Any Supporters of the Independent American Party out there?

[JasonI am a nobody!]

Or works of repentance? Are we judged according to our works of repentance Jason? How about "our" works of forgiving others, will we be judged according to those works?

Jason, it all boils down to our works of repentance, and Lundbeck, our works of forgiveness! Eventually everybody will repent, and obviously everybody, "but" Mitt Romney haters will forgive!

And who has the greater sin?


Bob

Aren't works of repentance - righteousness???

Don't hate Mitt Romney.....hate his works....or lack there of. Big difference!

I don't believe everyone will repent. Cain, Laman, Lemuel, Judas, etc etc etc. Like poles of a magnet.....some are attracted (via their hearts) to one side over the other.....with many happy in the middle. Hence the need for "many mansions in My house"!

David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/ ... ang=eng#38

And when the time cometh that evil fruit shall again come into my vineyard, then will I cause the good and the bad to be gathered; and the good will I preserve unto myself, and the bad will I cast away into its own place.

http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/jacob/5?lang=eng

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

The point for me is that Mitt just isn't the guy I want in power. He's better than most IMO but I think there's better options than him. It isn't a matter of me forgiving or not. I just don't agree with him.
It's like when President Monson said some divorces are justified. It doesn't always matter if the spouse repents later or not, what have you done for me lately comes into play. I wouldn't let my kids play at the same house where a child molester lives, even if he eventually repents. I'm saving him from having to repent more by not allowing my child to be a victim. In a similar way it could be said that by not supporting Mitt I'm trying to keep him from making some big mistakes that he would have to repent of. I'm such a swell guy

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

For the benefit of people new to this thread, some members of this forum are unsupportive of Mitt Romney as a presidential candidate because of his demonstrated disdain for certain moral principles promoted by the LDS Church (and others as well), for disdain for certain principles of the Constitution of the United States as the Founding Fathers intended it to be understood, and for stating in a nationally broadcast TV interview that the last time he know of that God spoke to man was to Moses at the bush. There seems to be no evidence that Mitt Romney has acknowledged, repented of or even forsaken any of his errors, which we have discussed very thoroughly on this forum It has been frequently suggested that we forgive Mitt Romney for these mistakes and support him because he is an LDS priesthood holder, a returned missionary, a former bishop and stake president, and a successful businessman. It has also been suggested that those who feel they cannot support and would not trust Romney as a candidate for US President because of these errors are hateful and unforgiving.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

The point for me is that Mitt just isn't the guy I want in power. He's better than most IMO but I think there's better options than him. It isn't a matter of me forgiving or not. I just don't agree with him.
It's like when President Monson said some divorces are justified. It doesn't always matter if the spouse repents later or not, what have you done for me lately comes into play. I wouldn't let my kids play at the same house where a child molester lives, even if he eventually repents. I'm saving him from having to repent more by not allowing my child to be a victim. In a similar way it could be said that by not supporting Mitt I'm trying to keep him from making some big mistakes that he would have to repent of. I'm such a swell guy

Well said, I feel the same.

I think Mitt is a sharp guy, but is just lacking in some areas that I consider deal breakers for my vote. I have no hatred for the man, but I have strong feelings that I will fight against him holding higher office - partly for his sake, and partly for the sake of his supporters (so they don't have to repent of supporting him.)

[JasonI am a nobody!]

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Or works of repentance? Are we judged according to our works of repentance Jason? How about "our" works of forgiving others, will we be judged according to those works?

Jason, it all boils down to our works of repentance, and Lundbeck, our works of forgiveness! Eventually everybody will repent, and obviously everybody, "but" Mitt Romney haters will forgive!

And who has the greater sin?


Bob

Aren't works of repentance - righteousness???

Don't hate Mitt Romney.....hate his works....or lack there of. Big difference!

I don't believe everyone will repent. Cain, Laman, Lemuel, Judas, etc etc etc. Like poles of a magnet.....some are attracted (via their hearts) to one side over the other.....with many happy in the middle. Hence the need for "many mansions in My house"!

David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/ ... ang=eng#38

And when the time cometh that evil fruit shall again come into my vineyard, then will I cause the good and the bad to be gathered; and the good will I preserve unto myself, and the bad will I cast away into its own place.

http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/jacob/5?lang=eng

Refers to Davids penalty for the sins he committed. He lost his wives and other blessings! Can he start again with a new family? Yes! That's exactly what the Parable of Prodigal Son is all about, the wayward son deciding in his mind, coming to himself, understanding his wasteful living habits and what he had lost. But what did the Father do, saw his son at a distance, run, not waited, RUN to welcome his once wayward son back into the family, put the royal family ring back on his fingers and covered him with the royal family robes. And the wayward son "started again!" Not to regain what he had lost, like David also had, but to gain anew, a new life with his old family!

And "then" who sinned, the good brother! Complained to the Father, you never killed the fatted calf for me!!! What gives??

Elder Packer says there is "no" sin that cannot be forgiven, President Kimball says "all" will return. Are you struggling with "NO" and "ALL" Jason? Want to know why people have so much trouble with repenting?? Well, I'm gonna tell you anyway, people have trouble with repenting because they've not yet learned how to forgive!

And also, concerning the wicked souls you condemned above, go back and read the promises to parents of wayward children I mentioned above, I'll mark them for you! You obviously read past them, if you read them at all! They were all sons of penitent parents.

All to often we suffer from OBPSS, Older Brother of the Prodigal Son Syndrome, can't find it within ourselves to forgive!

Bob

[SempiternalHarbingercaptain of 1,000]

.............

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

Ok Bob.I finally see what you are doing. I have finally caught on to what you are up to. You find a few quotes that back up your line of thinking while you discard everything else. Pretty smooth. Not smart, but smooth.

Actually it's most others that fail to reconcile the quotes Bob used and comprehend the Gospel. Bob has it figured out! (except the Mitt thing )

[JasonI am a nobody!]

Or works of repentance? Are we judged according to our works of repentance Jason? How about "our" works of forgiving others, will we be judged according to those works?

Jason, it all boils down to our works of repentance, and Lundbeck, our works of forgiveness! Eventually everybody will repent, and obviously everybody, "but" Mitt Romney haters will forgive!

And who has the greater sin?


Bob

Aren't works of repentance - righteousness???

Don't hate Mitt Romney.....hate his works....or lack there of. Big difference!

I don't believe everyone will repent. Cain, Laman, Lemuel, Judas, etc etc etc. Like poles of a magnet.....some are attracted (via their hearts) to one side over the other.....with many happy in the middle. Hence the need for "many mansions in My house"!

David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/ ... ang=eng#38

And when the time cometh that evil fruit shall again come into my vineyard, then will I cause the good and the bad to be gathered; and the good will I preserve unto myself, and the bad will I cast away into its own place.

http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/jacob/5?lang=eng

Refers to Davids penalty for the sins he committed. He lost his wives and other blessings! Can he start again with a new family? Yes! That's exactly what the Parable of Prodigal Son is all about, the wayward son deciding in his mind, coming to himself, understanding his wasteful living habits and what he had lost. But what did the Father do, saw his son at a distance, run, not waited, RUN to welcome his once wayward son back into the family, put the royal family ring back on his fingers and covered him with the royal family robes. And the wayward son "started again!" Not to regain what he had lost, like David also had, but to gain anew, a new life with his old family!

And "then" who sinned, the good brother! Complained to the Father, you never killed the fatted calf for me!!! What gives??

Elder Packer says there is "no" sin that cannot be forgiven, President Kimball says "all" will return. Are you struggling with "NO" and "ALL" Jason? Want to know why people have so much trouble with repenting?? Well, I'm gonna tell you anyway, people have trouble with repenting because they've not yet learned how to forgive!

And also, concerning the wicked souls you condemned above, go back and read the promises to parents of wayward children I mentioned above, I'll mark them for you! You obviously read past them, if you read them at all! They were all sons of penitent parents.

All to often we suffer from OBPSS, Older Brother of the Prodigal Son Syndrome, can't find it within ourselves to forgive!

Bob

Don't buy your interpretation of the Lord's comments regarding David.

Great parable and glad you brought that up.....did the father ever tell the prodigal son that he had all that the diligent and obedient son had? Had a dinner and put a robe on him but there was never this promise -

And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

http://lds.org/scriptures/nt/luke/15?lang=eng

I've thought a lot about your comments over the past year or so since we discussed it in detail. And while there rings a degree of truth to your words....I simply don't buy into the whole. Sons of perdition are just that....sons of perdition. Its dictated by their hearts. Denial of the truth as proclaimed to them by the Holy Ghost. Why would there be a need for Outer Darkness.....or many mansions if everyone ascends to the same plateau? And just because someone repents - doesn't mean there isn't a consequence as depicted in David's account. Justice will have equal weight with Mercy. While Elder Packer says that there is no sin that can't be forgiven....he doesn't say that there won't be a consequence nor does he claim that all intelligences will choose to repent. President Kimball's statement may also be taken out of context.....as in all return to what? the Celestial Kingdom? ....or other mansions? or no mansion and off to some darker outer place? or simply return to the judgment bar? Instead you appear to say that all intelligences are equal or that they will become equal. The fact that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ does not mean that they will all choose to repent. The demons of hell recognized Christ and their response was - what hast thou to do with us......not please forgive us for choosing to go with the other guy.....despite their recognition of Christ and His position of authority in the Plan of Salvation as well as heir to the Father.

And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.

And then shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of God.

But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup.

http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/40.13?lang=eng#12

I say unto thee, my son, that the plan of restoration is requisite with the justice of God; for it is requisite that all things should be restored to their proper order. Behold, it is requisite and just, according to the power and resurrection of Christ, that the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every apart of the body should be restored to itself.

And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.

And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—

The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.

These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or do evil.

Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.

......

Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.

And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?

O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again.

For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all.

http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/41?lang=eng

And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

....

And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.

That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by claw, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.

All kingdoms have a law given;

And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/ ... ang=eng#21

But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

.......

That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

......

Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and asuffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/ ... ang=eng#77

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

http://lds.org/scriptures/ot/isa/14.12?lang=eng#11

...all about the heart and what it truly desires!

And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/12?lang=eng

....and either going in one direction or the other as dictated by the true desires of the heart!

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Ok Bob.I finally see what you are doing. I have finally caught on to what you are up to. You find a few quotes that back up your line of thinking while you discard everything else. Pretty smooth. Not smart, but smooth.

I will be more than happy to answer every question you have concerning repentance, forgiveness and salvation, one question at a time! You can ask the questions here, PM me or email me. In the twelve + years my Salvation narrative has been on the internet I have answered thousands of questions concerning those same subjects. But what I will not do is allow myself to be flooded by a thousand different questions from the same person, I answer his first question and ignore the rest, as you've seen me do here.

You have a scripture or a quote that seems to contradict what I'm saying, send it to me, I'll answer it! ONE AT A TIME! I reconcile the scriptures, I don't discard those that seem to contradict! In fact I love finding prophetic statements, quotes, scriptures that seems to contradict, because I know I'm going to learn something new after I reconcile them, and I love learning!

Lay it on me, ONE at a time, I double dog dare ya!

Bob

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Don't buy your interpretation of the Lord's comments regarding David.

Great parable and glad you brought that up.....did the father ever tell the prodigal son that he had all that the diligent and obedient son had? Had a dinner and put a robe on him but there was never this promise -

And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

http://lds.org/scriptures/nt/luke/15?lang=eng

Your suggesting some one is going to spoon feed the prodigal son for the rest of his life? While he cannot get back that which he wasted, he is certainly able to help increase his fathers land holdings, his fathers herds, his flocks, his gaggles! Doubling, tripling, quadrupling what he wasted. He is the son of righteous penitent parents, and cannot be lost. Pay the heavy penalty yes, but lost, NO!

Please study the quotes I so "carefully" marked in a prior post, they contain a lot of truths almost completely unknown to the average member! Even though those same quotes have been used many times in conference talks through the years.

Jason, I do not see you as an average member, I see you as a young searcher, with not quite the experience in gospel understanding you need or desire.

Bob

[5tev3captain of 100]

It blows my mind as to how this thread keeps going back to Romney and his spiritual status before the Lord. I don't know what his spiritual status is but I 100% do not trust the party that he is associated with. He supports many of their policies which are wicked and destructive to liberty. What does that say about him personally, I don't really care what he does with his private life. Whether he uses a tissue or not when he picks his nose, etc. I care about the policies he will support. The party or gang of thugs he associates with are evil and uphold evil and I feel pretty good about declaring that as a fact.

Outside of politics, yeah, maybe he's a swell guy and is fun to have around. Maybe he serves well in his calling and is truly honest with his bishop, etc. As a brother in the Gospel, great for him, I'm truly happy for him and would pray for his well-being. But I also pray that the party he's so chummy with will be wiped off the face of this earth along with it's twin brother and the beast that controls the both of them.

But watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhBtfiRKaVY

Let's face it people. The final thread, our franchise to vote, has snapped. The powers that be have officially destroyed the Constitution of the land, we are and have been for probably a while now, the United States of Jacobugath. Without the right to vote, we the people have been neutralized to serfs of our overlords. Democrats, Republicans and many other have no problem at all with our electronic voting system because they use it to control us by holding these mock elections so all of us can still feel like we have control over our government. It's brilliant and we play right along with everything. Because, really, it's impossible for corruption to happen with an electronic voting system that has zero oversight and no checks and balances. Absolute power corrupts? Nahhhhh...that's just crazy talk.

This whore that has digged a pit for us will soon fall into it's own handy work. When that happens, God help us all because it's going to get nuts.

[JasonI am a nobody!]

Don't buy your interpretation of the Lord's comments regarding David.

Great parable and glad you brought that up.....did the father ever tell the prodigal son that he had all that the diligent and obedient son had? Had a dinner and put a robe on him but there was never this promise -

And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

http://lds.org/scriptures/nt/luke/15?lang=eng

Your suggesting some one is going to spoon feed the prodigal son for the rest of his life? While he cannot get back that which he wasted, he is certainly able to help increase his fathers land holdings, his fathers herds, his flocks, his gaggles! Doubling, tripling, quadrupling what he wasted. He is the son of righteous penitent parents, and cannot be lost. Pay the heavy penalty yes, but lost, NO!

Please study the quotes I so "carefully" marked in a prior post, they contain a lot of truths almost completely unknown to the average member! Even though those same quotes have been used many times in conference talks through the years.

Jason, I do not see you as an average member, I see you as a young searcher, with not quite the experience in gospel understanding you need or desire.

Bob

Who said anything about spoon feeding? Or lost? There are many mansions....

Yeah had a man over twice my age in my high priest group basically tell me that tonight......but with respect to recognizing the value and truth in new age as promoted by Wayne Dyer & Marianne Williamson.

[JasonI am a nobody!]

It blows my mind as to how this thread keeps going back to Romney and his spiritual status before the Lord. I don't know what his spiritual status is but I 100% do not trust the party that he is associated with. He supports many of their policies which are wicked and destructive to liberty. What does that say about him personally, I don't really care what he does with his private life. Whether he uses a tissue or not when he picks his nose, etc. I care about the policies he will support. The party or gang of thugs he associates with are evil and uphold evil and I feel pretty good about declaring that as a fact.

Outside of politics, yeah, maybe he's a swell guy and is fun to have around. Maybe he serves well in his calling and is truly honest with his bishop, etc. As a brother in the Gospel, great for him, I'm truly happy for him and would pray for his well-being. But I also pray that the party he's so chummy with will be wiped off the face of this earth along with it's twin brother and the beast that controls the both of them.

But watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhBtfiRKaVY

Let's face it people. The final thread, our franchise to vote, has snapped. The powers that be have officially destroyed the Constitution of the land, we are and have been for probably a while now, the United States of Jacobugath. Without the right to vote, we the people have been neutralized to serfs of our overlords. Democrats, Republicans and many other have no problem at all with our electronic voting system because they use it to control us by holding these mock elections so all of us can still feel like we have control over our government. It's brilliant and we play right along with everything. Because, really, it's impossible for corruption to happen with an electronic voting system that has zero oversight and no checks and balances. Absolute power corrupts? Nahhhhh...that's just crazy talk.

This whore that has digged a pit for us will soon fall into it's own handy work. When that happens, God help us all because it's going to get nuts.

The thread hasn't snapped yet.....the franchise is the "right" to vote.....which everyone still has. Doesn't mean its counted or free from fraud or manipulation.....but you still have the right to go to the polls and cast your vote.

And locally we have a bit more pull than that.....as demonstrated with Bob Bennett. But if he had made it to the mainstream election he probably would have won with his $20 million war chest.....and pull.

Great video.....thank you for the link!

[5tev3captain of 100]

We have the right to go push a button on a box, but I wouldn't call that a "vote". So if it doesn't count, then would we still have a right to vote if the government came out and said, "You guys don't have to come out to the voting booths anymore, you can just think about who you'd like to elect and we'll just pick someone. We'll call that voting from now on, k?"

[JasonI am a nobody!]

We have the right to go push a button on a box, but I wouldn't call that a "vote". So if it doesn't count, then would we still have a right to vote if the government came out and said, "You guys don't have to come out to the voting booths anymore, you can just think about who you'd like to elect and we'll just pick someone. We'll call that voting from now on, k?"

I understand....but in terms of the thread....technically we still have a right to go down to the polling booth and cast a vote......for whatever it may be worth. But yes....we are very near the end and the plans for the implementation of martial law have been developed over decades. It will collapse though when that happens as we have been told that a king will never be established on this land by the BOM.....as well as President Benson stating that to his knowledge the remaining thread (franchise to vote) is never broken. But you are right....not much of a thread left.....and pretty much in local in effect only.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Who said anything about spoon feeding? Or lost? There are many mansions....

Yeah had a man over twice my age in my high priest group basically tell me that tonight......but with respect to recognizing the value and truth in new age as promoted by Wayne Dyer & Marianne Williamson.

The Prophet Brigham Young; "All kingdoms pass away except the "one"---- All the mansions are in that "one" kingdom! After paying the price the Prodigal Son received his "proper" inheritance in that "one" kingdom! What he didn't receive was "half" his fathers kingdom, in the gospel sense he received all that his father has---not had! As we all will--after we pay the price of our disobedience and then have repented, or have "properly" repented and are saved. Christ is the Savior of "ALL" mankind. Stated 378 times by Latter-day prophets, and all the scriptures! I believe their intent is to-- hammer it home-----!

Joseph Smith "Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else; and no being can possess it but himself or one like him.


Bob

[SempiternalHarbingercaptain of 1,000]

Ok Bob.I finally see what you are doing. I have finally caught on to what you are up to. You find a few quotes that back up your line of thinking while you discard everything else. Pretty smooth. Not smart, but smooth.

Actually it's most others that fail to reconcile the quotes Bob used and comprehend the Gospel. Bob has it figured out! (except the Mitt thing )

This has turned out to be quite an interesting thread. Including 15 different topics. Shadow, I am talking about his quotes that justify his vote for Mitt Romney. Bob might have might have it all figured out, but that’s not what I see. If he does have it all figured out than Mitt Romney is the exception. Bob is the one calling those who disagree with his views wolves in sheep’s clothing, condemning people for not forgiving Mitt Romney and Judas, he is the one name calling and placing judgment, questioning peoples desires and understanding. Now Bob is probably old enough to be my grandpa, and grandpas always know more than the grandchild. I want to respect my elders, so I am going to try and not say anything I wouldn’t say to my grandpa. If Bob does have it all figured out like you say than that is exactly his big problem. He has it so figured out that he has closed his mind to anything and everything that goes against his way of thinking. Let me just say this, when someone thinks they know everything your progression comes to a halt. You can't learn anything more. How can someone continue to learn when they have it all figured out? You don’t..

This is not the first time Bob has shown and a closed mind. A year or so ago before I was a registered member I was browsing through a thread on the Nephite civilization taking place in North America. I had never heard of that before. I had bought at least 5 books that firmly claimed the book of Mormon times took place in Central America. So that’s what I generally believed , but since I wasn't 100% sure I still had an open mind about it. Well like this thread Bob would just throw every bit of information that he didn’t agree with out the door. Wouldn’t listen or consider that he might be able to learn something. He was having No part of the other side of the argument. I cant find the thread but I remember him posting something like "the correct map" of the book of Mormon. Last I checked the church has not taken a stance on this and No prophet has come up with a correct map.. Everything is speculation, until the Lord reveals it. I am sure there is good reason why we don’t know. But at least I am open minded. No matter where the true location is I think its naive to think America has not been inhabited at one point. I don’t claim to know more than Bob does. But I least I take into consideration both points of view. I listen and take things into consideration. Bob has shown he is not to good at that. Mitt romney is one example. His mind is set and no matter how much Mitt turns his back on the Constitution or the Republican party he closes both eyes and ears. Here is the other side of the Nephite civilization taken place here in America. Example;

I Nephi 22:7

And it meaneth that the time cometh that after all the house of Israel have been scattered and confounded, that the Lord God will raise up a mighty nation among the Gentiles, yea, even upon the face of this land; and by them shall our seed be scattered.

Is Central America "Mighty Nations among the Gentiles"? Have we not been taught that America is the promised land. The whole face of the land was changed after the events of Christ's death. (before 3 Nephi 8.) (their words, not mine). Rev 21 describes the size of the city of New Jerusalem.

Ether 13:2
2For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who well upon the face thereof;
3And that it was the place of the New Jerusalem, which should come down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord.
4Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.
5And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord; wherefore, it could not be a new Jerusalem for it had been in a time of old; but it should be built up again, and become a holy city of the Lord; and it should be built unto the house of Israel—
6And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.

Than there is only one Book of Mormon site that we know the exact location of, Hill Cumorah in NY. Were the plates buried in central America and moved after the fact to another hill with the exact same name? Than their is the experience during the march of Zion’s camp were 8 men that were or became apostles, 3 of which went on to be prophets and presidents of the Church relate the story told by Joseph Smith about Zelph and Onendagus and that Joseph Smith referred to the area of the Zion's Camp march as "the plains of the Nephites" and that there were Nephites up there. In the mouth of two or three witnesses. There are more than three witnesses to this story. Than there is all the evidence that would have been able to support the book of Mormon but has been either suppressed or destroyed. Than is all the other evidence that is out there but Bob has it all figured out and wont even entrain it.

I don't know the answer. I don’t claim to. I wish I knew where Lehi landed. There is evidence that supports both sides. So I am interested in both sides. Bob wont even entertain the thought. Just like Mitt Romney. I personally don’t see why it is hare to believe that the whole continent could have been populated. But there is evidence that does suggest we do in fact live on the promise land, the same land of promise as Lehi of old. I have seldom heard central America referred to as the promise land. But at least I am open minded. Where with Bob, he has it all figured out. He has it all figured out about Mitt, he has it all figured out about the location of the promise land. And because he has it all figured out has closed his mind. It could be the only two issues I have with Bob. So I will not judge even though I feel that’s what he is doing to others. The next thread I come across with Bob I will listen with an open mind as I always do. Bob has brought some good stuff unrelated to Romney I do find very interesting. Some things I will think about.

[5tev3captain of 100]

WOW, this thread can go in any direction now! Now we've got the geography bomb going down!

But that said, I agree with SempiternalHarbinger about the geographic location of the Book of Mormon. I think it happened up here You know, the thousands of mounds built exactly in the way Moroni built his, this being the land of the New Jerusalem, the hill Cumorah is in North America in a land of many waters, just as described in the Book of Mormon, but that's just my opinion, I have an open mind on the subject. Sorry, don't mean to side track but that's another fun topic!

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Wrong again, I had an open mind until I discovered all the proofs, now that I know for sure, I indeed have a closed mind with that subject, I admit it! Meso America! The Church doesn't have to furnish me with a map, I have the evidences! I'm on to other things!

Joseph Smith didn't record the date of the first vision, but because of existing evidences I know it was on Sunday, the 26th of March, 1820.

Because of existing evidences I know Christ died on Friday April 1st 33 AD. (Gregorian)

I consider the evidences that exist, I don't make them up, suppositions as it were, and then accept those suppositions as truth and make up my story!

Existing evidences! That's where its at for me!

Bob

[5tev3captain of 100]

Bob, when it comes to certain things I think we're just going to have to all agree to disagree. On your dates and locations of the Book of Mormon you could be right. I mean nothing says "promised land of liberty" like Guatemala or Mexico! But seriously, let's not get into geography here, oh please! I've already ridden that merry-go-round one too many times and Bob, why did you have to go dropping the 1st vision and birth of Christ into this discussion? Haven't we gone far enough off topic?

Oh well, what the heck.

The moon landing was faked, 9/11 was an inside job, Roswell was a psy-op, the Sun is probably a terrestrial kingdom, Bigfoot is Cain, the three-Nephites have saved at least 235 sister missionaries, there will be dinosaurs in the Celestial Kingdom and Adam and Eve DID have belly buttons.

There, have at it. I think I'm pretty much done with this discussion guys. See you all on another topic! You're all good sports, thanks for a lively discussion!

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Right, my vote doesn't count, I'm wasting my time working for Mitt, I have hope a priesthood holder can fix thing, I don't care about the ldgs!

I'm prepared!

Bob

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

Instead of picking and choosing the scriptures you wish to believe or reject, try reconciling the scriptures, study the seemingly contradicting scriptures until you see how they agree. The scripture does not contradict itself, any contradiction you perceive is only in your head!

Okay, then chew on these for a while, and after you get them figured out, "enlighten us heathens."

Has God Always Existed, Unchangeable from all Eternity?
BOOK OF MORMON: YES
“For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.”—Moroni 8:18

PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH: NO
“...the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity...”—Mosiah 3:5
“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea,...he was once a man like us....”—Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-346

Does God Dwell in the Heart of the Righteous?
BOOK OF MORMON: YES
“…because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell….”—Alma 34:36

DOCTRINE & COVENANTS: NO
“…the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.” —Doctrine and Covenants 130:3

Is God the Father a Personage of “Spirit” or an Exalted “Man”?
LECTURES OF FAITH and BOOK OF MORMON = “SPIRIT”
“...The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness…” — Doctrine and Covenants, 1935 edition, Lectures Fifth of Faith, Section V, p. 52-53 (Note: In 1921, The Lectures of Faith section was removed from Doctrine and Covenants.)
“Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God...that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever.”—Alma 31:15, Book of Mormon1

DOCTRINE & COVENANTS and JOSEPH SMITH, JR. = “MAN”
“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.” —Doctrine & Covenants 130:22
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens... I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form--like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man.” —Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345

Are There Two or Three Personages Governing the Universe?
LECTURES OF FAITH = TWO
“We shall, in this lecture speak of the Godhead: we mean the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things….They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit... The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, is a personage of tabernacle…And he being the only begotten of the Father...received a fulness of the glory of the Father—possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit.” —Doctrine and Covenants, 1935 edition, Lectures Fifth of Faith,Section V, p. 52-53 (Note: In 1921, This Lectures of Faith section was removed from Doctrine and Covenants.)

JOSEPH SMITH, JR = THREE
“I will preach on the plurality of Gods...I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.” —Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,p. 370

Does God Forgive Us for Murder?
BOOK OF MORMON: YES
“…And I shall also thank my God, yea, my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those our many sins and murders which we have commited, and taken away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of his Son.”—Alma 24:10

DOCTRINE & COVENANTS: NO
“…And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall kill they shall be delivered up and dealt with acccording to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land.” —Doctrine and Covenants 42:79

Do Babies Who Die Grow in the Spirit World?
PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH: NO
“But as the child dies, so shall it rise from the dead....It will never grow: it will still be the child, in the same precise form as it appeared before it died out of its mother's arms....Eternity is full of thrones, upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory, will not one cubit added to their stature.”—Joseph Smith, 1844, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 10

JOSEPH F SMITH: YES
“All spirits are in adult form. They were adults before their mortal existence, and they are in adult form after death, even if they die as infants or children(See Joseph F Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 455).”—Gospel Principles, 1992, p 290

More stuff to chew on:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16472

[JasonI am a nobody!]

Instead of picking and choosing the scriptures you wish to believe or reject, try reconciling the scriptures, study the seemingly contradicting scriptures until you see how they agree. The scripture does not contradict itself, any contradiction you perceive is only in your head!

Okay, then chew on these for a while, and after you get them figured out, "enlighten us heathens."

Has God Always Existed, Unchangeable from all Eternity?
BOOK OF MORMON: YES
“For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.”—Moroni 8:18

PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH: NO
“...the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity...”—Mosiah 3:5
“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea,...he was once a man like us....”—Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-346

Does God Dwell in the Heart of the Righteous?
BOOK OF MORMON: YES
“…because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell….”—Alma 34:36

DOCTRINE & COVENANTS: NO
“…the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.” —Doctrine and Covenants 130:3

Is God the Father a Personage of “Spirit” or an Exalted “Man”?
LECTURES OF FAITH and BOOK OF MORMON = “SPIRIT”
“...The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness…” — Doctrine and Covenants, 1935 edition, Lectures Fifth of Faith, Section V, p. 52-53 (Note: In 1921, The Lectures of Faith section was removed from Doctrine and Covenants.)
“Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God...that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever.”—Alma 31:15, Book of Mormon1

DOCTRINE & COVENANTS and JOSEPH SMITH, JR. = “MAN”
“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.” —Doctrine & Covenants 130:22
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens... I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form--like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man.” —Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345

Are There Two or Three Personages Governing the Universe?
LECTURES OF FAITH = TWO
“We shall, in this lecture speak of the Godhead: we mean the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things….They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit... The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, is a personage of tabernacle…And he being the only begotten of the Father...received a fulness of the glory of the Father—possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit.” —Doctrine and Covenants, 1935 edition, Lectures Fifth of Faith,Section V, p. 52-53 (Note: In 1921, This Lectures of Faith section was removed from Doctrine and Covenants.)

JOSEPH SMITH, JR = THREE
“I will preach on the plurality of Gods...I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.” —Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,p. 370

Does God Forgive Us for Murder?
BOOK OF MORMON: YES
“…And I shall also thank my God, yea, my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those our many sins and murders which we have commited, and taken away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of his Son.”—Alma 24:10

DOCTRINE & COVENANTS: NO
“…And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall kill they shall be delivered up and dealt with acccording to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land.” —Doctrine and Covenants 42:79

Do Babies Who Die Grow in the Spirit World?
PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH: NO
“But as the child dies, so shall it rise from the dead....It will never grow: it will still be the child, in the same precise form as it appeared before it died out of its mother's arms....Eternity is full of thrones, upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory, will not one cubit added to their stature.”—Joseph Smith, 1844, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 10

JOSEPH F SMITH: YES
“All spirits are in adult form. They were adults before their mortal existence, and they are in adult form after death, even if they die as infants or children(See Joseph F Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 455).”—Gospel Principles, 1992, p 290

More stuff to chew on:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16472

fyi - that was Bob....not I

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Jason, all these arguments are from an anti-Mormon site, attempting to show contradictions in the teachings of the True Church. I won't bother answering them, and I'd be honestly surprised if you are unable to answer them. I'm also surprised you'd put this trash on this site!

I think even O.I. could answer these supposed objections. Mark or Gary, Mercy?

Bob

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

I think even O.I. could answer these supposed objections. Mark and Gary????

Bob

Indeed I could easily reconcile all those scriptures.

But Bob, it wasn't Jason that posted them.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

My error, sorry Jason! That FF put them on this site makes much more sense!


Bob

[JasonI am a nobody!]

My error, sorry Jason! That FF put them on this site makes much more sense!


Bob

LOL....no worries!

[SempiternalHarbingercaptain of 1,000]

Bob, when it comes to certain things I think we're just going to have to all agree to disagree. On your dates and locations of the Book of Mormon you could be right. I mean nothing says "promised land of liberty" like Guatemala or Mexico! But seriously, let's not get into geography here, oh please! I've already ridden that merry-go-round one too many times and Bob, why did you have to go dropping the 1st vision and birth of Christ into this discussion? Haven't we gone far enough off topic?

Oh well, what the heck.

The moon landing was faked, 9/11 was an inside job, Roswell was a psy-op, the Sun is probably a terrestrial kingdom, Bigfoot is Cain, the three-Nephites have saved at least 235 sister missionaries, there will be dinosaurs in the Celestial Kingdom and Adam and Eve DID have belly buttons.

There, have at it. I think I'm pretty much done with this discussion guys. See you all on another topic! You're all good sports, thanks for a lively discussion!

That was to funny. Whats left to talk about?? Oh, how bout our US Army scientists, Russian scientists, and the CIA cooked up HIV in a lab, or how our world is really being run by an alien race of shape-shifting lizard-people called reptilians. OK not really. Maybe Jason can post a couple vidoes that are so even more off topic and than you could lock this thread for good. It is really to bad this thread was high-jacked. (I didn't help) But did Bob not prove my point that he has a closed mind our what? Steve, This an important topic you brought up. I really liked your thoughts on the Independent American party. I am personally going to look into it more. Especially now I don't have a home anymore since I left the Ron Paul camp. But from what I have learned so far, it sounds really good to me. Hopefully, eventually this thread will get back on topic or you should start a new one.

[JasonI am a nobody!]

LOL....haven't addressed the Palmoni Scrolls yet in this thread!

http://scripturalsecrets.blogspot.com/