Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!

[Obiwan]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think propaganda disseminated about needing animal products or supplements for good health is a disservice. I say let people study both sides of the issue for themselves if they so desire, and then make choices that they feel inspired to make for what they feel will be best for the health and wellness of themselves and their families.

The problem is the scriptures directly "forbid" you actions....

D&C 49 directly states not to abstain, for it's not of God, and D&C 89 directly states to eat meat "sparingly".

Thus, you are replacing the Word of God with the Doctrines of Men.... YOUR doctrines, and the propaganda by those with evil designs that you are willingly embracing. Not to mention, the Prophets have directly spoke on this issue several times. We are not to abstain from meat, but to eat it sparringly, and THEN what that means is up to us. It's like with Tithing... We are to pay an honest tithe according to 10% of our increase. What that actually means is between us and God. But, we don't have the right to say that doesn't mean we DON'T pay tithing. The command is clear, you pay 10%, you eat meat sparingly.... period.

I strongly recommend you look into this further on the other side, rather than the Vegan side, because you are directly and intentionally going against Gods Word. And that should be a warning sign to you.

[dconrad000]

Obiwan, I am quite certain that Daniel of old would disagree with those statements as do I.

...and BTW, the scripture to which you refer is not a good one to use to make your case. The actual scripture, as given directly from God to Joseph Smith, with no editing necessary -- plainly says just the opposite. He that forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God...and the same applies to him that forbiddeth others to abstain from eating meats.

D&C 49

15 And again, verily I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man.

18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

That is also the exact opposite of what the scripture in Timothy says. When I find conflicts between biblical scripture and JSTranslations, and D&C, it is helpful to remember the vision that Nephi was given concerning the corruption of the bible that was prophesied to occur (see 1 Neph 13:21-29).

Clearly from that scripture (D&C 49:18), one who would forbid Daniel -- or me -- from abstaining from meats if we so choose would be out of order...and I choose to abstain no more and no less than what the Lord in His own words to Joseph Smith in JST 9:11, D&C 49:21 and verse 15 of section 89 advocates.

You are the one forbidding others. On the other hand, I say let people eat what-ever they feel is best. To each their own. Live and let live.


.

[Obiwan]

Again.... If verse 18 was saying what you believe it says by especially comparing it to verse 15, then the statement "that man should not eat the same" would not be in the sentence.

Further, the DIRECT Command from God on this issue is "sparringly". Thus, your trying to twist things otherwise misses the point. HE directly said what to do with Meat, and it's sparringly. I know you are well invested in all this.... but you are seriously wrong.

[dconrad000]

"I'm" not forbidding anyone.... GOD IS.

You clearly have been forbidding me to abstain (that one should not eat the same) from eating meat...and now you are saying we are commanded by God to kill, shed blood, and eat meat, irrespective of whether we are in a time of need -- of hunger or famine, or not.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. You eat what you think is best, when you think it best -- and I will do the same.

[Obiwan]

Fine, believe and do what you want. I'm just telling you, and so will 99.9% of all other LDS that what you are doing is not of God, that you are twisting his commands. We are commanded. He said to eat is sparringly. That is clear and unequivacal. You want to change meanings of that scripture, fine, but you can't change the other one, thus you are being disobedient.

It's the same thing that some people mistakingly believe that we are to only eat meat in times of famine etc. That is a wrong interpretation. They are ignoring the proper old english, just like you are ignoring the old english to change the meaning of the text, as if it supports your views. Understand, I can SEE EXACTLY "how" you make that interpretation. But, you're not understanding it fully. And by not understanding it fully, you are making a completely false and more seriously an "opposite" judgment of what the statement says. Don't you think you should be "safe" then "sorry"....?

After all, the entire point of this thread shows some of the consequences of following YOUR ideology.
I've never seen any infants die because their mother eat meat products.... Have you???
This proves your ideology false, and more importantly, that your willingly and intentionally placing your family, children, and future generations at risk, when you have been shown otherwise.

Further, I won't disagree that in the Garden Adam and Eve eat of the fruit, and did not eat meat. Further, I would say/agree that likely even during the Millenium we will not be eating meat. However, in both of those cases, GOD IS AMONG US... Our "natures" are changed do to the Light of Christ/God. Not because all man became Vegans and then Christ comes.... Further, we currently are not in that Utopia state, we are fallen beings. As fallen beings, we "require" meat. You really haven't thought this through as much as you think.

[loquaciousmomma]

D&C 49, in the heading says :

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to Sidney Rigdon, Parley P. Pratt, and Leman Copley, at Kirtland, Ohio, March 1831 (see History of the Church, 1:167–69). (Some historical sources give the date of this revelation as May 1831.) Leman Copley had embraced the gospel but still held to some of the teachings of the Shakers (United Society of Believers in Christ’s Second Appearing), to which he had formerly belonged. Some of the beliefs of the Shakers were that Christ’s second coming had already occurred and that he had appeared in the form of a woman, Ann Lee; baptism by water was not considered essential; the eating of pork was specifically forbidden, and many did not eat any meat; and a celibate life was considered higher than marriage. In prefacing this revelation, the Prophet wrote, “In order to have [a] more perfect understanding on the subject, I inquired of the Lord, and received the following” (History of the Church, 1:167). The revelation refuted some of the basic concepts of the Shaker group. The aforementioned brethren took a copy of the revelation to the Shaker community (near Cleveland, Ohio) and read it to them in its entirety, but it was rejected.

1–7, The day and hour of Christ’s coming will remain unknown until he comes; 8–14, Men must repent, believe the gospel, and obey the ordinances to gain salvation; 15–16, Marriage is ordained of God; 17–21, The eating of meat is approved; 22–28, Zion will flourish and the Lamanites blossom as the rose before the Second Coming.

It is a scripture reference that is argued over quite a bit, but the above shows the true intention of that verse.

[dconrad000]

Further, I won't disagree that in the Garden Adam and Eve eat of the fruit, and did not eat meat. Further, I would say/agree that likely even during the Millenium we will not be eating meat. However, in both of those cases, GOD IS AMONG US... Our "natures" are changed do to the Light of Christ/God. Not because all man became Vegans and then Christ comes.... Further, we currently are not in that Utopia state, we are fallen beings. As fallen beings, we "require" meat. You really haven't thought this through as much as you think.

Obiwan, you strike me as someone who is young and brash...so you might not yet be in a position to do this...nevertheless...it has been my observation that the light of Christ is strong in my young children...which is true I would say for the vast majority of all young children and there is much that we can learn from them. Go ask your four-year-old daughter if it would be all right with her for you to kill and serve up for dinner, the family pet bunny, lamb, pig, cow, fish, or snail -- or even a wild deer from the woods.

I'm quite certain that I know what her answer will be, and I agree with her sentiment.

Even you, I am sure would know better than to take a group of four-year-olds on a tour of your local slaughter house...because even you would not want to subject their tender, loving, sensitive spirits to the blood and horrors there.

Listen to your four-year-old, Obiwan. The light of Christ is strong in her.

There is a reason for the fact which even you acknowledge -- that such things would seem unseemly, in spheres higher than the telestial. When Christ said, "Be ye perfect even as I am, or as your Father in Heaven is"...he did not add, that you must wait on being kind to his animal creations, however -- until you have moved on to a higher sphere.

[Obiwan]

Actually, I had forgotten to mention the fact of the historical context of the revelation, as also somewhat recorded in the above Introduction.

This revelation was to the "Shakers".... The Shakers at the time did not believe in eating Pork, and many of them had even taken up Vegetarianism. Thus, the revelation was specifically addressing the fact that know-one should be forbidding the eating of meat, and that those who do are not of God.

Thus, the historical context further makes clear that the revelation wasn't about people being critical of those who eat meat, that said people shouldn't be critical, it was a revelation stating that the eating of meat is "good" to God, and those who believe abstaining is "God's Will" IS NOT in fact believing in God's Will.

[Obiwan]

Further, I won't disagree that in the Garden Adam and Eve eat of the fruit, and did not eat meat. Further, I would say/agree that likely even during the Millenium we will not be eating meat. However, in both of those cases, GOD IS AMONG US... Our "natures" are changed do to the Light of Christ/God. Not because all man became Vegans and then Christ comes.... Further, we currently are not in that Utopia state, we are fallen beings. As fallen beings, we "require" meat. You really haven't thought this through as much as you think.

Obiwan, you strike me as someone who is young and brash...so you might not yet be in a position to do this...nevertheless...it has been my observation that the light of Christ is strong in my young children...which is true I would say for the vast majority of all young children and there is much that we can learn from them. Go ask your four-year-old daughter if it would be all right with her for you to kill and serve up for dinner, the family pet bunny, lamb, pig, cow, fish, or snail -- or even a wild deer from the woods.

I'm quite certain that I know what her answer will be, and I agree with her sentiment.

Even you, I am sure would know better than to take a group of four-year-olds on a tour of your local slaughter house...because even you would not want to subject their tender, loving, sensitive spirits to the blood and horrors there.

Listen to your four-year-old, Obiwan. The light of Christ is strong in her.

There is a reason for the fact which even you acknowledge -- that such things would seem unseemly, in spheres higher than the telestial. When Christ said, "Be ye perfect even as I am, or as your Father in Heaven is"...he did not add, that you must wait on being kind to his animal creations, however -- until you have moved on to a higher sphere.

Please.... You don't know me at all to make such judgments. I give you scripture, and you give me liberal feel good good intentions but lacking of reason, and attack me with personal judgments. Very disappointing.

You clearly don't comprehend the difference from being "kind" to our Fathers creations and using them for food "kindly" and "respectfully". The scriptures clearly and unequivically teach as well as in other scriptures, not just the ones we are talking about that "animals" are FOR OUR USE. You want to pervert and ignore 1,000 of years of Revelation from God to man, then all the power to you. But, don't go around saying your views are Scriptural or "true" Mormonism, because they aren't.

Eating "Meat" has NEVER been a prohibition. Even your Garden of Eden beliefs are "inferances" not actual scripture direction.
Further, you still ignore the fact that we aren't "there yet". We aren't living in the Garden of Eden are we? Remember, the Garden was an ACTUAL PLACE, not simply some fantasy due to their disobedience. Likewise, the "possibility" that we may not be eating meat in the Millenium doesn't mean we get to the Millenium by not eating meat.

You are taking this way to far, and are directly going against God, and yet you scoff. The evidences are clear, vast, and absolute that we are to STILL eat meat. Even when there "was" a meat ban by God it was for eating Pork, which knowing history we now know was likely due to a parasite that existed previously in pork, thus the ban. Today, the command is "sparingly".... And what that means TO YOU with God, that is THEN your judgment. Anything BEYOND that, and you are condending against the Lord.

You really have some serious reflection and repenting to do, I'm sorry to say.

Also, I'm well aware of my children's tender hearts and spirits.... But what you describe is "conditioning", nothing more. Your children haven't been around and been trained to both LOVE and USE respectfully animals. Thus, because of that lack of exposure you then wonder why they might find it "gross" or "sad" being exposed to death? Take your child to a Fruneral.... if they have tender hearts, bet you anything they will feel the same.

You shouldn't confuse your lack of conditioning and ignorance of experience and learning with that of your children as being the same as that somehow makes the usage of animals for food as being "evil" or "wrong". Likewise simply because boys naturally love "guns" that doesn't somehow mean that they love "killing" people. Not all "judgments" of a "child" are actually "of God" and "of truth"..... Such judgment itself is childish and ignorant. As much as they might teach us things sometimes, you unfortunately are reading your OWN ideology and their lack of education and experience into their spirituality and spiritual impressions.

Anyway, I've said all I can at the moment, so I'm done. I've given you the scriptures, the facts, etc. and you choose willingly to ignore the Word of God. Thus, in your arrogance and elitism, you go against God himself. I say it again.... If we were supposed to be "vegans", God would have said it. And further, if we we supposed to be so.... Infants wouldn't DIE from Vegan parents.... Does the truth even matter to you???

[dconrad000]

Actually meat has been ordained by God to be used in times of need...and I'll save my family by the use of such, if such time were to ever arise.

If you want to kill and shed blood and eat meat, even when you are not in times of famine or excess of hunger, that is your prerogative. Go, and peace unto you.

As for myself, I have long ago, lost all desire to kill and shed blood and eat God's innocent animal creations, and unless I find myself in a time of famine or excess of hunger, I will not...and why should I?...and my wife and children feel the same. Our family has an abundance of delicious, nutritious plant-based foods. We have been blessed with marvelous, exceptionally good health. We have everything we need...and we also have total faith and confidence that we will be protected from the coming plagues, according to the last sentence in Section 89. That is where our faith lies. You must live according to where your faith lies.

[Obiwan]

Actually meat has been ordained by God to be used in times of need...and I'll save my family by the use of such, if such time were to ever arise.

That's NOT what the scripture and Prophetic pronouncements state, you are perverting the Word to fit your ideology.
As I said above, verse 13 states that it's okay to eat meat at other times because of the "not", and verse 15 which doesn't have a "not" is talking about "wild creatures" that we are to ONLY eat in times of need.

If you want to kill and shed blood and eat meat, even when you are not in times of famine or excess of hunger, that is your prerogative. Go, and peace unto you.

Is it really necessary to pervert things and words into the most negative in order to justify your ideology?
It's not about "wanting" to kill, shed blood or any other moronic perversion you create in your head, it's simply the cycle of life, that meat is ALSO for our use and benefit.

As for myself, I have long ago, lost all desire to kill and shed blood and eat God's innocent animal creations, and unless I find myself in a time of famine or excess of hunger, I will not...and why should I?...and my wife and children feel the same. Our family has an abundance of delicious, nutritious plant-based foods. We have been blessed with marvelous, exceptionally good health. We have everything we need...and we also have total faith and confidence that we will be protected from the coming plagues, according to the last sentence in Section 89. That is where our faith lies. You must live according to where your faith lies.

Actually your Faith lies in the religion of veganism, not what the scriptures actually teach. I've made that clear in so many ways, and would recommend you reread what I've wrote to understand. We haven't even talked about the Bible. The Bible is FULL of statements about animals being for our use. Remember, we are the Restoration.... We aren't a New Age religion that you are embracing and believing in.

I really can't understand how you can be so invested in an ideology that is completely against God's Word both ancient AND modern, as well as the Modern LIVING Prophets? Are you really so willing to have a child, and that child dies because of your veganism? I mean really, all this is common sense. You are placing your ideology ABOVE the lives of your children or future children. That's not of God, sorry to say. You are being decieved by a false spirit....

[dconrad000]

Actually, no conditioning is necessary. All of my young children have had a natural affection and love for all living creatures from the beginning. They were repulsed by the thought of harming any creature. It has been my observation that the vast majority of young children are so...without any conditioning...in fact it is not until they are hardened or conditioned against those feelings, that they can gradually become "all right" with harming or killing animals. That was also my experience growing up on the ranch in Alberta -- as I grew up killing and eating various animal creatures. I gradually became hardened against it. Although I no longer harm innocent animals, I do retain my skills as a crack shot...and will use those skills against any evil human beings, that might desire to cause harm or violence to my family.

[Obiwan]

You seem to be missing "details" when I'm explaining things, thus not addressing and completely missing important points.

My point was that humans beings have a "natural" aversion to "extreme" things that they haven't been exposed or trained to be familiar with. I gave you several examples of this. Death itself, not simply "killing" is one such extreme. Yet you wouldn't call "death" and "evil" that must be avoided and not dealt with, exposed to etc., even though children and other humans can be very much so effected by it. You are thus attributing a normal "human" experience into your own personal moral philosophy, as if one means and relates to the other.

I'm well aware of the experience you are describing. I know it also in relation to music. I never allowed any sort of "bad" music in my home, even on TV. Channel would be turned. Bad music are things like Rap, Punk, Heavy Metal, etc. They have grown/growing knowing a better spirit, and so when they are exposed to Metallica, Rap, or something they have their own aversion. It's the train up a child in the way he should go and he should not depart from it idea. Likewise, you don't realize apparently how your own conditioning on your children has effected them. Your ideology and training is what is "natural" to them. A child raised as an Eskimo for example would never have any sort of "aversion" to death, because it's part of their daily life from the moment they are born.

Frankly, your ideological extreme to be intellectually consistent you should be a pacifist then? Would you go to war in order to combat evil? The Church support such a position, even such as in WWII in which when members killed members. Likewise, the Church also supports the eating or meat, interpreting the scriptures completely opposite from you. Thus, are you a member of the Church or not?

Also, you still haven't answered the biggest question. Do you think it's right to kill and harm your child simply because you believe in the Vegan lifestyle? Such after all would often be the result according to your lifestyle, if you actually live it and aren't hypocritical, such as taking supplements etc., which is cheating and breaking the Vegan rules.

Ultimately, no matter how you "rationalize" your actions, your actions will create harm for your family.
Science claims all kinds of "benefits" for Alcohol, Coffee, etc. Yet, that doesn't change the harmful effects. Likewise, while not the same extreme, there ARE in fact harmful effects of being a Vegan. Bottom line, is you are not ingesting important nutrients. Do you not realize that you are like those parents who will not immunize your children under any circumstances? Actually you are worse, because there are scriptures directly against what you are doing.

Nothing wrong with your lifestyle in a "general" sense.... But every person should partake of some sort of meat at least once a week, to be FULLY healthy. What your doing is good for your family, but to the extreme you are taking it is NOT good. The proof is there, as well as the scriptures. You intentionally go against both, and that's not wise, that's brainwashed and deceived. Don't you also understand that there is a "reason" meat is eaten during famine etc.? It's because meat is able to provide essential "survival" nutrients. Technically according to your lifestyle, even in hunger there would be no reason to eat meat, you could just eat wild vegetation. See, in famine etc. the body goes through "extremes" of physical usage, starvation, etc. This is the same reason top athletes MUST also eat meat. Meat and only meat provides essential and important body building and preservation characteristics.

Anyway, you just don't know what you are doing. You've taken a little more info and then gone off the deep end with all due respect.... You can't just say live and let live.... Either you're following the Gospel or you are not. If you are intentionally disobeying commands, which you absolutely are, then there is a problem. As your brother it's my obligation to warn you. I mean the OP should be a wakeup call for you.... An infant died because the parents were Vegan. That's a serious problem you need to think about. One can be extremely healthy doing what you're doing, but eating just a little meat once in awhile. We aren't saying you have to be a total carnivor. Stick witht he healthy stuff, eggs, fish, milk, etc., once a week for the meats if you aren't much physically active. If you are very physically active, then twice a weak some meat product, fish, eggs, etc.

Fitness, Health, Naturalism, and Doctrines of the Church are my "specialties". You need to listen. The prophets have spoke also on this. You need to listen to them also. Did you do so this weekend?

[dconrad000]

I disagree with your entire view.

[Obiwan]

Here's some Bible verses, a challenge, and a link....

The Holy Bible is quite plain when it comes to the answer as to whether to eat meat or vegetables in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Gen 1:29-30
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Read and understand that God's Word was, is and has always been consistent on the point of whether to eat meat or vegetables. The scriptures has always stated that fruit and vegetables and meat is acceptable with God for man to eat, because it was God who made all things. As stated earlier in:

Rom 14:2-3
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

And yet again in:
1 Tim 4:3-5
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

The Old and New Testaments agree that both vegetables and meat are to be eaten, and neither of them is better than the other as long as it is sanctified by the Word of God and Prayer.

Romans 14 comes close to supporting a Vegan view, but even it clearly degrades such view. First it says such persons are "weak", possibly through sickness as well as intellectually speaking, and then it says that the meat eater is the "one of God". The other verses however make clear that eating meat "should not" be "refused". Meaning we ARE to eat meat.

Here's a test.....

For six months I'll go to a normal hunter/gatherer lifestyle, while you must adhere to a strict gatherer diet. No usage of modern genetically engineered fruits and veggies either. You must subsist on native grasses, trees, nuts (acorns mostly), and native fruits. Such as wild grape, crabapple, cattatails, and fiddle-head ferns, whatever is native to your area.

And we'll see who's healthier in 6 months.
The human body simply wasn't designed to digest native vegitations like animals do, but we were designed to digest meat and certain types of vegitations.

Also, here's some more info I came across.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... -by-nature" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bottom line.... The scriptures are CLEAR that we are to EAT BOTH.... and that abstaining from eating meat is NOT OF GOD.

Food for thought.... haa haa

[Obiwan]

BTW... It's not simply "my view". It's God's Commands... And you willfully go against them.

[dconrad000]

As earlier referenced, a great many verses in the Bible have become corrupted and are not correct...whereby a great many to stumble. (1 Neph 13:21-29)

The following scriptures are directly from God to the prophet Joseph Smith. I know they are correct. They are simple and very plain. They stand on their own with no special interpretation necessary. They are so simple and plain that a typical four-year-old can easily understand them. A typical four-year-old would also believe them. To get any other meaning other than what the very plain and simple and precise words say, one would have to bend and twist the words and phrases all around...as you have attempted to do repeatedly, above.

I believe and trust God. I do not believe nor trust you.

Here are the verses, as referenced earlier. As when referenced before, no fancy interpretations or explanations are necessary. They stand on their own. This is precisely what God really has said on this issue, in very plain and simple language. The reader should feel free to look them up for themselves in their own scriptures, and read as much of the surrounding scriptures that they might feel to be necessary to ensure their full context.

JST Gen 9:11 “And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.”

D&C 49:21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

D&C 89:15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

I believe God's own words. I trust God. I have never been in a time of famine or excess of hunger in my entire life. There is no such thing as a nutritional-animal-product-deficiency...no supplementation is necessary. My entire family's spectacular health, strength, vigor and energy are a testament to that; together with Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego -- whose exceptional health was also a testament to that fact in their day.


.

[creator]

On the whole eating meat thing... seems you have overlooked what the Lord said in D&C 89 after asking that meat only be used sparingly...

"Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

So it's pleasing unto the Lord that we not eat meat, except in times of winter/cold/famine.

And if there is confusion about what exactly that means, Joseph Smith and others helped clear it up... Joseph Smith taught on several occasions the idea of only eating meat to save your life (i.e. when other food wasn't available).

Here's just one source of multiple:

In pitching my tent we found three massasaugas or prairie rattlesnakes, which the brethren were about to kill, but I said, "Let them alone -- don't hurt them! How will the serpent ever lose its venom, while the servants of God possess the same disposition, and continue to make war upon it? Men must become harmless before the brute creation, and when men lose their vicious dispositions and cease to destroy the animal race, the lion and the lamb can dwell together, and the sucking child can play with the serpent in safety." The brethren took the serpents carefully on sticks and carried them across the creek. I exhorted the brethren not to kill a serpent, bird, or an animal of any kind during our journey unless it became necessary in order to preserve ourselves from hunger. (May 26, 1834.) D.H.C. 2:71.

I'm not vegetarian or vegan, but I thought I should at least contribute some statements from modern prophets on this topic.

[7cylon7]

Proof the vegetarians are not all what it is cracked up to be. Truly tragic.

[dconrad000]

Proof the vegetarians are not all what it is cracked up to be. Truly tragic.

7cyclon7, is it possible that you draw that conclusion from the first post only, without having read the rest of the thread? From my perspective, limited, scant, one-sided info does not proof make...which is all that is provided on the case. I provided information on the first page about our own personal case which very clearly illustrates that point.

[keeprunning]

JST Gen 9:11 “And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.”

D&C 49:21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

D&C 89:15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

.

IMO, those mean what they say. They don't say to not eat it ever. They say do not kill animals unless you need them for food. Don't go around killing life just for fun. Do it to save your life (self defense) or for when you need food to feed your family.

Sparingly not only means that we should just eat a small amount, but also means that we should not just eat the muscle meats and then throw the rest away. Making stocks and broths from the skin, cartilage, and bones extends more very valuble nutrients and soothing gelatin. We should not discard organ meats either, especially in times of famine. Those organs will provide essential nutrients that will be difficult to obtain elsewhere.

We need to work at being more self-reliant physically. We should ideally be healthy enough to be able to handle all good, wholesome foods. If our bodies are so unhealthy that we will get ill if we consume dairy, meat, grains, or beans, then we should be working to overcome that weakness.

[Obiwan]

On the whole eating meat thing... seems you have overlooked what the Lord said in D&C 89 after asking that meat only be used sparingly...

"Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

So it's pleasing unto the Lord that we not eat meat, except in times of winter/cold/famine.

I would recommend you read what I've wrote on this in my posts above. Your interpretation is false.
To give you a brief "overview", the usage of the word "not" is Old English.... It's the using of a negative word to describe a positive. If the intent was to "ban" the eating of those things ONLY in Winter, etc., then the verse would have been written like verse 15, and the word "not" wouldn't have been included. As well, given the historical events at the time, such as with the Shakers, it's clear that the verse wasn't banning the eating of meat.

And if there is confusion about what exactly that means, Joseph Smith and others helped clear it up... Joseph Smith taught on several occasions the idea of only eating meat to save your life (i.e. when other food wasn't available).

Here's just one source of multiple:

In pitching my tent we found three massasaugas or prairie rattlesnakes, which the brethren were about to kill, but I said, "Let them alone -- don't hurt them! How will the serpent ever lose its venom, while the servants of God possess the same disposition, and continue to make war upon it? Men must become harmless before the brute creation, and when men lose their vicious dispositions and cease to destroy the animal race, the lion and the lamb can dwell together, and the sucking child can play with the serpent in safety." The brethren took the serpents carefully on sticks and carried them across the creek. I exhorted the brethren not to kill a serpent, bird, or an animal of any kind during our journey unless it became necessary in order to preserve ourselves from hunger. (May 26, 1834.) D.H.C. 2:71.

Your quote from history also doesn't mean what you think it means, you are also misinterpreting it.
First Joseph was teaching them to not kill wantingly, thus unnecessarily. Second, they were "wild" creatures, and if you read the Word of Wisdom, it is "Wild" creatures that should ONLY be eaten during winter, famine, etc. Third, you ignore the fact that Joseph and the rest of the Saints were STILL eating MEAT at the time. They ate cow, dear, etc. Thus, you are misusing this quote from history using it to try and support your position, when the full facts tell a different story.

I'm not vegetarian or vegan, but I thought I should at least contribute some statements from modern prophets on this topic.

Thank you, but you are in error.... Thus you are only adding to the confusion.

Bottom line, the command is to eat meat sparringly, and those who forbide it are not of God. That's the bottom line with all the facts. Personal "feelings" that go contrary to these facts, the Word of God, are just that contrary. Even the prophets have sometimes had a personal opinion. When we look at their words, we must weigh them against all the facts. The Bible scriptures aren't corrupt, the D&C scriptures aren't corrupt, the words of the modern Prophets aren't corrupt, etc. All three of these teach that meat IS to be eaten. People can't say the Bible is corrupt unless you actually know it is by showing SOME EVIDENCE of it. It should be noted that most of the corruption that is in the Bible is actually "private interpretation" by the various religions and missing and slightly changed scripture. I don't know of ANY evidence which shows these particular scriptures as "corrupt" do you all? Further, since the Bible conforms to all the other sources and facts, it's clear it is not corrupt, but those who are embracing this New Age ideology and religion that is Veganism or not accurately interpreting things.

[Obiwan]

As earlier referenced, a great many verses in the Bible have become corrupted and are not correct...whereby a great many to stumble. (1 Neph 13:21-29)

And as I say above.... Prove it.

The following scriptures are directly from God to the prophet Joseph Smith. I know they are correct. They are simple and very plain. They stand on their own with no special interpretation necessary. They are so simple and plain that a typical four-year-old can easily understand them. A typical four-year-old would also believe them. To get any other meaning other than what the very plain and simple and precise words say, one would have to bend and twist the words and phrases all around...as you have attempted to do repeatedly, above.

They do indeed stand on their own, but YOU are perverting them and their intent to suit YOUR OWN ideology.
You are doing the same thing anti-mormons and Christians of other religions do when they interpret various things of the Bible incorrectly and also try to condemn LDS with them.

I believe and trust God. I do not believe nor trust you.

If you believed God, you would follow the Word, not your own interpretations by the ignoring of facts.

Here are the verses, as referenced earlier. As when referenced before, no fancy interpretations or explanations are necessary. They stand on their own. This is precisely what God really has said on this issue, in very plain and simple language. The reader should feel free to look them up for themselves in their own scriptures, and read as much of the surrounding scriptures that they might feel to be necessary to ensure their full context.

You are very "dismissive" to facts and truth. You should be concerned by that.

JST Gen 9:11 “And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.”

Yes, the blood of every beast shall be on us. God is telling us not to WASTE meat.
You are "adding" to the scripture, trying to say it is saying things it doesn't say or imply. You are doing exactly the same thing as Christians do when they try to say "God is Only Spirit" by that verse that say's God is a spirit or is spirit. The original language we know that it's supposed to say God is spirit. That's not saying God is ONLY spirit. Further, other scriptures make show the similar language when referring to man, etc. Thus, it's a false interpretation to say God is ONLY spirit.

This is a good example.... Because you belittle further facts and understanding as "fancy interpretations"... Not realizing that the FULL FACTS of things are "paramount" to an accurate and truthful understanding of some subjects. Without the LDS "fancy interpretation" we wouldn't be able to show Christian interpretation false, at least from a Biblical and historical view.

D&C 49:21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

Again, as I said above, nothing to do with your claim. This verse talks about "wasting" flesh unneedingly.

D&C 89:15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

And, you take scripture out of it's context just like anti-mormons do in order to make your point.
The verse prior to this verse is specifically talking about Wild Animals and other "creeping" things. Regular meat is ALREADY talked about in prior verses, and they say they are to be eaten "sparingly". Thus, you are embracing a "private" interpretation, one not actually from God as you claim.

I believe God's own words. I trust God. I have never been in a time of famine or excess of hunger in my entire life. There is no such thing as a nutritional-animal-product-deficiency...no supplementation is necessary. My entire family's spectacular health, strength, vigor and energy are a testament to that; together with Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego -- whose exceptional health was also a testament to that fact in their day.

You are not believing God's own words, you are believing your own perverted interpretation over what the words actually say.
How can you even say that, that there is "no such thing as an animal product nutritian deficiency"??? This entire thread was above an example of such a thing. You are living in serious denial, just like anti-mormons do. So invested in your ideology about a thing, you completely ignore the necessary facts which would change an objective persons view.

You also pervert the story of the above four faithful of God. First, you are a hypocrite..... after all why isn't that story "false" like apparently everything else in the Bible per your view? Second, the Kings food was obviously unhealthy, glutonous food. Obviously, they did a system cleansing on themselves, that there action was a form of a "Fast". Nothing wrong with that. But that is far different from living life as a Vegan. You are again applying your own ideology on a story that says nothing about such.

No-one is denying benefits of a body cleansing.... No-one is denying the benefits of eathing healthier.... None of these things say one should be a Vegan, especially God saying it. Even more, God has specially said NOT to be a Vegan, and he's specifically said that meat is to be eaten sparingly. You aren't trusting God, you're leaning upon your own judgment and calling it God. I've shown clearly why your judgments are flawed, are not of God. So, who is really leaning upon God? Your feelings are not "God" anymore than anti-mormon feelings about Mormonism and their own theology is "of God". Truth is the Truth.... Not feelings. Feelings should be based on truth and facts, the FULL EVIDENCES, not the ignoring and ommision of facts and truth like you are doing by calling and dismissing them as "fancy explainations". Most people who don't have your ideology can clearly see the standard LDS view on these scriptures, without needing "fancy explainations". Thus, your claim that a 4 year old sees the same as you is also flawed. Only a 4 year old that doesn't pay attention to the details makes such a view, just as you have done. Not surprising a 4 year old would think the same as you.... They after all don't have the intellectual skills yet, and also just follow along with whatever you teach them it says.

[dconrad000]

As I've said all along, you go ahead and eat meat if you want -- whenever you want. However, you are out of order for forbidding me to abstain (that man should not eat the same). You are also out of order for forbidding Daniel, Shadrach Meshach and Abednego to abstain. You go ahead and use your definition of sparingly, which is totally subjective and can be whatever you decide for it to be. I will use the definition of sparingly which the Lord was kind enough to give those with ears to hear...because without His definition -- the word sparingly is meaningless -- because it means whatever a person of themself, designates it to mean, and they use it to their detriment. You ask just about anybody in the Church if they think they are consuming animal products sparingly, and most of them will tell you yes...because they are, according to their own definition, which is subjective...and a very high and alarming percentage are succombing to the Destroying Angel of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, auto-immune disorders, endocrinological disorders, neurological disorders, arthritis, osteoporosis...and the list goes on, and on...and these are people who many of them have never smoked, drank alcohol, coffee or tea, or done "recreational" drugs in their entire lives. On the other hand, those enumerated diseases, and many others -- are extremely rare amongst those who choose to abstain from all animal products, except in times of famine or excess of hunger. The wonderful and marvelous Promise of the Word of Wisdom is real -- especially for those who choose to live it according to the Lord's definition of sparingly -- not their own.

[creator]

I trust the "opinions" and "interpretations" of the Lord's prophets over that of others...

Brigham Young, President of the Church, 6 April 1868"

A thorough reformation is needed in regard to our eating and drinking, and on this point I will freely express myself, and shall be glad if the people will hear, believe and obey. If the people were willing to receive the true knowledge from heaven in regard to their diet they would cease eating swine’s flesh. I know this as well as Moses knew it, and without putting it in a code of commandments. [“Necessity of Obeying Counsel—Reformation in Eating and Drinking—Improvements—Female Relief Societies—Chastity,” reported by G. D. Watt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 12 (Liverpool: Albert Carrington, 1869), p. 192.]

Brigham Young, President of the Church, 19 July 1877:

Swine’s flesh . . . is more susceptible of diseases than any other flesh that we eat. It is not like fish or fowl. It is susceptible of disease of every kind, and will impregnate the system with disease far quicker than any other food that we eat. [“Relief Societies—Talk to Mothers—Improvement Societies—Domestic Matters—Training Children—Home Production—Silk Interests,” reported by James Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol. 19 (Liverpool: William Budge, 1878), p. 67.]

George Q. Cannon of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, 7 April 1868:

We are told that swine’s flesh is not good, and that we should dispense with it; and we are told that flesh of any kind is not suitable to man in the summer time, and ought to be eaten sparingly in the winter. [“Word of Wisdom—Fish Culture—Dietetics,” reported by David W. Evans, Journal of Discourses, vol. 12 (Liverpool: Albert Carrington, 1869), pp. 221–22.]

Son-in-law of George Albert Smith, President of the Church

In the summer, he [President Smith] eats no meat, and even in the winter months he eats very little. [in Gerald E. Jones, PhD Dissertation entitled Concern for Animals as Manifest in Five American Churches: Bible Christian, Shaker, Latter-day Saint, Christian Scientist, and Seventh-Day Adventist (Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University, 1972), p. 111.]

Heber J. Grant, President of the Church, 1 October 1937

It is no hardship to me to eat meat sparingly. I lived for several years, during the winter time, in the Utah Hotel and I am sure that not more than ten or a dozen times did I order meat, and then it was some small lamb chops; no pork, no turkey, no chicken, no veal of any kind did I ever eat during that time at the cafeteria. [in Conference Report, October 1937, p. 14.]

Heber J. Grant, President of the Church, 4 April 1937

I think that another reason why I have very splendid strength for an old man is that during the years we have had a cafeteria in the Utah Hotel, I have not, with the exception of not more than a dozen times, ordered meat of any kind. On these special occasions I have mentioned I have perhaps had a small, tender lamb chop. I have endeavored to live the Word of Wisdom, and that, in my opinion, is one reason for my good health. [in Conference Report, April 1937, p. 15.]

Lorenzo Snow, President of the Quorum of the Twelve, 11 March 1897

[President Lorenzo Snow] introduced the subject of the Word of Wisdom, expressing the opinion that it was violated as much or more in the improper use of meat as in other things, and thought the time was near at hand when the Latter-day Saints should be taught to refrain from meat eating and the shedding of animal blood. [in Journal History of the Church, 11 March 1897, LDS Archives; see also Leonard J. Arrington, “An Economic Interpretation of the ‘Word of Wisdom,’ ” Brigham Young University Studies, vol. 1, no. 1 (Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, Winter 1959), p. 47.]

Jessie E. Smith, Wife of Joseph Fielding Smith, President of the Church

My husband doesn’t eat meat [but rather] lots of fruit and vegetables. [in Gerald E. Jones, PhD Dissertation entitled Concern for Animals as Manifest in Five American Churches: Bible Christian, Shaker, Latter-day Saint, Christian Scientist, and Seventh-Day Adventist (Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University, 1972), p. 118.]

John A. Widstoe of the Quorum of the Twelve, 1937

It was shown early in the history of plant science, but after the Word of Wisdom was received, that plants contained all of the necessary food substances: Proteins (flesh-formers), fats, starches and other carbohydrates, minerals and water. . . .

The great Builder of the earth provided well for the physical needs of His children. Countless varieties of edible plants, vegetables, cereals, fruits and nuts are yielded by Mother Nature for man’s daily food. . . .

Modern research has shown as already indicated that all of the necessary food constituents are found in plants. From that point of view, vegetarianism should be practicable. . . .

The Word of Wisdom does not contain a prohibition against meat eating, but urges its sparing use. Unfortunately, this advice is not generally observed, and man’s health suffers in consequence. [The Word of Wisdom: A Modern Interpretation (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1937), pp. 126, 128, 135, 218; emphasis added.]

Brigham Young, President of the Church, 19 July 1877

Mothers, keep the children from eating meat. . . .

Now, sisters, will you take notice, and instruct those who are not here today, to adopt this rule—stop your children from eating meat, and especially fat meat. [“Relief Societies—Talk to Mothers—Improvement Societies—Domestic Matters—Training Children—Home Production—Silk Interests,” reported by James Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol. 19 (Liverpool: William Budge, 1878), pp. 67–68; spelling modernized.]

Joseph Fielding Smith, President of the Twelve, 30 Dec. 1966

This is my answer to you in relation to President Brigham Young's statement that mothers should not feed their small children meat. Yes! Small children do not need the flesh of animals. May I add also that adults would be better if they would refrain from too much eating of meat. As far as I am concerned the eating of meat should be very sparingly. In fact I will be contented if the Millennium was to be ushered in next week. When it is, we will learn that the eating of meat is not good for us. Why do we feel that we do not have a square meal unless it is based largely on meat. Let the dumb animals live. They enjoy life as well as we do.

In the beginning the Lord granted man the use of the flesh of certain animals. See Genesis 9:1-6, but with so many fruits of the soil and from the trees of the earth, why cannot man be content? Naturally in times of famine the flesh of animals was perhaps a necessity, but in my judgment when the Millennium reaches us, we will live above the need of killing dumb innocent animals and eating them. If we will take this stand in my judgment we may live longer. [In a letter to a member sister in El Paso, Texas, dated 30 Dec. 1966, quoted in Health Is A Blessing: A Guide to the Scriptural Laws of Good Health, by Steven H. Horne, advance publication copy (Springville, Utah: Nature’s Field, 1994), p. 34.]

Ezra Taft Benson, President of the Quorum of the Twelve, 4 March 1979

To a great extent we are physically what we eat. Most of us are acquainted with some of the prohibitions, such as no tea, coffee, tobacco, or alcohol. What need additional emphasis are the positive aspects—the need for vegetables, fruits, and grains, particularly wheat. In most cases, the closer these can be, when eaten, to their natural state—without overrefinement and processing—the healthier we will be. To a significant degree, we are an overfed and undernourished nation digging an early grave with our teeth, and lacking the energy that could be ours because we overindulge in junk foods. I am grateful to know that on this campus you can get apples from vending machines, that you have in your student center a fine salad bar, and that you produce an excellent loaf of natural whole-grain bread. Keep it up and keep progressing in that direction. We need a generation of young people who, as Daniel, eat in a more healthy manner than to fare on the “king's meat”—and whose countenances show it (see Daniel 1). [“In His Steps,” 1979 Devotional Speeches of the Year (Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1980), p. 62.]