I agree that the government has no right to charge the parents in the death of their child.
I do feel that people who follow a vegetarian or vegan life style are misguided. The scriptures clearly indicate that since the flood, man has been commanded to use meat in their diet. The D&C indicates that we have not been command to abstain from meet, only to eat is sparingly/wisely.
Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
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mes5464
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 29586
- Location: Seneca, South Carolina
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keeprunning
- captain of 100
- Posts: 757
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
It is sad. I'm sure the parents are punishing themselves enough, they don't need big brother to punish them more.
I hope the hardcore vegans will wake up to this. It's a big clue about how not natural a diet is if you have to supplement major missing nutrients. It's much more natural to just eat an egg, or a little piece of fish or dairy with a meal than taking big pills and powders!
I hope the hardcore vegans will wake up to this. It's a big clue about how not natural a diet is if you have to supplement major missing nutrients. It's much more natural to just eat an egg, or a little piece of fish or dairy with a meal than taking big pills and powders!
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dconrad000
- Captain of 1000
- Posts: 13738
- Location: Manti, Utah
- Contact:
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
B 12 and vitamin A levels are hyper-concentrated in the highly carnivorous societies of America and Western Europe and so relying on that kind of lab test data is deceptive.
Our family is a living testament to the fact that a balanced plant-based-diet totally devoid of any animal products, or vitamin supplementation what-so-ever is based upon true and correct natural principles of health. In twenty-plus years of marriage and five children, we have never had so much as an aspirin in the house, and you will not find a more healthy family than ours. You can see us if you like at our youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/dconrad000" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We have always been natural-health-oriented and have tried to live according to our understanding of healthful principles as our understanding evolved. We stopped eating meat about 11 years ago. We strictly went off all animal products 8 1/2 years ago. We don't use supplements. Our exceptionally good health cannot be attributed to genetics. On both sides of our family a great many family members are plagued by the usual health problems that are rampant in our society.
This paper on the subject might be of interest to some. I wrote it several months ago for another setting. I will share it here, now:
GOD IS SMARTER THAN MAN
David B Conrad
As is the case with any other issue, in matters of health, God is smarter than man – including the most gifted and educated of doctors and scientists.
When it comes to laws of Nature, you don't break the Law – you break yourself on the Law.
For those with ears to hear and eyes to see, God has shown the way.
JST Gen 9:11 “And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.”
D&C 49:21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.
God's definition of sparingly:
D&C 89:15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
God's promise to all those who keep the principles of the entire section 89, including verse 15:
And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones; And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge even hidden treasures; And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint. And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.
Here is just one example of a myriad of things that can go wrong when one seeks to place the wisdom of man; including doctors and scientists – above the wisdom of God, in these things.
Excerpts from the book, "Mormon Wisdom and Health" by Kenneth E. Johnson, M.D. – graduated from the Minnesota Medical School. With post-doctoral education he was certified by the American Board of Internal Medicine in 1954, and practiced in the subspecialty of Nephrology for 30 years in Phoenix, Arizona.
Osteoporosis: Our Love Affair With Meat, Eggs, and Milk
“Osteoporosis is perhaps the most misunderstood and serious medical problem you're likely to face [But nowadays cancer, heart disease, diabetes and auto-immune disorders have also become more & more rampant]. It has nothing to do with cholesterol or fat. And it's not prevented by drinking plenty of milk. Its sinister presence lies in the realm of protein metabolism – and its prevention lies in a plant-centered diet.
For me, the end of a love affair with meat, eggs and milk began while reading the chapter on Osteoporosis in Harrison's 1977 edition of Principles of Internal Medicine. Harrison stated that, another factor which some have implicated in bone loss is the possibility that excessive acid intake, particularly in the form of high-protein diets, results in "dissolution" of bone in an attempt to buffer the extra acid. 1
We now know that Harrison's succinctly stated theory is true; it's been documented by 20 years of scientific medical evidence. 2
Osteoporosis is the term used to describe a variety of diseases characterized by a reduction in the mass of bone to a level below that required for adequate mechanical support of the body.
Rarely, heredity disorders, an overactive thyroid, excess adrenal hormone, calcium and phosphorus disorders, and kidney disease can cause osteoporosis. Even caffeine, alcohol, smoking, and the phosphoric acids in soft drinks have some tendency to promote osteoporosis.
However, the common cause of this devastating disease is an improper diet and poor exercise.
Osteoporosis is common, widespread, debilitating, and expensive. It's estimated that more than 25 million Americans have osteoporosis, resulting in more than 1.3 million fractures each year, including 250,000 hip fractures. Half of all people with hip fractures require institutional care, and one in seven die shortly after the fracture from its complications. The annual cost of medical care associated with osteoporosis nationwide exceeds $10 billion.
The common form of osteoporosis is caused by the excessive loss of calcium. It is the result of long-standing ingestion of excess animal protein and lack of exercise. 1 Let me explain. Eating too much protein with its high amino acid content will load the body excessively with acids. The body, in order to maintain a critical level of acid-alkaline balance for thousands of orderly functions, must neutralize this excess acid, and does so by buffering (neutralizing) with calcium from the bones. But in this process, calcium is mobilized out of bone and excreted in the urine. It is a disease of calcium loss, not a calcium deficiency. As Harrison's book states, "There is no difference in the calcium intake of the osteoporotic compared with control subjects of similar age and sex." 2
A plant centered diet, with its high complex-carbohydrate content, its high fiber content, its minerals (adequate calcium) and vitamins and especially its low but essential protein content is necessary for the body and is the preventative diet against the misery of osteoporosis…
…While this disease is widespread in our affluent Western Society, osteoporosis is virtually nonexistent in billions of people in Africa and Asia where animal products are rarely eaten and milk products are virtually unknown. For example, the Chinese eat mainly rice, potatoes, beans, corn, wheat, barley, oats, fruit and vegetables. Their babies are breast fed and then weaned to this diet. The bones and teeth of children and adults are strong and healthy.
The average American eats 2-5 times as much protein as he or she needs. The daily protein intake of Americans is 90 -120 grams and represents about 25% of total calories. The ideal protein intake is 20 - 40 grams per day, representing about 10% of total calories. The World Health Organization recommends 37 grams of protein per day and good scientific evidence data shows that 20 grams will maintain positive nitrogen balance -- a measure of adequate protein. 1
We need to reduce our intake of protein. Knowing the cause of osteoporosis enables us to design a lifelong program of prevention centered on truths taught in the Word of Wisdom food plan.”
End of excerpt
Anyone who has an interest in this topic would be well served to watch two documentaries: The first is called “Earthlings” by Shaun Monson. It is something that everyone should see and illustrates how very far, we as a people have strayed from the principles outlined in JST Gen 9:11, D&C 49:21, and D&C 89:15. Just “Google” the word Earthlings and watch it online at no charge. If you are online now, here is the link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4130308142#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Another documentary everyone should see is “Foods That Kill”, by Michael Klaper, M.D. It contains very, very good information on the subject. He makes one statement towards the end that I don’t agree with…but it is not about food, it is more to do with geo-politics. Just “Google” the phrase Foods That Kill and watch it also online at no charge. If you are online now, here is the link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5867837730#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
_______________________________________________
...another excellent resource that I saw a while back on another thread on this forum:
The Word of Wisdom: the Forgotten Verses
A discussion of Latter-day Saint (LDS or Mormon) beliefs and vegetarian principles
by Jim Catano
http://www.vegsource.com/articles/catano.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
______________________________________________
...additional important info pertaining specifically to milk:
Paper by John McDougall, M.D.
http://www.notmilk.com/tudrmac.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Crohn's Disease and IBD (Inflammatory Bowel Disease)
http://www.notmilk.com/c.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Very important paper on the subject by Michael Greger, M.D.
http://www.notmilk.com/drgreger.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Our family is a living testament to the fact that a balanced plant-based-diet totally devoid of any animal products, or vitamin supplementation what-so-ever is based upon true and correct natural principles of health. In twenty-plus years of marriage and five children, we have never had so much as an aspirin in the house, and you will not find a more healthy family than ours. You can see us if you like at our youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/dconrad000" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We have always been natural-health-oriented and have tried to live according to our understanding of healthful principles as our understanding evolved. We stopped eating meat about 11 years ago. We strictly went off all animal products 8 1/2 years ago. We don't use supplements. Our exceptionally good health cannot be attributed to genetics. On both sides of our family a great many family members are plagued by the usual health problems that are rampant in our society.
This paper on the subject might be of interest to some. I wrote it several months ago for another setting. I will share it here, now:
GOD IS SMARTER THAN MAN
David B Conrad
As is the case with any other issue, in matters of health, God is smarter than man – including the most gifted and educated of doctors and scientists.
When it comes to laws of Nature, you don't break the Law – you break yourself on the Law.
For those with ears to hear and eyes to see, God has shown the way.
JST Gen 9:11 “And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.”
D&C 49:21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.
God's definition of sparingly:
D&C 89:15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
God's promise to all those who keep the principles of the entire section 89, including verse 15:
And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones; And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge even hidden treasures; And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint. And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.
Here is just one example of a myriad of things that can go wrong when one seeks to place the wisdom of man; including doctors and scientists – above the wisdom of God, in these things.
Excerpts from the book, "Mormon Wisdom and Health" by Kenneth E. Johnson, M.D. – graduated from the Minnesota Medical School. With post-doctoral education he was certified by the American Board of Internal Medicine in 1954, and practiced in the subspecialty of Nephrology for 30 years in Phoenix, Arizona.
Osteoporosis: Our Love Affair With Meat, Eggs, and Milk
“Osteoporosis is perhaps the most misunderstood and serious medical problem you're likely to face [But nowadays cancer, heart disease, diabetes and auto-immune disorders have also become more & more rampant]. It has nothing to do with cholesterol or fat. And it's not prevented by drinking plenty of milk. Its sinister presence lies in the realm of protein metabolism – and its prevention lies in a plant-centered diet.
For me, the end of a love affair with meat, eggs and milk began while reading the chapter on Osteoporosis in Harrison's 1977 edition of Principles of Internal Medicine. Harrison stated that, another factor which some have implicated in bone loss is the possibility that excessive acid intake, particularly in the form of high-protein diets, results in "dissolution" of bone in an attempt to buffer the extra acid. 1
We now know that Harrison's succinctly stated theory is true; it's been documented by 20 years of scientific medical evidence. 2
Osteoporosis is the term used to describe a variety of diseases characterized by a reduction in the mass of bone to a level below that required for adequate mechanical support of the body.
Rarely, heredity disorders, an overactive thyroid, excess adrenal hormone, calcium and phosphorus disorders, and kidney disease can cause osteoporosis. Even caffeine, alcohol, smoking, and the phosphoric acids in soft drinks have some tendency to promote osteoporosis.
However, the common cause of this devastating disease is an improper diet and poor exercise.
Osteoporosis is common, widespread, debilitating, and expensive. It's estimated that more than 25 million Americans have osteoporosis, resulting in more than 1.3 million fractures each year, including 250,000 hip fractures. Half of all people with hip fractures require institutional care, and one in seven die shortly after the fracture from its complications. The annual cost of medical care associated with osteoporosis nationwide exceeds $10 billion.
The common form of osteoporosis is caused by the excessive loss of calcium. It is the result of long-standing ingestion of excess animal protein and lack of exercise. 1 Let me explain. Eating too much protein with its high amino acid content will load the body excessively with acids. The body, in order to maintain a critical level of acid-alkaline balance for thousands of orderly functions, must neutralize this excess acid, and does so by buffering (neutralizing) with calcium from the bones. But in this process, calcium is mobilized out of bone and excreted in the urine. It is a disease of calcium loss, not a calcium deficiency. As Harrison's book states, "There is no difference in the calcium intake of the osteoporotic compared with control subjects of similar age and sex." 2
A plant centered diet, with its high complex-carbohydrate content, its high fiber content, its minerals (adequate calcium) and vitamins and especially its low but essential protein content is necessary for the body and is the preventative diet against the misery of osteoporosis…
…While this disease is widespread in our affluent Western Society, osteoporosis is virtually nonexistent in billions of people in Africa and Asia where animal products are rarely eaten and milk products are virtually unknown. For example, the Chinese eat mainly rice, potatoes, beans, corn, wheat, barley, oats, fruit and vegetables. Their babies are breast fed and then weaned to this diet. The bones and teeth of children and adults are strong and healthy.
The average American eats 2-5 times as much protein as he or she needs. The daily protein intake of Americans is 90 -120 grams and represents about 25% of total calories. The ideal protein intake is 20 - 40 grams per day, representing about 10% of total calories. The World Health Organization recommends 37 grams of protein per day and good scientific evidence data shows that 20 grams will maintain positive nitrogen balance -- a measure of adequate protein. 1
We need to reduce our intake of protein. Knowing the cause of osteoporosis enables us to design a lifelong program of prevention centered on truths taught in the Word of Wisdom food plan.”
End of excerpt
Anyone who has an interest in this topic would be well served to watch two documentaries: The first is called “Earthlings” by Shaun Monson. It is something that everyone should see and illustrates how very far, we as a people have strayed from the principles outlined in JST Gen 9:11, D&C 49:21, and D&C 89:15. Just “Google” the word Earthlings and watch it online at no charge. If you are online now, here is the link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4130308142#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Another documentary everyone should see is “Foods That Kill”, by Michael Klaper, M.D. It contains very, very good information on the subject. He makes one statement towards the end that I don’t agree with…but it is not about food, it is more to do with geo-politics. Just “Google” the phrase Foods That Kill and watch it also online at no charge. If you are online now, here is the link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5867837730#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
_______________________________________________
...another excellent resource that I saw a while back on another thread on this forum:
The Word of Wisdom: the Forgotten Verses
A discussion of Latter-day Saint (LDS or Mormon) beliefs and vegetarian principles
by Jim Catano
http://www.vegsource.com/articles/catano.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
______________________________________________
...additional important info pertaining specifically to milk:
Paper by John McDougall, M.D.
http://www.notmilk.com/tudrmac.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Crohn's Disease and IBD (Inflammatory Bowel Disease)
http://www.notmilk.com/c.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Very important paper on the subject by Michael Greger, M.D.
http://www.notmilk.com/drgreger.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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keeprunning
- captain of 100
- Posts: 757
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
Sorry, I just think it is wrong to spread the strict veg'n propaganda. Strict vegetarianism, let alone veganism is nowhere to be found in the word of wisdom. Sometimes it takes more faith to take a more balanced approach. But who is to say those strict ones wouldn't be even more healthier (especially their offspring) if they would just include even a tiny amount of any type of animal based foods?
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dconrad000
- Captain of 1000
- Posts: 13738
- Location: Manti, Utah
- Contact:
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think propaganda disseminated about needing animal products or supplements for good health is a disservice. I say let people study both sides of the issue for themselves if they so desire, and then make choices that they feel inspired to make for what they feel will be best for the health and wellness of themselves and their families.
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keeprunning
- captain of 100
- Posts: 757
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
I've studied both sides for the past 12 years. I'm convinced it's a waste of time. They are both too extreme. Just follow the word of wisdom and eat natural, homemade, real foods.
I thought you raised goats and drank their milk in the form of kefir? Or am I thinking of someone else?
I thought you raised goats and drank their milk in the form of kefir? Or am I thinking of someone else?
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dconrad000
- Captain of 1000
- Posts: 13738
- Location: Manti, Utah
- Contact:
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
keeprunning wrote:I've studied both sides for the past 12 years. I'm convinced it's a waste of time. They are both too extreme. Just follow the word of wisdom and eat natural, homemade, real foods.
I'm perfectly fine with you living as you have chosen to do. I choose to follow the Word of Wisdom to the best of my ability, including verse 15...and I have absolute and total confidence in the marvelous promise at the end.
I thought you raised goats and drank their milk in the form of kefir? Or am I thinking of someone else?
...no I do not...although in my formative years, I did my share of cow and goat milking on the ranch in Southern Alberta where I grew up.
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keeprunning
- captain of 100
- Posts: 757
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
Yeah, we don't know each other's health or diets here, I'm just trying to speak in generals. I thought I remembered you posting about kefir, so I was surprised when you said you had eaten vegan for the past few years.
My stance is not eating lots of meats and dairy, etc. too much is bad for you. That doesn't mean that eating absolutely zero is better for our temporal bodies than eating a little. I think verse 15 is only talking about wild animals. No need to lump every animal product in with it, including honey, eggs, milk, and seafoods.
My stance is not eating lots of meats and dairy, etc. too much is bad for you. That doesn't mean that eating absolutely zero is better for our temporal bodies than eating a little. I think verse 15 is only talking about wild animals. No need to lump every animal product in with it, including honey, eggs, milk, and seafoods.
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dconrad000
- Captain of 1000
- Posts: 13738
- Location: Manti, Utah
- Contact:
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
keeprunning wrote:Yeah, we don't know each other's health or diets here, I'm just trying to speak in generals. I thought I remembered you posting about kefir (you have me mixed up with someone else), so I was surprised when you said you had eaten vegan for the past few years.
...more than a few years...
My stance is not eating lots of meats and dairy, etc. too much is bad for you. That doesn't mean that eating absolutely zero is better for our temporal bodies than eating a little. I think verse 15 is only talking about wild animals. No need to lump every animal product in with it, including honey, eggs, milk, and seafoods.
I'm perfectly fine with you taking that stance, but we'll have to agree to disagree.
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dconrad000
- Captain of 1000
- Posts: 13738
- Location: Manti, Utah
- Contact:
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
I will add that I feel very strongly that the lifestyle choices with regard to health that we have made are correct. A few years back my wife and I were in court upon occasion, threatened with jail time for not backing down on the issue. Acting as our own defense, we stood up for what we knew was right, placed our trust in God -- and were delivered from the situation. I bring this up, because this is as good of a place as any, for people to become familiar with an important issue that might pertain to them or some of their loved ones -- an issue related to carbon monoxide poisoning and an egregious design flaw in a great many manufactured homes.
Here are a couple of links to more info about that:
...a guest appearance on a national radio broadcast the day after, to discuss our victory in court...
http://s98822910.onlinehome.us/tom/TomR ... 81022a.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(It may take a couple of minutes for the audio file to download. You may wish to fast forward through the first 7 or 8 minutes of unrelated, preliminary talk.)
...a website with additional info...
http://www.danielinthelionsden.us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here are a couple of links to more info about that:
...a guest appearance on a national radio broadcast the day after, to discuss our victory in court...
http://s98822910.onlinehome.us/tom/TomR ... 81022a.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(It may take a couple of minutes for the audio file to download. You may wish to fast forward through the first 7 or 8 minutes of unrelated, preliminary talk.)
...a website with additional info...
http://www.danielinthelionsden.us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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ChelC
- The Law
- Posts: 5982
- Location: Utah
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
I don't know much about the case so I won't comment on it specifically, but isn't there a line somewhere? I remember a case a few years back - I'll have to dig it up, where the parents were clearly extreme with their veganism and their malnourished child died. It was a pretty cut and dried case of neglect in my opinion.
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ChelC
- The Law
- Posts: 5982
- Location: Utah
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
Okay, I remember, it was the Fink's. They thought their child was a prophet or something weird. They fed him only a vegan diet. It wasn't a healthy vegan diet obviously (I'm not suggesting a vegan diet is wrong or unhealthy...) but there is a point somewhere in there where neglect is clear.
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dconrad000
- Captain of 1000
- Posts: 13738
- Location: Manti, Utah
- Contact:
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
I agree with that statement. You may wish to do a whole lot more investigation before you make any further comments or attempt to draw comparisons which could include good, sensible plant-based diets versus those that are not. I recall a bizarre case from several years ago in Salt Lake, that involved a strange couple that were feeding their toddler lettuce only -- or some bizarre thing.ChelC wrote:I don't know much about the case...
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dconrad000
- Captain of 1000
- Posts: 13738
- Location: Manti, Utah
- Contact:
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
...yes, that name sounds familiar, we may be thinking about the same case...
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ChelC
- The Law
- Posts: 5982
- Location: Utah
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
You could actually read all of my comments... I didn't lash out at veganism anywhere in there so you don't need to get defensive. My comments merely suggested that YES I do believe there is a point in there somewhere where the line is crossed and parents are neglecting their child's health.
I just read up on the case a little and this baby was 11 or 12 pounds and almost a year old. Without knowing whether they did anything to help the child thrive I won't comment on them, but I do believe there is a line. I see comments about if the kid was fed McD's... etc... but I don't think this appears to be a case where they were attacked simply for being Vegan. They are under attack for watching their child's failure to thrive and allegedly doing nothing to prevent it.
I just read up on the case a little and this baby was 11 or 12 pounds and almost a year old. Without knowing whether they did anything to help the child thrive I won't comment on them, but I do believe there is a line. I see comments about if the kid was fed McD's... etc... but I don't think this appears to be a case where they were attacked simply for being Vegan. They are under attack for watching their child's failure to thrive and allegedly doing nothing to prevent it.
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dconrad000
- Captain of 1000
- Posts: 13738
- Location: Manti, Utah
- Contact:
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
Chels C, you posted your comment right after I had posted something about our personal case. To the reader it could easily have had the appearance that you were speaking about our case -- and then you used what I felt was a totally inappropriate comparison. (You have now clarified that you were talking about the case at the top of the thread...but there is not nearly enough info to use the Fink case as a comparison with that either. Yes there is such a thing as neglect, but there is not such a thing as an animal-product-deficiency...I feel very strongly about that.)
Last edited by dconrad000 on March 31st, 2011, 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dconrad000
- Captain of 1000
- Posts: 13738
- Location: Manti, Utah
- Contact:
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
I refuse to take a puff of a cigarette. Some would label that as extreme. I refuse to take a sip of coffee or beer. Some would label that as extreme. I refuse to consume any animal product unless I find myself to be in a time of famine or excess of hunger. Some would label that as extreme. I do not view any of those things as extreme. We keep verse 15 to the best of our ability and understanding, as we keep each and every other verse to the best of our ability and understanding. My family and I have been blessed with marvelous good health because we are living in accordance to what we feel is best, in living the entire section 89 -- every verse -- to the best of our ability according to what we feel is right. We have total faith and confidence in the marvelous promise given at the end.
We also feel that people need to be free to exercise their moral agency to choose what they feel is best for themselves and their families on this issue. Live and let live.
Most of our dear friends and relatives and people that we love do not see things as we do, nor live as we do on this issue. That's ok. We love and appreciate them anyways. A good many of them are plagued with many of the health issues that are rampant in our society, however...and a good many of them have never had a cigarette, or a sip of coffee or alcohol in their entire lives...but in alarming numbers, still are succuming to heart disease, cancer, diabetes, auto-immune disorders, allergies, arthritis, and the list goes on and on.
I've lost too many good, young friends to cancer...and even more older fiends. We lost Mary's relatively young mother to breast cancer several years ago. One out of 3 people get cancer now-a-days -- even amongst the Saints. These rampaging diseases I've just listed are extremely rare amongst people who consume no animal products. I know from years of personal experience that a soley-plant-based-diet can have a great many benefits for those who choose it. Live and let live.
We also feel that people need to be free to exercise their moral agency to choose what they feel is best for themselves and their families on this issue. Live and let live.
Most of our dear friends and relatives and people that we love do not see things as we do, nor live as we do on this issue. That's ok. We love and appreciate them anyways. A good many of them are plagued with many of the health issues that are rampant in our society, however...and a good many of them have never had a cigarette, or a sip of coffee or alcohol in their entire lives...but in alarming numbers, still are succuming to heart disease, cancer, diabetes, auto-immune disorders, allergies, arthritis, and the list goes on and on.
I've lost too many good, young friends to cancer...and even more older fiends. We lost Mary's relatively young mother to breast cancer several years ago. One out of 3 people get cancer now-a-days -- even amongst the Saints. These rampaging diseases I've just listed are extremely rare amongst people who consume no animal products. I know from years of personal experience that a soley-plant-based-diet can have a great many benefits for those who choose it. Live and let live.
Last edited by dconrad000 on March 31st, 2011, 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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loquaciousmomma
- captain of 100
- Posts: 743
Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
For what it's worth...
I gradually moved myself and my family toward a vegetarian diet several years ago, however the closer we became to being meatless the more strongly I felt that it wasn't right for our family.
We do not eat much meat even today. We usually eat it in things like spaghetti or tacos. It is only a rare occasion that we have burgers or any piece of meat.
Someone else made the comment that if a person has to supplement to thrive then maybe the diet isn't truly natural.
I think there is wisdom in that.
Meat is to be used sparingly. I think children need it to develop properly, however, even if only in small amounts. If not meat, than at least eggs, cheese, or fish.
What I wonder, though, is how this child slipped through the cracks. Did the parents take it to a doctor, or at least a chiropractor for checkups? Surely someone must have noticed that the child wasn't thriving.
I gradually moved myself and my family toward a vegetarian diet several years ago, however the closer we became to being meatless the more strongly I felt that it wasn't right for our family.
We do not eat much meat even today. We usually eat it in things like spaghetti or tacos. It is only a rare occasion that we have burgers or any piece of meat.
Someone else made the comment that if a person has to supplement to thrive then maybe the diet isn't truly natural.
I think there is wisdom in that.
Meat is to be used sparingly. I think children need it to develop properly, however, even if only in small amounts. If not meat, than at least eggs, cheese, or fish.
What I wonder, though, is how this child slipped through the cracks. Did the parents take it to a doctor, or at least a chiropractor for checkups? Surely someone must have noticed that the child wasn't thriving.
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dconrad000
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Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
Despite our differences in perspective, I don't have any problem with you holding the beliefs that you do -- and living according to those beliefs as you see fit, Loquaciousmomma...and that applies to all.loquaciousmomma wrote:
Meat is to be used sparingly.
Sparingly can be a very subjective term that people use to their detriment. I appreciate the Lord having given His definition of sparingly in verse 15, which is not subjective at all -- but very plain. That's where I prefer to hang my hat, on the definition.
I think children need it to develop properly, however, even if only in small amounts. If not meat, than at least eggs, cheese, or fish.
We'll have to agree to disagree there. Most people base that assumption on mis-information about protein (and other nutrients) which is addressed in my first post higher up and in the excellent documentation contained in the presentation, "Foods That Kill" by Michael Klaper, M.D. also referenced in that post.
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ndjili
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keeprunning
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Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
Yes you are free to live however you want, as are we. I'm not getting personal here. We're both just disputing what each other strongly believes is wrong information. I don't see the need to keep adding the disclaimer about 'letting others live as they believe.'
Again, I have to say that verse 15 is ONLY talking about meat of wild animals. Not ALL animal products.
A pure vegetarian diet certainly has it's place. When a person has eaten too much meat over a long period of time, it would be good for them to cut it all out completely for a time. But then after that time, go back to eating a diet with not too high a percentage of animal products.
There have been studies that have shown that even just adding a VERY small amount of animal protein to a plant-based meal can increase the protein and nutrient assimilation greatly. That does seem more in line to the word of wisdom to me.
Again, I have to say that verse 15 is ONLY talking about meat of wild animals. Not ALL animal products.
A pure vegetarian diet certainly has it's place. When a person has eaten too much meat over a long period of time, it would be good for them to cut it all out completely for a time. But then after that time, go back to eating a diet with not too high a percentage of animal products.
There have been studies that have shown that even just adding a VERY small amount of animal protein to a plant-based meal can increase the protein and nutrient assimilation greatly. That does seem more in line to the word of wisdom to me.
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ChelC
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Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
This is why I won't make up my mind on the specific case... I don't know if they ever took the baby in or took any measures to help the baby. It would have been obvious that the child wasn't developing properly. If the parents did nothing about it, I think they should be accountable for that. I don't know the details there. I disbelieve the hype of this being about their lifestyle. From what I read, the paramedics called the police because the baby was so obviously undernourished.loquaciousmomma wrote:What I wonder, though, is how this child slipped through the cracks. Did the parents take it to a doctor, or at least a chiropractor for checkups? Surely someone must have noticed that the child wasn't thriving.
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dconrad000
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Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
Someday when your pet lamb can talk, I am quite certain that he will disagree...as do I.keeprunning wrote:
Again, I have to say that verse 15 is ONLY talking about meat of wild animals. Not ALL animal products.
...but you do as you see fit...and I'll do the same...and eighty years from now let's compare notes to see whose family lived a more healthful life and was better protected from the coming plagues. I don't think anything but life-experiences are going to convince you on this issue...and I'm all right with that.
Last edited by dconrad000 on March 31st, 2011, 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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keeprunning
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loquaciousmomma
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Re: Parents charged in death of vitamin def. breastfed baby!
I actually base my belief on personal revelation for my own family.dconrad000 wrote:Despite our differences in perspective, I don't have any problem with you holding the beliefs that you do -- and living according to those beliefs as you see fit, Loquaciousmomma...and that applies to all.loquaciousmomma wrote:
Meat is to be used sparingly.
Sparingly can be a very subjective term that people use to their detriment. I appreciate the Lord having given His definition of sparingly in verse 15, which is not subjective at all -- but very plain. That's where I prefer to hang my hat, on the definition.
I think children need it to develop properly, however, even if only in small amounts. If not meat, than at least eggs, cheese, or fish.
We'll have to agree to disagree there. Most people base that assumption on mis-information about protein (and other nutrients) which is addressed in my first post higher up and in the excellent documentation contained in the presentation, "Foods That Kill" by Michael Klaper, M.D. also referenced in that post.
I cannot, therefore, assert my belief to others, as it was personal revelation.
I also have taken nutrition courses and am familiar with conventional thinking about health. Of course, I do not totally agree with everything the course asserted, but I would be foolish to reject everything that was taught.
I learned that the body is a complex organism that has specific needs at various junctures of development, protein in its various forms is essential at certain stages.
One thing to think about is the very strict health code that the Lord gave to Israel, he was very specific about what they could and could not eat. He did not forbid meats. He forbade certain meats, but not all, and certainly he did not prohibit milk or eggs.
I have participated in a few heated discussions about the word of wisdom and other scriptures that discuss meat, they are rarely productive.
Often people are very passionate about their position and it would take a complete turnaround in perspective to get them to change.
The bottom line is that we are each responsible for our own bodies and the health of those over whom we have stewardship. It is therefore up to us to learn as much as we can for ourselves so we can make informed decisions.
