A Stumblig Block For The USA Because Of Transgression

[freedomforall]

Can this happen to us today? Or has it happened already?

Mosiah 7:29
For behold, the Lord hath said: I will not succor my people in the day of their transgression; but I will hedge up their ways that they prosper not; and their doings shall be as a stumbling block before them.

There are good righteous people around us, but because of their complacency, lack of knowledge and action toward waking up to our aweful situation and warning their neighbor, could our doings become a stumbling block? Would God hedge up our way so we cannot prosper? In short, is the time for reestablishing good government...gone? We have been warned for years to wake up and do something.

Further, we read in Josh. 24:20
If ye forsake the Lord, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

2 Chr. 24:20
...Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the Lord, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the Lord, he hath also forsaken you.

Jer. 6:21
Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.

This country as a whole, because of wickedness, Godless people, immorality and apathy will we suffer, or are we suffering because of these things? Are the righteous on a large grill awaiting the burners to ignite?

Any insight?

[Vision]

I would have to say we are seeing this very thing happen to us as a Nation and a people.

[Original_Intent]

The Lord is educating us, not punishing us (yet).

Right now we are being told to put away our toys and go to school. The question is will we react with a tantrum, or with anticipation of what we are going to learn today? I know what the answer from most on this forum would be, I am far less sure how we will answer as a nation.

[Songbird]

Well, yes I think it is happening now. However, I think that those who continue to live righteously and attend to their duties will still receive blessings. It is unfortunate though, that those of us who live righteously will have to endure the trials brought upon others because of their wickedness. Balancing that out though is our level of obedience and doing those things we have been warned and counselled to do. While I may lose my 401 K because of poor management, I have stocked up food and done other things to preserve myself and my family. So, you see, it is key for us to remain obedient and all the other things that righteous people do. Then we will be worthy to receive those blessings; if however those blessings do not come and we suffer as everyone else does, hopefully, we can be assured by our righteousness that we are doing the best we can. I hope that makes sense.

[freedomforall]

I would have to say we are seeing this very thing happen to us as a Nation and a people.

Disheartening, indeed. But we must press on because God's righteous are numbered whoever and wherever they may be. In this lies our hope.

[freedomforall]

Well, yes I think it is happening now. However, I think that those who continue to live righteously and attend to their duties will still receive blessings. It is unfortunate though, that those of us who live righteously will have to endure the trials brought upon others because of their wickedness. Balancing that out though is our level of obedience and doing those things we have been warned and counselled to do. While I may lose my 401 K because of poor management, I have stocked up food and done other things to preserve myself and my family. So, you see, it is key for us to remain obedient and all the other things that righteous people do. Then we will be worthy to receive those blessings; if however those blessings do not come and we suffer as everyone else does, hopefully, we can be assured by our righteousness that we are doing the best we can. I hope that makes sense.

I agree.

[freedomforall]

The Lord is educating us, not punishing us (yet).

Right now we are being told to put away our toys and go to school. The question is will we react with a tantrum, or with anticipation of what we are going to learn today? I know what the answer from most on this forum would be, I am far less sure how we will answer as a nation.

As for a nation, it doesn't look good. Our righteousness is becoming a stumbling block to the wicked at heart, in many ways.

[Rincon]

Removed

[HeirofNumenor]

...and the coup de grace will be when the US Supreme Court declares gays have the right to marry, and then (later?) declares that religions MUST marry them in their churches and Temples.

[freedomforall]

Can this happen to us today? Or has it happened already?

Mosiah 7:29
For behold, the Lord hath said: I will not succor my people in the day of their transgression; but I will hedge up their ways that they prosper not; and their doings shall be as a stumbling block before them.

There are good righteous people around us, but because of their complacency, lack of knowledge and action toward waking up to our aweful situation and warning their neighbor, could our doings become a stumbling block? Would God hedge up our way so we cannot prosper? In short, is the time for reestablishing good government...gone? We have been warned for years to wake up and do something.

Further, we read in Josh. 24:20
If ye forsake the Lord, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

2 Chr. 24:20
...Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the Lord, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the Lord, he hath also forsaken you.

Jer. 6:21
Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.

This country as a whole, because of wickedness, Godless people, immorality and apathy will we suffer, or are we suffering because of these things? Are the righteous on a large grill awaiting the burners to ignite?

Any insight?

I think we, as a Nation crossed the line with Roe V. Wade. We legalized the murdering of God's children, and much of it is financed with tax money. So we all contributed to the death of over 50 million helpless children who wanted their turn on earth. I think that is when the Nation crossed the line. It's going to hit the fan now. I think the Lord will allow our enemies to thrash us good.

Excellent point.

[freedomforall]

...and the coup de grace will be when the US Supreme Court declares gays have the right to marry, and then (later?) declares that religions MUST marry them in their churches and Temples.

If this happens the First Presidency will have to go on the defense. I don't see how they would knuckle under to this type of sin and disgust. Just think how many bishops would step down because of refusing to perform gay marriages. And then to allow these people to adopt a child, come on!

I wonder what the Lord would do if the church were put in this position. I know we are to obey the laws of the land, but when the laws become a detriment to our religious beliefs, where does it end?

[Col. Flagg]

...and the coup de grace will be when the US Supreme Court declares gays have the right to marry, and then (later?) declares that religions MUST marry them in their churches and Temples.

If this happens the First Presidency will have to go on the defense. I don't see how they would knuckle under to this type of sin and disgust. Just think how many bishops would step down because of refusing to perform gay marriages. And then to allow these people to adopt a child, come on!

I wonder what the Lord would do if the church were put in this position. I know we are to obey the laws of the land, but when the laws become a detriment to our religious beliefs, where does it end?

Excellent question. Obviously, our church would never bend on allowing homosexuals to marry in the temple as this would be a serious transgression against the Lord and it would bring a wrath the church wants no part of. IMHO, if the U.S. Supreme Court ever ruled that our churches must allow homosexual marriages in its buildings (temples included), that would be the last straw and the line in the sand and our church would be forced to take on the feds at last. What would happen next is anyone's guess.

[EmmaLee]

...and the coup de grace will be when the US Supreme Court declares gays have the right to marry, and then (later?) declares that religions MUST marry them in their churches and Temples.

Just think how many bishops would step down because of refusing to perform gay marriages.

Funny you should mention that. Our Bishop (who is due to be released this summer) has literally gone gray worrying about this (he's 35), as the state we live in already has "legal" "gay marriage". I don't know what he'd do if two people of the same gender came to him asking him to "marry" them - or what the current state law says on the matter.

I wonder what the Lord would do if the church were put in this position. I know we are to obey the laws of the land, but when the laws become a detriment to our religious beliefs, where does it end?

Great question. And sadly, I think we'll find out the answer sooner rather than later.

[Original_Intent]

... I know we are to obey the laws of the land, but when the laws become a detriment to our religious beliefs, where does it end?

Understand the distinction between the laws of the land, legislation, and statutes.

Also understand the difference between the law of the land and the law of the sea (Admiralty law).

I'll admit I don;t understand the distinction as well as I should or well enough to explain it well to you. But I understand enough to know that it is sgnificant, and that it is crucial to a correct understanding of the 12th AoF.

[reese]

The Lord is educating us, not punishing us (yet).

Right now we are being told to put away our toys and go to school. The question is will we react with a tantrum, or with anticipation of what we are going to learn today? I know what the answer from most on this forum would be, I am far less sure how we will answer as a nation.

As for a nation, it doesn't look good. Our righteousness is becoming a stumbling block to the wicked at heart, in many ways.

I don't think its our righteousness that is the stumbling block, it is the Lord.

Nehpi quoting Isaiah
2Nephi 18:13-14
13Sanctify the Lord of Hosts himself, and let him be your fear, and let him be your awe.

14And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling, and for a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Sounds like both houses of Israel, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, ie. the Lord's people, need to be careful lest they stumble over their Lord.
I think we can expect the period of judgment that the Lord talks about in D&C 43:17-22(and other places) to come upon the nations of the earth---when the Lord's people begin to wallow in idolatry, and all the sins that accompany it. There is no precedent of the Lord's bringing a universal judgment until His own people wallow in wickedness. Their righteousness can stay such a judgment from the earth, but their transgressions become the catalyst of judgment when the balance tips in favor of wickedness. Hence the scripture, "upon my house shall it begin".
So if we are seeing judgments beginning to be poured out, we only need to look to ourselves and see if we are in need of repentance. The judgments will come. Our only hope is to repent and return to our Lord with full purpose of heart. Only then do we have any hope of escaping the destruction, not trials, but destruction.

[HeirofNumenor]

Once the US Supreme Court rules that Gays have the right to marry (and you KNOW they will declare that) - how long afterward will the govt/USSC also declare that churches must marry gays in their religious buildings? You KNOW the LDS Church will not allow that to happen, leading to court orders, and the Church locking the doors and it's assets/monies frozen by the USA gov't thus shutting the Church down world-wide, calling all missionaries home, and stopping all construction on new temples, and operation of those overseas. Only local leadership will be able to function, without funds or directions from Church HQ.

[Mosby]

How about the one million Iraqi's that we have killed over the last 10 years, that's not to mention the thousands in Afganistan...........

When you realize how many people we have killed for no real reason under the "stars and stripes" - and as Thomas Jefferson stated " God is just" - you understand that there will literally be hell to pay for our deeds as a nation.

[HeirofNumenor]

I see where you are coming from...yet in the case of these wars, most of the blame will be laid on the national leaders, insomuch as most Americans truly are ignorant of both the cost and the lies; whereas in the case of immorality....as a nation we ware willfully embracing it.

I mention the gay marriage issue for this reason as the culmination of immorality (bestiality and officially sanctioned child molestation is right around the corner after gay marriage - do you want God to intervene now, or after THOSE abominations become officially approved?). In the gay marriage example - the Supreme Court not only makes a mockery of marriage (originally sanctioned by God), but would order religions (including ours) to marry gays IN THE NAME OF GOD - completely the mockery. Demanding we do this in God's sacred temples ramps the offense up exponentially. Naturally we will refuse, leading to punishment, and the Church being shut down. Any national government with the power and audacity to order churches to marry gays will also have the power to outlaw those churches. Either the people will agree with the government, or else they will cower in fear, lest they be next.

As a similar example (a "what might have been" scenario) - in the year 2000, 3 residents of Belmont, MA (Mitt Romney's state - sorry Jandalee) were adamantly opposed to the Boston Temple. They filed a lawsuit to prevent the temple from being built. When completed, they still kept the lawsuit going. They filed for equity should they win. They didn't want money - THEY WANTED THE COURT TO ORDER THE COMPLETED TEMPLE TO BE DESTROYED. Under they laws of equity, they could have done so. Fortunately, the Appeals Court ruled that religious buildings trump zoning ordinances, and the US Supreme Court agreed - by refusing to hear the case. That signaled that he Church won. (Later, a federal judge ruled in a separate lawsuit against the Church and Boston Temple that a steeple is an integral part of churches, and it must also be allowed).

Now what if the Supreme Court had courageously heard the appeal, and found the guts to openly declare in today's modern secular climate that religions get special favors? No one on either side really wanted to tackle the issue, and put up with opposition from any direction.

Now what if they DID hear the case - and ruled against the Church, thereby granted the plaintiffs right to equity - AND RULED THAT THE TEMPLE MUST BE DESTROYED? Jackson County, MO was rendered DESOLATE during the Civil war due to the Union army pursuing Confederate rebels. The Carthage Grays Militia was decimated during the Mexican War, and SUPPOSEDLY those others in the mob who martyred Joseph and Hyrum died of worms and diseases eating their flesh.

While the abandoned Navuoo temple was used as a cattle barn, for drunken parties and supposedly for an orgy/bordello, and torched by an arson - ultimately the Lord sent a tornado to destroy the desecrated temple. Babylon & Rome utterly destroyed the Jerusalem temples (as well as the entire nation both times) because the people were so utterly wicked.

Can you imagine the Divine Wrath & Retribution that would be poured out upon THIS nation (the promised land reserved for the righteous and it's Founding Fathers raised up by God to create the Constitution "A Heavenly Banner" so that the Gospel could be restored) IF THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT TURNS AGAINST THE PEOPLE OF GOD And WILLFULLY DEMOLISHES AND DESTROYS A DEDICATED SACRED TEMPLE - THE HOUSE OF THE LORD? - Especially if a majority of citizens/voters demand gay marriage, and thus consent/assent to the Temples destruction?

Get me to Enoch's planet - or at least let me take the elven-ship to Valinor and the Undying Lands "Into the West". My homage to JRR Tolkien O:-)

[freedomforall]

Thanks for all these great comments. I am awed while reading so much in depth knowledge and information.

Along with others, I presume that this great nation is at the doors of being "Ripe in Iniquity." And we know from history what comes next.

Destruction and horror awaits us. It has a two-fold purpose. 1 Wickedness is a stumbling block for the righteous because it subjects them to the horrors of Socialism and all other kinds wrong doings. 2 It also, and this is the most important of the two, clears the path for future righteousness to prevail, and will be a stumbling block for the wicked.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

[AussieOi]

yeah yeah, thats it. God pulls up stumps and says thats it. Roe vs Wade. Clinton lying to congress.

Lets roll back the clock

Your country was built on

1) slaughtering the indigenous population to steal their fertile lands
2) enslaving negroes, to work the land
3) military conquest, to expand the empire

You murdered a million Phillipinos
You dropped not one, but 2 nuclear weapons in 2 Japanese cities
You slaughtered 3 million innocents in Vietnam, then Cambodia
You brought shock and awe to Iraq and terrorised millions and destroyed their country. Fallujah anyone
You have 40 millions live in defacto relationships
43million need vouchers to eat food
55million go to vegas each year to engage with prostitutes


But its poofs marrying that pushes it over the edge

Riiiiight.

[John Locke]

yeah yeah, thats it. God pulls up stumps and says thats it. Roe vs Wade. Clinton lying to congress.

Lets roll back the clock

Your country was built on

1) slaughtering the indigenous population to steal their fertile lands
2) enslaving negroes, to work the land
3) military conquest, to expand the empire

You murdered a million Phillipinos
You dropped not one, but 2 nuclear weapons in 2 Japanese cities
You slaughtered 3 million innocents in Vietnam, then Cambodia
You brought shock and awe to Iraq and terrorised millions and destroyed their country. Fallujah anyone
You have 40 millions live in defacto relationships
43million need vouchers to eat food
55million go to vegas each year to engage with prostitutes


But its poofs marrying that pushes it over the edge

Riiiiight.

And Australia we all know has been such a shinning star of morality and virtue! )

LOL Aussie you seriously have issues if you think our country was built on those 3 erroneous points. If your ignorance wasn't so hateful it would almost be funny.

[EmmaLee]

Lets roll back the clock Okay, let's...
Your country was built on

1) slaughtering the indigenous population to steal their fertile lands
2) enslaving negroes, to work the land
3) military conquest, to expand the empire

Your country, Australia, was built on

1) Slaughtering the indigenous population (the Aboriginal Australians) through disease (killing 60% of the Aboriginal population with smallpox alone) and conflict
2) The combined effects of disease, dispossession, and conflict saw a collapse of the Aboriginal population from thousands of people when the British arrived, to a few hundred by the 1830s - The most recent massacre of Aborigines was at Coniston in the Northern Territory in 1928
3) Penal colonies of British criminals, which were brought to Australia by the boatload full

You dropped not one, but 2 nuclear weapons in 2 Japanese cities - And you should be thanking us for that, as during WWII, Imperial Japan threatened Australia repeatedly (two Japanese subs shelled Sydney and Newcastle; Darwin was devastated by Japanese bombs, etc. etc.) - we of course, came to your aid, saved your butts - and this is the thanks we get (typical). John Curtin (your Prime Minister at the time) said, "The Australian Government regards the Pacific struggle as primarily one in which the United States and Australia must have the fullest say in the direction of the democracies' fighting plan. Without inhibitions of any kind, I make it clear that Australia looks to America." So, you're welcome.

You have 40 millions live in defacto relationships - And of course, all people in Australia are legally and lawfully wedded to the people they are having sex with...

43million need vouchers to eat food - And of course, no people in Australia use government welfare

55million go to vegas each year to engage with prostitutes - And of course, prostitution has been abolished in Australia... 8-| I love ya, Aussie, but methinks you need to work on that beam a bit...

[Jason]

Of course Australia isn't running around trying to rule the world and touting itself as the force de majeure for democracy and human rights....

[Jason]

Lets roll back the clock Okay, let's...
Your country was built on

1) slaughtering the indigenous population to steal their fertile lands
2) enslaving negroes, to work the land
3) military conquest, to expand the empire

Your country, Australia, was built on

1) Slaughtering the indigenous population (the Aboriginal Australians) through disease (killing 60% of the Aboriginal population with smallpox alone) and conflict
2) The combined effects of disease, dispossession, and conflict saw a collapse of the Aboriginal population from thousands of people when the British arrived, to a few hundred by the 1830s - The most recent massacre of Aborigines was at Coniston in the Northern Territory in 1928
3) Penal colonies of British criminals, which were brought to Australia by the boatload full

You dropped not one, but 2 nuclear weapons in 2 Japanese cities - And you should be thanking us for that, as during WWII, Imperial Japan threatened Australia repeatedly (two Japanese subs shelled Sydney and Newcastle; Darwin was devastated by Japanese bombs, etc. etc.) - we of course, came to your aid, saved your butts - and this is the thanks we get (typical). John Curtin (your Prime Minister at the time) said, "The Australian Government regards the Pacific struggle as primarily one in which the United States and Australia must have the fullest say in the direction of the democracies' fighting plan. Without inhibitions of any kind, I make it clear that Australia looks to America." So, you're welcome.

You have 40 millions live in defacto relationships - And of course, all people in Australia are legally and lawfully wedded to the people they are having sex with...

43million need vouchers to eat food - And of course, no people in Australia use government welfare

55million go to vegas each year to engage with prostitutes - And of course, prostitution has been abolished in Australia... 8-| I love ya, Aussie, but methinks you need to work on that beam a bit...

FYI - the nukes were just an added insult.....Japan was already surrendering! The firebombing had already burned out whatever resistance was left....

[Original_Intent]

Lets roll back the clock Okay, let's...
Your country was built on

1) slaughtering the indigenous population to steal their fertile lands
2) enslaving negroes, to work the land
3) military conquest, to expand the empire

Your country, Australia, was built on

1) Slaughtering the indigenous population (the Aboriginal Australians) through disease (killing 60% of the Aboriginal population with smallpox alone) and conflict
2) The combined effects of disease, dispossession, and conflict saw a collapse of the Aboriginal population from thousands of people when the British arrived, to a few hundred by the 1830s - The most recent massacre of Aborigines was at Coniston in the Northern Territory in 1928
3) Penal colonies of British criminals, which were brought to Australia by the boatload full

You dropped not one, but 2 nuclear weapons in 2 Japanese cities - And you should be thanking us for that, as during WWII, Imperial Japan threatened Australia repeatedly (two Japanese subs shelled Sydney and Newcastle; Darwin was devastated by Japanese bombs, etc. etc.) - we of course, came to your aid, saved your butts - and this is the thanks we get (typical). John Curtin (your Prime Minister at the time) said, "The Australian Government regards the Pacific struggle as primarily one in which the United States and Australia must have the fullest say in the direction of the democracies' fighting plan. Without inhibitions of any kind, I make it clear that Australia looks to America." So, you're welcome.

You have 40 millions live in defacto relationships - And of course, all people in Australia are legally and lawfully wedded to the people they are having sex with...

43million need vouchers to eat food - And of course, no people in Australia use government welfare

55million go to vegas each year to engage with prostitutes - And of course, prostitution has been abolished in Australia... 8-| I love ya, Aussie, but methinks you need to work on that beam a bit...

FYI - the nukes were just an added insult.....Japan was already surrendering! The firebombing had already burned out whatever resistance was left....

"Dantooine is far too remote to be an effective demonstration of the power of this battle station - but we will deal with your rebel friends soon enough."