn something from everybody!

[SmallFarm]

drown them all and do baptisms for the dead.

Actually there are some that I do feel it is a better mercy end their life. I would not want to be their judge though.

[Jason]

drown them all and do baptisms for the dead.

Actually there are some that I do feel it is a better mercy end their life. I would not want to be their judge though.

....nah that's for another.....just arrange the meeting!

[pritchet1]

May Day Parade flopped in "protest" for illegals in L.A. So we know who is pushing for illegal immigration amnesty, etc. Color me Red!
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/36075" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[NoGreaterLove]

I appreciate the civility expressed so far. Thanks. I hope we can keep an open dialogue going with all sides voicing their concerns in a peaceful manner. Once again thanks.

[Original_Intent]

drown them all and do baptisms for the dead.

Actually there are some that I do feel it is a better mercy end their life. I would not want to be their judge though.

At one time I (more or less) would have agreed with Jason. Now, I think there are too many who are merely "enemies of the state" who are incarcerated. I certainly wouldn't mind the approach with any convicted murderers, thieves (white AND blue collar versions), and forcible rapists. (Not statutory rapists who had consentual relations - they had bad judgement only (in most cases) and certaily didn;t do anything worthy of capital punishment.) The only reason I make the point of the exclusion is I have a friend who is currently UNJUSTLY serving 10 years - no priors - due to choosing someone too young (he was ib his early twenties at the time. Anyway...

Point is there are now VAST numbers of inmates who have harmed no one but themselves - if anything they need treatment, not incarceration.

[Jason]

drown them all and do baptisms for the dead.

Actually there are some that I do feel it is a better mercy end their life. I would not want to be their judge though.

At one time I (more or less) would have agreed with Jason. Now, I think there are too many who are merely "enemies of the state" who are incarcerated. I certainly wouldn't mind the approach with any convicted murderers, thieves (white AND blue collar versions), and forcible rapists. (Not statutory rapists who had consentual relations - they had bad judgement only (in most cases) and certaily didn;t do anything worthy of capital punishment.) The only reason I make the point of the exclusion is I have a friend who is currently UNJUSTLY serving 10 years - no priors - due to choosing someone too young (he was ib his early twenties at the time. Anyway...

Point is there are now VAST numbers of inmates who have harmed no one but themselves - if anything they need treatment, not incarceration.

True!!!

[NoGreaterLove]

When releasing someone from prison, the question I would ask myself is, would I want them living next door to me, trust them around my family and with unlocked doors.

[Jason]

When releasing someone from prison, the question I would ask myself is, would I want them living next door to me, trust them around my family and with unlocked doors.

....and that all comes down to a case by case basis that (I don't think) could be easily made with broad brush strokes....

[SmallFarm]

When releasing someone from prison, the question I would ask myself is, would I want them living next door to me, trust them around my family and with unlocked doors.

You never pick who your neighbor is and you never really know what goes on in their private lives. But we must love them nevertheless. That's not to say you hang a sign on your door saying "Free loot be inside mateys" and I personally have several detererrents in my house which include but are not limited to my great dane with a scarey loud bark and my boston terriers the have a tendancy to sneak behind you and nip if they don't recognize you

[NoGreaterLove]

When releasing someone from prison, the question I would ask myself is, would I want them living next door to me, trust them around my family and with unlocked doors.

....and that all comes down to a case by case basis that (I don't think) could be easily made with broad brush strokes....

Very much agreed!

[NoGreaterLove]

When releasing someone from prison, the question I would ask myself is, would I want them living next door to me, trust them around my family and with unlocked doors.

You never pick who your neighbor is and you never really know what goes on in their private lives. But we must love them nevertheless. That's not to say you hang a sign on your door saying "Free loot be inside mateys" and I personally have several detererrents in my house which include but are not limited to my great dane with a scarey loud bark and my boston terriers the have a tendancy to sneak behind you and nip if they don't recognize you

Yea the Boston Terriers would be my worst nighmare. Great Danes make wonderful lap dogs.

[natasha]

I just want everyone to know that I served for two years in Utah State Prison in one of their Family History Centers. (They have FOUR) These men had the opportunity to work on their own genealogy or help with the indexing program of the Church. The Family History Center was open for usually two hour shifts three times a day. It was always full. I had the opportunity to also attend many of their musical recitals (some awesome talent inside). What I observed was maybe 3-5% hispanic, perhaps a few more blacks, and a few Native Americans. The majority were white males...and the majority of them were raised LDS. Of course, that would probably be true of the white population here in Utah. I never felt that I was in any jeopardy while there. I was always treated with the greatest respect. Now, of course, many were motivated to be on their best behavior or lose the privilege of being there. I had absolutely no doubt that if any kind of incident were to occur, they would have my back immediately. I never asked why they were there...but many volunteered that information in conversing with them. Obviously, they out index any Stake in the Church and also do incredible work on their own genealogy and submitting names for temple work. All this WITHOUT the internet. Many have families...wives...children...etc. Many have been disowned by their families and have no visits from "outside". The Church built one of the Chapels there for them and the Family History Center I volunteered in was just off that particular Chapel. In the Chapel, many men came to knit or crochet for various service projects. Regardless of the fact that many of them had indeed committed crimes worthy of incarceration, it still tugged at my heart to see some of these men covered with tattoos and looking pretty "dark", sitting in the Chapel crocheting small baby caps for premature babies, etc.

One of the men who attended my Family History Center was a catholic...but he came to Utah many years ago...graduated from BYU...worked in one of the school districts for many years and was also a swimming coach. He had about 7,000 names in his data base. I noted one day that many of them had temple work done for them. I asked him how come, him being a catholic, he had submitted so many names (about 3,000). His answer was simply that if we were right he had done a good thing...if they were right (catholics)...it didn't hurt anything. Well, he has been out now for about a year which has made it o.k. for me to contact him. (found him on a genealogy site on the internet where he had left his email address). I emailed him...he answered right back. He lives in Salt Lake and cleans the place for part of his board. His daughter bought him a computer and he spends most of his free time at the Family History Center in SLC. He has become an excellent genealogist and one of the most thorough researchers I have met. I'm hoping to get up there after my knee replacement surgery this week to visit with him at the FHC.

O.K...now that I've gone on and on...fortunately, some (and the stats are small) are able to make it on the outside...most do not. Having viewed a little of what goes on in there, I have come to the conclusion that most of our correctional facilities probably do not do much "correcting". It takes a pretty strong willed person to be able to change their lives in that environment.

My friend I would have no trouble living next door to. Many others would make me pretty nervous. However, perhaps we might want to take a longer, harder look at our system. Yes, they are being punished...but so few are really prepared to make it on the outside...thus the recitivism rate is high. If any of you are interested, you might think about getting involved with volunteering or maybe even getting involved with the family home evening program they have there. ...."if you have done it unto the least of these"....

At any rate, this thread has evolved into something a little different than the subject statement. Each case would have to be judged on its own. These men will forever be followed by their records. It is pretty near impossible to get adequate employment, etc. & etc. It's a dilemma...I don't have the answers but they certainly are worthy of pursuit. I know we have been instructed when disciplining our children that we afterwards show an increase of love. Yes, yes...I know the difference...but the application might just be the same...who knows. Things aren't always black or white. For what it's worth.....

[wiser2]

I believe the principles explained in the Declaration of Independence. That God gave us the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I believe that God gives us the right to work and to exist. I believe that those who deny others those rights will suffer the judgment of God - being judged as they judge, and losing their right to work and exist. I also believe that the people permit the government to operate, and that the government should issue permits for people to work or to exist. Therefore, if I were judge, I would do my best to find who imprisoned those who have not committed crimes, and I would imprison them, since they have committed false imprisonment. And, I believe they pose one of the greatest risks to all of our liberty. (one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for ALL)

I would also do my best to prosecute/sentence fairly those who have committed crimes. Fairly would have a lot to do with similar punishment for damage actually done, and if possible restoring to the victims. As Jesus Christ has taught, mercy is a critical component of justice. So, all of my actions would be like I herd cows. Once the cow moves in the direction I desire, I stop bothering it. And so I think we should do with people. My goal is not to be vindictive, but educational and changing. I ask that people change to be contributors rather than destroyers. Once they truly change, I believe they should walk free. Although, I understand that detecting true change can be very difficult for mortals.